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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
2
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Posted - 2011.11.04 08:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:I would really like to hear a 1 or 2 sentence reason why you can't just slap a 4th bonus on them and call it a day. Are you redesigning their role? Are you changing something else which makes you need to be more cautious with these frigs?
Well, they appear to be buffing destroyers. Something of a role overlap there.
If I were doing it I'd be leery of just making them generally OP, too. It's not as if they're never used at the minute. |
Mystical Might
The Imperial Fedaykin
13
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Posted - 2011.11.04 09:51:00 -
[62] - Quote
Cailais wrote:Really? Im pretty certain it says here that theyre getting fixed. Lets look at that again: "hereGÇÿs an overview of what functionality, systems and gameplay weGÇÿre going to improve and add to. Hybrid weapons balancing Factional warfare Assault ships" Perhaps we misunderstood something ....? Nope - it definitely says weGÇÿre going to improve Assault ships Yup. Says it right there. Back to work CCP its time to deliver. C.
Pretty sure, in that Exact article, it says;
"I want to make it clear that this is not a final list. As we go through design and implementation phases some things may require more work than initially expected and others may not hold water in the design phase and therefore may not make it into this particular expansion."
Learning to read might help your cause. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
751
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Posted - 2011.11.04 09:58:00 -
[63] - Quote
Call me a heretic by all means. But just how long does it take one guy to tweak some numbers across 8 hull types in a single class in the database?
So what if its not absolutely perfect first pass - thats what you have "iterative balancing" for right?
Take an afternoon. Read some threads. Make up some numbers. Give AF's the 4th bonus. Add it to the patch.
Tell the players its a work in progress and may well be tweaked after release but we thought you'd like to play with them now and give us feedback from the live server.
Profit.
I honestly don't understand why this kind of thing has be such a huge song and dance routine every time.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
163
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
Wish they just got that web sesitance bonus at least.
or hell make them immune to EW, that would make them fit a role.
edit:obviously very blunt suggestions |
Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
31
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:16:00 -
[65] - Quote
Mystical Might wrote:Cailais wrote:Really? Im pretty certain it says here that theyre getting fixed. Lets look at that again: "hereGÇÿs an overview of what functionality, systems and gameplay weGÇÿre going to improve and add to. Hybrid weapons balancing Factional warfare Assault ships" Perhaps we misunderstood something ....? Nope - it definitely says weGÇÿre going to improve Assault ships Yup. Says it right there. Back to work CCP its time to deliver. C. Pretty sure, in that Exact article, it says; "I want to make it clear that this is not a final list. As we go through design and implementation phases some things may require more work than initially expected and others may not hold water in the design phase and therefore may not make it into this particular expansion." Learning to read might help your cause. This is a good post, even if I never had the pleasure of downing your Auga 3 Mach (because I'm **** at PvP)
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Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
43
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:20:00 -
[66] - Quote
Mystical Might wrote:
Pretty sure, in that Exact article, it says;
"I want to make it clear that this is not a final list. As we go through design and implementation phases some things may require more work than initially expected and others may not hold water in the design phase and therefore may not make it into this particular expansion."
It's also said that they needed to communicate better on the developing process.
And now people are moaning when they actually communicate in advance?
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Bomberlocks
CTRL-Q
31
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:22:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Call me a heretic by all means. But just how long does it take one guy to tweak some numbers across 8 hull types in a single class in the database?
So what if its not absolutely perfect first pass - thats what you have "iterative balancing" for right?
Take an afternoon. Read some threads. Make up some numbers. Give AF's the 4th bonus. Add it to the patch.
Tell the players its a work in progress and may well be tweaked after release but we thought you'd like to play with them now and give us feedback from the live server.
Profit.
I honestly don't understand why this kind of thing has be such a huge song and dance routine every time. The problem with the AF bonus is that the various AFs have widely differing capabilities, and a single buff to one attribute may make some of them OP and others useless. That said, with the dessie buff making dessies insanely OP, a simple buff to EHP on all AFs may be a good idea. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
115
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:40:00 -
[68] - Quote
EHP buff may be good but would also be the single most boring solution .. just sayin'
I still say they should mix it up and give them a secondary role as support for their friggie brethren: 1st AF (ex. Retribution): Commandship bonus to link, fitting and cap use. 2nd AF (ex. Vengeance): Logistics bonus, range and efficiency (ie. no fitting bonus so S only)
But then again, I am one of the freaks who wants gang-links to be on-grid only or my Guardian given ability to rep anything in system without moving as compensation ... hahahahaha. |
Levi Solomon
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 13:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:Call me a heretic by all means. But just how long does it take one guy to tweak some numbers across 8 hull types in a single class in the database?
