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MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.23 14:12:00 - [1] In short - why is the bonus this type of Pirate Implant gives so comparatively rubbish compared to all the other sets ?? If I'm missing something, by just looking at the %'s, then an explanation would be greatly appreciated .. MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.25 00:55:00 - [2] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 25/02/2006 00:54:32 No comments at all .. Not even a "I think HALO implants should also receive some form of Cloaking bonus" MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Rak Zaxxon	Posted - 2006.02.25 01:56:00 - [3] Simple solution: swap the bonus percentage of the crystal and halo sets
Elanteri	Posted - 2006.02.25 07:18:00 - [4] Perhaps it's because CCP realizes how overpowered a 53.63% (the bonus the other sets get) reduction to signature radius would be. This would have a more than drastic effect on the time it took someone to target you AND on their ability to hit you. I think that percentage point for percentage point, reducing signature radius has a much greater effect than any of the other implant bonuses. Unfortunately, there's probably no directly quantifiable way to compare and balance the different pirate implant bonuses - it is, however, regulated somewhat by the market; have you ever compared the price of Halo implants to say, Crystal implants?
Tachy	Posted - 2006.02.25 07:29:00 - [5] Halo implants come from Thukker Tribe agents. Thukker Tribe has to apply low pressure in large quantities in all aspects. Halo implants have to apply low pressure in large quantities too. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.25 17:48:00 - [6] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 25/02/2006 17:53:44 Originally by: Elanteri Perhaps it's because CCP realizes how overpowered a 53.63% (the bonus the other sets get) reduction to signature radius would be. This would have a more than drastic effect on the time it took someone to target you AND on their ability to hit you. I think that percentage point for percentage point, reducing signature radius has a much greater effect than any of the other implant bonuses. Unfortunately, there's probably no directly quantifiable way to compare and balance the different pirate implant bonuses - it is, however, regulated somewhat by the market; have you ever compared the price of Halo implants to say, Crystal implants? Point-1: The Talisman set get a 38% max bonus compared to 21% of the Halo set. Point-2: Yes a full Halo set costs roughly half that of Crystal, Slave & Snake but that's clearly player driven due to the comparative rubbishness of the aforementioned Halo's. Point-3: A pilot kitted out with one of the Crystal, Slave & Snake sets has a 50+% advantage over a pilot who isn't. Compare this to a mere 33% difference for the Halo set. * Note: All figures are approximations and of course I'm comparing High Grade implants. * MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Elanteri	Posted - 2006.02.25 21:35:00 - [7] That's an interesting comparison you make: the ~50% advantage a pilot with the Snake, Crystal, or Slave sets has over a pilot lacking the implants, compared to the 21% of the Halo set. I'll admit I didn't think about it that way, and some balancing may indeed be necessary. However, if comparing the sets to EACHOTHER, I think they are in line - as I said before, point for point, a reduction in signature radius has a greater effect on combat than any other of the set bonuses. It still might be unbalanced though, and I don't think any amount of math will be able to prove it either way. The attributes that are affected by the various sets are so different that I think the only real way to compare their effectiveness would be to plug them in some pilots and have them go at it. Maybe, the pirate implants aren't designed to be exactly equal? IMHO, the Crystal set is far better than the Slave set, and they're both better than the Talisman set. If an attempt was made to fix the Halo implants, I think the devs would have to reevaluate all of them. In short, I have no good answer for you .
