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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2261
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Posted - 2014.01.07 02:28:00 -
[3841] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:Why? Medium weapons are designed primarily to deal damage to cruisers. Which cruiser has a sig radius of 40m? 40m or 400m - won't matter for HMLs if the target is moving. The only way HMLs have a limited chance of working in PvP is with a 100MN Tengu running nanos and rigors. A target painter wouldn't hurt, either.
As I noted. HMLs are ****. There's still nothing functionally wrong with either fit. The rest of the fit can't help that HMLs are in a sorry place right now. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
102
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 02:39:00 -
[3842] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Mhari Dson wrote: Ok, I'm a carebear and I can see neither of those fits working in pvp except as KM feeders for other people.
You should probably stick to carebearing. The HAM fit is pretty cookie cutter, and the HML is pretty standard, too, other than HMLs sucking balls. Quote: next time set eft to show your applied damage vs a sig of 40 instead of 4,000. Why? Medium weapons are designed primarily to deal damage to cruisers. Which cruiser has a sig radius of 40m?
Medium weapons ARE designed to hit CR/BC optimally, with the exception of HML's wich are designed to optimally hit BS+. I see this as a severe handicap, how could I not?
Most cruisers range between 90 and 150m sig radius, throw velocity in (and who doesn't use an AB or MWD in pvp) and the damage falls off dramatically once you cross about 500m/s.
I'd be satistfied if the performance were equal or slightly below that of their comparable turret counterparts but it's not close. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2714
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 04:12:00 -
[3843] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:As I noted. HMLs are ****. There's still nothing functionally wrong with either fit. The rest of the fit can't help that HMLs are in a sorry place right now. From a PvE standpoint neither is functional, either. Try running both in an L4 and see how long you last... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
543
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 08:42:00 -
[3844] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Maxemus Payne wrote:Our Problems are now gone! 290DPS with my setup... 2058ms 8.2k shields and 24k EHP. What more could you ask for? Without rigors, flares or target painters your applied DPS against an AB target is going to be a fraction of that. Turrets against a TD ennemy will do around 0% dps.
That's called a counter. You can't expect to do full damage on something fitted to counter your weapons... |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
543
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 09:46:00 -
[3845] - Quote
Moonaura wrote:PS. I'm 'pretty' sure we covered the issues around fighting with Caracal's at beyond 50km before, vs. the rails debate, and real world application vs. what you read in EFT doesn't make you right. Because there are... you know, a few issues like... hmmm pointing people and time to target, and damage application to consider, while those fleet stabbers are chasing you around like Mary Poppins in a lesbian bar. Good luck with that. I've tried it. Yes, I've actually FC'd fleets of Caracal's at long range several times, and let me tell you what happened when they nerfed the Heavy Missiles. I stopped doing them. Yeah, it have already been covered extensively : if you are alone and in point range why the hell would you ever use a weapon whose operating range is 50km ?!! You run in the same kind of problem with turrets... In an LR fleet, you're supposed to have tackle and support.
And when I say HML are the best MLR weapon at 50km and above, I talk about applyed damage against a MWDing cruiser.
Also, Stabber Fleet Issue chasing you around like Mary Poppins in a lesbian bar are not only a threat to Caracal but to every T1 cruiser gang so I don't know what point you are trying to make here but that can't be related to missiles. Among the threat to cruisers, you also have BC gang and BS or carrier hotdrop, but those work on everything.
And time to target problem is nothing but a legend of the past when fleets happen to shoot eachother at 200km. Time have passed since then and Tengu and Drake proved it's not a big deal. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1024
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Posted - 2014.01.07 09:59:00 -
[3846] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:As I noted. HMLs are ****. There's still nothing functionally wrong with either fit. The rest of the fit can't help that HMLs are in a sorry place right now. From a PvE standpoint neither is functional, either. Try running both in an L4 and see how long you last... Mhari Dson wrote:Medium weapons ARE designed to hit CR/BC optimally, with the exception of HML's wich are designed to optimally hit BS+. I see this as a severe handicap, how could I not? HMLs aren't designed to optimally hit BS+, they just suck at hitting anything smaller (not exactly a feature).
Also BS is not the size, its more BC. THey can hit BC easily for full damage.
