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mkint
256
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Posted - 2011.11.04 04:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
ShadowMaster wrote:Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Half wrong
Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.
The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house. ... You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer. Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway. Not really going to argue with how misguided your knowledge is and am just going to post this here. It is a direct quote from CCP t0rfifrans posted on page 4 of the comments thread for the dev blog for the new nebula. Link to original post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=302360#post302360CCP t0rfifrans wrote:The cube maps ( that's the technical term for the nebula textures ) are actually hand crafted, starting with 3d generated clouds, then color-corrected and touched up by artists to remove rendering artifacts and add extra "oomhp" to the renders. Each cube map sees a considerable amount of work. So if we would have wanted more, they would have looked less cool or taken longer to produce, meaning that the artists would be tied up painting nebulas and not fixing lag.... It's always a balancing act. That said, the system we developed alongside rendering the nebulas does allow us to customize each solarsystem, and we will be making use of that in the future, for lore and such. The important part here relating to your post is of course the first line which states "the cube maps ... are actually hand crafted" and of course this other little bit relating to the amount of work which states that "each cube map sees a considerable amount of work." The link is there and you can read his post if you think I have edited something. Bottom line: It is not all done by computer. I also like the argument about how much space it would require for each system to have its own image, estimated at 100GB. Yea no thanks. You know, it makes me wonder... it sounds like they can add "customizations" of the skybox on a per system basis. I wonder if using that system to effectively add more layers to the skybox would be a way to make each system different. So the new nebulae are backdrops for the system specific variances. Now that sounds like it could be the smart solution if it ends up looking good. |

DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
217
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Posted - 2011.11.04 04:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Every system having a different cube map = ~5,000 x ~20 MB = ~100 GB, so no. Actually, according to a post by CCP t0rfifrans each cubemap is actually 3MB. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=303715#post303715
5000 systems x 3 MB = 15 GB Too much work for CCP to implement, but certainly not unimaginable. If you think otherwise, it's time to shift your EVE install away from your 2500+ floppy disks and onto something more modern.
768 constellations x 3 MB = 2.3 GB 0.4% of my notebook's hard drive.
2.3 GB installed, that is.... I don't have any numbers on what size download it will be when compressed.
An optional 2.3 GB download pack to bring different skyboxes for constellations would be excellent.
The high res packs for Crysis 2, Dragon Age 2 and Battlefield 3 are 1.7 GB, 1 GB and 1.9 GB respectively; so it's not like this kind of thing has never been done before  |

Abrazzar
273
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Posted - 2011.11.04 05:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
At least we didn't get Zulu's definition of "seamless".
Though I would appreciate the addition of procedurally generated aspects of systems and constellations put on top of the backdrops to make them more unique and diverse. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
197
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Posted - 2011.11.04 05:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
maybe one day theyll remove star gates and that background is an actual model, |

Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2011.11.04 06:23:00 -
[35] - Quote
One possible intermediate solution is to develop 'some' more skyboxes for busy regions.
Those regions that are highly populated could be given additional boxes, especially towards the edge of the region, in order to deepen immersion.
This could give the impression of passing through the cluster, especially in the case where region changes are jarring.
I'm sure that given time, more boxes will be added to targeted sections of regions but it seems a waste of dev time to do everything now.
Looking forward to the new SISI build later - sneeky suspicion that the current build contains most of the assets so hopefully it'll not be a vast download. |

Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
456
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Posted - 2011.11.04 06:56:00 -
[36] - Quote
ShadowMaster wrote:The important part here relating to your post is of course the first line which states "the cube maps ... are actually hand crafted" and of course this other little bit relating to the amount of work which states that "each cube map sees a considerable amount of work."
The link is there and you can read his post if you think I have edited something.
Bottom line: It is not all done by computer.
I also like the argument about how much space it would require for each system to have its own image, estimated at 100GB. Yea no thanks. Back when it was announced, they claimed one per constellation. And that is easy to generate from the map data and models.
What seems to have happened is that there are artifacts in the renderings which they need to correct manually, and as such is another example of :CCP: fail rather than a requirement of manual labor in general (if they had done things right).
Also explains why they spent so long on getting the nebulas implemented, despite the outsourcing being done long ago. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |

Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
8
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Posted - 2011.11.04 07:05:00 -
[37] - Quote
Don't go into wormhole space which isn't getting updated. You'll emorage when you find out theres 10 regions all with the same background. |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
198
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Posted - 2011.11.04 07:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
Like I said the ourtsourcing they hired only made the model nothing more. Just like the asteriod models and space garbage models all done out of house. It is pertty amazing how a third party can fail to deliver as well ccp did joke about getting a flash light back when they got the rohk done out of house for the trinity expansion.
They could have easily made a script that took a snapshot within the models at the correct locations for every star system however Design Art Director from what I gather is very rententive to detail and simply hates imperfections if it can be avoided. Id would hate to be a technical artist working for him though as everythig is just very hard to get right wtihout comprimising players graphics cards ability to tank heat.
Ill settle for one per region for now as long as they move up to one per constellation eventually. |