So what if its not absolutely perfect first pass - thats what you have "iterative balancing" for right?
Take an afternoon. Read some threads. Make up some numbers. Give AF's the 4th bonus. Add it to the patch.
Tell the players its a work in progress and may well be tweaked after release but we thought you'd like to play with them now and give us feedback from the live server.
Profit.
I honestly don't understand why this kind of thing has be such a huge song and dance routine every time.
I know, right?
Like the whole rockets fiasco that involved changing two or three numbers, yet somehow took YEARS to implement when everyone knew exactly what was wrong and how to fix it and why it made sense.
Is there some bad game design here I'm not aware of? Aren't we really just talking about changing some numbers?
Meeting this winter expansion 'goal' would be so good for CCP and it could be a days work.
Just give them all a 5-10%/lvl Afterburner bonus (and make the Minmatar AFs slightly slower)
if you really want to get creative, give them 8 separate bonuses. With the destroyer buff coming, this should be a no-brainer.
WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
197
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Posted - 2011.11.04 13:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
When you don't consider all the options carefully before you start mucking around... when you don't approach ship balance issues with a seriously well though out plan.... you end up with Super Carriers.
I have no problem with them taking all the time they need with AF's.
They are currently not in that bad of shape, and I understand they don't want to disenfranchise ceptors OR destroyers. In fact, I would'n't be surprised if they want to finish testing destroyers first before moving on the serious AF work, as destroyer stats could very well change.
As we have chanted at them for the last several years... do it right, take your time, don't rush it out. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
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Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2011.11.04 14:07:00 -
[71] - Quote
I'm sure its not just me that has a feeling of deja vu here
Pretty sure I trained Assault Ships 5 a full three years ago based on similar CCP "promises".
Pretty sure* I'll still be looking at Assault Ships 5 and thinking "oh yeah what about that bonus" in another three years.
AFs are fun AND good for certain roles - but that tends to be solo, heavy/hero tackle and not a lot else (yes you can have AF roams but they're rarer than iterated Eve content). Now maybe that's the way they were meant to be but seems to me that there's something missing.
To the average PvPr its not worth doing Assault Ships 5 - better off coming back to it when you have inties/cruisers/BCs/etc at a decent level.
*assuming both I and Eve are still around. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
753
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Posted - 2011.11.04 14:11:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:When you don't consider all the options carefully before you start mucking around... when you don't approach ship balance issues with a seriously well though out plan.... you end up with Super Carriers. I have no problem with them taking all the time they need with AF's. They are currently not in that bad of shape, and I understand they don't want to disenfranchise ceptors OR destroyers. In fact, I would'n't be surprised if they want to finish testing destroyers first before moving on the serious AF work, as destroyer stats could very well change. As we have chanted at them for the last several years... do it right, take your time, don't rush it out.
The point is.
IF CCP actually DID iterative balancing on anything like a sensible timescale then mistakes would be pretty irelevant - ie fixed in weeks NOT YEARS.
This impulse to wait until everything is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT stems in part from terror on the player base that something horrible will be done and not looked at again for YEARS.
But if we are too believe CCP's road to damascus conversion this autumn true Iterative balancing should be on the menu again and that means there is much less pressure to get everything absolutely perfect first time.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
36
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Posted - 2011.11.04 14:28:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:When you don't consider all the options carefully before you start mucking around... when you don't approach ship balance issues with a seriously well though out plan.... you end up with Super Carriers. I have no problem with them taking all the time they need with AF's. They are currently not in that bad of shape, and I understand they don't want to disenfranchise ceptors OR destroyers. In fact, I would'n't be surprised if they want to finish testing destroyers first before moving on the serious AF work, as destroyer stats could very well change. As we have chanted at them for the last several years... do it right, take your time, don't rush it out.
I get what you're trying to say, but it's bullshit and you know it. There simply isn't a realistic 4th bonus that could possibly overpower assault frigates as a group or threaten the roles of interceptors or destroyers. The AF buff has also been on the table for years, including this expansion, so at this point CCP has to have some rough ideas where AFs should fit in the big picture. Whatever it is, I don't think one lousy extra bonus on a a sub optimal frigate platform will unbalance the game.
