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Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear CCP art team,
So now we have one unique skybox for the ENTIRE region.
Really? What happened to "going through space"? What happened to "seeing the ship going through the nebula"?
I thought there would be a new nebula for EACH SYSTEM when you said it's gonna be rendered. And everytime you jump, the skybox changes a little, and you can actually SEE the GRADUAL changes in the sky. It's like from A to B you need to go through the space in between. Not like A and then suddenly BAM, B. You know what I mean?
Since they are all rendered in the computer anyway, why is it so hard to put in a few extra GB for the new skyboxes? Don't you just need to setup the camera positions and hit render? Why not unique skybox for every system or at least every constellation?
Curious EVE player |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
813
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jodis Talvanen wrote:Dear CCP art team,
So now we have one unique skybox for the ENTIRE region.
Really? What happened to "going through space"? What happened to "seeing the ship going through the nebula"?
I thought there would be a new nebula for EACH SYSTEM when you said it's gonna be rendered. And everytime you jump, the skybox changes a little, and you can actually SEE the GRADUAL changes in the sky. It's like from A to B you need to go through the space in between. Not like A and then suddenly BAM, B. You know what I mean?
Since they are all rendered in the computer anyway, why is it so hard to put in a few extra GB for the new skyboxes? Don't you just need to setup the camera positions and hit render? Why not unique skybox for every system or at least every constellation?
Curious EVE player
If CCP added every piece of bullshit that everybody asks for, we'd all need Crays. I personally don't want time dilation to kick in just because I aligned.
Cut 'em some slack and let **** evolve....
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Veronica Kerrigan
Hand Of Midas
F0RCEFUL ENTRY
5
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
You do realize that you are jumping upward of several light years between regions? You will still see the old nebula, just farther away. |
Embrace My Hate
Black Horizon.
Test Friends Please Ignore
33
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jodis Talvanen wrote:Dear CCP art team,
So now we have one unique skybox for the ENTIRE region.
Really? What happened to "going through space"? What happened to "seeing the ship going through the nebula"?
I thought there would be a new nebula for EACH SYSTEM when you said it's gonna be rendered. And everytime you jump, the skybox changes a little, and you can actually SEE the GRADUAL changes in the sky. It's like from A to B you need to go through the space in between. Not like A and then suddenly BAM, B. You know what I mean?
Since they are all rendered in the computer anyway, why is it so hard to put in a few extra GB for the new skyboxes? Don't you just need to setup the camera positions and hit render? Why not unique skybox for every system or at least every constellation?
Curious EVE player
I thought they they were implying that If there is a nebula in Jita then anywhere in the forge you can get a different perspective of that nebula. But if you jump out of the forge you won't see that region of space anymore. It would be ******** to be in deep gallente space and have to render this small Nebula way off in the distance in a far region. |
Dirk Magnum
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
38
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
It changes relative to the distance you are from the major features, especially when you move to new regions, which is totally awesome and should help give yourself a better sense of "place" within the cluster. I guess it's supposed to change within a single region as well just to a much smaller degree and the overall theme of the nebula within a single region will be roughly the same otherwise. |
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.03 23:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
To the two gentlemen above,
From what I can understand the dev blog, no, the backdrop will be exactly the same in one region, meaning there will be no difference if you are in Jita or at the other end of the region. You won't see any "slight changes" within a nebula, only sudden "whoa I'm suddenly in another nebula and I can see the nebula I was in from far away" when you jump from region to region. |
Decus Daga
45th TIGERS
Free Beer.
3
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yeah it is region now, but give it time. Its a start at least :) |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
512
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Naive me - and I thought it would at least be per constellation (cba to find the post, but funny how people still thought it would be per system in that thread).
morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
194
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jodis Talvanen wrote:To the two gentlemen above,
From what I can understand the dev blog, no, the backdrop will be exactly the same in one region, meaning there will be no difference if you are in Jita or at the other end of the region. You won't see any "slight changes" within a nebula, only sudden "whoa I'm suddenly in another nebula and I can see the nebula I was in from far away" when you jump from region to region.