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2006.02.25 21:54:00 - [8] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 25/02/2006 21:58:11 Originally by: Tachy Halo implants come from Thukker Tribe agents. Thukker Tribe has to apply low pressure in large quantities in all aspects. Halo implants have to apply low pressure in large quantities too. Angel actually, which use Jovian technology fyi... Anyhow, Yeah the Halo does need a boost. Out of all the sets its the worst one to have (Hence why it sells for 1/4th the cost of the other sets). The bonus should be upped to 30-40%, 21% isnt enough and 54% is to much. (~35% reduction sounds good to me tbh) Originally by: Elanteri Maybe, the pirate implants aren't designed to be exactly equal? IMHO, the Crystal set is far better than the Slave set, and they're both better than the Talisman set. If an attempt was made to fix the Halo implants, I think the devs would have to reevaluate all of them. That depends really, Slave and Talisman both have their uses with the right setups. Halo on the hand is hardly useful, sure the 21% smaller signature is cute (Say on an interceptor) but i would prefer 54% more speed or even the 54% extra armor. For that matter, if youre gonna fly a Bs the 20% reduction isnt all that useful, not anywhere near as useful as Extra Speed, Srmor or Shield boost. Each implant set has a ship setup type it goes great with, Talisman is awesome if you fly Vampire ships a lot, Slave is quite handy if youre complex tanking or in fleet battles where the amount of armor HP define how many extra shot you can get off before you have to warp, Crystal is great for just about everything that involves shield tanking (Hence its 'the best one') and snake is great for all around usage whether its hauling, capital ship piloting, general combat or interceptor combat its always great to be 54% faster. I cannot think of single situation where a 21% reduction in sig is more useful then any of the ones above. A secondary bonus could be useful too, perhaps reducing the Targeting Signature radius on your guns to make them more accurate towards people with low signature radius? ------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.26 00:02:00 - [9] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 26/02/2006 00:06:11 Something else I've just noticed/realised is the significance of commonly used modules that directly affect Signature Radius .. Items such as: Target Painters MicroWarpDrives Now although Snake implants equally suffer this level of interference upon Velocity they have 2 key advantages: A higher % bonus to start with More relevant & influential skills So in summary - BuHu !! /me prays that somehow this plea to improve Halo implants reaches Zrakor's eyes MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Tachy	Posted - 2006.02.26 11:28:00 - [10] @Joshua: I don't know about others, but I got Halo, and only Halo implants from Thukker Tribe agents. But who cares for Angels handing out the Halo implants when the Thukkers do too? Thukker Tribe having to apply low pressure in large quantities obviously supercedes all other rules. Thukker Tribe is the abomination of the abomination called Minmatar Republic. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Maric	Posted - 2006.02.27 11:01:00 - [11] I dont think it is unbalanced. Percentange number can look "smaller" then numbers of others implants, but fact is that those numbers can hardly be compared. IMHO the SNAKE implants are most useful. They give benefit on ANY ship type and ANY situation, no matter of activity (PVP, PVE, carebearing, trading hauling...) HALO is second best (IMHO, once again). Give benefit on ANY ship type. Good for PVP and PVE. CRISTAL and SLAVE are NOT for any ship type. They are for shield or armor boosting and also good for PVE and PVP. TALISMAN is good only for PVP. Clearly, benefits are very diferent. HALO is more versatile then CRISTAL, SLAVE and Talisman. Now lets go back to numbers. Most sets give ~50% MORE something. HALO gives ~30% LESS something. This is the main diference. Now try to compare it. When You use, lets say, SLAVE set, Your "new" armor is about ~1/3 of the whole armor. When You use HALO, You are "lacking" ~1/3 of signature radius. In fact, HALO gives the same bonus as other implants, it is just matter of percentage matematics which makes HALO looks bad. Main disadvantage of HALO is not their bonus, it is lacking of skills and more implant which reduce signature radius even more. Most other atributes have aditional skills and implants.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.02.27 11:56:00 - [12] Halo does 20% less, not 30%. Compared to Slave set, what do you prefer: 50% extra armor bonus that is gone once an opponent chewed through it, or 20% less chance to get hit (by equal-sized guns) and thus increase your tanking ability? Imo, the Halo implant set is vastly underrated.
Maric	Posted - 2006.02.27 12:25:00 - [13] Edited by: Maric on 27/02/2006 12:38:39 I prefer Halo. Bonus applies equaly on any ship I fly. What if I suddenly realize that Raven is better for my current problem then Apoc? A few hundred milion ISK worth implants becomes worthless. TBH I prefer Snake even more P.S. F4ze, You are right about 20%. It makes comparation a bit diferent. And I still prefer Halo more.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.27 13:20:00 - [14] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 27/02/2006 13:23:09 Originally by: F4ze Halo does 20% less, not 30%. Let me explain it again so you'll understand .. The Halo max bonus of 20.7% means that a pilot without this Implant set has a SIG RADIUS (100/79.3) = 1.26 26% larger than a pilot with them. MOOCIFER Medusa/Alpha Oldtimer
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.27 13:32:00 - [15] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 27/02/2006 13:32:07 I prefer Halo. Bonus applies equaly on any ship I fly. What if I suddenly realize that Raven is better for my current problem then Apoc? A few hundred milion ISK worth implants becomes worthless. TBH I prefer Snake even more P.S. F4ze, You are right about 20%. It makes comparation a bit diferent. And I still prefer Halo more. Then you switch Jump Clone as intended .. MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Farjung	Posted - 2006.02.27 13:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Tachy @Joshua: I don't know about others, but I got Halo, and only Halo implants from Thukker Tribe agents. But who cares for Angels handing out the Halo implants when the Thukkers do too? Halo implants are angel implants, in the same way as snake implants are serpentis implants. Yes, you can get them from some affiliated alliances such as Thukker Tribe and Intaki Syndicate, but they'll cost you more LP per implant than they would from their source alliances.
