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Justin Cody AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 138	Posted - 2014.03.27 20:20:00 - [631] - Quote CCP Rise wrote: This is a problem that my team has been hoping to fix for quite some time now. We were prepared to make changes for the Rubicon release but after a lengthy discussion with the CSM we didn't feel satisfied with current solutions and so now we want to open up the discussion to you guys for help. In case you aren't sure what I'm talking about: The Margin Trading Scam exploits the mechanic where a character with the Margin Trading skill can place buy orders and only place a portion of the ISK in escrow. If they then transfer all of their ISK away, the order will fail when someone tries to sell to it, essentially allowing them to make a fake buy order. Usually this means players make purchases that are grossly overpriced with the expectation that they can sell them to the margin trading-based buy order and make money, but instead are left with a pile of items that they will have to take a loss on. I want to make another thing clear about this issue which came up when talking with the CSM: This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled. The solution we proposed to the CSM initially was based around the idea that if you didn't have enough money in your wallet to back an order, that order would be cancelled. This would still allow traders to benefit from being able to have multiple orders for which they couldn't cover the total. For example, I could have one buy order for a thorax at 5 mil, and another order for a rupture at 5 mil with only 7 mil in my wallet. If my wallet went below 5mil, it would cancel both orders. There are several problems with this solution, the biggest of which is that it puts unwanted pressure on legitimate up-and-coming market traders who need to be able to leverage the ISK they have. There is also some advanced market gameplay around putting up very large buy orders which you can't technically cover, but which also will never realistically get filled. If you guys have feelings either way about this solution please share. A second possibility, which emerged from the discussion with the CSM, was built around marking orders in the market interface based on whether or not they were placed using margin trading. This would mean that when you place a buy order you would have to decide whether that would be a 'guaranteed' order or not, and then it would be marked (colored or check boxed or something) in the market interface so that people would know whether there was risk involved in trying to fill the order. This has several problems also, including: making legitimate market activity seem shady, making the interface more confusing, adding clicks for people placing orders and also costing new players money by steering them away from cheaper orders because of fear of scams. It's a complex problem and we want to handle it carefully but we would appreciate any ideas or insights you guys can provide to help us. Thanks! Here's your problem. You're trying to leverage purchasing power with no debt issuance mechanic. So if I were a trader and only had 7M ISK, but I wanted to put up multiple low buy orders...say 3 orders for 3M isk each I would need to borrow that additional 2M isk and of course given time pay it back with interest. This is where the contract system comes in. Enable us to create a debt contract complete with time limit and fixed interest rate (of player determination). This sounds ok except for the "what if I don't wanna pay you" scenario. Well that mechanic is the tough part. I for one would like to see debtors permanently suspect flagged until they either pay-up OR CCP can make their wallets go into the red to pay back the debt to the issuer but also give kill-rights to the debt issuer on the debtor. So allowing someone to buy on margin is more a function of the contract system than of the market imho. You need money in the wallet to buy something no matter what. If you don't have it you can't purchase. And since the market itself doesn't have a credit system...the contract system can make that up for now. And no you shouldn't be able to take out loans from NPCs.