Correct in the mechanics, but from the bits I have seen I think that the change will be more gradual than that. Nebulae are not exactly small.
I will admit I would have been happier with it still being one viewpoint per constellation, but I'll reserve judgement until I see the actual effect on the test server.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
196
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
This was to save on downloading space, but who says they cannot flesh it out to per constellation in the future? |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
194
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:This was to save on downloading space, but who says they cannot flesh it out to per constellation in the future?
My thoughts exactly, or add some graphics trick that distorts the image slightly based on coordinates. We'll see.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
196
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Nova Fox wrote:This was to save on downloading space, but who says they cannot flesh it out to per constellation in the future? My thoughts exactly, or add some graphics trick that distorts the image slightly based on coordinates. We'll see.
Well. On the bright side they're not making us download the MODEL. |
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
It was more about saving dev time. The art team has a huge backlog and there are a lot more important things to do. If they had spent time doing constellations instead of regions it would have taken FIVE TIMES longer to get the nebula done, and would have been five times larger a download. As it is they are only getting Gallente and Caldari ships V3'd if all goes well. Would you rather they spent more time on Nebulae or no new ship skins? |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
215
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cuts must be made here and there, in order to gain in other areas.
No individual skybox per constellation?
No matter. We get half the ships V3'd, TiDi and a 'Loot all' button for wrecks. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
513
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Posted - 2011.11.04 00:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nemesis Factor wrote:dev time... The art team...they spent more time on Nebulae ...
Thanks for your inside information. Development of Nebulae was outsourced btw...
morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding! |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
196
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Posted - 2011.11.04 01:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Nemesis Factor wrote:dev time... The art team...they spent more time on Nebulae ... Thanks for your inside information. Development of Nebulae was outsourced btw...
Half wrong
Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.
The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house. |
Oberine Noriepa
168
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Posted - 2011.11.04 01:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
You're seriously complaining about this? Per region really isn't as bad as you think. You will still get the sense that you're traveling through space.
There are 786 constellations in the currently known space of New Eden. Do you have any idea how long it would take to give each of those constellations their own cube map? Furthermore, let's think about the quality of the nebulae maps we're getting. If we assume that the quality for each constellation would be equivalent to the region nebulae maps, then we would be getting an exorbitantly sized download for cube maps alone.
We're getting 68 new cube maps that actually make sense and serve a purpose in EVE. That's a huge improvement from the 30 low resolution and repetitious nebulae that don't make sense in their placement as far as navigation is concerned. |
ShadowMaster
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 01:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:Nemesis Factor wrote:dev time... The art team...they spent more time on Nebulae ... Thanks for your inside information. Development of Nebulae was outsourced btw... Half wrong Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido. The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house.
This guy is correct. Along with that from my understanding the CCP artists also had to spend a fair amount of time touching up the textures that were output for them to look as nice as we see in the dev blog.
The amount of time required to edit all the textures if there was one fore every system would be insane and so not worth it. Give it another 6 years and when CCP does another pass at improving the nebula they will probably develop something that can either do it on the fly our at least output something that does not need to be touched up by hand giving them the ability to do it on a per system basis.
Or if you want it faster feel free to develop a system that can output cube maps from a 3d model in virtual space that look that nice and sell it to CCP. |
mkint
256
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Posted - 2011.11.04 01:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
The dev blog is pretty clear on it, and the comments thread clarifies it even more. Personally, I'd rather not have terrabytes of stupid space-background chewing up my hard disk. They found a decent balance between bloat and granularity. Ideally, they'd figure out a way to procedurally generate them live per-system, but as was also in the comments thread, when they experimented with that, it looked like sh!t. |
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
453
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Posted - 2011.11.04 01:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Half wrong
Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.
The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house.
...
You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer.
Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.
84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
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Demon View
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
28
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
What? 'Better'? How insulting! I demand to be served nothing but 'Best'! |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto.
Veto Corp
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Every system having a different cube map = ~5,000 x ~20 MB = ~100 GB, so no. |
mkint
256
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Half wrong
Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.
