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Supercarrier Rebalance When?

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Deathwing Reborn 55	Posted - 2013.11.14 22:24:00 - [61] - Quote I still say and have said many times the easiest way to balance supers it to introduce tech two normal capitals (carriers and Dreads). This would give you a midway pricepoint between capitals and supers and you can give them massive improvements against fighting super capitals. The original problem with supers was not that they are easy to access or anything like that it was that the jump between capital and super capital was WAY to big and there was not enough put between them to counter them. It would be like if when even first started they had frigates and then introduced battleships and nothing in between. the difference between super and normal capital is the difference between frigate and capital is. While on the subject I think they should have two types of tech two capital. One going for bigger ships and one optimized for subcaps. PS: NOWHERE in here did I mention tech two super carriers or titans.
Batelle Komm susser Tod 349	Posted - 2013.11.14 22:27:00 - [62] - Quote Deathwing Reborn wrote: I still say and have said many times the easiest way to balance supers it to introduce tech two normal capitals (carriers and Dreads). This would give you a midway pricepoint between capitals and supers and you can give them massive improvements against fighting super capitals. no. Fighting is Magic
Deathwing Reborn 55	Posted - 2013.11.14 22:32:00 - [63] - Quote Batelle wrote: no. Very informitive. Prehaps including even the remoteness of a creative response would instill even the slightest ammount of credibility to your response.
Garandras Black Aces Against ALL Authorities 32	Posted - 2013.11.14 22:37:00 - [64] - Quote Just No
Obunagawe 259	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:00:00 - [65] - Quote Deathwing Reborn wrote: Batelle wrote: no. Very informitive. Prehaps including even the remoteness of a creative response would instill even the slightest ammount of credibility to your response. He's right though. At the capital/supercapital level the combatants are limited by the amount of ships that can be reasonably controlled by trusted players, not by cost.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 9431	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:15:00 - [66] - Quote Deathwing Reborn wrote: I still say and have said many times the easiest way to balance supers it to introduce tech two normal capitals (carriers and Dreads). This would give you a midway pricepoint between capitals and supers and you can give them massive improvements against fighting super capitals. Except that nobody is going to fly such a ship in combat if it costs as much as a JF and dies to a DD or two. Twitter: @EVEAndski TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á
iskflakes 715	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:16:00 - [67] - Quote Supercarriers are well balanced right now. Dreads do a lot more DPS, carriers do a lot more rep. Supercarriers do both roles but less well than the specialized ships, which is how it should be. They are very vulnerable to subcaps and dreads. A lone supercarrier cannot defend itself against tacklers, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. It's unfortunate that more expensive ships don't die, but this is due to low risk taking by their pilots and not because the ships are too strong. If you want to balance something, fix titans. They are so weak right now that there is no reason to use them (except for showing off). -
PotatoOverdose Handsome Millionaire Playboys 613	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:19:00 - [68] - Quote iskflakes wrote: Supercarriers are well balanced right now. Dreads do a lot more DPS, carriers do a lot more rep. Supercarriers do both roles but less well than the specialized ships, which is how it should be. They are very vulnerable to subcaps and dreads. A lone supercarrier cannot defend itself against tacklers, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. It's unfortunate that more expensive ships don't die, but this is due to low risk taking by their pilots and not because the ships are too strong. If you want to balance something, fix titans. They are so weak right now that there is no reason to use them (except for showing off). PL alt detected.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5154	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:20:00 - [69] - Quote Leigh Akiga wrote: wrote: Supercapitals were never designed around being something individuals progressed towards. They were supposed to be alliance level assets - extremely powerful, extremely useful, extremely resource intensive. The idea was that alliances would have a handful of supercarriers and one titan. Yeah, working towards one, actually just about ready to have that hull laid down. All so I can defend the mittani's alts against progodlegend There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. "Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5154	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:21:00 - [70] - Quote iskflakes wrote: Supercarriers are well balanced right now. Dreads do a lot more DPS, carriers do a lot more rep. Supercarriers do both roles but less well than the specialized ships, which is how it should be. They are very vulnerable to subcaps and dreads. A lone supercarrier cannot defend itself against tacklers, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. It's unfortunate that more expensive ships don't die, but this is due to low risk taking by their pilots and not because the ships are too strong. If you want to balance something, fix titans. They are so weak right now that there is no reason to use them (except for showing off). Titan support for supercarriers. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. "Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013