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 109	Posted - 2014.03.27 20:38:00 - [632] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: CCP Rise wrote: This is a problem that my team has been hoping to fix for quite some time now. We were prepared to make changes for the Rubicon release but after a lengthy discussion with the CSM we didn't feel satisfied with current solutions and so now we want to open up the discussion to you guys for help. In case you aren't sure what I'm talking about: The Margin Trading Scam exploits the mechanic where a character with the Margin Trading skill can place buy orders and only place a portion of the ISK in escrow. If they then transfer all of their ISK away, the order will fail when someone tries to sell to it, essentially allowing them to make a fake buy order. Usually this means players make purchases that are grossly overpriced with the expectation that they can sell them to the margin trading-based buy order and make money, but instead are left with a pile of items that they will have to take a loss on. I want to make another thing clear about this issue which came up when talking with the CSM: This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled. The solution we proposed to the CSM initially was based around the idea that if you didn't have enough money in your wallet to back an order, that order would be cancelled. This would still allow traders to benefit from being able to have multiple orders for which they couldn't cover the total. For example, I could have one buy order for a thorax at 5 mil, and another order for a rupture at 5 mil with only 7 mil in my wallet. If my wallet went below 5mil, it would cancel both orders. There are several problems with this solution, the biggest of which is that it puts unwanted pressure on legitimate up-and-coming market traders who need to be able to leverage the ISK they have. There is also some advanced market gameplay around putting up very large buy orders which you can't technically cover, but which also will never realistically get filled. If you guys have feelings either way about this solution please share. A second possibility, which emerged from the discussion with the CSM, was built around marking orders in the market interface based on whether or not they were placed using margin trading. This would mean that when you place a buy order you would have to decide whether that would be a 'guaranteed' order or not, and then it would be marked (colored or check boxed or something) in the market interface so that people would know whether there was risk involved in trying to fill the order. This has several problems also, including: making legitimate market activity seem shady, making the interface more confusing, adding clicks for people placing orders and also costing new players money by steering them away from cheaper orders because of fear of scams. It's a complex problem and we want to handle it carefully but we would appreciate any ideas or insights you guys can provide to help us. Thanks! Here's your problem. You're trying to leverage purchasing power with no debt issuance mechanic. So if I were a trader and only had 7M ISK, but I wanted to put up multiple low buy orders...say 3 orders for 3M isk each I would need to borrow that additional 2M isk and of course given time pay it back with interest. This is where the contract system comes in. Enable us to create a debt contract complete with time limit and fixed interest rate (of player determination). This sounds ok except for the "what if I don't wanna pay you" scenario. Well that mechanic is the tough part. I for one would like to see debtors permanently suspect flagged until they either pay-up OR CCP can make their wallets go into the red to pay back the debt to the issuer but also give kill-rights to the debt issuer on the debtor. So allowing someone to buy on margin is more a function of the contract system than of the market imho. You need money in the wallet to buy something no matter what. If you don't have it you can't purchase. And since the market itself doesn't have a credit system...the contract system can make that up for now. And no you shouldn't be able to take out loans from NPCs. genius - you've just introduced a whole new ingame profession - loansharks - and I foresee loansharks working closely with bounty hunters....... :D For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be.
Methonash Qorranto Caduceus Council Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere 5	Posted - 2014.03.27 21:02:00 - [633] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Here's your problem. You're trying to leverage purchasing power with no debt issuance mechanic. So if I were a trader and only had 7M ISK, but I wanted to put up multiple low buy orders...say 3 orders for 3M isk each I would need to borrow that additional 2M isk and of course given time pay it back with interest. This is where the contract system comes in. Enable us to create a debt contract complete with time limit and fixed interest rate (of player determination). This sounds ok except for the "what if I don't wanna pay you" scenario. Well that mechanic is the tough part. I for one would like to see debtors permanently suspect flagged until they either pay-up OR CCP can make their wallets go into the red to pay back the debt to the issuer but also give kill-rights to the debt issuer on the debtor. So allowing someone to buy on margin is more a function of the contract system than of the market imho. You need money in the wallet to buy something no matter what. If you don't have it you can't purchase. And since the market itself doesn't have a credit system...the contract system can make that up for now. And no you shouldn't be able to take out loans from NPCs. That sounds awesome. +1.
Alexia Marhx Alveare Artifex Genesis II 2	Posted - 2014.03.27 22:15:00 - [634] - Quote ^^ Yeah... Sounds REALLY good!
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 113	Posted - 2014.03.27 22:48:00 - [635] - Quote please CCP - do this! For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be.