The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house. ... You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer. Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.
Hate to burst your "know everything" bubble, but a dev said (I think in the comments thread, or maybe it was in the devblog itself) that artists have to touch up EVERY SINGLE IMAGE by hand to make it look good. Re-read the dev blog, read the dev posts in the thread (there's even a button for it on EVERY FREAKIN' forum page) and THEN come back and show your ignorance. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
196
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Half wrong
Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.
The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house. ... You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer. Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.
Dear Sir, I recommend reading about the toys the developers play with and how inferior the common computer is when it comes to flinging massive resources around let alone putting them to good use. Then read up on the PAINFUL efforts it takes to translate best as possible what these power house computers can do into something that a netbook can run. Heres an inkling, the in house models are several thousand polygons, on client versions are less than 500 each. In house models have 200-500MB Shadowmaps PER SHIP clients deal with less than 1mb per ship.
Wouldn't surprise me if the original source models (not pictures, a nebula sized virtual model which for the complexity of the particle details and art used wouldnt surprise me if were looking at a couple million polys) for the nebulas top half a terrabyte total. You're better off taking a PNG snapshot at that point instead of forcing player who dont even have that much memory or storage space on thier computer. |
Oberine Noriepa
168
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:...
You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer.
Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.
Like many posters on this forum, you feign your "knowledge" proudly. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
196
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
At least I have reasons for knowing more about how graphics in eve are done considering I am trying to be an artist and a game developer one day so anything thats graphics related does pertique my interest as some things I learn from 3-d model rendering techniques CCP pulls off DOES indeed help with my paintings. |
Oberine Noriepa
168
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:At least I have reasons for knowing more about how graphics in eve are done considering I am trying to be an artist and a game developer one day so anything thats graphics related does pertique my interest as some things I learn from 3-d model rendering techniques CCP pulls off DOES indeed help with my paintings.
Are you responding to me? I'm not quoting you.  |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
196
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Posted - 2011.11.04 02:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Sort of just excusing myself for explination on why I know what I know. Unlike random poster over there who does probably some home renderings which my computer takes four hours to render a decent model somone else did. |
ShadowMaster
5
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Posted - 2011.11.04 03:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Half wrong
Only the original model was third partied out by an art stuido.
The technical implimentation of screen shotting the models placing said models in a virutal space and generating backgrounds had to be done in house. ... You show an astounding lack of knowledge about the subject; rendering per-constellation would require minimal extra dev resources, as it would all be done by the computer. Really sad if they decide to go down this route, and if download size of the client was the reason then why not any option to having it download skyboxes on-demand? E.g. how you would go about supporting optional super-high-res backgrounds anyway.
Not really going to argue with how misguided your knowledge is and am just going to post this here. It is a direct quote from CCP t0rfifrans posted on page 4 of the comments thread for the dev blog for the new nebula. Link to original post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=302360#post302360
CCP t0rfifrans wrote:The cube maps ( that's the technical term for the nebula textures ) are actually hand crafted, starting with 3d generated clouds, then color-corrected and touched up by artists to remove rendering artifacts and add extra "oomhp" to the renders. Each cube map sees a considerable amount of work. So if we would have wanted more, they would have looked less cool or taken longer to produce, meaning that the artists would be tied up painting nebulas and not fixing lag.... It's always a balancing act. That said, the system we developed alongside rendering the nebulas does allow us to customize each solarsystem, and we will be making use of that in the future, for lore and such.
The important part here relating to your post is of course the first line which states "the cube maps ... are actually hand crafted" and of course this other little bit relating to the amount of work which states that "each cube map sees a considerable amount of work."
The link is there and you can read his post if you think I have edited something.
Bottom line: It is not all done by computer.
I also like the argument about how much space it would require for each system to have its own image, estimated at 100GB. Yea no thanks. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
197
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Posted - 2011.11.04 04:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Not sure If I'm the one being defended or the guy is just getting burned just for being wrong. Meh... Thanks if its the former.
But yeah It would not surprise me if the source model is astronomically big on the hard drives. |
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