Artillery begs to differ.

Maelstrom fit with 8 1400mm Howitzer IIs (Republic Fleet EMP L) and 2 Gyrostabs: 10692 alpha.

Raven Navy Issue fit with 8 Cruise Launcher IIs (Caldari Navy Scourge) and 5 Ballistic Control Systems: 6227 alpha.

Raven NI fit with 8 Torpedo Launcher IIs (Caldari Navy Scourge) and 5 Ballistic Control Systems: 7469 alpha.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the term "unmatched", but they seem pretty matched. Actually, they seem quite inferior. Perhaps that's why we see artillery used in alpha roles and not missiles. You know, just maybe.

Missiles, as a rule, actually tend to have moderate alpha for their DPS. Both cruise missiles and torps have rather high, in their bracket (they beat everything but artillery for alpha), but HAMs have a fairly high refire rate (6.4 seconds baseline), as do rockets (4 seconds baseline). Both Heavy and Light missiles have fairly long base refire rates (12 seconds), but they also suffer a much stronger DPS drop over their short-range variants, compared to turrets, since they don't have tracking to differentiate (and they fubared the damage application comparison for short versus long missiles).

might also be the delay of alpha damage from missiles

Ok, needs to be said: Shooting HACs with torps is like shooting them with 1400 arty up close.
If youre doing either, you brought the WRONG tool for the job.

Missiles are fine.

welll

to be frank.... get a hac with AB on, but web it with a 3 webs ashimu and target paint it with 3 TP rapier. Andyour torps will do full damage :P

interesting thread.

I apologise in advance that this may be slightly off topic (but related nonetheless). But from what i gather from this thread rockets are a decent weapon system and will do good dps whilst cruiser sized missiles and above are a bit meh? Is that the jist of it?

I only ask becuase ive been eyeing the vengeance for quite some time and im loathe to dedicate approx a years worth of skillpoints getting all the rocket support skills to V if rockets are actually meh aswell.

Thanks in advance.

Good= Rockets, light missiles, cruise missiles.
Average and/or overspecialized: HAM. (the hull really makes HAM's.)
Shite and/or overspecialized: rlml, rhml.
Shite: HML.

As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time. The only exception to this are the small, and close range medium systems, due to faster payload delivery. Edit: Actually real poor tracking of lower signatures makes the small sized missile launchers the more potent ones too.

As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time.

That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong. You can say that missile travel time is bad for sniping (that's why the Naga don't have missiles BTW), but you just can't say it for pvp as a whole as there have been countless proofs of the contrary over the past few years.

Damn there even was a Caracal doctrine in null with RLML when LM are the slowest LR missiles.

So stop with this legend please.

That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong. You can say that missile travel time is bad for sniping (that's why the Naga don't have missiles BTW), but you just can't say it for pvp as a whole as there have been countless proofs of the contrary over the past few years.

Damn there even was a Caracal doctrine in null with RLML when LM are the slowest LR missiles.

So stop with this legend please.

I really feel like 'that homeless guy staring off into oblivion talking to himself' when I reply to your posts.

to be frank.... get a hac with AB on, but web it with a 3 webs ashimu and target paint it with 3 TP rapier. Andyour torps will do full damage :P

As a rule of thumb consider missiles to be poor for PvP due to travel-time. The only exception to this are the small, and close range medium systems, due to faster payload delivery.

That is completely wrong. There have been 3 years of Drake and Tengu to prove that wrong.

I said right in my post what the exceptions are. Repeating what I said in a negative tone does not change that. Especially when making examples of the missile types I call out to be, the exceptions to this issue. These drakes you speak of are of a past long gone fitting the narrowest engagement profile in history. Everything in your post I have addressed. I really feel like 'that homeless guy staring off into oblivion talking to himself' when I reply to your posts. Take the effort to reread my post and you will find me agreeing on most things. Except for the drake which was never the 'go to boat' for everything. It was OP in blobs, and was starting to see counters shortly before they and the 'HML' got nerfed into oblivion. Don't turn that into me saying drakes didn't need nerfed.

Edit: The exception didn't include cruise missiles, but I had hoped that me noting them as "good" would be clear enough.

Damage type selection. (( Even better than auto cannons ))

F.0.F.'s to allow for damage v.s. heavy ECM groups.

That's part of the problem. Most of the best missile boats don't have selectable damage types, because you lose 20% of your damage by swapping to anything other than Kinetic.

This is still far better than everything else in game. AC always have at best 80% of true selectable damage because of the mixed damage type of their ammo (they always have a bit of kin/explo damage) and T2 AC ammo are explo/kin without choice.

The only ships actually losing some damage selection with missiles are the 10%/lvl bonused ones, and yet that's still far better than what hybrid and laser have, in front of T2 resists particularly.