ZaBob Twilight Labs Intrepid Crossing 290	Posted - 2014.03.28 02:54:00 - [636] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Here's your problem. You're trying to leverage purchasing power with no debt issuance mechanic. So if I were a trader and only had 7M ISK, but I wanted to put up multiple low buy orders...say 3 orders for 3M isk each I would need to borrow that additional 2M isk and of course given time pay it back with interest. This is where the contract system comes in. Enable us to create a debt contract complete with time limit and fixed interest rate (of player determination). This sounds ok except for the "what if I don't wanna pay you" scenario. Well that mechanic is the tough part. I for one would like to see debtors permanently suspect flagged until they either pay-up OR CCP can make their wallets go into the red to pay back the debt to the issuer but also give kill-rights to the debt issuer on the debtor. So allowing someone to buy on margin is more a function of the contract system than of the market imho. You need money in the wallet to buy something no matter what. If you don't have it you can't purchase. And since the market itself doesn't have a credit system...the contract system can make that up for now. And no you shouldn't be able to take out loans from NPCs. Brilliant! While I don't see the current situation as a problem in need of a solution, your idea is a positive addition -- not a fix, but a whole new opportunity. This would be a whole heck of a lot more interesting than the new hacking minigame. The economic consequences are intriguing. And allowing new(er) players (or less active ones) to borrow may allow them to accomplish things they couldn't otherwise do -- or fail, in interesting ways. I think, though, that for the health of the game, there needs to be something akin to bankruptcy. That is, if you screw up and end up heavily in debt, you should not be left in a situation where the game is basically unplayable, with your only (perceived) option being to quit. One possibility might be, that to borrow 1,000,000 ISK, you have to put 20,000 ISK into escrow when you create the contract. This would limit how deeply you could go into debt, relative to your earning potential. And perhaps you should only be able to create public contracts, with no control over who picks up the contract? So you're at risk of having it picked up, say, by the Goons, who may choose to harass you to try to prevent you from repaying, so they can harass you further?
DetKhord Saisio Seniors Clan 49	Posted - 2014.03.28 06:12:00 - [637] - Quote Buyer beware is often a valid warning, more so for eve markets. Though, I think there should be some way to identify (even if only partially) the validity of a purchase. Since margin trading is a required skill for the scam, identify the seller's margin trading level (I, II, III, IV, V) upon mouse-over of 'suspect' market orders i.e. escrow of <100%. Otherwise, unsuspecting victims that do not learn how to spot the clues they may fall for the scam.
Justin Cody AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 142	Posted - 2014.03.28 12:35:00 - [638] - Quote The idea of requiring a deposit on the loan contract or an object of collateral value would be acceptable if it reduced the interest rate paid on the principle amount borrowed. All of this is fairly complicated and at the end of the day would involve players determining the rate reduction...principally at first through 1 on 1 negotiations. At some point an EVE Credit Corp could be formed of high rollers and all kinds of financial products would be rolled out. The sad fact is that even though ISK is akin to a synthetic drawing right it does not feature the ''block-chain" ledger of bitcoin and other alt-coins that helps to track transaction histories and prevent fraud. So over time there would be standard contracts but if you have enough capital to borrow even larger sums of money (from an existing pool of isk which is essentially the savings of an individual or group) you could get special rates and the like. However the system would not let you create isk out of nothing as a debt issuer. That interest is paid back by a rise in price and ostensibly value. Of course the risk of general price inflation exists through market manipulation and speculation on various assets (ships/minerals, ore, mods, implants, PI, or whatever). This would be a good mechanic to test on SiSi for a year or more before rolling it out on Tranquility where a server rollback is nigh on impossible.
