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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:07:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 02/02/2006 09:09:49
Stealing a layout I saw on someone else's ship post, as the readability was amazing compared to the normal.
Punish - Bleeder design
Purpose: A 'bleeder' design ship is primarily meant to last longer than the target ship's capacitor or tank while dealing back moderate amounts of damage that slowly pick away at the target, bleeding the victim of both it's defence and capacitor. Primarily meant for engagements against cruiser-class ships and higher, it can tank multiple heavy missiles and still keep transversal velocity high enough to evade almost all cruiser-class gunfire, even while webbed. This can be extended to the bleeder design becoming the tackler due to it's capacitor-based defence. It's the setup that everyone hates me for because it seems impractical, but remains one of the toughest frigate setups for those that have tried it. 25% armor resistances across the board once you get frigate V ftw.
Highs:
2xMedium Pulse Laser I
1xDual-light Pulse Laser I
1xSmall Nosferatu I
Reasoning: The Medium pulses allow harder damage against the target in slower punches while the dual-light pulse allows faster, but lighter, damage. This combination has been balanced to allow minor versatility in engagements, the heavy damage being suitable for the armor repairers and the faster damage used against the shield tankers. Both have enough tracking to engage almost all ships, including drones, save for interceptors. The NOS is the key to keeping a continual flow of capacitor for your repairer and weaponry, as sustainability is key. Do not depend on it sucking your victim dry as it simply doesn't have the power do to so. Gamma S crystals for primary use as they do similar damage to multifrequencies but conserve additional capacitor. Multifrequency S crystals for slighty heavier damage when you are in an enagement that results in your capacitor not being a problem or for eliminating drones, Microwave S crystals for the pesky ranged tech 1 frigate who tries to move out of your initial pulse optimal. A 2k orbit is advisable to keep both weapon classes within optimal without going so close that you lose transversal velocity from your reduced orbit speed.
Mediums:
1x1mn Afterburner I
1xWarp Scrambler I
Reasoning: AB is used instead of MWD for capacitor concerns and powergrid difficulities. The punisher can commonly reach 570+m/s or higher (IIRC) with the afterburner and thus the closure of 15k to 7.5k takes only 12-13 seconds. Plenty of time while the larger ship notices you, decides if you are a threat, aligns for warp, and then finally leaves. Scrambler is obviousm, since the disruptor destroys the capacitor of frigates.
Lows:
1xSmall Armor Repairer I
3xCapacitor Power Relay I
Reasoning: The armor repairer itself is your primary focus of defence, with overwhealming capacitor in second. The idea behind this is to have everything on your ship running, sustainable, for as long as needed. The afterburner can push the edge, but disable that and the entire kit should remain sustainable for 24/7. This means continual repairing on your end (80 armor repaired every 4.5 seconds with t2 armor repairer and level 5 repair systems) to deflect the barrage of caracal heavy missiles or similar. The relays allow the complete sustainablity to allow your tanking to outlast the capacitor being used by your victims guns, shields, armor, and electronic warfare. Keep in mind that your low signature radius and speed will keep heavy missile damage (even cruise missiles, for a few volley's) in a tankable format unless pitted against an incredibly missile skilled pilot. The look of the Caracal pilots face as they sit there, helpless, remains pricess.
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:33:00 -
[2]
I think I read this setup first on eve-pirate.com
It seems to be a pretty cheap setup, mainly for noobs or starting pirates.
IMO the small nosferatu + 1 cap power relay is enough to keep a t2 small armor repper running. Use a 200mm plate and t2 medium pulses.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:39:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
I think I read this setup first on eve-pirate.com
Yes. I posted it there first. Quote:
It seems to be a pretty cheap setup, mainly for noobs or starting pirates.
hit the nail on the head Quote:
IMO the small nosferatu + 1 cap power relay is enough to keep a t2 small armor repper running. Use a 200mm plate and t2 medium pulses.
Simply can't sustain itself. The pulses drain the capacitor quickly, especially when coupled with an armor repairer. After continual testing I found that the punisher would lose capacitor far too quickly for longer engagements (such as a 6-7 minute fight against a caracal) and would thus fall to peices. The cap relays help negate the pulse capacitor usage (even with frigate 5) to keep the tank sustainable.
I've written an experimental setup that allows the 200mm plate, ability to break a medium nos, and still keep a sustainable tank here
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:42:00 -
[4]
You sure that it is not sustainable with 1 small nosferatu and 1 cap power relay? I cant believe that, how are your Capacitor skills? You need them at least at lvl 4.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tassi
You sure that it is not sustainable with 1 small nosferatu and 1 cap power relay? I cant believe that, how are your Capacitor skills? You need them at least at lvl 4.
Even at level 4 it wasn't trustworthy enough, especially against a medium nos. It ran out in the end, especially against a 24/7 tank when engaging caracal's.
You also need to seriously take into consideration that, as you mentioned before, that younger pilots will be flying it who do not have their cap skills to level 4. This covers both those who have it and yet still need the extra cap, and those who don't have it and still need the extra cap.
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Originally by: Tassi
You sure that it is not sustainable with 1 small nosferatu and 1 cap power relay? I cant believe that, how are your Capacitor skills? You need them at least at lvl 4.
Even at level 4 it wasn't trustworthy enough, especially against a medium nos. It ran out in the end, especially against a 24/7 tank when engaging caracal's.
You also need to seriously take into consideration that, as you mentioned before, that younger pilots will be flying it who do not have their cap skills to level 4. This covers both those who have it and yet still need the extra cap, and those who don't have it and still need the extra cap.
Aye, its indeed a very good setup for beginning pirates.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.02 09:57:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Aye, its indeed a very good setup for beginning pirates.
I don't appreciate that, so I think it's time for you to stop.
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Jarek Naumen
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Posted - 2006.02.06 00:38:00 -
[8]
Tried out something similar in last corporation frigate slaughter (duels) and it worked extremely well.
Only difference is named/t2 equip and i swapped the scrambler for a x5 Prototype Web and and replaced a cap relay with a named heatsink.
Needless to say i popped all my opponents. Some of them took a while to take down but i could tank them easily. 7 killmails :)
Finally got taken down when i tested it against Brutix. I would probably taken him down (or would've been stalemate) but once he got out his drones (with drone interfacing 5..duh) i was toast.
So conclusion...unless you're opponent has drones+good drone skills this baby can take on cruiser/BC easily.
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Kano Sekor
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Posted - 2006.02.10 23:02:00 -
[9]
How can you keep transversal velocity up while being webbed?
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Mikha'il Pelegius
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Posted - 2006.02.10 23:07:00 -
[10]
Transversal velocity isn't just about speed but also about the angle of engagement. Something moving incredibly fast but in an orbit far too tight is going to lose a great deal of transversal velocity due to the ship itself being forced to slown down greatly to compensate for the tight turning radius. This quicker ship can gain a faster transversal velocity by taking their orbit farther out.
A slower ship can gain a higher transversal velocity by remaining closer to the target in a tighter orbit, since their already slow speed isn't removed due to the turning radius. It's naturally slow speed (or a webbed ship) can easily handle the tighter turns without losing any further speed.
That difference is what allows certain ships, such as the punisher with it's very low signature radius, to still keep some transversal velocity.
Admiral Mikha'il Pelegius
CEO Genesis Navy, 21st fleet of the Imperial Navy
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2006.02.10 23:51:00 -
[11]
This ship goes 1k/s, tops. Webbed with a stock t1 webber, thats 250 m/s. Most cruisers go near that speed, which means since you dont have a webber of your own, they can just walk away from you and the transverse goes to nothing.
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Derailing threads with logic since 1992 |
Mikha'il Pelegius
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Posted - 2006.02.11 00:01:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Mikha''il Pelegius on 11/02/2006 00:03:41
Quote:
Most cruisers go near that speed, which means since you dont have a webber of your own, they can just walk away from you and the transverse goes to nothing.
If the cruiser warps away from a tech 1 frigate, I'm sure that's fine with most pilots. If a cruiser uses that time to get into optimal range then the frigate pilot can just leave. If the frigate pilot is also scrambled then there isn't anything you can do about it, but to get to this point requires the first two 'ifs' to happen.
