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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Adunh Slavy
1366
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 23:54:00 -
[661] - Quote
Why does margin trading even exist? (and yes, I have it trained to level five too) Here we have a skill where some magical omnipresent NPC can snatch ISK from wallets all over the galaxy and enforce a rule.
Margin trading in effect, though convoluted and a bit esoteric, creates a distortion on the time preference for capital. This is a realm where players should have influence, not NPCs.
Provide variable term loan contracts that are capable of long or short term, spanning days to a year, flexible, negotiable, with out with out coupon, and resalable to third parties.
Get the NPCs out of the capital markets and let players run it. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Golda Quark
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 06:31:00 -
[662] - Quote
As soon as a buy order fails once, due to the buyer not having the funds for the transaction, the buy order should expire.
If I desperately need a million widgets, I could place a buy order at several hubs for a million, and leave enough in my wallet to pay for a million. If anyone tried to sell me more after a million had been sold to me, my empty wallet would cause the transaction to fail and the order to expire, so it no longer appeared on the market. First Rule of Aquisition: Once you have their money, never give it back. |
Jessica Danikov
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
325
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 07:22:00 -
[663] - Quote
Forcing buy orders to be 'valid' does not stop the scam. I can put a sell order up in Jita for item X and a corresponding buy order up in Amarr, then pull the buy order when the sell goes through, leaving them out of pocket holding a worthless item.
The only way to hold buy orders to account is to have a way to realize them ahead of efforts to fulfil them. I'll reiterate my previous suggestion- people should be able to convert buy orders into contracts, which effectively puts the buyer's funds up in escrow until the contract is completed, preventing them from being able to whisk the isk away when the scam is completed, but also forcing a speculative seller to put up contract costs and have a reasonable expectation of being able to fill the order (or incur costs for not doing so). |
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc Yulai Federation
32
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Posted - 2014.04.26 11:49:00 -
[664] - Quote
Those who bite on these scams are only victims of their own greed. |
Macs Mayhem
Bunyip Trading
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 12:19:00 -
[665] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: The solution we proposed to the CSM initially was based around the idea that if you didn't have enough money in your wallet to back an order, that order would be cancelled.
I vote for this solution. Its simple. The adverse problems cited by CCP Rise are relatively minor in my opinion. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
189
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 20:55:00 -
[666] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:How long does a margin trade scam buy order remain "available" when they spam local and someone can cancel the order with a 'Verify order" check.
A buy order for 100m isk will have 750k in brokers fees that get lost, so this essentially allows you to hammer the margin trade scammer with repeated broker fees as they have to continualy setup the orders again.
Interesting. I've never seen margin scams spammed on local - I though that was more the "here is a pretty order which I cancel (manually) the moment you buy the overprized junk to fill it."
Yes, if people are spamming local with margin scams the verify order check which cancels the buy order would work well. I guess it's just in my experience that's now how margin scams seem to work.
(As an aside... I am very much torn on this one as I do find messing with margin scammers to be quite entertaining!) |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2014.04.27 00:17:00 -
[667] - Quote
I think buy order should complete with buyer going to negative funds if not enough money available. Never mind that is exploitable |
Eiken Song
DER AUFSTAND
2
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Posted - 2014.04.27 07:55:00 -
[668] - Quote
Give a "magin trade order" simple a other color in the market browser. |
HeXxploiT
Little Red X
15
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Posted - 2014.04.28 17:06:00 -
[669] - Quote
I always thought that the easiest fix would be as follows. If i have a buy order in for 500mil, i only have 200mil in my wallet and the order goes through my wallet will automatically go to minus 300mil. On top of that another possibility could be that all other buy orders are automatically cancelled once one order fails.
At any rate as much as I love utilizing the margin trading feature ccp's definition of margin trading doesn't even come close to what real world margin trading actually is. Why they chose to use the word 'margin" in the first place is beyond me. In the real world if you trade on margin and you don't come through guess what you lose your pants and your car and maybe even your house if that's what it takes to pay off the purchase. There are severe consequences to real world margin trading. It's high risk vs high reward. In eve it's currently no risk vs high reward.
Years ago I had a back & forth with GM Ochlavita on this subject and that persons viewpoint was essentially that the game was not supposed to reflect real world mechanics. I've always disagreed with that notion and believed that it should reflect as such especially with something as important as economics. |
Sigras
Conglomo
736
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 07:54:00 -
[670] - Quote
As a programmer who deals with database issues, I feel that the only way to potentially solve this issue without putting MASSIVE load on the database would be to store some meta data for comparison.