The Hamilton Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude 54	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:21:00 - [71] - Quote Just wondering what the downside is if you split Supers up into separate parts that can be locked and focused on by sub-caps(maybe even cruisers and below). Knowing which part is the weakest point to hit with sub-caps to take one down requires "creativity". Caps can't lock these "parts" and would have to still kill them like they currently do. This would tip all the power into sub-caps. Making Supers a great anti-cap, sov capturing ship that is vulnerable to a sizeable fleet of sub-caps, even when they batphone. I know this idea of some sort has gone around the block more times than the village bicycle but could someone point out the problem with this (apart from perhaps a bit of difficulty changing the code)?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5154	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:34:00 - [72] - Quote The Hamilton wrote: Just wondering what the downside is if you split Supers up into separate parts that can be locked and focused on by sub-caps(maybe even cruisers and below). Knowing which part is the weakest point to hit with sub-caps to take one down requires "creativity". Caps can't lock these "parts" and would have to still kill them like they currently do. This would tip all the power into sub-caps. Making Supers a great anti-cap, sov capturing ship that is vulnerable to a sizeable fleet of sub-caps, even when they batphone. I know this idea of some sort has gone around the block more times than the village bicycle but could someone point out the problem with this (apart from perhaps a bit of difficulty changing the code)? this is buffing blobbers that rely on subcaps see: recent fight against progodlegend's superfleet There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. "Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013
oOReikaOo Michiko The Scope Gallente Federation 288	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:47:00 - [73] - Quote Try very hard not to slaughter me here. But why are u only discussing the super cap when that main post clearly stated titans were out of hand too. Steve has been mass produced... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfSDNPFCPfY
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5154	Posted - 2013.11.14 23:52:00 - [74] - Quote oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Try very hard not to slaughter me here. But why are u only discussing the super cap when that main post clearly stated titans were out of hand too. Steve has been mass produced... Titans and supercarriers are both "available" in large numbers. One or two, maybe even THREE titans per alliance :getin: There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. "Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013
The Hamilton Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude 54	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:06:00 - [75] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: The Hamilton wrote: Just wondering what the downside is if you split Supers up into separate parts that can be locked and focused on by sub-caps(maybe even cruisers and below). Knowing which part is the weakest point to hit with sub-caps to take one down requires "creativity". Caps can't lock these "parts" and would have to still kill them like they currently do. This would tip all the power into sub-caps. Making Supers a great anti-cap, sov capturing ship that is vulnerable to a sizeable fleet of sub-caps, even when they batphone. I know this idea of some sort has gone around the block more times than the village bicycle but could someone point out the problem with this (apart from perhaps a bit of difficulty changing the code)? this is buffing blobbers that rely on subcaps see: recent fight against progodlegend's superfleet Could you go into more detail? I'm a crazy wormholer who doesn't see much of the blob these days. I do understand that more ships means more TiDi and likely node crashes. And the nerf to warp speeds should "help" that. But doing this would help reduce the size of the blob required to take one of these down, no?
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 1476	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:11:00 - [76] - Quote There are alot of ideas on how to balance super caps. one would be adding heavy bombers. tech II ABC ships that use captial torps and use a heavy bombs (large damage but low enough ex velocity that only caps would be hurt) the other idea would to make RR mods stack other ideas would be reducing the ehp and cost of supercarriers and make it so they can dock... not sure what to do about titans... personally i would remove thier ability to do any kind of damage and just make them mobile stations that can be moved around. greatly enhance thier logistics ability and such. make the clone bay usefull. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request
Leigh Akiga State War Academy Caldari State 342	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:16:00 - [77] - Quote oOReikaOo Michiko wrote: Try very hard not to slaughter me here. But why are u only discussing the super cap when that main post clearly stated titans were out of hand too. Steve has been mass produced... Titans are alright, even a little useless the way it is now- except the titan is the main way of clearing what is supposed to deal with supercarriers by doomsdaying dreads. The two kinda go hand in hand but the root of the problem is the giant leap in power (EHP and DPS along with repping power) from a capital to a supercapital.
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 1476	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:16:00 - [78] - Quote PotatoOverdose wrote: , and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. . care to point out when this last happened? was it that time pl lost 7 titans or was it the time mosus mihi lost 10ish? totally see how thats an entire fleet of super caps. we all know PL can hold on long enough untill downtime and then they just wont log back in... totally see that as balanced. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request
PotatoOverdose Handsome Millionaire Playboys 613	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:22:00 - [79] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: PotatoOverdose wrote: , and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. . care to point out when this last happened? was it that time pl lost 7 titans or was it the time mosus mihi lost 10ish? totally see how thats an entire fleet of super caps. we all know PL can hold on long enough untill downtime and then they just wont log back in... totally see that as balanced. You quoted the wrong guy mate.