Bazman	Posted - 2006.02.27 13:52:00 - [17] I use LG Halo implants, through the fact that i found lots of them myself, and well, they utterly suck. Give me Snakes or Slaves please. I also had LG-Slave set once, gratiously deprived of them by a single frigate with an EWAR mod, man they we're much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, more useful than Halos ----- Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:25:00 - [18] The effect of the Halo implants is pale when you compare it to the other implant sets when you lok at the bonus to ship staying capabilities. The 20% reduced signature isn't enough to make a real difference. At the points where the signature reduction becomes critical, the other implant set's effect will just blow it out of the water hands down. There are a few circumstances where you would love to have a smaller signature, but the Halo set doesn't give enough reduction. The difference to other implant sets is comparable to a basic thermal plating in relation to a thermal hardener II. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Arakasai	Posted - 2006.02.27 20:40:00 - [19] Why do you believe they were meant to be balanced against each other? Lets assume for a second that they were. Why do you believe balance between the sets means merely that the percentages should be the same? Why do you believe that the percentages mean the same thing? There is versatility balancing as well. The two, arguably, most power sets both require a specific module build on a subset of ships. This particular set useful on most builds.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.02.27 21:05:00 - [20] Edited by: Gronsak on 27/02/2006 21:08:12 simple math. would you choose a +50% dmg mod implant or a -50% rof inplat? you think they are the same? no the rof DOUBLES your DPS while the dmg mod increases only 50%. a similar thing applies with this. -------------------Sig----------------------- Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2006.02.27 23:23:00 - [21] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 27/02/2006 23:25:48 Originally by: Tachy @Joshua: I don't know about others, but I got Halo, and only Halo implants from Thukker Tribe agents. But who cares for Angels handing out the Halo implants when the Thukkers do too? You called them Thukker Implants, i simply corrected you as theyre Angel. Originally by: F4ze Halo does 20% less, not 30%. Compared to Slave set, what do you prefer: 50% extra armor bonus that is gone once an opponent chewed through it, or 20% less chance to get hit (by equal-sized guns) and thus increase your tanking ability? Imo, the Halo implant set is vastly underrated. 20% is actually not all that much, youd be better of with 50% Speed or 50% shield boost or hell 40% stronger nosf for extra cap to tank with. ------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.28 00:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Arakasai Why do you believe they were meant to be balanced against each other? Lets assume for a second that they were. Why do you believe balance between the sets means merely that the percentages should be the same? Why do you believe that the percentages mean the same thing? There is versatility balancing as well. The two, arguably, most power sets both require a specific module build on a subset of ships. This particular set useful on most builds. /me hasn't seen anyone ask for the Halo bonus to be 50% - just that it should be looked at again and certainly raised a 'bit' MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Nifel	Posted - 2006.02.28 13:50:00 - [23] There's a very easy test to see how utterly useless the Halo set is. Punch in some numbers on the tracking guide and then have a sig radius on the target with and without the halo set. Then do the same for the snake set. The halo set rarely reduced damage received while the snake set lowers damage ranging from almost nothing to nearly 100%. "We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago." RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.02.28 14:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Nifel There's a very easy test to see how utterly useless the Halo set is. Punch in some numbers on the tracking guide and then have a sig radius on the target with and without the halo set. Then do the same for the snake set. The halo set rarely reduced damage received while the snake set lowers damage ranging from almost nothing to nearly 100%. /me did this too (but forgot) - thanks for pointing it out to others who as yet do not understand MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.02.28 18:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Maric I prefer Halo. Bonus applies equaly on any ship I fly. What if I suddenly realize that Raven is better for my current problem then Apoc? A few hundred milion ISK worth implants becomes worthless. Worthless? Scorpions nearly always armor tank, EW Ravens armor tank, nearly all frigates/cruisers/interceptors in the game armor tank. Even if I was a strictly Caldari pilot I would still pick Slave over Halo.