Here is how I would solve the issue:
1. store a double in the database that is the value of the largest single minimum purchase order that each character has active. IE an order with a minimum quantity 10 for 1,000,000 ISK is worth more than an order with a minimum quantity 1 for 5,000,000 ISK
2. Every time that character's wallet decreases check to make sure their wallet is above the double value. (this is actually a really simple thing to do because it is a read only operation so you can set up several sequential read servers to handle it)
2A. if their wallet dips below the stored double then mark that order as "de-listed" and store the minimum purchase amount for that order
3. every time that character's wallet increases check their de-listed orders and re-list them as appropriate (again mainly a read only operation)
4. Every time a character modifies an order or an order gets sold through, check to make sure your double is still accurate.
This is the way to completely fix this issue with the fewest table-joins for the database, and would not be exploitable... Thoughts? |
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Erroch
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
6
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Posted - 2014.04.29 15:44:00 -
[671] - Quote
The more I think about this, the easiest way to allow people to "protect" themselves against Margin scams would be to allow a "show info" on market orders.
Show who gave the order, at this point check the available balance and show if this is fulfillable (or what portion is currently fulfillable for large volume orders.) The percentage above or below market (like the actually sell window does), etc.
Perhaps even give the user the ability to 'block' a seller's buy/sell orders from their view of the market so once you find someone scamming, you can remove any future scams from that person from your market view.
To use the pizza example from earlier, while yes we can order pizza without having the means to pay, the pizza company has the ability to say "No, we're not dealing with Erroch anymore, he's known for writing bad checks"
Being able to see who is undercutting you on the market without selling/buying from them could have some other interesting repercussions as well.
This leaves the ability to pull a quick scam using margin trading intact, but reduces it's viability for those who actually bother to look. |
Akth Eryou
EA Unlimited
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.02 07:12:00 -
[672] - Quote
Quote: The solution we proposed to the CSM initially was based around the idea that if you didn't have enough money in your wallet to back an order, that order would be cancelled. This would still allow traders to benefit from being able to have multiple orders for which they couldn't cover the total. For example, I could have one buy order for a thorax at 5 mil, and another order for a rupture at 5 mil with only 7 mil in my wallet. If my wallet went below 5mil, it would cancel both orders
There are several problems with this solution, the biggest of which is that it puts unwanted pressure on legitimate up-and-coming market traders who need to be able to leverage the ISK they have. There is also some advanced market gameplay around putting up very large buy orders which you can't technically cover, but which also will never realistically get filled. If you guys have feelings either way about this solution please share.
How about this;
Instead of cancelling the order it simply becomes marked in red (similar to the way personal orders are in blue). This lets anyone use the UI without complaining that it's lying to them. Legitimate up and coming traders can still leverage their isk without losing out on broker/contract fees when extending themselves farther into the market.
As for the large orders that will never be completed, assuming the people involved know whats up it would allow them to still put up orders and for people to observe them but be somewhat wary. |
Senjiu Kanuba
Precision Strike Brigade Easily Excited
2
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 15:01:00 -
[673] - Quote
I came up with a bad idea. I only realised how bad it was when I started typing here so I'll leave it for you to be impressed with how bad of an idea I came up with:
BAD IDEA! DO NOT IMPLEMENT! Margin trading allows you to have negative ISK (so the order does get fulfilled). Margin trading is only trainable on non-trial accounts. Characters with negative ISK cannot be deleted by the player.
Why this is bad: I could buy a PLEX, turn a trial account into a non-trial account (700m investment) and train margin trading on 3 characters. Then I move them to some backwater station, bring some obscure module that doesn't have buy orders in the region, create margin-trading buy orders at astronomical values and sell my own item to that character. Repeat 2 more times (3 characters) with increasing amounts of money. I return to where I came from with a few trillion ISK. Or more. Then I forget about that account I created for that with it's characters a few trillion ISK in the negative. Repeat once I want more ISK. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 17:26:00 -
[674] - Quote
I think the original proposal from CSM/CCP was the right one.
As soon as your wallet is unable to cover an outstanding order, the system cancels orders (suggest oldest first) until all outstanding orders have enough wallet to cover them.
Margin Trading isn't about leveraging 100% of your wallet into a small set of buys, it's about leveraging your isk into a higher volume of orders than you could normally have in flight at once.
A character with 10M isk and Margin Trading V can freely make 20 buy orders of 1M each, leaving them with 5M isk still in their wallet. They've leveraged 5M isk into 20M worth of buy orders, but to cover expected purchases, they have to manage how much they leave in their wallet. As those orders start filling, they'll need to turn around and sell stuff to keep their wallet balance sufficiently high.