I think CCP simply isn't touching them because they didn't have the time to do all they wanted and the other rebalance goals had higher priority and larger impact in the game. There aren't that many people flying Afs now and as you said AFs aren't in a horribly bad shape, so it was propably the easiest thing to cut. I can understand all that, but I hate to see another ship group fall in to further obscurity, because so few people fly them, that CCP keeps pushing much needed changes to the class further and further back. I know CCP might look at it right after the expansion launches as they say, but it's something I've heard before and years later AFs haven't seen any changes, so forgive my scepticism on the issue. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2011.11.04 14:28:00 -
[74] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: This impulse to wait until everything is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT stems in part from terror on the player base that something horrible will be done and not looked at again for YEARS.
Exactly - and as Exhibit A..... I present the Dominion Dramiel, the single most overpowered frigate-class ship there has ever been.
We've had it for nearly 2 years now and everyone that knew what they were seeing bought as many as possible before the expansion - I made a killing on them, bought every contract I could at 40-60mill and unloaded them at 95-100.
It was and is overpowered, so why has it taken 2 years to fix it?
The answer must lie in CCPs management structure, nothing else. Doesn't take a C++ programmer to make some changes to a database entry, so it must lie in the "approval" process.
None of which will come as any surprise at all to who reads this - apart from the very new or the clinically naive |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
197
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:00:00 -
[75] - Quote
Hey now, I didn't say I did not want this to happen, or that it wasn't long over due.
I agree that CCP's way of making their priority list for updating ship stats needs to be looked at.
I also agree that when it comes to making adjustment to published ship stats, the actual steps require need to be streamlined (I could be mistaken, but I thought something came out not to long ago say that they were doing this).
On the other hand, I fully understand that there is a process they need to go through to help ensure that the content released to the test server is the right content, and that it is not as quick and easy as changing a number and pushing update. Nor should it be.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
99
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Posted - 2011.11.04 15:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
ok so ishkur should get a drone damage/hp bonus enyo should get a armor hp bonus
wolf should get a rof bonus
jag should get shiled hp bonus
harpy should get a rof bonus
hawk should get a shield hp bonus
vengence should get a armor hp bonus
retribution should loose a low slot gain a mid slot and get a rof bonus |
Schnewitchen
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 16:49:00 -
[77] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:ok so ishkur should get a drone damage/hp bonus enyo should get a armor hp bonus
wolf should get a rof bonus
jag should get shiled hp bonus
harpy should get a rof bonus
hawk should get a shield hp bonus
vengence should get a armor hp bonus
retribution should loose a low slot gain a mid slot and get a rof bonus
I almost exclusively fly frig hulls, and these changes are a bit imbalanced, and really don't promote a "role" for AFs. I think the first thing to do is examine why AFs don't really have niche in fleet or small gang warfare, especially given that they are supposed to be a more specialized frigate.
Maybe reducing the effectiveness of projected effects (neuts, webs, TD, ecm), or a shorter warp distance would give them a more Assault-like feel. |
Dro Nee
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.11.04 19:03:00 -
[78] - Quote
Schnewitchen wrote: I think the first thing to do is examine why AFs don't really have niche in fleet or small gang warfare, especially given that they are supposed to be a more specialized frigate.
They are frigates.
Due to engagement envelopes, buffer size, and benefits of scale, as the gang size increases so does the benefit of bringing cruisers+ hulls (outside of certain special cases).
The fact is AF's already have a roll (and are fairly commonly used) inside a certain niche of PVP. If that PVP niche is underutilized or is generally uncommon, that does not mean there is a problem with AF's. That means there is a problem with people's desire or ability to engage in that type of PVP.
If you make significant enough changes to AF's that they become more preferable than a HAC/T3/BC to the small gang, then either you upset any semblance of balance in the frig + cruiser class (which makes them OP in thier current niche), or you must introduce such a significant downside to them that you basically have to redesign them from the bottom up.
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ArmyOfMe
TEDDYBEARS. Excuses.
45
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Posted - 2011.11.04 19:55:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:We really wanted to do Assault Frigate improvements for Winter 2011 but it will not make it into the first release. We are aiming to make it happen sometime after the initial release but at this stage we simply cannot commit to a date.
This is something that we really want to do so you can be assured that it has not been forgotten. Let me guess, 18 months then?