Relenco	Posted - 2006.02.28 22:28:00 - [26] I have not read this whole thread but lets try this on for size :) for example lets take a chracter with interceptors level 4 and a full set of high grade halo implants, should be pretty good eh? now lets put him in a crow (what i fly) that gives him a signature radius of 25... thats pretty cool? well not its not thats what he would have in a stilletto or a claw if he did not have the halo set. how can this be? the halo set cant even make one interceptor with not a very good signature radius better then one with a good one. the bonus is so crappy that someone in a crow with a full set is no better off (sig radius wise) then someoen with no halo's in a claw or stiletto?? i mean wtf? (dont argue that a crow with a full set of the armour ones does not have as much armour as a crusader... cause you are forgetting sheild hp's) clearly the implants need some help... need some loving, only problem i can see if you give it a 50% reduction is battleships flying around with 200 odd sig radius can you say uberness? so perhaps the solution is not to increase the sig radius bonus on the Halo's but to add another bonus to them asswell? perhaps reduced mass? (make the set very good at getting away... smaller ship radius and warps faster) at any rate something needs to be fixed with these implants. (that or reduce the other implants, hell even a crystal with a 20% bonus would be better imo then a halo with 20%)
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.03.01 12:23:00 - [27] well halo has its uses, for instance tempest with 270m sig. But in the end, any other set is far better. I use no guns... i smack to death.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.03.03 09:24:00 - [28] Halo Implants still suck - no silky Blood patch has made me forget MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Lexor SLice	Posted - 2006.03.03 18:52:00 - [29] /signed, they really need a boost.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.03.03 19:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Anyhow, Yeah the Halo does need a boost. Out of all the sets its the worst one to have (Hence why it sells for 1/4th the cost of the other sets). The bonus should be upped to 30-40%, 21% isnt enough and 54% is to much. (~35% reduction sounds good to me tbh) listen to the man sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin
4 LOM	Posted - 2006.03.03 22:17:00 - [31] Yep they need a boost badly... i was kinda hopeing that would slip into blood... but in eve hopeing usually does not work.
Lexor SLice	Posted - 2006.03.09 19:42:00 - [32] BOOST!! to the top
4 LOM	Posted - 2006.03.09 20:06:00 - [33] I know asking for a responce from a dev is dispicable but well i really want one. i would just love a definitive NO we are not planning on changing them or a Maybe we are looking into it reply. i just want to know cause untill someone says NO i will still think there is a chance it could happen and i really want to know either way.
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.03.16 00:32:00 - [34] Buhu still .. MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.21 10:59:00 - [35] Signature radius reduction is hard to directly measure, so is often percieved as an irrelevant stat. But I really don't agree - Halos are some of the best pirate set implants out there - their bonus is subtle, true, but a 20% reduction on _everyone_ trying to lock you, _every_ missile hit, and on the tracking calculation (which isn't linear, but even so...). It's like half a tracking disruptor that's always on, and works against missiles too. And more importantly, this is about the only way to get a lower sig in most ships. Surely that is an indicator of how important it is. -- We are recruiting We sell carriers.
SavageThrash	Posted - 2006.03.21 12:29:00 - [36] To be honest, until i try them i dont know if the halos really give a great boost or none at all but, if the devs do plan to fix it, please increase the halo and not lower the others as this will cause a great uproar from all the people who paid 2+ bill for a high grade crytal set. Thats also one reason i havent invested in any pirae imps because if they get nerfed or are goign to i cant sell them or anything, so i could spend 2 bill and then they get nerfed and are only worth 500 mill. Wewt
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.14 02:01:00 - [37] I just found this thread when I was making a research on the varous implant types. Snake Set: Background: Precision light missiles have 4500m/s with maxed out skills (3000m/s x 1.5). Target navigation prediction, doesn¦t compensate enemy speed by percentage, but increases explosion velocity(that is why the Nighthawk Bonus for example sucks). Let¦s assume a Crow pilot is flying 4500m/s. He will receive full damage. With a full Snake Set, Crow speed increases to 4500m/s x 1.54 = 6930m/s. Damage get¦s reduced by 98% (97.9826% to be exact). It will receive only 2% damage from the light missiles. I know of Crow pilots able flying 10000+m/s, won¦t say much about that. Halo Set: On Frigates and Ceptors, useless, since they draw their defence from speed, not sigradius; locking is insanely fast due to MWD anyway. On Cruisers: The fact you get locked in 2.5 instead of 3 seconds is a real great advantage, yeah... <.< Speed increases your evasion probability on a linear basis, with greater speeds it increases exponentialy on dramatic scales. Signature Radius reduction by HALF/50% on the other hand, merely moves the hitprobability-at-distance-curve about 17% towards the left(run simulator if you don¦t believe me). This will probably increase your evasion probability at all possible ranges by about 5% maybe. If halving Signature radius decreases your damagereceival by only 3-10%, you can imaging how "beneficial" reducing Sigradius by 20% probably is. kind regards, Skeltek ps: The formula all you forumdiscussors and calculator-programmers were looking for for so long: Damagereduction by Velocity: Damage received by missile: Dr=(1/2)^((targetvelocity-explosionvelocity/1024)¦) So Damage Reduction is: DR=1-Dr