And leave 'ifs' out of the threads. I've seen you do it far to often and am going to eventually reply to all of your posts with "If I have a dreadnought, three webifiers, an afterburner, a warp scrambler, two capital-class repairers, and five heavy drones, then I'm going to be able to break your tank."
"If's" are great, but if that is all you base your arguments on then you've got a lot of 'if'ing to do. Even if the tech 1 frigate gets destroyed, that's a very minor ISK dent and certainly not a huge loss. None of the frigates Malka posts seem to be uber, nor claimed as uber, but meant to fit a specific role. If someone can counter that role then, good fight to them. But basing arguments, again, on how many people are fit to specifically counter that (webbers are rare, fast cruisers that don't stay close and laugh at the frigate are rarer) isn't going to improve the thread any.
Admiral Mikha'il Pelegius
CEO Genesis Navy, 21st fleet of the Imperial Navy
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.02.11 00:04:00 -
[13]
try the quickfit tool - it has a capacitor simulator
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Sarmaul 4tw. 
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2006.02.11 01:05:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Blind Fear on 11/02/2006 01:06:24
Originally by: Mikha'il Pelegius
Edited by: Mikha''il Pelegius on 11/02/2006 00:03:41
Quote:
Most cruisers go near that speed, which means since you dont have a webber of your own, they can just walk away from you and the transverse goes to nothing.
If the cruiser warps away from a tech 1 frigate, I'm sure that's fine with most pilots. If a cruiser uses that time to get into optimal range then the frigate pilot can just leave. If the frigate pilot is also scrambled then there isn't anything you can do about it, but to get to this point requires the first two 'ifs' to happen.
And leave 'ifs' out of the threads. I've seen you do it far to often and am going to eventually reply to all of your posts with "If I have a dreadnought, three webifiers, an afterburner, a warp scrambler, two capital-class repairers, and five heavy drones, then I'm going to be able to break your tank."
"If's" are great, but if that is all you base your arguments on then you've got a lot of 'if'ing to do. Even if the tech 1 frigate gets destroyed, that's a very minor ISK dent and certainly not a huge loss. None of the frigates Malka posts seem to be uber, nor claimed as uber, but meant to fit a specific role. If someone can counter that role then, good fight to them. But basing arguments, again, on how many people are fit to specifically counter that (webbers are rare, fast cruisers that don't stay close and laugh at the frigate are rarer) isn't going to improve the thread any.
The role that they fit is killing noobs and morons. Thats a stupid role to be good at when you could just fit to be effective against smart people - then you get to kill noobs and morons as an added bonus. Hell, if you think that the cruiser pilot doing one of a half-dozen things he could to to easily kill you is 'iffy' then even you agree with me about what this role is.
I used to pirate. I know exactly how smart the average person in a low-sec empire belt is. Yet i still fit to go into a serious PvP situation, because it meant that I had no problems taking on the miners and NPCers, and could still go toe-to-toe with people who were actually capable of fighting.
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Derailing threads with logic since 1992 |
OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.02.11 01:26:00 -
[15]
Why did you post literally the same thing in this topic as you did in the other?
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2006.02.11 02:40:00 -
[16]
She's an alt. No worries.
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
Arishiku
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Posted - 2006.02.12 01:47:00 -
[17]
I would like to chime in with all my nubness and say that this ship/setup is amazing. Yes I am a nub, and I was having serious problems until I saw this thread and spent a day getting the secondary skills needed to run this set up. Since I have gotten it up and running its tanked everything I have come across like a champ. I am now solo running Lv 2 combat missions with little to no problems. Only change I have is that I use a cap booster in place of the warp scrambler as I dont have the skill for it yet and its not something thats supper useful hunting rats in .5+ sec space. And its gotten me outta some jams that are related to my low skills levels in most of the secondary skills used in this set up. As a side note my freinds who started a little ahead of me and sucked me in are in awe of this little guy as I am escourting them threw Lv2 combat ops while tanking stuff in my punisher that is tearing thier destoryers apart!
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Thier is no Honor but to Serve him,
Thier is no Glory but to Die in his Name!
Long live the Emperor! |
Michael Goddard
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Posted - 2006.02.12 05:09:00 -
[18]
If you think this setup is a tanking God, look into her experimental setup. Here
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Jaffse HuntST
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Posted - 2006.02.27 01:59:00 -
[19]
Hmm. Tried to run this setup through QuickFit, and with the following skills, the Punisher weren't able to sustain cap (w/o afterburner).
Amarr Frigate 4
Energy Management 4
Energy Systems Operation 4
Controlled Bursts 4
Repair Systems 2
According to QuickFit you need either Energy Management or Energy Systems Operation trained to level 5, which means this is hardly a fitting to recommend to new players.
Anyway, great setup. Used it for fun and loving around Eve for a while 
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.27 02:02:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 27/02/2006 02:02:43
Quote:
Hmm. Tried to run this setup through QuickFit,
Try it in real life. Not beintg sarcastic, just serious. The quick fit gives a semi-decent estimate of capability but it certainly doesn't do the reality of the situation justice.
The only reason I can tank caracal's with this is because of that capability to sustain the entire setup.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.27 02:05:00 -
[21]
"Hmm. Tried to run this setup through QuickFit, and with the following skills, the Punisher weren't able to sustain cap (w/o afterburner)."
Was it with the gamma crystal fitted? According to the original post, these are used instead of multifrequency crystals for the extra cap saving... 15% of difference in cap use just might be enough to keep things running.
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Jaffse HuntST
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Posted - 2006.02.27 12:30:00 -
[22]
Doh! Fitted a disruptor instead if a scrambler  .
Anyway, ran the test again and with far better results with almost no significant skills (again w/o afterburners, gamma crystals):
Amarr Frigate 3
Energy Systems Operation 3
Repair Systems 2
If you want the afterburner running, upgrade the Energy Management skill to lvl 2. If Repair Systems is trained to lvl 5, get Energy Systems Operation 4 and Energy Management 4 for sustained cap.
I know this isn't real life, but nearly gives an idea of what skills are needed for which fittings. I have tried this setup and it works like a charm.
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sgt spike
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:35:00 -
[23]
christ is this thread still going ... or is it a new one
guys its a canny setup but dont stick this ship together and think yer gonna be a pwn machine this setup is really only good against missile cruisers (or mining cruisers), and thats mainly because of the abII as it increases the speed (reducing missile damage) whilst keeping the sig size small (large sig radius = tons o damage from missiles).
this is not a good setup against cruisers toting guns or drones so beware of bull****
if you dont believe me check the ops kills on killboard.com
this isnt meant as a flame as the setup is a good idea, but as with all setups its horribly flawed against the wrong opponent
can you put a price on peace? |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.27 15:42:00 -
[24]
Quote:
this is not a good setup against cruisers toting guns or drones so beware of bull****
Strange, I can easily get under the guns of most cruisers and battle cruisers, even webbed. If double webbed, well then obviously that becomes a problem. Light and medium drones are easy for me to tank unless they come from a drone carrier, something I wouldn't engage anyway. Quote:
this isnt meant as a flame as the setup is a good idea, but as with all setups its horribly flawed against the wrong opponent
So you are reminding us that all ship setups have a weakness and this one is no different? Thanks Captain Obvious, now go do your civic duty and remind the damsel on the traintracks that the train's velocity is going to kill her.
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Ab Initio
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Posted - 2006.02.28 02:41:00 -
[25]
Was bored last night, and gave this setup a go against a whole group of my corp mates in 1vs1 fights.
Losses - 0
Wins - Ferox, Wolf, Caracel, 11 x T1 frig fights (Rifters, Punishers, Incurses and some Kessies).
Only difference to your setup was 3 x Medium Pulse. I honestly wouldn't believe it, had I not tried it.
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.28 04:11:00 -
[26]
Glad to hear it worked so well I have a slightly altered setup on the ship setups thread, experimental bleeder version of the punisher. Give that one a shot and let me know how it goes too?