Also .. why people think they shoudl be able to do high damage to a ship usign the moduile to avoid damage ? ( i.e AB) You need to use at least 1 or more module since he invested in to not take that damage. Somethign like a WEB and a TP. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2717
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 10:49:00 -
[3847] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Also BS is not the size, its more BC. THey can hit BC easily for full damage.
Also .. why people think they shoudl be able to do high damage to a ship usign the moduile to avoid damage ? ( i.e AB) You need to use at least 1 or more module since he invested in to not take that damage. Somethign like a WEB and a TP. If you only knew how dismal the HML numbers actually wereGǪ
GÇó HML vs. AB Battleship GǪ 92% GÇó HML vs. AB Battlecruiser GǪ 70%; w/3 rigors GǪ 100% GÇó HML vs. AB Cruiser GǪ 26% (not a typo); w/3 rigors GǪ 39%; w/3 rigors +1 TP GǪ 48%
If you completely strip your tank, run $50-million worth of rigs and a single target painter - you too can have a 143 DPS Caracal. What about a second target painter you say? That gets you another 6%... Imagine having 2 tracking enhancers or tracking computers, full turret rigs and still only being able to apply 54% damageGǪ
Outside of L4 missions I just can't see any use for HMLs unless you're part of a gang that webs targets. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Komodo Askold
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
116
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 13:12:00 -
[3848] - Quote
Oh my...
A weapons system made for hitting smaller ships than yours, effectively, making yourself more vulnerable to ships your size? Interesting.
Burst-like system? Well, could work.
40 seconds reload time? WHAT?? That doesn't even make sense. How do they work, by having guys in spacesuits front-loading the missiles on the launchers one by one?
20 seconds reload time, while keeping 10 seconds to change ammo, sounds much more fair. With 40 seconds, I wonder what is the solo going to do. Ok, I could make 2 groups and alternate firing with reloading, like running 2 ASB's, but it's a weapon system! Not to mention splitting DPS by half.
I again say, try with just 20 seconds. It's quite a long time, but not as desproporcionate as 40. Seriously, what about giving them those 20 seconds on SiSi for some days and let people test? |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
543
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 14:45:00 -
[3849] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:If you only knew how dismal the HML numbers actually wereGǪ
GÇó HML vs. AB Battleship GǪ 92% GÇó HML vs. AB Battlecruiser GǪ 70%; w/3 rigors GǪ 100% GÇó HML vs. AB Cruiser GǪ 26% (not a typo); w/3 rigors GǪ 39%; w/3 rigors +1 TP GǪ 48%
If you completely strip your tank, run $50-million worth of rigs and a single target painter - you too can have a 143 DPS Caracal. What about a second target painter you say? That gets you another 6%... Imagine having 2 tracking enhancers or tracking computers, full turret rigs and still only being able to apply 54% damageGǪ
Outside of L4 missions I just can't see any use for HMLs unless you're part of a gang that webs targets. You are not always required to shoot at AB fast minmatar ships you know...
And exactly like Kagura said, AB is designed to reduce incoming damage. Lower signature than normal is also here to reduce incoming damage. Why are you still expecting full damage on small signature AB Target after all these pages is beyond my understanding.
The best counter to AB is a web. Why don't you try the numbers on a webed AB cruiser ? And a standard cruiser for once, like the Thorax so praised in this thread could be a good start, unlike the AB Stabber which is the absolute worse case you can run into and still completely ignore the fact that this cruiser, while fast, have no tank and poor dps. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
271
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 15:29:00 -
[3850] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Also BS is not the size, its more BC. THey can hit BC easily for full damage.
Also .. why people think they shoudl be able to do high damage to a ship usign the moduile to avoid damage ? ( i.e AB) You need to use at least 1 or more module since he invested in to not take that damage. Somethign like a WEB and a TP. If you only knew how dismal the HML numbers actually wereGǪ GÇó HML vs. AB Battleship GǪ 92% GÇó HML vs. AB Battlecruiser GǪ 70%; w/3 rigors GǪ 100% GÇó HML vs. AB Cruiser GǪ 26% (not a typo); w/3 rigors GǪ 39%; w/3 rigors +1 TP GǪ 48% If you completely strip your tank, run $50-million worth of rigs and a single target painter - you too can have a 143 DPS Caracal. What about a second target painter you say? That gets you another 6%... Imagine having 2 tracking enhancers or tracking computers, full turret rigs and still only being able to apply 54% damageGǪ Outside of L4 missions I just can't see any use for HMLs unless you're part of a gang that webs targets.