As soon as their wallet drops below 0.75M isk (amount needed to cover one of their buy orders, since they already had 0.25M in escrow), the database starts cancelling their outstanding orders, until the wallet goes back above 0.75M isk.
To me, the player deciding how far to leverage their wallet is *exactly* what we want players to be managing themselves, and it nearly eliminates scams. It's still possible to setup the buy/sell orders at different locations and manually cancel a buy order as soon as you see the sale go through, but that's much less of an issue than majority of margin trading scams.
On top of this, I'd probably add that as soon as a character goes negative isk, that account stops skill training, and negative ISK characters cannot be deleted. |
Kate Blaze
True Power Capsuleers
19
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 17:31:00 -
[675] - Quote
Why do people care about this? Why does CCP care about this? At worst, few people daily are scammed. Because they are greedy. I say, good for them, learn life lesson. |
Titan Andronicus
Rookie Mission Tax Haven
19
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 18:24:00 -
[676] - Quote
SMH ...
CCP Rise wrote:...I want to make another thing clear about this issue which came up when talking with the CSM:
This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled.
I haven't waded through every single page on this topic, but it would seem sensible to look again at the intention and assessing against reality. Others more knowledgeable of the mechanics than I am have already suggested improvements, but the counterparty should be afforded some protection when the trader has over-extended themselves.
I'd suggest an auto-cancellation of the order, defaulting on the broker fees. 30-day skill queue for a 30-day subscription! Many thanks |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
57
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 13:48:00 -
[677] - Quote
No matter how margin trading is changed, the demand for all goods is the cause of margin trading scam visibility. The more players buy goods, the more easily the economy absorbs risk like scams. Therefore, this scam becoming an issue tells me eve playerbase is shrinking. Actually, ccp loves swinging the nerf-bat any chance they get, so never not balancing is another factor affecting player population. |
Darin Vanar
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 23:23:00 -
[678] - Quote
I don't like the proposed solutions at all.
Some ideas:
A) If you don't have money to cover your buy orders and they do sell, the money could go into your "Bills", along with the items bought. If they are not paid for within, say 2 weeks, the items are returned to the seller since you can't pay your margins.
B) Another idea would be to take the total ISK in margin trading and apply it to your sale orders. That means if you have say 20% higher totals in operating costs than you have money in your wallet, that 20% will be taken off whenever you sell something until the money is paid in total. (If you end up buying more than you can afford.)
(It wouldn't come from your wallet, but your are trading the margins of your sale orders.)
The system could leverage itself based on buy orders and sell orders relationship, and how much you actually get in return in ISK versus actual bought goods. You would have to properly code this system but I think you get the idea. |
Lord Jita
Lord Jita's Big Gay Corp
131
|
Posted - 2014.05.10 15:58:00 -
[679] - Quote
I have the solution.
* Add menu option on right clicking an order -> Verify order legitimacy (or whatever)
* This will then check the order to ensure the funds are available and will tell you in a pop up (a/k/a The broker reassures you this is a legitimate order / The broker cannot verify the legitimacy of this order)
* This will cost the person checking a trivial amount of ISK (a broker fee for verifying order legitimacy, say 10k or something)
* Can add a skill to reduce the "order legitimacy check" fee X% per level
* Optionally make this take X seconds (the broker will get back to you after he researches this order)
Results:
A) Checking order legitimacy is now an ISK sink. CCP loves ISK sinks B) Can add new skill, CCP loves time sinks C) Does not create extra load that checking every single order on the market would D) Still gives margin scammers "a chance" with people that do not make use of the feature
I will now accept your isk donations for solving this problem. |
Ryan Leonard Thorne
Corwan Academy Kanen Federation
2
|
Posted - 2014.07.27 11:47:00 -
[680] - Quote
Well, this strange game mechanic seems to be unknown even to non-noobs, at least none of my corp mates that play for much longer than me told me about that. And after a hauling corp mate and me failed to get some billions for rather rare stuff that I had (bought quite cheap, not from scammer for fantasy prices), still nobody knew how that was possible. We were thinking of bots and exploits and nobody knew or even thought that this can be done in a legal way...
So after a friendly GM sent me to this topic and I was reading and thinking, here's my 0.02 isk:
- As this skill is useful for honest traders, it should not be changed in any way.
- The taxes that you have to pay when buy order fails and you end up having a sell order is the most annoying thing about that, at least for me. If I want to make use of a buy order, I want to make use of that buy order and not placing a sell order. That's stupid. If I have 4 units of something and want to sell 5 units of that something on the market, does that even work and additionally mean that my sell order suddenly turns into a buy order for that one lacking unit of something that I want to sell? I don't think so. At least some kind of warning message with clickable "Continue" and "Cancel" would have been nice.