The more first-hand experience I get from players, versus half-assed insults, the more I can improve upon this.
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sgt spike
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Posted - 2006.02.28 20:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: sgt spike on 28/02/2006 20:59:40
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Glad to hear it worked so well I have a slightly altered setup on the ship setups thread, experimental bleeder version of the punisher. Give that one a shot and let me know how it goes too?
The more first-hand experience I get from players, versus half-assed insults, the more I can improve upon this.
yet again i am pwned on the forums by malka ..... seriously i wasnt trying to flame i was trying to point out the flaws that are evident and say what the ship was good against as well as what it wasnt.
but really malka you would never (and i really mean that) get 'under my guns' in my cruiser, if you want to test that gimme a yell in game. believe me.
as far as pointing out the obvious... fair enough it may have been obvious to you but the odd newer player reads these forums looking for inspiration, and if you think a new player will set up that ship, go looking for a fight in lo sec and come up trumps then i think that despite what gets posted by your alts on this forum that you are sadly mistaken
the long and the short of it is that i do find this setup interesting and would like to see it work, but im not convinced
can you put a price on peace? |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.28 21:20:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 28/02/2006 21:21:12
Quote:
but really malka you would never (and i really mean that) get 'under my guns' in my cruiser, if you want to test that gimme a yell in game. believe me.
Like everyone else that has used this argument against me, I'll just copy and paste my responce (I have it saved in notepad). Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Why would I choose to engage a target that is specifically setup to counter the tactics I have listed on an immediate situation? Not only could you counter it with slight module alterations but your battle tactics would change specifically to eliminiate the tactical strengths of my ship. There would be no point nor realistic test involved.
Quote:
and if you think a new player will set up that ship, go looking for a fight in lo sec and come up trumps then i think that despite what gets posted by your alts on this forum that you are sadly mistaken
I get very, very many eve mails and convos about this ship setup and it has proven itself again and again and again. Would it work against someone who was specifically anti-frigate? No. Would it work against someone who knew ahead of time what the punisher was using? Most likely not. Does it work against the majority of EVE pilots? Yes.
And the times I post with my alts/mains are few and far inbetween. To insult me by saying I use alts to strengthen my posts by reporting how OMFGAWESOME the setup is one hell of an accusation, that you had better be able to support. I do have alts, but I keep them seperated primarily for RP concerns. Every so often a post slips and the alt shows, but again... to be used in the manner you describe is a disgusting accusation.
For the uninitiated, my alts are: Guardian Alpha, Mikha'il Pelegius, and omfghai2u.
You are are good guy, sgt, with decent piloting skills. Don't ruin that. And in regards to your last comment, I'm not here to convience you.
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sgt spike
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Posted - 2006.02.28 21:46:00 -
[29]
Edited by: sgt spike on 28/02/2006 21:46:17
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Why would I choose to engage a target that is specifically setup to counter the tactics I have listed on an immediate situation? Not only could you counter it with slight module alterations but your battle tactics would change specifically to eliminiate the tactical strengths of my ship. There would be no point nor realistic test involved.
personally that wasnt the aim of the comment i wouldnt change the setup on my ship , its built to be adaptable, i will engage anything in it from battleships to frigates with only 2 exceptions ravens (cos they are nuts) and hacs because they are capable of doing everything a cruiser can do but better.
the aim of the comment wasnt to 'call you out' or prove anything to the eve community it was merely to see an interesting setup in action against its preferred foe and to see if it works.
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
You are are good guy, sgt, with decent piloting skills.
how do you know? i could be a horrible bastard who likes to post on forums but who only mines in game
can you put a price on peace? |
sgt spike
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Posted - 2006.02.28 22:02:00 -
[30]
where and when have you seen me fight ? you must have been quick cos im either dead or picking up the loot in about 5 seconds, and i must reiterate my cruiser is not frigate specific
either way you arent gonna gimme a shot so i guess ill leave it there
can you put a price on peace? |
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.02.28 22:06:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 28/02/2006 22:10:05
Quote:
either way you arent gonna gimme a shot so i guess ill leave it there
Sounds good. My "Knight in shining ******* armor" badge is away getting fixed right now, so next time I want to test something by running into a deathtrap that someone is already prepared for, I'll send in my heroic double. Otherwise, I'll continue recommending this setup for pirating rookies that need an affordable and very effective method of frigate piracy.
Don't talk chivalry with a pirate, everyone goes home with notes to their parents and we lose our daily gold stars.
Oi, how about a thread clean mods? Tired of seeing all my threads run into the ground.
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Surion Malthin
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Posted - 2006.03.01 19:24:00 -
[32]
I have yet to try this build, but it looks really promising. Unfortunately though, untill I have engineering 4 it doesn't seem like this will work (I need like .8 more on my power grid). To make up for that, one of my cap power relays will have to be replaced with a power diagnostic system. Will that hurt me much?
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.03.01 19:27:00 -
[33]
It shouldn't hurt too much, no. You may not be able to tank a medium nos and you might have to stick to gamma crystals, but you should still be fine.
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Atlanton Marcus
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:00:00 -
[34]
This is a wonderful guide Malka.
If I am going to be running L2 missions in high sec, would it be a little better to replace a cap relay with an adaptive nano, and replace the scrambler with a cap recharger?
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Ernest Graefenberg
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:10:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 08/03/2006 21:12:13
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 08/03/2006 21:11:34
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 28/02/2006 22:10:05
Quote:
either way you arent gonna gimme a shot so i guess ill leave it there
Sounds good. My "Knight in shining ******* armor" badge is away getting fixed right now, so next time I want to test something by running into a deathtrap that someone is already prepared for, I'll send in my heroic double. Otherwise, I'll continue recommending this setup for pirating rookies that need an affordable and very effective method of frigate piracy.
Just from running into quite a few of these exact setups over the last few weeks (and vaporizing groups of them quite handily, without a setup designed for any sort of all-out warfare [ratting, 2 stabs, webber :/ ]) is that anyone with as much preparation as a single webber schools you badly. It does however, like you said, fulfill the single purpose of being able to tank non-webbing opponents.
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Adoran Wa'alle
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:16:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
It shouldn't hurt too much, no. You may not be able to tank a medium nos and you might have to stick to gamma crystals, but you should still be fine.
Since you've already requested a thread clean, I'll come with an off topic comment.
Your old sig was a little disturbing, but I'll tell ya...If I can't sleep tonight, your sig is the reason 
A little more on topic, I've used this setup to death and I love it (Still pretty much a newbie pirate, but I've moved on to cruisers for the most part). When I, once in a blue moon, get into my punisher, this is the setup I use. Love it or hate it, it works
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Want a forum Signature? Click me, or contact me in-game |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.03.08 23:27:00 -
[37]
This setup is also outdated. For a much more effective (in my experience) version, review my Experimental Bleeder setup, found in the ship setups sticky.
Adds more tank, more survivability, better damage, and is overall a smarter move.
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Pichemanu
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Posted - 2006.04.20 15:59:00 -
[38]
Hello
Me and a couple of friends are strating pirats, and we decided to use this setup and i can say it's great. That beaing said i dosen't solve all problems (NO SETUP CAN!!). We managed to kill brutixes, prophecys, caracals... But then we died hrribly to a webbing moa with blasters. U have to consider losses like that aceptable as we made tons more isk from the ransoms and modules then u lost with our punishers. We accept the fact that a close range anti frig cruiser/bc/bs can kill us, but for every one of those we catch many who are not and that makes up:). We tryed a 3 man gang with 2 punishers setup like this and one with a web instead a scram.
Now we are experimanting with replacing the nos with a remote repairer on the webing punisher, and a coercer as main dmg dealer that warps in after takle and unleashes hell:P and if it gets badly shot at it warps off.
I have to try the other setup with autos but for now we'll stick to this one with lasers (no proj skils ftl atm).
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buhuhu...