Justin Cody AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 142	Posted - 2014.03.28 12:56:00 - [639] - Quote creating market efficiencies through a debt (margin) mechanic may not work all that well to be quite honest. An economy that is the size of the New Eden Cluster already has (sci-fi RP moment here) debt issued at so many levels and ISK represents a trade currency in the equivalent value of say 100 tonnes of gold per ISK or some conversion rate. The only up-side to a debt mechanic in EVE is that is has to come out of a pool of existing monies and would not be a fractional reserve system. Instead it would be an actual full reserve Hayek-approved lending entity. So a player corporation could never actually lend out more than it has in ISK as when a contract is formed CONCORD or Garoun Investment Bank or whoever would escrow the money (as a service becuase capsuleers are space gods with laser eyes who also ** nuclear tipped warheads) before it is transferred to a player who has accepted the contract. This pass-through makes sure that the money is in-fact in the account. The issue at allowing scamming in this form is too big to go into here but I think the recent RL fines being paid by JP Morgan and others should be a lesson as to the damage that shady lending can do. Intentionally introducing a mechanic like this into EVE has a danger of massive power creep and scales in a non-linear fashion as its tentacles will reach into every part of the market. That's my CCP BEWARE** statement. No matter how clever you are, the issue is that a system is being created. We are gamers...we game systems. Consider the meta, insider trading, contract trading and derivatives that would follow.
Medalyn Isis Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 80	Posted - 2014.03.28 13:33:00 - [640] - Quote I haven't read the entire thread, so am not sure if this idea has been suggested yet. But perhaps implement the system so that firstly, the person creating the buy order can define what percentage they wish to place in escrow, and how much to withhold, up to the maximum that is allowed by the margin trading skill. If, the order is unable to be fulfilled, then the person selling to the sell order will get up to the maximum isk placed in escrow with as many orders being fulfilled as possible. All sold items and remaining isk will be impounded by the broker for failure to supply to the given contract. This way, sometimes a risky investment might backfire, as in real life.
Justin Cody AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 146	Posted - 2014.03.28 19:44:00 - [641] - Quote And of course this mechanic should be rolled in alongside an actual in-game stock market. corporations can then list their shares on an exchange...sadly this would have to be an in-game CONCORD exchange. No player run exchange as that would detract from being immersed in the game. Player sites could have advisory and valuation/arbitrage services but as far as actual exchange trading...that would have to be the New Eden Stock Echange...or NESE. Could introduce skills for lowering per-trade fees, bulk-trading skill, derivative trading skill. Additionally using the contract system...each share essentially being a small contract...you could put in a dividend section with a timed payout (every 3 months based on either current price at time of payout OR a fixed rate based on an agreed price like a bond. Of course that stock with the fixed rate payout would have a no-vote clause and be considered preferred stock. Of course all this talk of markets and the like puts us on the track to say...HEY what about bonds? maybe I'm going overboard but existing systems could be adapted to serve this function. Imagine high volume traders using their algorithms in EVE through the CREST api system. No they wouldn't get instant action like happen on RL exchanges necessarily but simply consider the implications of what you are suggesting.
Justin Cody AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 146	Posted - 2014.03.28 19:47:00 - [642] - Quote Of course you could have all of the exchanges and contracts ride on your own version of the block-chain ledger used by bitcoin. I am mentally at half mast right now thinking of all the glorious...no no I must take a cold shower.
nia starstryder Blitzkrieg. 6	Posted - 2014.03.28 22:05:00 - [643] - Quote As a market tycoon (5) with a margin trading of 4, I frequently use the ability to buy stuff on margin. Currently my sell orders is just under 6 billion, while my buy orders is just under 750k (190k, plus an addition 558k on sell). What this means is what I am short is only a small fraction of my sell orders. When someone is doing the scam and such, they have no sell orders. I believe the amount of your short buys should be a fraction of the sell orders. This will mean that people actually have a good chance of making the money to cover the money your short. To prevent people from abusing this by putting a sell that will never sell, such as a trit for 100 billion, it would have to go by market averages.
Psychoactive Stimulant 84	Posted - 2014.04.03 21:45:00 - [644] - Quote Bump... Also, that idea up there about blah blah interest and loans... that won't work cause you can borrow money from an alt... and just never leave the station. I mean. Why would a known margin scammer who knows he's flagged ever leave? All it takes is an alt.