Your forgetting precision heavy missiles. |
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
442
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 15:32:00 -
[3851] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Also BS is not the size, its more BC. THey can hit BC easily for full damage.
Also .. why people think they shoudl be able to do high damage to a ship usign the moduile to avoid damage ? ( i.e AB) You need to use at least 1 or more module since he invested in to not take that damage. Somethign like a WEB and a TP. If you only knew how dismal the HML numbers actually wereGǪ GÇó HML vs. AB Battleship GǪ 92% GÇó HML vs. AB Battlecruiser GǪ 70%; w/3 rigors GǪ 100% GÇó HML vs. AB Cruiser GǪ 26% (not a typo); w/3 rigors GǪ 39%; w/3 rigors +1 TP GǪ 48% If you completely strip your tank, run $50-million worth of rigs and a single target painter - you too can have a 143 DPS Caracal. What about a second target painter you say? That gets you another 6%... Imagine having 2 tracking enhancers or tracking computers, full turret rigs and still only being able to apply 54% damageGǪ Outside of L4 missions I just can't see any use for HMLs unless you're part of a gang that webs targets.
I have to agree with Bouth here. I've never been in a short range fight and not been webbed. I've never deliberately used long range weapons systems at short range and I've never used a long range weapons system without someone else at short range doing the tackling. If I am in a small gang that wants to keep range, it would make sense that we took along a couple of recons or electronic attack ships to act as long range tackle and web. In which case, the dps missile (or gun) boats could fit a great deal of damage-enhancing modules.
I think the idea that you're going to build an effective solo ship with long range weapons of any kind is a non starter.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2726
|
Posted - 2014.01.07 15:41:00 -
[3852] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:Your forgetting precision heavy missiles. What you gain in damage application with Precision is offset by lower damage. Plus you're giving up half your effective range. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Maxemus Payne
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION
8
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 01:42:00 -
[3853] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:Maxemus Payne wrote:[Caracal, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x2
Our Problems are now gone! 290DPS with my setup... 2058ms 8.2k shields and 24k EHP. What more could you ask for?
[Caracal, New Setup 2] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x2
504 DPS! 19K EHP! Now you pesky missile spewing demons can stop being greedy and play the game.
Sure, all of us want a ship that can either A. have a tank and do damage or B. have range and speed...but you can't have them all on one ship. Will the HAM Caracal beat a Thorax? Probably not. Will the HML Caracal take 10 years to kill something? Probably. This makes the game fun though because it gives your adversaries the opportunities they need to have their backup arrive. This, in turn, gets you more kills in the long run. Enjoy my setups and get lots of kills. Those wanting to make donations are able to do so at their leisure! This may or may not be satyr. You honestly think that tank is adequate for a brawling cruiser?
That is exactly my point. A. You can't brawl with a HAM setup vs another brawler cruiser. No EHP... The HML setup can survive a lot, but the application of damage is abysmal unless you have TPs and rigs to go with it. I have 18+mil SP in missiles... and find them to be pretty useless. Example: Fighting 4-5 cruisers vs my ScyFy(HML) They have a plated AB Exequror that I spend the better part of 10 minutes trying to kill... I thought at the time that it might be slaved and 1600mm because it was dying so slow...but it was 800mm T2. I eventaully killed it and all of its support but they brought in Geddons and I had to leave grid. This should not be the case... Arthur Aihaken- you are exactly right and I appreciate that you're trying to educate others as to the real shame.