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Corbis Thalamar
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:22:00 -
[39]
Hey Malka,
This is a -great- build. I'm still somewhat a newb though am starting to come into my own and have decided to focus on developing my combat support skills (engineering, electronics, etc)rather than get into the biggest baddest ship only to lose it because I couldn't pilot it effectively. So frigates have been a mainstay of my fleet.
This bleeder settup is deceptively sneaky. I held my own last night against a t2 punisher and managed to take out some dude in a Thorax and I think a large reason for my success in these engagements was because people underestimated the tanking ability of this build.
I do have a question however, I find my cap is -never- a problem even with the majority of my stuff on, so wondered if this build would still be cap viable with a heat sink or damage mod of some sort?
additionally, someone had recently asked the question of relacing the warp scrambler with another mod. I would advise against this (Malka feel free to correct me) as I found the settup does require a considerable amount of time given that your not so much dealing allot of damage, but rather outlasting your opponent in terms of cap, tank, etc. If they can warp off whenever they wish than you'll never actually be able to deliver that final blow (or get them into a position to ransom).
Malka, if you are still following this thread, I would -love- to see how you make your approaches in this ship. Any chance of showing me how to be a bad man?
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Haniblecter Teg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 16:44:00 -
[40]
A nos on a punisher.
BRILLIANT!
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Friends Forever
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madaluap
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:11:00 -
[41]
i prefer a fast frig, instead of a tanking frig. i mean tackling is there primary use, not tanking tech2 drones and medium tech 2 guns..
_________________________________________________
no sig :( |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:12:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 21/04/2006 17:12:51
Originally by: Corbis Thalamar
Hey Malka,
This is a -great- build. I'm still somewhat a newb though am starting to come into my own and have decided to focus on developing my combat support skills (engineering, electronics, etc)rather than get into the biggest baddest ship only to lose it because I couldn't pilot it effectively. So frigates have been a mainstay of my fleet.
That is the -best- possible way to approach beginning piracy. Use something cheap, replacable, and quick so that you can get through the first few weeks of hard knocks without breaking the ISK bank. With larger ships, saftey is not guaranteed, so get used to letting your smaller ships tear apart the larger ships piloted by more inexperienced players. Quote:
I do have a question however, I find my cap is -never- a problem even with the majority of my stuff on, so wondered if this build would still be cap viable with a heat sink or damage mod of some sort?
I've considered it and it's completely situational. A heatsink would give you a great level of damage output but at the cost of no longer being able to tank a medium nos. Remember that this ship design isn't meant to just bleed someone to death but it needs to be able defend against common anti-frigate tactics. The low sig radius helps somewhat against being webbed, the heavy resistances and sustainable tank defends against a full set of light drones or 2-3 medium drones, and the mixture of CPR/Nos can outcap a medium nos.
I would leave the CPRs until you get the appropriate capacitor skills up (to level 4) so that your skills are naturally replacing a single CPR. At that point in time a heatsink would be wonderful. Quote:
additionally, someone had recently asked the question of relacing the warp scrambler with another mod. I would advise against this (Malka feel free to correct me) as I found the settup does require a considerable amount of time given that your not so much dealing allot of damage, but rather outlasting your opponent in terms of cap, tank, etc. If they can warp off whenever they wish than you'll never actually be able to deliver that final blow (or get them into a position to ransom).
I don't even understand the reasoning behind -not- fitting a scrambler. What are you going to do otherwise? Hump them to death?
As a side note, there is a altered version of this design on the ships and setups thread, where I use ACs and focus more on balanced armor/capacitor than this current version. It may or may not work for your situation, but give it consideration. Quote:
i prefer a fast frig, instead of a tanking frig
Sounds great in theory until they hit you with a medium nos and webber, then you lose both capacitor to sustain your speed and transversal velocity to speed tank. The bleeder isn't a tanker so much as it is a counter to common tactics.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:26:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Quote:
i prefer a fast frig, instead of a tanking frig
Sounds great in theory until they hit you with a medium nos and webber, then you lose both capacitor to sustain your speed and transversal velocity to speed tank. The bleeder isn't a tanker so much as it is a counter to common tactics.
Yes, trust me there is NOTHING more annoying than having all your speed negated and cap drained... Which is why I have been working on coming up with a frig/cruiser (t2 med autos not included) that can operate outside 10km and still be able to do good damage...
Difficult.
Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild
CAPS LOCK IS THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:34:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Which is why I have been working on coming up with a frig/cruiser (t2 med autos not included) that can operate outside 10km and still be able to do good damage...
qft. For non-interceptor class ships you have the problem of both capacitor and damage. Ranged weaponry generally does a good deal less damage than close-range weaponry, combine that with trying to run a 20k disruptor on a frigate. Not to mention the huge loss of CPU that 20k isn't going to last long enough for you to keep your target in place. MWD/AB + 20k + weaponry + repping = goodbye cap.
In the days of old when you could dual MWD and similar, speed was king with frigates because you -had- to be able to outrun missiles. Now, it's moreso a matter of negating tactics, countering manuvers, and letting capacitor be the new king.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:37:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
In the days of old when you could dual MWD and similar, speed was king with frigates because you -had- to be able to outrun missiles. Now, it's moreso a matter of negating tactics, countering manuvers, and letting capacitor be the new king.
Speak on stuff you know not what you think you know. You could outrun missiles without "Dual speed" setups.
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Hungry Eyes
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:43:00 -
[46]
riddle me this...
i decided to pvp a rifter pilot just the other night, a mutual 1 on 1. he had the most basic setup: 3x150mm, nos, ab, web, scramble, armour rep...
i used my punisher with 3 x light pulses, ab, some resistance plating and an armour rep. he got in below my optimal and falloff and ripped me apart with his AC's while i stood there tanking for a really long time, but i ran out of cap cuz i didnt have the CPR's (i was testing resistances on npcs at the time). my pulses got through his shields while i was approaching, but once he got next to me, i couldnt touch him. in local, we had a chat and he tells me he didnt even have to use his rep.
so, my question is how does one counter a claw with a crusader for example? the only thing that comes to mind is dual web.. but with faster ships using ac's, pulses cant touch. another thing that comes to mind is mounting ac's myself, but that would negate the power of the crusader's dmg bonus. any other suggetions?
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Corbis Thalamar
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:54:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Corbis Thalamar on 21/04/2006 17:55:57
Malka, thx for the info regarding the 3rd CPR... I'd wondered if it was to defend against opponent NOS or if it would have made a difference...
I too have found that I will occasionally have an issue trying to run down my opponent because they were just too fast to keep in my optimal. However, I think that this might just be a case of "well you can't get everything you want, kid." This build is awesome for what it's purposes are, however it's not a catch-all-solve-any-problem ship (does such a thing exist?)I would be hesitant (well, actually no, I'm pretty wreckless really) about engaging speed-built ships unless I felt confident I could get the jump on them and had a chance of aiding a cap drain, thus turning that shiney fast ship into a floating brick...
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Zysco
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:28:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
In the days of old when you could dual MWD and similar, speed was king with frigates because you -had- to be able to outrun missiles. Now, it's moreso a matter of negating tactics, countering manuvers, and letting capacitor be the new king.
Speak on stuff you know not what you think you know. You could outrun missiles without "Dual speed" setups.
Yeah... thats why rifter pwned kestrals cause they could outrun their missiles even in a normal mwd setup.
New Petition Inc Vid
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:32:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Yeah... thats why rifter pwned kestrals cause they could outrun their missiles even in a normal mwd setup.
And that's completely true. But it was never true for the punisher. Dual-AB was important and he dual-MWD setup was to escape a sticky situation.
Just because the rifter didn't need a dual-loadout to avoid castor missiles doesn't mean other variations of the frigate class didn't need it for an already low base speed.
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.04.21 19:32:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Neon Genesis on 21/04/2006 19:32:55
For a scram, ab and a nos, i'd say you have way to many relays in the lows. Perhaps a damage mod/eanm or two instead.
The philosophy is sound but I think you'll find your damage/tanking isn't too impressive although you do have a mountain of cap.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.04.21 19:40:00 -
[51]
Hence why people need to read threads.. versus just hit reply. Quote:
For a scram, ab and a nos, i'd say you have way to many relays in the lows. Perhaps a damage mod/eanm or two instead.