TheSmokingHertog TALIBAN EXPRESS 205	Posted - 2014.04.04 02:31:00 - [645] - Quote @ Psychoactive Stimulant We should start a thread with links to threads that still have no answers ;)... :D
DetKhord Saisio Seniors Clan 51	Posted - 2014.04.12 09:15:00 - [646] - Quote Swiftstrike1 wrote: Give every character a market rating like on eBay. Expressed as a percentage, it would go down every time one of their orders failed to complete for whatever reason. Players could then make the choice as to whether or not they want to accept a buy/sell order based on the issuer's rating. You could even include an option in the market to "hide all orders where the issuer's market rating is below x%" Thomas Hurt wrote: Automatically cancel any orders where the 'Minimum Buy Volume' * 'Price per unit' is greater than the amount in your wallet ^These would do it for me. Yes, the option is still there for players to scam others. If you are not paying attention, you can still get taken.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders 147	Posted - 2014.04.24 23:34:00 - [647] - Quote Rise, try to get 50 people that have fallen for the 'Margin Trading Scam'. Ask them if they have fallen for it TWICE. When you get 50 NO, you'll have your solution: JUST CLEARLY INFORM NEW PLAYERS ABOUT BUY ORDERS NOT BEING 100% 'CERTAIN'
Yolo Intergalactic Combined Technologies 144	Posted - 2014.04.25 13:26:00 - [648] - Quote Orders that a player is unable to cover for with its current level of wallet should be hidden from market (displayed orange in market orders for self), once the wallet level returns the market order should become visible again. This: A: Solves the problem as a whole. B: Prevents traders from losing 305 buy orders because of temporary flux in wallet levels. - since 2003, bitches
Loraine Gess Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists 225	Posted - 2014.04.25 16:26:00 - [649] - Quote Justin Cody wrote: Here's your problem. You're trying to leverage purchasing power with no debt issuance mechanic. So if I were a trader and only had 7M ISK, but I wanted to put up multiple low buy orders...say 3 orders for 3M isk each I would need to borrow that additional 2M isk and of course given time pay it back with interest. This is where the contract system comes in. Enable us to create a debt contract complete with time limit and fixed interest rate (of player determination). This sounds ok except for the "what if I don't wanna pay you" scenario. Well that mechanic is the tough part. I for one would like to see debtors permanently suspect flagged until they either pay-up OR CCP can make their wallets go into the red to pay back the debt to the issuer but also give kill-rights to the debt issuer on the debtor. So allowing someone to buy on margin is more a function of the contract system than of the market imho. You need money in the wallet to buy something no matter what. If you don't have it you can't purchase. And since the market itself doesn't have a credit system...the contract system can make that up for now. And no you shouldn't be able to take out loans from NPCs. Loan to alt > get CCP to make wallet negative > create money out of thin air Suspect? > Who cares
Archeras Umangiar Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS 2	Posted - 2014.04.25 16:59:00 - [650] - Quote more filters fonctions would be great, and a specific viewable history for the actual selected item in the orders tab, and please for the love of god, improve margin trading via corporation wallet
Cyniac Twilight Star Rangers 188	Posted - 2014.04.25 17:55:00 - [651] - Quote Apologies if this has already been suggested ... don't have the luxury of reading through all the comments. The problem with margin trading which is exploited by the margin trading scam is based on the fact that the market displays a buy order which seems legitimate that then turns out to have no funds behind it - leaving the young trader holding a very highly overpriced set of esoteric junk. One solution which should not significantly affect legitimate margin trading but which would make the margin trading scam impossible is to modify the way buy orders are displayed by only displaying the amount of goods which are actually covered by the wallet balance of the buyer. Example: I have four buy orders for minerals Wallet balance: 150 million isk Buy orders: 100 million isk of tritanium 100 million isk of pyrite 100 million isk of mexallon 100 million isk of isogen At this stage I have enough cash in my wallet to fully cover all my buy orders so they are all fully displayed. 