- I don't consider this as a scam although it's used for scamming. It's just protecting scammers and their alts from any finacial loss.
- Some people call this "market PvP". Okay, but isn't PvP about having the ability to shoot back? And especially in hisec this "market PvP attack" should mean that Concord blows up some hangars or wallets. (jk) But which negative consequences does it have for those "market PvPers"? None. They always win.
- Solution: Introduce some kind of debt obligation. If a margin-traded buy order fails due to lack of isk, seller gets the amount of money that was put into market escrow plus that debt obligation (sum of isk and debt obligation = full price of buy order). The traded goods stay in buyer's hangar in a secure password protected container with a unique name and that can't be moved. Buyer then has 4 weeks to pay his debt. If he does, password for container is mailed to him. If he does not, traded goods are transferred back to seller's hangar and seller keeps the partial amount of isk that he got in the beginning.
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Dally Lama
Republic University Minmatar Republic
100
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Posted - 2014.07.27 14:08:00 -
[681] - Quote
I think the first solution is fine.
Yes, it would remove the ability to place many buy orders with a total sum of ISK far beyond what you have. It would however add the ability to confidently flip sell orders into buy orders when you happen to find them.
So we lose something, but we gain something too. IMO we gain more than we lose.
If you want to market with ISK you don't have, take a loan from a friend that trusts you. EVE is a player driven game after all. Do we really want NPCs playing the role of a bank anyways? They shouldn't offer us margin trading to begin with IMO. New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
77
|
Posted - 2014.07.27 16:44:00 -
[682] - Quote
Complicated solutions leads to exploitation. Easier to just remove it or change it to tax reduction. Is that my two cents or yours? |
Cliverunner
EVE University Ivy League
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.27 17:25:00 -
[683] - Quote
How about this:
- The quantity shown in the market windows for prospective sellers is the number of items there is escrow to cover. (hiding ones that are at 0).
- The market window for the buyer shows a split amount (total amount of order / amount available in escrow).
- Allow buyers to add isk to the escrow of their buy orders.
- Cancel any order that would show up as 0 items for more than 3 days (or whatever period of time is considered appropriate).
Example: I have Margin Trading at V and place an order for 100 DCUs. The system takes 24 DCUs worth of isk from my wallet and puts it in escrow. At this point, the market window for everybody else would show that I am buying 24 DCUs. My windows would show 100/24. As people sell me DCUs, the number showing in the buy order would reduce. If I notice that I am running out of isk in escrow, I can add more to increase the number being shown. If as some point I buy all 24 DCUs and don't notice it within 3 days, then the remainder of my order is canceled (and I loose the brokerage fees).
This should preserve the legitimate usage of the margin trading skill while make sure the UI is always telling the truth. |
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers Empire of Arcadia
16
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Posted - 2014.07.29 08:22:00 -
[684] - Quote
Skipped all the posts and kind of late to the party, but here's my thought: Either (1) Remove the margin trading skill entirely or (2) issue a warning when purchasing the skill book that you can go severely into negative wallet balances if you screw up. Nothing in between, no remorse, and no mercy to people who really feel like taking the risk for option 2 ... means I'd just prefer option 1 to keep things simple. Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost. |
Lothras Andastar
Associated North American Lovers of Dolphins
28
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Posted - 2014.07.29 11:51:00 -
[685] - Quote
Remove Skill. Refund SP, just like Learning Skills.
or, fufill the order, put the person into negative isk. Characters with Negative isk can't be biomassed. |
Careby
211
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Posted - 2014.07.29 12:47:00 -
[686] - Quote
Allowing negative balances from order fills would create opportunity for abuse. Removing the skill would reduce the number of buy orders in the market, which would impact all players, not just those using the skill.
Margin Trading is a useful skill that adds liquidity to the market and benefits almost everyone in the game. For the most part it is used as intended. All that is needed is a minor change to gracefully handle the cases of orders that cannot be filled. I still believe the best answer is to simply not show orders that cannot be filled.
Sarcasm is OP |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4048
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Posted - 2014.07.29 14:10:00 -
[687] - Quote
Careby wrote:Allowing negative balances from order fills would create opportunity for abuse. Removing the skill would reduce the number of buy orders in the market, which would impact all players, not just those using the skill.