The philosophy is sound but I think you'll find your damage/tanking isn't too impressive although you do have a mountain of cap.
The additional cap relay isn't for sustainability of the scram, ab, rep, 3 energy turrets. It's to tank off a singular medium nos which ends up being a common anti-frigate tactic. And it isn't a matter of what I think I'll find, but what I've done for the punisher in this setup years before I even created Malka. It works, and the goal of being versatile in many situations most frigates would be forced to disengage is well met. ♥
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.04.21 19:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Hence why people need to read threads.. versus just hit reply. Quote:
For a scram, ab and a nos, i'd say you have way to many relays in the lows. Perhaps a damage mod/eanm or two instead.
The philosophy is sound but I think you'll find your damage/tanking isn't too impressive although you do have a mountain of cap.
The additional cap relay isn't for sustainability of the scram, ab, rep, 3 energy turrets. It's to tank off a singular medium nos which ends up being a common anti-frigate tactic. And it isn't a matter of what I think I'll find, but what I've done for the punisher in this setup years before I even created Malka. It works, and the goal of being versatile in many situations most frigates would be forced to disengage is well met. ♥
Well I agree with the medium nos point. However, I find it questionable what kind of ships those 3 t1 guns are going to be able to destroy. The single small nos isn't going to effect cruiser sized ship's cap(and therefore their tank) in a significant way.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:03:00 -
[53]
Quote:
Well I agree with the medium nos point. However, I find it questionable what kind of ships those 3 t1 guns are going to be able to destroy. The single small nos isn't going to effect cruiser sized ship's cap(and therefore their tank) in a significant way.
Frigate-class nos are not meant to be used as an offensive weapon but something to counterbalance the energy weapons. The nos, in and of itself, can keep the guns running along with the AB. I'm not concerned about the effect it has on the enemies capacitor. The relays remain the primary source of capacitor for continual armor repairing and then being able to sustain a full module activation and tank a medium nos if needed.
The bleeder works not by draining their cap directly but indirectly. Due to the small signature radius but semi-slow semi-fast speed of the punisher many feel they can still slap it, even with a tech 1 webber. Because of they they are activating their weaponry and then repairing as needed. The secret is that all they would need to do is redirect all capacitor into tanking the damage versus trying to destroy me.
An example would be when I engage omens or similar. I'm moving too fast for their guns and the glancing blows on me when I'm webbed hurt but nothing I can't repair. As their guns run on and on and my weaponry is hitting for moderate damage you add their repairer into the equation. A full rack of cruiser class weaponry + repairing is enough to leave most cruisers in the dust, as they simply don't count on sustainability for 4-5 minute engagements. Same with caracals. They will pummel away with heavy launchers (assault launchers hurt...) and it won't break my t2 repairer. All I have to do is orbit, scramble, fire with gamma crystals, keep the AB on to help negate some missile damage, keep the repairer on, and eventually the damage done to him is going to have drained his capacitor from the continual need to tank. That could of course be remedied with skills and veteran knowledge of PvP combat... but we can't make too broad an assumption because let's face it, veteran PvP combat is not the majority of the EVE playerbase.
But mind you again, the principle of defeating this setup is obvious. Out tank the damage, which while isn't small, certainly won't crush veteran pilots. Again, the point of the bleeder is a cheap but highly effective frigate for wolf-packs or beginning pirates. I wanted it to be able to sustain complete capacitor for a multitude of situations, and be able to completely counter some of the more commonly used anti-frigate tactics.
Cheers
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Ernest Graefenberg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:29:00 -
[54]
I hate to break it to you, but if they can't hit you with any sort of webber on you, you're fighting retards of the highest order.
Which is mostly what lowsec piracy is about anyway, if I recall correctly. Engaging people with PvE setups or incapable of flying a straight line out to 5k range.
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:30:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 21/04/2006 20:04:38
Quote:
Well I agree with the medium nos point. However, I find it questionable what kind of ships those 3 t1 guns are going to be able to destroy. The single small nos isn't going to effect cruiser sized ship's cap(and therefore their tank) in a significant way.
Frigate-class nos are not meant to be used as an offensive weapon but something to counterbalance the energy weapons. The nos, in and of itself, can keep the guns running along with the AB. I'm not concerned about the effect it has on the enemies capacitor. The relays remain the primary source of capacitor for continual armor repairing and then being able to sustain a full module activation and tank a medium nos if needed.
The bleeder works not by draining their cap directly but indirectly. Due to the small signature radius but semi-slow semi-fast speed of the punisher many feel they can still slap it, even with a tech 1 webber. Because of they they are activating their weaponry and then repairing as needed. The secret is that all they would need to do is redirect all capacitor into tanking the damage versus trying to destroy me.
An example would be when I engage omens or similar. I'm moving too fast for their guns and the glancing blows on me when I'm webbed hurt but nothing I can't repair. As their guns run on and on and my weaponry is hitting for moderate damage you add their repairer into the equation. A full rack of cruiser class weaponry + repairing is enough to leave most cruisers in the dust, as they simply don't count on sustainability for 4-5 minute engagements. Same with caracals. They will pummel away with heavy launchers (assault launchers hurt...) and it won't break my t2 repairer. All I have to do is orbit, scramble, fire with gamma crystals, keep the AB on to help negate some missile damage, keep the repairer on, and eventually the damage done to him is going to have drained his capacitor from the continual need to tank. That could of course be remedied with skills and veteran knowledge of PvP combat... but we can't make too broad an assumption because let's face it, veteran PvP combat is not the majority of the EVE playerbase.
But mind you again, the principle of defeating this setup is obvious. Out tank the damage, which while isn't small, certainly won't crush veteran pilots. Again, the point of the bleeder is a cheap but highly effective frigate for wolf-packs or beginning pirates. I wanted it to be able to sustain complete capacitor for a multitude of situations, and be able to completely counter some of the more commonly used anti-frigate tactics. The damage, while it may seem small, occurs quickly. Think of goonfleet but apply actual logic to the engagement of smaller ships versus larger ships. Eventually being poked in the tummy enough is going to cause a heart attack.
Cheers
Closerange medium guns + decent webber + drones = dead punisher. An x5 web on a t1 ab'ing punisher and it's gonna be going at a snails pace, and you'll become easy meat for the vast majority of cruisers. Small repairer one will be swept aside fairly quickly.
It's a fragile setup with low damage that is very resistant to medium nos imo.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Altair Bourne
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Posted - 2006.04.22 03:37:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Altair Bourne on 22/04/2006 03:38:30
First of all Malka, let me say I've really enjoyed this thread and the 'experimental' bleeder one too.
Using your base setups I've done a lot of experimenting with mostly good success. Where either pulse or AC's come undone are against a faster frigate with longer range weapons. I got taken out by a wolf firing t2 artillery from 12k range. I couldnt close as he was faster and I couldn't run as I was scambled. In that scenario the AC/pulse Punisher loses no matter how you set it up. I think that a Rifter would probably have destroyed me too if fitted with a similar t1 weapon.
Any ideas on countering a setup like that or is it a no win situation?
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Malka Badi'a
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Posted - 2006.04.22 05:17:00 -
[57]
Bleeder setups are certainly NOT anti-frigate. Replace it with dual light pulses, MWD instead of an AB, and swap around a few things for a 200mm plate.
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Corbis Thalamar
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Posted - 2006.04.25 17:59:00 -
[58]
For those who might doubt this settup I downed a Thorax the other day in Malka's bleeder settup. He was settup for a long-range combat and I warped in very close to him, locked, scrambled and had AB and Reppers on the entire time. Eventually his tank was broken on account of his cap being slowly taken out due to Armor Reps + my little NOS. After that he was pretty much a flying brick.
He had drones, in the beginning. I focused on taking those out while maintaining the best transverse velocity against his Thorax I could.
So, to those who doubt. I can be done. It's not easy, but the settup is surprisingly resiliant and cheap.
Corb.