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2729
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 02:52:00 -
[3854] - Quote
Maxemus Payne wrote:That is exactly my point. A. You can't brawl with a HAM setup vs another brawler cruiser. No EHP... The HML setup can survive a lot, but the application of damage is abysmal unless you have TPs and rigs to go with it. I have 18+mil SP in missiles... and find them to be pretty useless. Example: Fighting 4-5 cruisers vs my ScyFy(HML) They have a plated AB Exequror that I spend the better part of 10 minutes trying to kill... I thought at the time that it might be slaved and 1600mm because it was dying so slow...but it was 800mm T2. I eventaully killed it and all of its support but they brought in Geddons and I had to leave grid. This should not be the case... Arthur Aihaken- you are exactly right and I appreciate that you're trying to educate others as to the real shame. 26% damage application with heavy missiles against AB cruisers. That's assuming V skills, of course. If you completely strip your tank for rigors and a pair of target painters, you can increase this to 54%. With almost a billion dollars of +5 missile implants and a pair of Caldari Navy Faction ballistic controllers, you can probably break the 60% mark. However, all it takes is a single sensor dampener to ruin your fun - so you almost need to run a sensor booster or signal amplifier just to ensure you're not dropped to heavy assault missile range. What you end up with is a glass cannon - not really suitable for PvP. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2729
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 10:22:00 -
[3855] - Quote
RLML Analysis As we've been left to our own devices, I thought it was long overdue for a specific RLML analysis. The test platform is a Tengu with V skills, 3 ballistic controllers (2 faction) and no implants. The first bar (dark blue) represents the average DPS with a T2 launcher/faction ammunition when you factor in reloads. Light blue is T2 with Precision ammunition, light grey T2 with Faction ammunition, dark grey T2 with Fury ammunition and finally red Faction with Faction ammunition.
RLML Comparison
Observations: GÇó Precision ammunition actually fares surprisingly well, delivering 45% damage to MWD Interceptors and peaking at 100% damage against AB Destroyers. The only drawback with Precision is that it's half the range of Faction or T1 ammunition, and even with hydraulic rigs you'll be hard-pressed to extend the speed such that MWD Interceptors can't outrun them. Unless you're in a Caracal or Cerebus there's almost no benefit with Precision outside of PvE, and you'd be further ahead with HAMLs. GÇó Fury ammunition really only starts to pay off against medium-size targets, starting with 79% damage against MWD Heavy Assault Cruisers and peaking at 100% damage against MWD Cruisers. Again, there's a range trade-off compared to Faction or T1 ammunition - but it's only 25% less. Again, with PvE Faction ammunition is probably worth the trade-off in DPS for the extended range. GÇó Faction launchers with Faction ammunition outperform T2 launchers with Precision ammunition against Destroyers and Cruisers, especially when you consider the additional range with Faction ammunition. Aside from the cost, there's a huge SP benefit in not having to also train Light Missile Specialization I through V (most will probably only go to IV).
PvE Considerations: GÇó With the 40-second reload time, RLMLs aren't well-suited as a primary weapon. However, they do shine as a secondary "frigate-clearing" weapon in a pair (leaving 3-4 main launchers for primary use). If you assign HAMLs or HMLs as your primary weapon, you have between 40-66 (or 45-75 with Faction) rounds of ammunition to continue applying DPS while the RLMLs reload as well. GÇó RLMLs only require about 2/3's the power, so in many instances this frees up just enough grid to upgrade your tank. On a Tengu this allows 4x HAMLs and 2x RLMLs using the Augmented Capacitor subsystem, so you can squeeze in more DPS. GÇó RLMLs can be pre-equipped with FoF ammunition such that anything that enters stasis web range will be immediately eliminated with one click (FoF will engage and continue to attack the closet targets), which leaves you more time to focus on the primary targets. I call it "pest control". GÇó Lately we're seeing a lot of mission harassers. These fall into two categories: stupid (those who can't figure out that you're not utilizing drones set to auto-aggres) and devious (those who will go suspect by shooting a tractor module, lure you into a limited engagement, warp out and return with something like a command ship or strategic cruiser). In almost every instance I've seen tanked destroyers utilized, probably with at least one warp core. However, what they're not expecting is to get scrammed. Their only recourse is to then try and run the limited engagement out against your weaker primary weapons, but if you have RLMLs they're effectively screwed - because you can apply full damage in a very short timeframe. One Thrasher just escaped with 5% hull remainingGǪ Since we're going to see more and more of this, it's something to start thinking about when working on PvE mission fits.