Sir Bart	Posted - 2006.10.18 22:06:00 - [38] Originally by: Tachy @Joshua: I don't know about others, but I got Halo, and only Halo implants from Thukker Tribe agents. But who cares for Angels handing out the Halo implants when the Thukkers do too? Angel belt rats drop them, which is where I thought they all came from. If you can get them from doing missions too, great.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.19 06:03:00 - [39] Halo can be nice on afterburner INTY setups or in cases where getting the first lock is highly imporant....but that's pretty much it. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Kathira Gallente Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:23:00 - [40] I am not a pirate. But when a pirate attacks someone he had to lock fast and should be locked not so fast. The one who locked faster can Jam ... ECM ... all that overpowered stuff earlier than his opponent. So the discussion about how much you will be hit by your enemy is .... When 2 identical Doms will start attacking each other ... the Dom with the halos has the first and maybe the important advantage. In this moment its not very important that the other Dom can fly a bit faster ( without beeing webbed ) or that the armor is a bit higher ( cause he cant make damage while he is electronical blocked in targeting his enemy ). So you can't only look at the raw numbers..
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.20 08:27:00 - [41] To be totaly honest, you could apply such an argumentation on almost any module that improves a certain attribute in a certain situation and make it look deciding. There are so many factors in battle that count, and I just will not believ that you will be able to make that half a second of locking time advantage always be a deciding factor, especialy not, when you are busy clicking elsewhere in most cases. No good justification for making it look worth billions imho. kind regards, Skel
Syllke Aronstein Gallente Le Moulin Rouge	Posted - 2006.10.24 14:42:00 - [42] A decent bonus to the Halo set would be to increase the scan resolution stat of the ship as well as reducing the sig radius, this would not overpower the ship's damage avoidance, which is probably what the devs are worried about, but would make them comparable to the other sets, and fitting into the high tech favouring bracket that the Angels sit in. It would make the implant set choice for recon, covert ops and EW specialists. Who fall back on the snake set just now for their roles.
Skeltek Caldari Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.24 23:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Syllke Aronstein A decent bonus to the Halo set would be to increase the scan resolution stat of the ship as well as reducing the sig radius, this would not overpower the ship's damage avoidance, which is probably what the devs are worried about, but would make them comparable to the other sets, and fitting into the high tech favouring bracket that the Angels sit in. It would make the implant set choice for recon, covert ops and EW specialists. Who fall back on the snake set just now for their roles. I can only agree on that. Futher decrease of sigradius would overpower it for smaller ships while having less lockingtime advantage for bigger ships. Even if the set would reduce the sigradius by 70%, it would only affect missiles greater than your shipclass size. Not much effect on turrettracking though. The currently insane price of the Halo highgrade set is derived from it¦s rarity, not from it¦s usability. Adding sensorresolutionbonus of 20% and/or maybe a VERY small 3-5% bonus to EW-strenght would be fitting I guess. Although a 5% EW bonus would make people believe it¦s overpowered or something and let the price gauge to hell and heaven. Small advantage, big priceincrease.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.10.25 02:16:00 - [44] eeep... maybe not the EW bonus however, i dont know how much the coders wanted the sets to be purely defensive. so maybe something like a bonus to sensor strength might have more of a chance (. signature radius _does_ have a huge impact on anything smaller than a BC; the smaller the merrier. as stated before, it has influence on more than just plain damage "input" - and there's only two other thingies with which one can reduce it; that weird gang assist module and the interceptor-ship-bonus (well... that and the simple choice to pick smaller ships and/or minmatar) so i wouldn't exactly fiddle with the amount. just an addition in some other field would be my preference

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