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Mr Breakfast
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Posted - 2006.04.25 21:21:00 -
[59]
I've been looking for a Punisher setup to PvP cheaply in when I have free time to mess around in empire lowsec. Thanks Malka.
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Corbis Thalamar
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Posted - 2006.04.27 15:56:00 -
[60]
Hi held up a Caracal in this build last night.
Just more testimony to the build. Woot!
Corbis.
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Nixxrite
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Posted - 2006.05.16 09:53:00 -
[61]
Great build Malka,
You obviously know your stuff  IÆd be interested what changes youÆd make for a PvE build though?
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Hugo Strange
Gallente
Cosmic research and production services
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.17 23:27:00 -
[62]
Ive got a pvp contest comining up gonna have to try this out
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c180/hugostrange/spamsig.jpg |
Stormhold
FinFleet
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.18 00:04:00 -
[63]
My 3d old alt approved it good for empire pirating.
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Windorian
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Posted - 2006.11.28 02:00:00 -
[64]
I have to say i love this ship setup. It's cheap, it's gritty, and very few expect it coming. the only thing i changed was to put in a EANM(energized adaptive nano membrane) in place of the third cap power relay, as my skills are adaquate enough to sustain it. If you want proof of this setup's worth, try it yourself. I've survived missile volleys and gun-boats without going below 95% cap. For proof, go to www.podbase.com and look up my character, windorian. just today i took out an omen without him even breaking my shields. Good hunting
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Deaths Wisper
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Posted - 2006.11.29 10:53:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Deaths Wisper on 29/11/2006 10:54:16
Stop bickering with malka she's right ;) finally got the skills up high enough to venture out there and killed a min cruiser. i ended the fight with stable cap and full armor and he ended it in a pod. i made a few modifications of corse but with a bit of tweaking this thing is a beast.
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volly
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Posted - 2006.11.29 11:26:00 -
[66]
Try this one:
High: 3x 150er ACs
1x Smal NOS
Med:
Web
7.5k scram
Low:
Small Rep
400er Plate
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Gyrostab II
almost 2000 HPs
60-80% Resists
No cap draining weapons, superb tracking (orbit 500)
Ok its slow, but most ratting cruiser will just ignore you....big mistake 
Just engage and begin targeting when you are < 10k range.
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Zeonos
Amarr
venus divine brotherhood
Dark Forces Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.29 16:10:00 -
[67]
when you say run all sustainable. do that include armor repairs?
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Shiv Ertai
Gallente
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2006.11.30 07:23:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Zeonos
when you say run all sustainable. do that include armor repairs?
With the cap boost in Revelations (+25% cap capacity, +25% cap recharge), the armor repairer is sustainable with level 4 in both cap skills. Not sure about before Rev or with lower skills, my fights in this ship never lasted long enough to drain the cap.
One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them.
One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them. |
Miss Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.12.06 01:18:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Highs:
2xMedium Pulse Laser I
1xDual-light Pulse Laser I
1xSmall Nosferatu I
Mediums:
1x1mn Afterburner I
1xWarp Scrambler I
Lows:
1xSmall Armor Repairer I
3xCapacitor Power Relay I
This work absolutely perfect if you get a special ops character because of the bonuses to capacitor you get from all the electronics skills you start with.
Although I have to make a small adjustemnt: The 1mn Afterburner must be replaced by a Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters. Same cpu an power requirements but 120% bonus velocity rather than 105%.
Also I tryed to get 3 Medium Pulse Lasers instead of 2 and a dual-light one for increased damage. That comes at the expense of 1 Capacitor Power Relay which has to be replaced by a Power Diagnostic System I. I'm using this Config with Electronics and Engineering at level 4. Do not try it with those skills at level 3: it's pointless.
Also you might want to consider using a Small Automated I Carapace Restoration because it saves 1 cpu, starts a little faster and restores a little more (9 ap more to be exact).
Hope this help ;)
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Ishina Fel
Caldari
Synergy.
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.12.06 08:32:00 -
[70]
Of course fielding named items (or t2 if they fit) will make the ship a better fighter, but also a more expensive one. Remember that when flying this, you're the mosquito that tries to sting the dog to death in a slow battle of attrition. A lot can go wrong. If you want to make true money with piracy, you need a truly expendable ship, because you will die repeatedly - every ship with every setup has a counter. In the end it all comes down to how much you're willing to risk.
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Baelmon
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.12.24 07:09:00 -
[71]
What changes would you make to this build to make it more PvE orientated?
Baelmon - Freelance Amarrian Pilot |
Khundarin L
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Posted - 2007.01.03 01:58:00 -
[72]
Does the build mentioned in the startingpost still work fine?
As i'm currently trying to make one like this to start my pirating carreer..
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Draexus Jhaltuur
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Posted - 2007.03.30 00:09:00 -
[73]
Thank you very much for this, Malka. I was completely lost at what to do with my Punisher when I started, but this setup works well for me.
Thanks again.
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Terahi
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Posted - 2007.04.11 17:43:00 -
[74]
I'm actually currently playing around with the idea of making a bleeder omen, after reading your post here, I think you could probably make a fairly deadly cruiser out of it. Hmmm maybe a Zelot too... if your interested in the results, let me know I'll get back to you on how it goes.
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Malkyth
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Posted - 2007.05.25 02:38:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Malkyth on 25/05/2007 02:42:06
Edited by: Malkyth on 25/05/2007 02:41:25
Hey Malka Badi'a great build this made my game much easier comming in a noob into this game. This also made everything easier cause I had special ops :)
Anyways I'm a mission runner by day and a pvper by night and I read here and other places you can run lvl 2 missions with this ship. And I try to with my Punisher and I cannot seem to make it work even with a cap battery instead of a web and a tech II armor rep.
I always seem to loose out to the missiles and they beat my armor repairer. Should I maybe try a active hardener or something to do those lvl 2 missions? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Its wierd cause when I use this setup for lvl1 I never have problems. I can run my armor repairer my ab my guns and a web and I dont even need the nos so I usually swap it for a salvager. But when I go to lvl 2 with everything on it I get beat.
GREAT SETUP THANKS A TON!
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Heyte
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Posted - 2007.05.29 01:43:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Heyte on 29/05/2007 01:44:36
Why not use 200mm rolled tungsten instead of 200mm steel plates? Not only is it lighter, it offers more armor and requires even less cpu.
'Advanced Weapon Upgrades' might also help with PG requirements, considering the whole 400mm deal. 400mm also helps against missiles.
But where did I here that armor plates help with resistances? It doesn't say so in any of the descrips I've read.
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Daziel Iaar
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.07.03 18:38:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Daziel Iaar on 03/07/2007 18:42:36
Sorry if this is a dead and buried thread but i was looking for a good set upf or my punisher and came across it. I am new.
At the moment i'm fairly new and can equip every except i am .25 to low with my energygrid and my capacitor drains even with the three relays on when the armour repair and afterburner is on.
Anyway i was hoping you could suggest a way of fixing this, should i get energy system operation or energy management up first then engineering to level 4? I can't tell which is the most important.
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Julius Romanus
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Posted - 2007.07.03 19:49:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Daziel Iaar
Edited by: Daziel Iaar on 03/07/2007 18:59:47
Edited by: Daziel Iaar on 03/07/2007 18:42:36
Sorry if this is a dead and buried thread but i was looking for a good set upf or my punisher and came across it. I am new.
At the moment i'm fairly new and can equip every except i am .25 to low with my energygrid and my capacitor drains even with the three relays on when the armour repair and afterburner is on.
Anyway i was hoping you could suggest a way of fixing this, should i get energy system operation or energy management up first then engineering to level 4? I can't tell which is the most important.
I have removed the two medium pulse lasers and replaced them with two small pulse lasers making it three dual pulse laser, is that any good? i figure since i'll be pvping against alot of minmatar maybe faster pulse lasers are better?