Other Considerations: GÇó I've mentioned this previously, but with RLMLs there's almost no benefit with utilizing more than two ballistic controllers. I've used three in this example, but the third is only 57% effective - so you're really only gaining 5.7% damage (since RLMLs are already so fast, another 5.7% ROF isn't going to make a huge difference). A fourth is entirely a waste. This effectively frees up 2 low slots, allowing for a damage control and nanofiber. Nanofibers are the best choice, as inertias blow your signature up and overdrives reduce your cargo capacity. GÇó RLMLs have an amazingly high damage application, so you don't really need to utilize rigors or target painters. I mean, you can - but they're already 61.16% effective against MWD Frigates and 80.08% effective against AB Destroyers. Their whole advantage is range, so I'd forego a target painter that can be dampened in favor of a rigor that can't. When fitting rigs, the order is T2 rigor, T1 rigor and then T2 flare. There is only a marginal difference between a T2 flare and T1 rigor, so forego the additional expense on the T2 flare. Also, the way missile mechanics work is that once you beat the target's signature radius rigors start influencing target velocity.
Addendum: In reviewing my data, I forgot to adjust the DRF for Precision and Fury ammunition - so I went back in and revised the chart (Precision is improved by -0.2 but Fury takes a big +0.4 hit). DRF stands for Damage Reduction Factor, and basically the larger the munition the bigger the value is. This didn't really change the analysis, since Precision basically got better and Fury got worse in their respective applications. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
112
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 10:22:00 -
[3856] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:It seems to me that your complaint is with caldari hulls, rather than missiles. I can't comment on that since I think the only caldari ships I ever flew into a fight were a naga, a tengu and a basilisk. Actually my issue is with Devs that can't see how far down the chain the primary Caldari weapon system is. This is made even worse by the types of bonuses inflicted on Caldari ships as compared to other missile boats.
Used to be if you wanted to sit and blap frigates or pods you used RLML, now its a smart bombing battleship.
Quote:Mournful Conciousness Scaremongering nonsense.
Missiles are pretty good. They just not automatic fight-winners.
Stop whining. Really?? If missiles are "pretty good" why do they see no use in current doctrines? |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
443
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 10:43:00 -
[3857] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:It seems to me that your complaint is with caldari hulls, rather than missiles. I can't comment on that since I think the only caldari ships I ever flew into a fight were a naga, a tengu and a basilisk. Actually my issue is with Devs that can't see how far down the chain the primary Caldari weapon system is. This is made even worse by the types of bonuses inflicted on Caldari ships as compared to other missile boats. Used to be if you wanted to sit and blap frigates or pods you used RLML, now its a smart bombing battleship. Quote:Mournful Conciousness Scaremongering nonsense.
Missiles are pretty good. They just not automatic fight-winners.
Stop whining. Really?? If missiles are "pretty good" why do they see no use in current doctrines?
Doctrines are like fashions. i've been in this game for 3.5 years and seen them come and go. Once upon a time, dominixes were nowhere to be seen in fleet warfare. Then one day the dominix got a range and tracking bonus for sentry drones.
Now, this bonus could have been achieved easily previously using omnis and curator drones. But that's not the point. The new hull bonus was the catalyst that spawn an *idea*. Suddenly, sentry drones were useful and the slow cat domi fleet was born...
...several years after it could have been done. During those several years, HML drake and tengu fleets were dominant. Again, not because the ships were necessarily dominant in themselves, but because the time was right for the meme to find footing. The range, damage profile and cost fitted with the aspirations of FCs.
At the moment, the most effective fleet doctrine ought to be ravens with cruise. 150km range with >1000dps, massive alpha and very quick time to target. Couple that with an MJD and you have a wall of death you cannot counter or catch (MJD does not break locks). FCs have not made the mental leap yet, but they will, eventually.
Prior to the missile, drake and hurricane nerfs these systems were too strong and were crowding out any choice. CCPs logs demonstrated this conclusively. The fact that there is now an argument about which ship to take to a fight is a great leap forward. It has opened up the game to experimentation with new strategies and tactics.
This of course means that those people who used to dominate in drakes and hurricanes (all of us) have to re-think. Good! I like thinking and I like the freedom to be creative in my fitting choices.
Eve is a better game because of it.