Since you mentioned the rainbow damage on minmatar ships if you say 25% unwanted damage type. You get a higher reduction over 25% which in PvE comes down to between 25% to 50%<(elite mobs) less damage over 25%.
All in all, kinetic and thermal are the most common PvE resist holes and they are covered excellently.

Don't quote me on this one but I recall the math saying that the closer to full rainbow dps you get the higher your applied dps gets in PvP.
Due to the fact people try to get rounded resist profiles, coupled with the fact that projectile ammo fits well into the lob-sided resist-profiles that factions work with.

Ok, I just checked some numbers and indeed projectile have a great advantage because explo and EM resist are only seen on minmatar and amarr T2 ships whereas most ships resist either kin, thermal or both. The good ammo here is EMP which have the almost perfect mix for all but minmatar ships (for them you have phased plasma or explosive ammo).

With the numbers, my conclusion is that 25% damage bonused hull have about the same efficiency than projectile for damage selection (they will apply about the same percentage of base damage).

Yet, all hull with rof bonus have the best damage selection in game, before projectiles.

50% damage bonused missile hull fall behind projectile hulls but still are before laser and hybrid ships.

And with missiles you still have the damage selection with T2 ammo.

Ya know, it would be much easier to take you seriously if you didn't dismiss everything that is legitimately wrong with missiles. Instead everything mentioned needs a counter-argument. When you compare apples and oranges, sometimes there is no equivalent downside to the other fruit. Since you mentioned the rainbow damage on minmatar ships if you say 25% unwanted damage type. You get a higher reduction over 25% which in PvE comes down to between 25% to 50%<(elite mobs) less damage over 25%.
All in all, kinetic and thermal are the most common PvE resist holes and they are covered excellently.

Don't quote me on this one but I recall the math saying that the closer to full rainbow dps you get the higher your applied dps gets in PvP.
Due to the fact people try to get rounded resist profiles, coupled with the fact that projectile ammo fits well into the lob-sided resist-profiles that factions work with.

And you dare to bring up PVE on a balance discussion? PVE is irrelevant balance wise. Balance shoudl be achieved for PVPand then extrapolated to PVE!


THe damage selection on minmatar ships effectively is much smalelr because most of time with AC you are using barrage. While caldari has multiple damage types on T2 missiles.

That is a HUGE difference. Minamtar can only select damage type when they can use normal ammo, and that is when the enemy is much weaker and they cn approach. In other words ithelps to gank a weaker target faster.

I will dare wtf ever I want to dare. That said PvE was implied because PvP-wise his argument made no sense as per my aforementioned reasons. You can rage about your engagement profile but your damage selection is there and as I mentioned to begin with. PvP isn't as much about being able to pick 100% damage of sorts. It has much more to do with the common resist profile. We were talking damage types, every weapon-type has suboptimal setups your troll attempt doesn't change that. So for clarity sake 'I wasn't discussing engagement profiles, what you do in your free time is up to you'.

P.S. Normal ammo? IF you mean people have been packing republic fleet ammo since before I can remember, then yes.

trolling? On the opposite, the fact is that I understand combat, you do not. And no people will not use faction ammo against a target that is stronger or as strong as the minmatar ship at close range , for example a blaster boat. Republic fleet i great when you need jsut to kill faster something that you could already kill with barrrage. But he ammo that you will travel around .. loaded in your vagabond, stabber, loki, cynabal .. is barrage.

It is the main minmatar amo and it does NOT have damage selection. Caldari has damage selection on t2 missiles. That is why minmatar damage selection is no where as powerful as caldari one.

So, you are saying here that short range missile system and LM are the only missiles without the problem of travel time. Hence, I repeat :


HML Drake and Tengu operated in long range doctrines of nullsec. Hence the speed of HML was enough to be useful in a fleet doctrine.

HML Drake and Tengu operated in small gang and alone too with rather good success. Hence the speed of HML was enough to be useful in small gang and solo.

In the HML nerf; HM and CM speed have been buffed.

Hence, LR missile velocity is not a problem for pvp.

Considering what you say and what I just said, missile speed is enough for pvp in EVE with maybe the exception of sniping.

Hence, the idea of missiles being too slow to be good for pvp is a legend which might been true in the past when fleets fought eachother at 200km but isn't anymore.

@Drake Doe : Indeed CM Raven and Typhoon could probably make a doctrine, but gallente made a come back and people where dreaming of a gallente doctrine for years whereas caldari/minmatar doctrines are kind of "d+¬j+á vu" now. But who knows ? Maybe they will finaly kill the undead potato one day ?

Maybe one day, but that'll probably require another revamp of cruise missiles

missile systems have been brought back into line. they use to be so stupid op. and if you want something very OP fly a tengu.

missile systems have been brought back into line. they use to be so stupid op. and if you want something very OP fly a tengu.