Energy Management 3
Energy Systems Operation 3
Frigate at least to 4
3 dual light pulse(tech II's if you can)
1 small nos
7.5k scram, afterburner
Small Armor Rep II
CPR
CPR(or anything else you want that you can fit. DCU II's work great if you can afford em)
Biggest plate you can fit
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Tamaara
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
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Posted - 2007.07.03 20:01:00 -
[79]
If you are having cap trouble then follow her link:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=289086
Also I find Standard crystals work pretty well overall and save a lot of cap.
Recruitment Thread
EKT Website |
Ikserak tai
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Posted - 2007.07.23 16:43:00 -
[80]
Using the "Bleeder" design I killed 24 rats in succession on a mission. Malka Badi'a, I am not worthy, I am not worthy....
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Mr Breakfast
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Posted - 2007.07.23 16:46:00 -
[81]
This is a great setup. If you fit something similar on a Vengeance/Retribution, things can get really ridiculous. Of course if you attack someone competent who has NOS or t2 light drones then you're out of luck.
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Reiger Reiger
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Posted - 2007.08.28 06:41:00 -
[82]
Hello, brand newbie here (day 2ish),
With the changes to the nosferatu with the rev 2.2 patch, is this design now worthless? or does the cap regen allow the lasers without needing the nos?
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Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude
oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.08.28 11:02:00 -
[83]
NECRO.
Your signature was so funny I wet my pants and couldn't get anything done so I changed it, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
WrathchildeVOTF
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:28:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Miss Apocalypse
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Highs:
2xMedium Pulse Laser I
1xDual-light Pulse Laser I
1xSmall Nosferatu I
Mediums:
1x1mn Afterburner I
1xWarp Scrambler I
Lows:
1xSmall Armor Repairer I
3xCapacitor Power Relay I
This work absolutely perfect if you get a special ops character because of the bonuses to capacitor you get from all the electronics skills you start with.
Although I have to make a small adjustemnt: The 1mn Afterburner must be replaced by a Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters. Same cpu an power requirements but 120% bonus velocity rather than 105%.
Also I tryed to get 3 Medium Pulse Lasers instead of 2 and a dual-light one for increased damage. That comes at the expense of 1 Capacitor Power Relay which has to be replaced by a Power Diagnostic System I. I'm using this Config with Electronics and Engineering at level 4. Do not try it with those skills at level 3: it's pointless.
Also you might want to consider using a Small Automated I Carapace Restoration because it saves 1 cpu, starts a little faster and restores a little more (9 ap more to be exact).
Hope this help ;)
This is the basic setup I use to rat 1.5-1.8M Sansa BS spawns in 0.0. Punisher is really underrated by a lot of folks, it's a solid frig, and can do a lot more than you would think it can.
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Ki Shodan
Gallente
deep blue
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Posted - 2007.08.29 15:54:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Reiger Reiger
With the changes to the nosferatu with the rev 2.2 patch, is this design now worthless? or does the cap regen allow the lasers without needing the nos?
Haven't tested it yet, but I guess, yes.
Since the small Nos is primary not there to drain your enemy, but to gain energy for the Rep, Guns and AB. And cruisers do not get sucked dry by one small NOS, unless, of course, you have an opponent with a very tight cap setup and your nos might kick him over the edge, but then his tank breaks, and you do not need the extra cap that badly.
I'd say you just go fine as before 2.2.
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Evemail me, if my name is used as guarantor! |
Optia Darkstone
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.09.09 18:57:00 -
[86]
I love this little ship so much. I can confirm that the original poster's setup does still work even with the changes to nos in Rev 2.2 - though I find using random named CPR's come in handy for me, as I use T2 guns+rep.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.09.09 20:55:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 09/09/2007 20:55:45
Originally by: Optia Darkstone
I love this little ship so much. I can confirm that the original poster's setup does still work even with the changes to nos in Rev 2.2 - though I find using random named CPR's come in handy for me, as I use T2 guns+rep.
This is a shameless necro ;P
Anyway, Malka's setup is good, however, you might love the AC version of it. I don't really like the looks of punishers and their flying style (plus, Amarr frig III doesn't really enable me to get the most out of it), but yeah, they are nasty. It always takes a good while for my Rifter to actually kill a decently setup punisher.
Frigs are awesome on the grounds of cost-efficency, although I never really attack proper combat cruisers (Thorax, Vexor, Rupture, Maller, Arbitrator) with it, unless I have a strong suspicion that the pilot is a terrible noob.
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dav
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:40:00 -
[88]
High:
3x Medium Beam Laser II (Aurora)
Mid:
AB
Disrupter
Low:
SAR II
3x CPR
I was thinking setup could be used orbiting above 10km to avoid being webbed. How would this hold up?
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.11.27 17:57:00 -
[89]
Originally by: dav
High:
3x Medium Beam Laser II (Aurora)
Mid:
AB
Disrupter
Low:
SAR II
3x CPR
I was thinking setup could be used orbiting above 10km to avoid being webbed. How would this hold up?
Bad necro, bad!
Also, no. Will die, AB doesn't provide nearly enough speed to not get webbed.
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:02:00 -
[90]
Quote:
Will die, AB doesn't provide nearly enough speed to not get webbed.
Depends on if you've pre-calculated the weapon responce capability of your target. Being webbed against a missile launcher isn't too bad, nor if they have slow cruiser (or higher) class guns so long as you squeeze in real tight. It's dangerous, but doable with a level head and proper choice of target.
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MenanceWhite
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:18:00 -
[91]
Edited by: MenanceWhite on 10/01/2008 19:18:33
You can replace the lasers with blasters for more damage output. But yeah, with laser you can find a single rat BS, toggle nos, ab, rep, lasers and go afk.
Barely any loss if you did get killed when you return.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:22:00 -
[92]
Originally by: MenanceWhite
Edited by: MenanceWhite on 10/01/2008 19:18:33
You can replace the lasers with blasters for more damage output. But yeah, with laser you can find a single rat BS, toggle nos, ab, rep, lasers and go afk.
Barely any loss if you did get killed when you return.
Actually, blaster punishers do preety nasty DPS, and are preety OK for killing other frigs. I've killed one in my Rifter, but it was using T1 neutrons and I have preety awesome skills for the Rifter.
Rifters!
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:26:00 -
[93]
Quote:
You can replace the lasers with blasters for more damage output. But yeah, with laser you can find a single rat BS, toggle nos, ab, rep, lasers and go afk.
Barely any loss if you did get killed when you return.
I've considered blasters in place of lasers (used autocannons in my final design, see the link in the first ost) and can't remember why I chose not to. From what I recall, the requirements of fitting for the gallente weaponry blaster-class was an increase in CPU and powergrid. This resulted in slightly higher DPS, slightly faster tracking, similar capacitor use but ended up being a boon. The blaster range was simply far too short for a ship that doesn't have the same speed options as gallente-class ships to engage in PvP, and while that could be altered with different ammo types it simply didn't hold a candle to the range versatility of beams+crystals. Ammo changes for range alteration were handled with incredible speed, meaning I could go from pounding on shields to a second later pounding on released drones without having to alter that safe, tight orbit.
I'll review it a second time, I'm sure, for general PvP use. Anyone with more experience than myself, since I'm just reviewing theorycraft for this case, please share your thoughts.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.10 19:47:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 10/01/2008 19:48:34
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Quote:
You can replace the lasers with blasters for more damage output. But yeah, with laser you can find a single rat BS, toggle nos, ab, rep, lasers and go afk.
Barely any loss if you did get killed when you return.
I've considered blasters in place of lasers (used autocannons in my final design, see the link in the first ost) and can't remember why I chose not to. From what I recall, the requirements of fitting for the gallente weaponry blaster-class was an increase in CPU and powergrid. This resulted in slightly higher DPS, slightly faster tracking, similar capacitor use but ended up being a boon. The blaster range was simply far too short for a ship that doesn't have the same speed options as gallente-class ships to engage in PvP, and while that could be altered with different ammo types it simply didn't hold a candle to the range versatility of beams+crystals. Ammo changes for range alteration were handled with incredible speed, meaning I could go from pounding on shields to a second later pounding on released drones without having to alter that safe, tight orbit.