Margin Trading is a useful skill that adds liquidity to the market and benefits almost everyone in the game. For the most part it is used as intended. All that is needed is a minor change to gracefully handle the cases of orders that cannot be filled. I still believe the best answer is to simply not show orders that cannot be filled.
To restate an old idea from earlier in this thread:
If, and ONLY if we really need to "fix" the margin trading scam (which I don't believe we need to), the ideal solution is very simple:
Add a "verify order" function.
Simply right click on an order and select "verify order with the broker". The broker will send an EvE mail within a few minutes stating whether the buyer has sufficient funds to fulfill the order's minimum purchase at that point in time. -- If the order does not have sufficient funds, the order is auto-cancelled. -- It costs 1m isk to perform a "verify order" action, as you're taking up the brokers time and gaining info on the buyer's wallet. |
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
77
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Posted - 2014.07.29 15:24:00 -
[688] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Careby wrote:Allowing negative balances from order fills would create opportunity for abuse. Removing the skill would reduce the number of buy orders in the market, which would impact all players, not just those using the skill.
Margin Trading is a useful skill that adds liquidity to the market and benefits almost everyone in the game. For the most part it is used as intended. All that is needed is a minor change to gracefully handle the cases of orders that cannot be filled. I still believe the best answer is to simply not show orders that cannot be filled.
To restate an old idea from earlier in this thread: If, and ONLY if we really need to "fix" the margin trading scam (which I don't believe we need to), the ideal solution is very simple: Add a "verify order" function. Simply right click on an order and select "verify order with the broker". The broker will send an EvE mail within a few minutes stating whether the buyer has sufficient funds to fulfill the order's minimum purchase at that point in time. -- If the order does not have sufficient funds, the order is auto-cancelled. -- It costs 1m isk to perform a "verify order" action, as you're taking up the brokers time and gaining info on the buyer's wallet. For the 1m isk trade off the buy order placer goes into negative for order and gets carbon for good measure. Is that my two cents or yours? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4049
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:02:00 -
[689] - Quote
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Careby wrote:Allowing negative balances from order fills would create opportunity for abuse. Removing the skill would reduce the number of buy orders in the market, which would impact all players, not just those using the skill.
Margin Trading is a useful skill that adds liquidity to the market and benefits almost everyone in the game. For the most part it is used as intended. All that is needed is a minor change to gracefully handle the cases of orders that cannot be filled. I still believe the best answer is to simply not show orders that cannot be filled.
To restate an old idea from earlier in this thread: If, and ONLY if we really need to "fix" the margin trading scam (which I don't believe we need to), the ideal solution is very simple: Add a "verify order" function. Simply right click on an order and select "verify order with the broker". The broker will send an EvE mail within a few minutes stating whether the buyer has sufficient funds to fulfill the order's minimum purchase at that point in time. -- If the order does not have sufficient funds, the order is auto-cancelled. -- It costs 1m isk to perform a "verify order" action, as you're taking up the brokers time and gaining info on the buyer's wallet. For the 1m isk trade off the buy order placer goes into negative for order and gets carbon for good measure.
Why? The buyer has his order canceled and he loses his broker fees. I could see giving them a standings hit to the station's corp and faction (which will result in higher broker fees on future orders) may also be reasonable. However, there is no reason to suddenly drain the buyer's wallet. That just comes across as petty.
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Shoogie
Serious Pixels
119
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Posted - 2014.07.29 16:50:00 -
[690] - Quote
I don't like the idea of having players push an extra button to verify the validity of a market order. It is an extra needless step. New players are either not going to know about it, or use it much more often than they should.
Here are my criteria: * The UI should not lie to players. * The skill should continue to be useful to the players who have trained it. * Performance should not be degraded by too many extra database calls.
My solution: * When someone looks at an item in the market window, check the top buy order in the region. * Calculate how many of that item the buyer can currently buy. Display that number in the quantity box rather than the full amount. * If the number is 0, do not display the line at all, and check the next highest buy order in the region. In this way, players are guaranteed the top buy order displayed on the market is legitimate. (Not necessarily all the rest, though.)
Note, when someone has insufficient funds in their wallet, their buy orders are not cancelled, they are merely hidden until they can add more isk.
One could still do a verion of the margin trade scam by putting up a scam order in Jita, and also a slightly higher legitimate order in a low sec station elsewhere in the Forge. When someone finds your Jita order was false, will they fly out to your low sec station? Will you be able to shoot them and take their high-value cargo before they can sell it?
If guaranteeing one order per region is not enough, this could be expanded to check the top two or three orders. However, I don't think that would be worth the extra database calls and server-side calculations. Guaranteeing the top one is probably all that is required.
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