50 million isk of tritanium is sold to me so the situation is as follows: Wallet Balance: 100 million ISK Buy orders: 50 million isk of tritanium 100 million isk of pyrite 100 million isk of mexallon 100 million isk of isogen As I still have enough cash in my wallet to fill the biggest buy order, they are all fully displayed. Now someone comes along and sells me 50 million isk of isogen Buy orders: Wallet balance 50 million ISK Buy orders: 50 million isk of tritanium 100 million isk of pyrite -> but displays 50 million isk because of wallet balance 100 million isk of mexallon -> but displayes 50 million isk because of wallet balance 50 million isk of isogen Even though I still have two buy orders worth 100 million isk, because my wallet balance is only 50 million isk the system displays buy orders as if they were of only 50 million isk. Now lets go for broke. Another 50 million isk of tritanium is sold to me. At this stage the tritanium buy order has been filled and is cancelled and I have a wallet balance of 0 ISK which results in: Wallet Balance: 0 ISK Buy orders: 100 million isk of pyrite -> Not displayed (empty wallet) 100 million isk of mexallon -> Not displayed (empty wallet) 50 million isk of isogen -> Not displayed (empty wallet) Even though the buy orders still exist - they are not visible and thus no one can be scammed - however lets say I had a contract which sold for 70 million ISK. So now people can once again see my orders some fully some partially as follows: Wallet Balance: 70 million ISK Buy orders: 100 million isk of pyrite -> buy displays 70 million ISK (limited wallet balance) 100 million isk of mexallon -> buy displays 70 million ISK (limited wallet balance) 50 million isk of isogen I hope that illustrates the concept - by displaying in buy orders only the amount of goods that can be covered by the effective wallet balance of a player it makes the scam impossible while maintaining the legitimate use of margin trading. At this point someone might ask about server loads etc - that's a legitimate concern but honestly for this to work effectively the wallet balances and displays would not even have to be refreshed in real-time. It's enough to check periodically (say every 15 minutes) and maybe when an order is sold to.
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 3903	Posted - 2014.04.25 18:21:00 - [652] - Quote Cyniac wrote: ..... I've been following this thread pretty closely, and your exact suggestion hasn't been proposed. It is an interesting idea. However, it will also create a lot of extraneous checking. Anytime your wallet changes, all market orders must be updated to show appropriate volumes available. This is computationally expensive when we're refering to tens of thousands of players with hundreds of buy orders and constantly changing wallets. A much simpler, more direct "solution" that you probably missed is to add a 'verify order' function. See a buy order that you want to sell to: Right click, and select verify order. This will check the buyers wallet and if they don't have enough funds to meet the minimum buy order, the order is cancelled. This tool should cost isk (say 1m isk) to verify an order, but it leaves margin trades as they are, and allows players to police themselves (which is the best of all worlds). Note: Education is still necessary. All players should be informed in the tutorials that Buy orders are NOT guaranteed.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 2738	Posted - 2014.04.25 18:34:00 - [653] - Quote I was thinking about this and an odd thought crossed my mind. It concerns this statement: "This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled." Lets take two cases. 1) A market order that cannot be filled. 2) A message in chat. "Send me ISK and I will double it and send it back." In both cases what I see is there due to the action of a player. In both cases what I see is text in a window. In both cases that text is presented to me by the client. In both cases what I see is a lie. Why is one case acceptable and the other not? http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Axe Coldon Coldon Enterprises Axion Bionics 19	Posted - 2014.04.25 20:15:00 - [654] - Quote I too would like to remove the margin trading scam. As it looks legitimate. That is the hardest scam to explain to new people. They don't get that something like that would be allowed. I always have to tell them more then once, "you don't get it, they don't have the money to fulfill the buy order. It will fail when you try to sell to it. I would be for removing margin trading all together if a good fix can't be found. I think you should make the person liable for the short fall and if he can't ban him.