CCP will continue to monitor the logs. If they see an actual, empirical imbalance in the numbers they will tweak missiles, guns or whatever as they have already done with HMLs and rapid lights. Rapid lights were broken, being too powerful. They were damaging the game so they have been replaced by essentially a different experiment. It's for us to work out whether we find that useful and vote with our fits and our kill mails.
This will generate data, which CCP will use to guide future modifications.
This situation really is light years ahead of the previous debacle, where the game designers simply ignored the numbers and allowed the game to degenerate to the point where the player base was so angry they used their own time and money to pro-actively demonstrate by assaulting Jita and Amarr. Really, people were un-subbing in their thousands and the CEO was forced by the shareholders to do a public about-turn and replace his lead game designer.
The Eve you have today because of that is the best it's ever been.
Never forget.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2729
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 11:03:00 -
[3858] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Rapid lights were broken, being too powerful. They were damaging the game so they have been replaced by essentially a different experiment. It's for us to work out whether we find that useful and vote with our fits and our kill mails. This will generate data, which CCP will use to guide future modifications. "Different experiment" - that's one way to put it. The data I'd be most interested in is not the usage, but the buy/sell information for RLMLs post-Rubicon. How many RLMLs were firesale'd after Rubicon was released, and what kind of -¦% are we looking at for buy and sell orders?
Right now I'm using RLMLs as "pest control" for those twits who insist on shooting my Mobile Tractor Units for kicks (not all of us run straight PvE fits). The ones that can't figure out that Tengus don't have dronesGǪ What's interesting is prior to this week, I almost never had a visitor in any of my missions. Now, I do in at least one out of every two missions. And here I thought I had to enlist with FW to smack frigates and destroyers aroundGǪ
I'd be ecstatic with a shorter reload (20 to 30-seconds) or increased ammunition capacity, but I don't think either will be forthcoming as it would place the average DPS for the new RLMLs ahead of the original RLMLs - and this was intended as a nerf that wouldn't also screw-up LMLs. I'm still holding out some slim hope that they can address the ammunition swap, but I have a sinking suspicion this will never materialize. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
444
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 12:07:00 -
[3859] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:[ I'd be ecstatic with a shorter reload (20 to 30-seconds) or increased ammunition capacity, but I don't think either will be forthcoming as it would place the average DPS for the new RLMLs ahead of the original RLMLs - and this was intended as a nerf that wouldn't also screw-up LMLs. I'm still holding out some slim hope that they can address the ammunition swap, but I have a sinking suspicion this will never materialize.
Yeh the ammo swap is a problem. Difficult to solve.
If you do some missioning in Osmon or any SoE level 4 hub these days you'll find lots of flashies to blap (but watch out for the alt in a logi)
:-)
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2733
|
Posted - 2014.01.08 15:20:00 -
[3860] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Yeh the ammo swap is a problem. Difficult to solve. It seemed like we were being thrown a bone, but it just seemed that way... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2738
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 02:40:00 -
[3861] - Quote
Rise, we've been patiently waiting for an update since late November. Since you've indicated you've now returned from holidays and that the Nestor is basically proceeding as is, this should finally give you some time to address many of the concerns raised here. If you're not going to give us the time of day then please just finally indicate the RLML and RHML are set in stone and lock this thread. Thanks. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
I am disposable
Republic University Minmatar Republic
50
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 06:22:00 -
[3862] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Yeh the ammo swap is a problem. Difficult to solve. It seemed like we were being thrown a bone, but it just seemed that way...
No, we were being told about a bone that we might be thrown someday, maybe. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
2738
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 06:24:00 -
[3863] - Quote
I am disposable wrote:No, we were being told about a bone that we might be thrown someday, maybe. All I know is it feels like we got bonedGǪ I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
448
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 11:22:00 -
[3864] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I am disposable wrote:No, we were being told about a bone that we might be thrown someday, maybe. All I know is it feels like we got bonedGǪ
For all you old boners, you know you're always welcome in my AHAC fleet in a sacrilege right? 20 days to cross-train if you don't have armarr cruiser yet.