Darth Kilth Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans 146	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:38:00 - [80] - Quote So Idea I discussed with some corp mates. Super Carriers right now, when they attain sufficient numbers, can out tank Battleship fleets until server crash or DT and they can out DPS Dreadnaught fleets before they can pose any significant harm. Their problem is their ability to both tank so much, repair so much and still DPS so much without any real significant drawback. So what about this. Super Carriers get the ability to 'switch' between two modes, in one of them, they can sustain a lot of damage, in the other mode they get all their damage bonuses that allows them to kill other caps as quickly. The result would be fairly obvious, in the defensive mode they can survive the current BS blops incapable of killing them quickly enough, however they wouldn't be able to kill the Dreadnaughts that would be able to kill them in this mode. While if they go in to their DPS mode they would be able to kill the dreads quick enough, they would also become vulnerable to the subcap groups. Not to mention certain alliances would actually be forced to bring in their own subcap fleets to support their capital fleets, instead of sending them in with minimal to no support. It kind of actually reminds me of the current triage on normal carriers but really, something like this could be an idea.

La Nariz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1132	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:45:00 - [81] - Quote Best solution: -Cruiser sized bomber that kills supercaps through regular bomber mechanics or a kamikaze attack. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team.
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 1476	Posted - 2013.11.15 00:48:00 - [82] - Quote PotatoOverdose wrote: You quoted the wrong guy mate. fixed There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 2875	Posted - 2013.11.15 01:01:00 - [83] - Quote TBH the supercaps problem is primarily due to a broken Remote Repair (RR) framework: a.) RR is a force multiplier. 1 RR ship can negate the dps of several ships, and this is even more-so given capital RR modules applied to high-resist ships. b.) RR scales without any sense of diminishing returns. 1 RR can negate the dps of X ships, 2 RR can negate the dps of 2x ships... 100 RR can negate the dps of 100x ships. For subcaps, there is a practical limit where the incoming damage is so high that RR ships don't have the opportunity to apply reps (alpha), but for supercaps this "practical" limit only exists as coordinated titan DD's. Add the supercap abilities (EWAR immune), enormous anti-capital firepower, and the ability to constantly move, and large supercap fleets (with appropriate support) become extremely difficult to take down. The problem is not the firepower or the EHP of the super, but the application of RR to these hulls. Another common example: try taking out a 100 man slowcat carrier fleet. As brutal as this may be, I don't see a solution other than making it so any/all capital ships cannot receive capital RR from anything other than a triaged carrier.
Leigh Akiga State War Academy Caldari State 342	Posted - 2013.11.15 01:38:00 - [84] - Quote So I just glanced at Reddit and saw this which kinda highlights the problem Gizznitt was talking about being no diminishing return for capital remote reps. http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1qna62/pl_slowcats/ After reading the dev blog about the recent live event where CCP said they wanted to lead capsuleers through Curse but were not aware that Doril was a staging system for hundreds of pilots I wonder if they know about this. 200 carriers, all remote repping each other, millions of EHP wadded up into an unbreakable tank and can apply instant DPS via sentry drones. Yeah we are doing this CCP
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 1476	Posted - 2013.11.15 02:22:00 - [85] - Quote Remember if you start putting diminishing returns on rr then conversely you will have to do the same for attacking. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 2875	Posted - 2013.11.15 02:24:00 - [86] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: Remember if you start putting diminishing returns on rr then conversely you will have to do the same for attacking. This is completely false... Diminishing returns on RR means there is eventual attrition of ships in a fight. This is a good thing. Diminishing returns on Damage means there are more and more people surviving the fight... This is a bad thing.
Xen Solarus Inner 5phere 664	Posted - 2013.11.15 02:42:00 - [87] - Quote Obligatory "Death to all Super-Caps!" post. Post with your main, like a BOSS!
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5154	Posted - 2013.11.15 04:18:00 - [88] - Quote they were too super so they removed the ability to use regular drones There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. "Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013
Garandras Black Aces Against ALL Authorities 39	Posted - 2013.11.15 05:08:00 - [89] - Quote I say for random fun.. Bring back the old DD.. Someone drops a blob of supers.. you vcounter with a few Titans and destroy everything on grid friend or foe And everyone has a good laugh
MestariBation Fistful of Finns Bearf0rce One 30	Posted - 2013.11.15 06:32:00 - [90] - Quote Leigh Akiga wrote: So I just glanced at Reddit and saw this which kinda highlights the problem Gizznitt was talking about being no diminishing return for capital remote reps. http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1qna62/pl_slowcats/ After reading the dev blog about the recent live event where CCP said they wanted to lead capsuleers through Curse but were not aware that Doril was a staging system for hundreds of pilots I wonder if they know about this. 200 carriers, all remote repping each other, millions of EHP wadded up into an unbreakable tank and can apply instant DPS via sentry drones. Yeah we are doing this CCP Here we go "SLOWCATS TOO STRONK!!!"



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