I'll review it a second time, I'm sure, for general PvP use. Anyone with more experience than myself, since I'm just reviewing theorycraft for this case, please share your thoughts.
Well, blasters on a Punisher aren't horribly hard to fit and do very good DPS, even w/out a damage bonus. Of course, problem is the range, but for frigate to frigate combat, blaster-range is mostly enough.
Blasterships will try to engage you at their (and your!) optimal, while AC boats will typically assume it's a AC/laser punisher and go to 500m range to deal maximum DPS, since Punishers are a bit hard to break.
As for engaging cruisers, I don't know. I think that for drone killing, you'd do better with blasters, since you are interested in pulling the tightest orbit possible anyway. How you could do it w/out a web I don't know, though.
In frig to frig combat, the only thing I see beating a T2-fit Punisher with blasters is someone with mad skills in a Rifter loading Hail S which very few Rifter pilots do in the first place. The danger of someone getting out of your range on a essentially webless ship is, of course, preety bad... what's the range with Null S?
Rifters!
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis
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Posted - 2008.01.10 20:14:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Well, blasters on a Punisher aren't horribly hard to fit and do very good DPS, even w/out a damage bonus. Of course, problem is the range, but for frigate to frigate combat, blaster-range is mostly enough.
I agree on the latter part, but then again the bleeder idea was never meant for frigate on frigate, just frigate on cruiser/bc/bs. Hence the reliance on the slightly less damaging, but more range-versatile ammoless lasers. I've sometimes engaged a prophecy only to find myself needing to wait 5-10 minutes for the damn thing to blow up. Now while that long a duration is rare, and dangerous, it still points to the importance of unlimited ammo during a drain situation. Originally by: Cpt Branko
As for engaging cruisers, I don't know. I think that for drone killing, you'd do better with blasters, since you are interested in pulling the tightest orbit possible anyway. How you could do it w/out a web I don't know, though.
Depends, the survivability depends initially on that close orbit of 500m-1k, and the moment that's broken they can bring all their might to bare on you. Being able to orbit the target + put in 1-3k crystals to mop up the drones that are flying an orbit around a target orbiting something else, always let me do so with relative ease. A web was always a downfall but never the end-game. By keeping manual transversal trajectories you can still outmanuver most close-range weaponry without taking too much damage. ACs will hurt due to the extreme range and tracking and longer-ranged weapons will hurt since onced webbed they can move to optimal where your transversal simply dies.
When a web does come into play, and they aren't using close-range weaponry, then it's basically **** out of luck.
Hence my recent analysis of Minmatar-based ships for piracy since my return. A little less endurance but more versatility. We'll see what happens.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.10 21:59:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
Depends, the survivability depends initially on that close orbit of 500m-1k, and the moment that's broken they can bring all their might to bare on you. Being able to orbit the target + put in 1-3k crystals to mop up the drones that are flying an orbit around a target orbiting something else, always let me do so with relative ease. A web was always a downfall but never the end-game. By keeping manual transversal trajectories you can still outmanuver most close-range weaponry without taking too much damage. ACs will hurt due to the extreme range and tracking and longer-ranged weapons will hurt since onced webbed they can move to optimal where your transversal simply dies.
There's a preety easy (dirty) trick you can do provided you're in a PvP fit cruiser (MWD/web/distruptor). Just move away; if you're webbed, turn on the MWD while webbing them.
This ensures that the frigate is incapable of orbiting you due to it being slower then you are (using a AB) or having a massive sig radius (using a MWD) and the angular velocity drops preety low enabling cruiser-sized short range guns to track beautifully.
I've kept BCs with D180s tackled for minutes (literally) in my Rifter until they realised what to do and started MWD-ing away from me (MWD Hurricane speed >> AB Rifter speed so you can't orbit), at which point I exploded extremely fast. Shame, because I had a rapier coming in as support 30s later ;(
Rifters!
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Malka Badi'a
Suffoco Noctis
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:08:00 -
[97]
That's dead-on the countertactic. Sadly, a lot of targets simply laugh and open fire, without considering their trajectory and thus end up getting destroyed by smaller ships. As I said in another thread, a clever pilot can outmanuver any webbed frigate with just a little thought on trajectory.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2008.01.10 22:43:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
That's dead-on the countertactic. Sadly, a lot of targets simply laugh and open fire, without considering their trajectory and thus end up getting destroyed by smaller ships. As I said in another thread, a clever pilot can outmanuver any webbed frigate with just a little thought on trajectory.
Yeah, there are admittedly many pilots who don't know this or don't fit quality webs (if someone is using a T1 web vs a Rifter with a X5, the Rifter is preety safe really).
I fly Rifters a lot and I see a good deal of not so competent cruiser pilots who die because they don't either fit their ships right or fly their ships right.
If they do, well, Rifters are cheap to begin with.
If you do give the Rifter a try, it's better since the NOS nerf since you can actually tank a bit that way while having the spare midslot for a web. Plus, it's faster then the Punisher making it much less likely to get hit, admittedly with a much worse tank on it.
Rifters!
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The Djego
Minmatar
FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.
The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.01.10 23:11:00 -
[99]
Edited by: The Djego on 10/01/2008 23:15:49
Originally by: Malka Badi'a
That's dead-on the countertactic. Sadly, a lot of targets simply laugh and open fire, without considering their trajectory and thus end up getting destroyed by smaller ships. As I said in another thread, a clever pilot can outmanuver any webbed frigate with just a little thought on trajectory.
You can even kill Incerceptor with this tactic in a BS. Simply get yourself dry, that nos them dry, put web on and push the MWD to lower Trasversial. Even if you only got 3-5% hit Chance after Signatur Radius you will kill him in 2-3 Hits(and this happens fast). But not may will do this, it makes the diffrence between a skilled Player and dead Player.
Since Nos changes, it will not proviede full substaiably against other Ships with huge cap. For anti Frig fighting Neut + Aks will be very deacend(with a Plate). Otherwise against Larger Ships Nos still works good but you will loose the advantage of tanking at the same time your target will simpy because of the Nos Changes.
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Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! |
Terrenor
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:20:00 -
[100]
Well, I'm going to have some pvp with some friends - frigates only and I'd like to go with a punisher. Since we wont be warping around, a scrambler ain't needed. Here's what I came up so far:
High
3x dual light beams
Med
AB
Small cap injector (with 75's or 100's)
Low
Small armor repairer
2x eanm
200mm rolled tungsten
It's supposed to be t1 fit only, other than that, I'd appreciate comments (I know it's probably horrible - I'm rather new to the game).
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Lady Destruction
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Posted - 2008.01.28 14:24:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Terrenor
Med
AB
Small cap injector (with 75's or 100's)
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It's not that bad, only u need a scram if u want to kill some1 and second, are u sure u have enough cap to run it?
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Cfiloruz Xilocient
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Posted - 2008.02.25 10:38:00 -
[102]
One thing struck me reading this thread.
There is always someone complaining heavily how this build id good for nothing or is cheep or for noobs. (killing noobs in particular thread)
What i came here (3rd day of eve) is precisely to find a ship build that could "tank" or basically i would not end up owning ship i'd have to name "Punisher The 4th"
I would like to find cheap and surviving PvE ships. Because mining for moneymaking gets pretty dull after 4th run (Inquisitor on cargo steroids) and pretty low on mining skills.
And what is hard on wallet is to replace that good for nothing fitted punisher after each mil ISK for that mil ISK if i'm lucky enough to do missions and survive to make up new ship.
So stop whining about ship build being cheep. someone might actually like those builds and make great use or being really happy to find them
Thankyou.
/me goes to browse some more.
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Farawuil
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Posted - 2008.02.27 12:42:00 -
[103]
I just want to say that I really like this setup! I tried it with some corp mates, I did pretty good going against a Caracal, a Moa and a Omen. I struggled a bit against some other frigates though...
Also, if someone plans to use this ship for piracy, please be aware that it really does take quite some time to kill a cruiser with this setup. And from what I understand from PVP, if you take too much time to kill somebody, they might call for help ;) .
Still, great setup, I can' wait to see how will this setup fare once I've improved my skills!
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