One of the easiest ships in the game for a logistics ship to keep alive plus it spews forth a hail of missile death at good range and of any damage type while supporting full tackle and MWD.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
98
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Posted - 2014.01.09 12:10:00 -
[3865] - Quote
This peak damage idea followed by cool down is exactly why thermodynamics was introduced...so use THAT!
You could make modules that simply produce less heat and thus can be more readily used to do burst damage without gimping their tactical use by giving it huge reload times. This improved mechanic would also apply to lasers well, which don't use ammo in the same sense as other weapon systems do.
The modules as designed here is close to worthless as it gimps fits as you can't change fits in the mid of a fight if the situation calls for it. This is not adaptive tactics, this is over specializing fits at a heavy price and even then the numbers look laughable.
Tuning reload and RoF statistics on modules only complicates game design and makes balancing and using the modules a total nightmare.
Use Heat mechanics instead...call it T3 or Anciliary and your golden and it can be applied to a lot of modules quite easily! |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3416
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 15:43:00 -
[3866] - Quote
Hi, time to visit this thread again!
I wanted to let those of you still paying attention here know that we aren't satisfied with the current state of rapid launchers and are expecting to make changes in coming releases to improve the situation.
For now, I don't have details to give you but I want to let you know what we're looking at.
First, and most importantly, it's important to me that this mechanic feels fun to use. It still hasn't been that long since they hit TQ but a lot of the initial feedback is not great on this aspect. It's likely that for Rubicon 1.1 we will make a small adjustment to both RLML and RHML to either give you more active time or less reload time, I'll let you know when that change is pinned down exactly. Going past 1.1 we want to collect more data and feedback so that if we make a larger change (which we are considering) to the system as a whole it's as informed as possible. That larger change would come either in 1.2 or in summer depending on what it was.
Second, I've been working on the ammo swapping issue and will not be able to get in a change for 1.1. Solutions for this have been messy and we aren't satisfied enough with any of them to try and make them fit in this release. As we iterate after 1.1 I want to solve this issue one way or another.
Last, I'm doing some investigation for getting some kind of reload timer work going. Can't say if and when this would happen but it would have enormous value so I'm looking into it. |
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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1668
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 15:54:00 -
[3867] - Quote
Cool There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 15:57:00 -
[3868] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hi, time to visit this thread again!
I wanted to let those of you still paying attention here know that we aren't satisfied with the current state of rapid launchers and are expecting to make changes in coming releases to improve the situation.
For now, I don't have details to give you but I want to let you know what we're looking at.
First, and most importantly, it's important to me that this mechanic feels fun to use. It still hasn't been that long since they hit TQ but a lot of the initial feedback is not great on this aspect. It's likely that for Rubicon 1.1 we will make a small adjustment to both RLML and RHML to either give you more active time or less reload time, I'll let you know when that change is pinned down exactly. Going past 1.1 we want to collect more data and feedback so that if we make a larger change (which we are considering) to the system as a whole it's as informed as possible. That larger change would come either in 1.2 or in summer depending on what it was.
Second, I've been working on the ammo swapping issue and will not be able to get in a change for 1.1. Solutions for this have been messy and we aren't satisfied enough with any of them to try and make them fit in this release. As we iterate after 1.1 I want to solve this issue one way or another.
Last, I'm doing some investigation for getting some kind of reload timer work going. Can't say if and when this would happen but it would have enormous value so I'm looking into it.
So when do i get my missle SP refund as for PVE i can only use HAMs /cruises which is far from ideal. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1085
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 15:57:00 -
[3869] - Quote
Sounds good. As you say, the "fun" aspect is important, and it's simply not much fun to be permanently worrying about the 40 s reload or whether you've got the wrong damage/missile type loaded, and it's currently sufficiently un-fun to generally obscure the actual combat value of the mods, or lack thereof. |
Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
15
|
Posted - 2014.01.09 16:08:00 -
[3870] - Quote
Wild idea fresh of my head instead of playing with that great idea of huge rate of fire with super long reload why not just give rapids a penalty to application stats ( maybe 10%) while reverting them to pre rubi status - biggest grudge with rapid lights we had that they were to good vs all targets ( nearly perfect application vs all targets ) - this would fix the pesky rapid lights but the problem would remain with the oh god awfull application on heavys ( time to buff those finaly ) |
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