Considering how long af's have been broken, i can not understand the "not enough time" thingy. Cause im damn sure you have had years ArmyOfMe > i swear my drones have become even more stupid after the patch Wanna Kill > as usually im way ahead of you, my drones have been drooling idiots for ages |
ArmyOfMe
TEDDYBEARS. Excuses.
45
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:01:00 -
[80] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote: We're getting a ****-tonne of fixes this expansion. That some stuff has to be held back to early-2012 is no cause for whining.
We are getting some fixes, not a shittonne of them
And could you please enlighten me on the line between a patch and a expantion, cause to me this looks more like a patch with just 4 added ships in a desperate move to try and please the playerbase ArmyOfMe > i swear my drones have become even more stupid after the patch Wanna Kill > as usually im way ahead of you, my drones have been drooling idiots for ages |
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Denidil
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
117
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:10:00 -
[81] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:
I honestly don't understand why this kind of thing has be such a huge song and dance routine every time.
because falc-erg i mean testing.
it would take them a matter of seconds to make the adjustment, but they need testing bandwidth to make sure it has the desired effect and no undesirables. the % AB speed increase per level got scrapped because someone managed to slap a 10mn AB onto an AF and go 10k/s for example.
Anyone who is blue to DRF are cowards and have failed Eve.
MM Bombers, Best Bombers |
Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
72
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:15:00 -
[82] - Quote
ArmyOfMe wrote: Considering how long af's have been broken, i can not understand the "not enough time" thingy.
What's wrong with them? |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
51
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:25:00 -
[83] - Quote
Cpt Fina wrote:ArmyOfMe wrote: Considering how long af's have been broken, i can not understand the "not enough time" thingy.
What's wrong with them?
theyre fully replaced by t1 cruisers in almost every situation. |
Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
72
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:28:00 -
[84] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:Cpt Fina wrote:ArmyOfMe wrote: Considering how long af's have been broken, i can not understand the "not enough time" thingy.
What's wrong with them? theyre fully replaced by t1 cruisers in almost every situation.
Then how come assaultfrigates are a more common sight in low-sec than about 90% of the T1 cruisers in the game? |
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
4
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Posted - 2011.11.04 20:28:00 -
[85] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:Cpt Fina wrote:ArmyOfMe wrote: Considering how long af's have been broken, i can not understand the "not enough time" thingy.
What's wrong with them? theyre fully replaced by t1 cruisers in almost every situation.
People still fly T1 cruisers? |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
13
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:09:00 -
[86] - Quote
Autonomous Monster wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:Cpt Fina wrote:ArmyOfMe wrote: Considering how long af's have been broken, i can not understand the "not enough time" thingy.
What's wrong with them? theyre fully replaced by t1 cruisers in almost every situation. People still fly T1 cruisers?
Sure.
But only when they want to hunt frigs. |
Selinate
78
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:22:00 -
[87] - Quote
All I want for christmas is a second mid slot on my retribution... |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
52
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:24:00 -
[88] - Quote
Cpt Fina wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:Cpt Fina wrote:ArmyOfMe wrote: Considering how long af's have been broken, i can not understand the "not enough time" thingy.
What's wrong with them? theyre fully replaced by t1 cruisers in almost every situation. Then how come assaultfrigates are a more common sight in low-sec than about 90% of the T1 cruisers in the game?
because theyre more mobile. people can **** around in them. getting kills is a different story.
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Planktal
Kenshao Industries Galactic Acqisition Specialists
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:25:00 -
[89] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote:We really wanted to do Assault Frigate improvements for Winter 2011 but it will not make it into the first release. We are aiming to make it happen sometime after the initial release but at this stage we simply cannot commit to a date.
This is something that we really want to do so you can be assured that it has not been forgotten.
This just means it's not going to happen ever or in like 3 years, normal CCP. Here sanity, nice sanity.....*THWOOK*Got the bastard |
Garbad theWeak
28
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Posted - 2011.11.04 21:26:00 -
[90] - Quote
Then there's the issue -- what's the role of an AF? Heavy tackle? Skirmisher? High DPS?
If its heavy tackle, let's see some tackle bonuses to scram range, web strength, and so on. Intys will still get first lock/speed/disruptor range, AF get stronger locks in closer range with more EHP.
If the goal is combat, let's see some dps increase or an afterburner buff. This way they don't compete with the new destroyers but make excellent anti frigite frigs without making them loloverpowerd vs cruisers. |
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