Talon Creed Capital Fusion. Circle-Of-Two 1	Posted - 2014.04.25 20:36:00 - [655] - Quote Is this really a broken mechanic? Its been around for years and as a trader on many toons that use this in a legitimate manner. Its clear that a number of people have been burnt. There are some age old sayings in real life and in EVE. Risk vs Reward If something is too good to be true it usually is People are being scammed because they are making a judgment call purchasing something moving it to another location and trying to sell it and its back firing on them. The bottom line here is that players are making poor decisions. The harsh reality is this, tough luck learn from your mistakes. CCP please leave it as it is, EVE is a harsh cruel environment if you want all fluffiness EVE is not for you.
Cyniac Twilight Star Rangers 188	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:08:00 - [656] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I've been following this thread pretty closely, and your exact suggestion hasn't been proposed. It is an interesting idea. Thanks for the heads up - good to know at least all that typing threw a new concept into the discussion. Gizznitt Malikite wrote: However, it will also create a lot of extraneous checking. Anytime your wallet changes, all market orders must be updated to show appropriate volumes available. This is computationally expensive when we're refering to tens of thousands of players with hundreds of buy orders and constantly changing wallets. Yup - though I generally leave the question of just how much of a load this would create to the folks who handle that - at times somethings can be surprisingly simple. Like I mentioned it would be enough if this was checked/updated on a periodic rather than a continual basis (say every 15 minutes) because it would still make margin trading scams fail. (It would have at most 15 minutes in which to happen and generally the scams would take longer) The verify order solutoin you mentioned - I had seen some variations on it (I did go through the first ten pages of comments) but it seems to be a bit redundant in the sense that people who are aware of the verify order system would probably already be market savvy and unlikely to fall for the margin trading scam, while people who would not know their way around the market would still fall for the scams. So rather than becoming a tool to prevent margin trading scams it would be a tool to verify the orders, probably those of competitors (nothing wrong with that though.)
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 3906	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:19:00 - [657] - Quote Cyniac wrote: The verify order solutoin you mentioned - I had seen some variations on it (I did go through the first ten pages of comments) but it seems to be a bit redundant in the sense that people who are aware of the verify order system would probably already be market savvy and unlikely to fall for the margin trading scam, while people who would not know their way around the market would still fall for the scams. So rather than becoming a tool to prevent margin trading scams it would be a tool to verify the orders, probably those of competitors (nothing wrong with that though.) How long does a margin trade scam buy order remain "available" when they spam local and someone can cancel the order with a 'Verify order" check. A buy order for 100m isk will have 750k in brokers fees that get lost, so this essentially allows you to hammer the margin trade scammer with repeated broker fees as they have to continualy setup the orders again.
Erik Sokarad Republic University Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2014.04.25 22:47:00 - [658] - Quote to stop the margin trading scam, all you really need to do is require escrow to be at least equal to the minimum buy order. so if the minimum buy order is 100 units, then you need to cover at least that much with escrow. the normal traders are not hurt, and the economy can move forward without worrying about that little detail.
Julian Huxley Solomon Bank and Trading Co. 1	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:06:00 - [659] - Quote The proposed solution of requiring enough isk to fill the minimum quantity does not stop margin scams, not at all. If anything, it makes margin scams harder to distinguish from legitimate buy orders. You can either get rid of the skill entirely, and **** off anyone who trades and devastate market liquidity. Or you can do a change like the one I suggested, and make margin scams harder to identify. Or you can go full tard and create an isk printing mechanic. As long as there is a way for me to have less isk than the sum of an order, I can utilize that. I should know, I'm pretty sure I've margin scammed more than any other player over the past few years... I've probably contributed my fair bit toward the hatred directed at this mechanic.
Scion Lex Tungsten Carbonide Asset Management 65	Posted - 2014.04.25 23:14:00 - [660] - Quote tl;dl per usual Fine them. It's that simple. If they are willing to burn a character slot in order to margin scam let them. Now...allow me to redirect your attention to an actual issue; The Shares System Thank you.

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