Jagga Spikes
Spikes Chop Shop
41
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Posted - 2011.11.04 07:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
considering classic EVE space is about 100 light years across, there really can't be much difference to be seen in the skybox. specific location will matter, and ever-changing difference in distance will be noticed. tho, lets see first and judge second.
personally, i'm looking forward to more patches of black. |

Roime
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
10
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Posted - 2011.11.04 07:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
.... aaaand in the end it's a HUGE improvement making a HUGE difference for sense of location, while looking comeinthepants-good.
So, win
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St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
131
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Posted - 2011.11.04 07:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Wouldn't surprise me if the original source models (not pictures, a nebula sized virtual model which for the complexity of the particle details and art used wouldnt surprise me if were looking at a couple million polys) for the nebulas top half a terrabyte total. You're better off taking a PNG snapshot at that point instead of forcing player who dont even have that much memory or storage space on thier computer.
CCP Atropos wrote:When they went in initially, raw from the rendering farm, they were about 2GB in size, which caused a few issues in client size  https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=303785#post303785
 |

Oberine Noriepa
170
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Posted - 2011.11.04 08:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
St Mio wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Wouldn't surprise me if the original source models (not pictures, a nebula sized virtual model which for the complexity of the particle details and art used wouldnt surprise me if were looking at a couple million polys) for the nebulas top half a terrabyte total. You're better off taking a PNG snapshot at that point instead of forcing player who dont even have that much memory or storage space on thier computer. CCP Atropos wrote:When they went in initially, raw from the rendering farm, they were about 2GB in size, which caused a few issues in client size  https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=303785#post303785 Is he talking about the models or the cube maps though? I imagine the models are much more hefty in size. |

Knoppaz
Rens Nursing Home
3
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Posted - 2011.11.04 08:13:00 -
[43] - Quote
It seems some people have a problem to understand the scale of space. There can't be a nebula just in Jita, Rens or whatever else system. Nebulas aren't just within a system, but there are hundreds of thousands of systems within one nebula, so using a nebula for a complete region seems like a good idea.
Additionally it helps while traveling cause you instantly recognize if you moved into a different region which can be useful. With a smaller scale based on constellations this isn't possible. Sure, it's written in overview, but a regionwide skybox still makes it faster to recognize.
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caldesia
Hedion University Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.11.04 08:39:00 -
[44] - Quote
Being as I haven't left the region in which I run my space business in over 3 years I am rather disappointed it isn't at least per constellation, I can only imagine that one sky box is going to get very old very quick, is there an option to use the old nebula? |

Jokerface666
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
75
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Posted - 2011.11.04 09:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
to OP, sorry but are you really blind or just dumb?? yeah it is ONE skyboy, BUT it is changing depending where you are in that Region (in the midle, you've got the nebulae all around you) at the edge you got the nebulae on one side of the system)
so every system will look a little different from the others.
you really need reading lvl V ------------------------------w00t w00t rapetrain------------------------------ |

mkint
261
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Posted - 2011.11.04 09:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jokerface666 wrote:to OP, sorry but are you really blind or just dumb?? yeah it is ONE skyboy, BUT it is changing depending where you are in that Region (in the midle, you've got the nebulae all around you) at the edge you got the nebulae on one side of the system)
so every system will look a little different from the others.
you really need reading lvl V I haven't seen anything to suggest that this is even remotely true. In fact, the hints are that the skyboxes are flat wallpapers.
edit: does reading lvl V let you read what hasn't been written? |

Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
212
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:02:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jodis Talvanen wrote:Dear CCP art team,
Curious EVE player
I'll think you'll find it's just enough.
Also, stop whining about getting moar! - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |

Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
7
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:05:00 -
[48] - Quote
5 skyboxes per system, let's bring inception into eve ccp. |

BadJoe
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
0
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jokerface666 wrote:to OP, sorry but are you really blind or just dumb?? yeah it is ONE skyboy, BUT it is changing depending where you are in that Region (in the midle, you've got the nebulae all around you) at the edge you got the nebulae on one side of the system)
so every system will look a little different from the others.
you really need reading lvl V
This is true, it's been explained several times. |

mkint
261
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 10:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
BadJoe wrote:Jokerface666 wrote:to OP, sorry but are you really blind or just dumb?? yeah it is ONE skyboy, BUT it is changing depending where you are in that Region (in the midle, you've got the nebulae all around you) at the edge you got the nebulae on one side of the system)
so every system will look a little different from the others.
you really need reading lvl V This is true, it's been explained several times. dev quote or it didn't happen |
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Jovan Geldon
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
142
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Of all the things to whine about, you picked *this*? The ******* SKY? Jesus H. Christ |

Jokerface666
Ever Flow Northern Coalition.
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 10:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
There you go, reading lvl IV should be enough: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3057
Quote: You will now see the different phenomena of space based on where you are in the EVE universe. As you travel closer, you will see the phenomena larger and more detailed, and eventually be inside them. The Cloud Ring, the Cauldron, Vapor Sea. These are large stellar objects that span multiple light years. Magnificent astronomical phenomena that evoke a sense of awe and beauty.
We are close to 2012 stop beeing usless with your 1970's technobrains. ------------------------------w00t w00t rapetrain------------------------------ |

Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
7
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Posted - 2011.11.04 10:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3057
Notably
Quote: There is a sense of location in space
You will now see the different phenomena of space based on where you are in the EVE universe. As you travel closer, you will see the phenomena larger and more detailed, and eventually be inside them. The Cloud Ring, the Cauldron, Vapor Sea. These are large stellar objects that span multiple light years. Magnificent astronomical phenomena that evoke a sense of awe and beauty.
Quote: Region jumps cause the sky to change
Given the large number of solar systems in EVE and the quality we put into these backdrops, we had to make compromise between granularity and quality. We decided that the smallest unit using the same backdrop would be a region. That means 68 unique backdrops. So when you jump between regions is when you notice phenomena being closer, further away or gone.
Edit: Jinx. But I added an extra quote. |

Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
Quote:We decided that the smallest unit using the same backdrop would be a region. That means 68 unique backdrops. So when you jump between regions is when you notice phenomena being closer, further away or gone.
You don't need Reading V to understand this bit.
Same skybox for the whole region. No "subtle changes" or "inside outside a nebula".
Someone just fell into CCP's marketing. |

Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 11:23:00 -
[55] - Quote
I like that the fancy lighshow will be more prominent in High-sec and have cold and cool colors in 0.0. |

StarLite
Aurora Polaris The Babylon Consortium
1
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:32:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jodis Talvanen wrote:Quote:We decided that the smallest unit using the same backdrop would be a region. That means 68 unique backdrops. So when you jump between regions is when you notice phenomena being closer, further away or gone. You don't need Reading V to understand this bit. Same skybox for the whole region. No "subtle changes" or "inside outside a nebula". Someone just fell into CCP's marketing.
Theres 2 things: *) Backdrops *) Nebulae
Those nebula's will be superimposed over the backdrop.
The backdrops will be the same for a whole region, but the nebulae will be different per system. This way you can differentiate per region, but still have every system be slightly different. You will even be able to see if your are jumping towards or away from "that big shiny blue cloud over there" when moving between systems. |

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
38
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:33:00 -
[57] - Quote
StarLite wrote:Jodis Talvanen wrote:Quote:We decided that the smallest unit using the same backdrop would be a region. That means 68 unique backdrops. So when you jump between regions is when you notice phenomena being closer, further away or gone. You don't need Reading V to understand this bit. Same skybox for the whole region. No "subtle changes" or "inside outside a nebula". Someone just fell into CCP's marketing. Theres 2 things: *) Backdrops *) Nebulae Those nebula's will be superimposed over the backdrop. The backdrops will be the same for a whole region, but the nebulae will be different per system.This way you can differentiate per region, but still have every system be slightly different. You will even be able to see if your are jumping towards or away from "that big shiny blue cloud over there" when moving between systems.
I think you got that flipped around
|

Knoppaz
Rens Nursing Home
3
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Posted - 2011.11.04 11:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
StarLite wrote: lots of stuff
This totally makes sense. Distant (other region) nebula can be a backdrop, because they won't change no matter where you are within your actual region. Rendering the nebula of the region you're actually in on top of that backdrop gives enough change so it feels like traveling within the region.
Let's hope that's really is what CCP has in mind.. |

DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
221
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 11:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
StarLite wrote: Theres 2 things: *) Backdrops *) Nebulae
Those nebula's will be superimposed over the backdrop.
The backdrops will be the same for a whole region, but the nebulae will be different per system. This way you can differentiate per region, but still have every system be slightly different. You will even be able to see if your are jumping towards or away from "that big shiny blue cloud over there" when moving between systems.
A dev confirmation or denial would be helpful right now!  |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
80
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Posted - 2011.11.04 12:00:00 -
[60] - Quote
Knoppaz wrote:StarLite wrote: lots of stuff
This totally makes sense. Distant (other region) nebula can be a backdrop, because they won't change no matter where you are within your actual region. Rendering the nebula of the region you're actually in on top of that backdrop gives enough change so it feels like traveling within the region. Let's hope that's really is what CCP has in mind.. That is what CCP had in mind but that is not what CCP implemented. Sounds familiar?
Anyway, to get all the relevant info all you have to do is read yesterday's dev blog on this subject and t0rfi's comments in the corresponding discussion thread. |
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