i some how disagree.. missles seem to work for frigs and dessys(mostly) but yes other then those ships turrets seem to be better over all :|

Frigates and destroyers... that's it? So basically you mean rockets. That's 1/8 missile systems.

And light missiles. Such a wealth of choices...

How many Hawks or Coraxs have you seen running light missile launchers?

I don't measure quality by use. That's CCP's schtick. Light missile launchers are quite good at their intended purpose.

Yes, convincing players they should've trained into rockets intead.

Frigates and destroyers... that's it? So basically you mean rockets. That's 1/8 missile systems.

Welcome to how it was being Gallente trained a few years back. Now you Caldari guys get to spend some time in the wilderness....good luck.

Welcome to how it was being Gallente trained a few years back. Now you Caldari guys get to spend some time in the wilderness....good luck.

Is it so much to ask to have every faction be viable for the most part?

i think what would really help this, specifically for caldari ships, would be bonuses focused more on damage application instead of range. So, rather than having a really long range ship that doesnt apply well you could have a closer range ship with better application. Just my take.

think CCP should start with the Basic problems, before patching the wounds of induvidual missile problem.

The Basic problem is that missiles are static.

Turrets and Drones can easier adapt to changes, through a great choice of amunition, modules, rigs and even modules that are not directly turret related. (more agilty will make it easier to get your tranversal right) and piloting.

Missiles lack these modules /ammo choices (they "have"selectical damage, though most ships have there bonus on a speciic damage type, so in quite some occasions that is a paper bonus)/ and they will not profit from any form of damage aplication through launcher related modules (I consider the Web and TP directly related to the launchers)

So with every ballance adjustment it's much harder to adapt to changes with launchers/missiles that is is with turrets based weapons, due to the lack of options.

this works both way's they have the tendency to become very fast either O.P. or useless.

My sugestion to the Ballance Crew would be the following:

for now, finish ballancing the ships.

Then start redesigning missiles as a whole, so users can adapt to changes in the future.

Untill then please return the old RLML or make it a system next to the currrent system.


damage projection ballancing/the lack of adaptablility and the insane SP cost compared to turrets and drones are at this moment the biggest problems for making missiles a useful system.

Yes I believe this would help a lot. The Caldari ships atm seem to have too much range and crap damage application. It was this engagement range that made the Drake overpowered in large fleets I believe. Still tho maybe the way in which the damage is calculated could do with an overhaul I think, just adding damage application bonuses could be more like a duct tape fix but it would help small gang and solo a lot.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

3 Tengu 5,256
7 Manticore 3,086
6 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 1,770

No skill?

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

3 Tengu 5,256
7 Manticore 3,086
6 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 1,770

No skill?

HML needs their raw damage buffed...since they got nerfed to hell and other medium guns got a huge buff.
500dps or so to cruisers would be nice if most of it would be applied.


And ofcourse more hulls with damage application bonuses, all other empires have ships that have tracking bonuses except for caldari that gets none besides the navy ships.

And hawk as light missile platform is quite good in fleets....but for small gangs/solo better go rockets because light missiles implies kiting and hawk is not the fastest AF out there.And with rockets u can take advantage of that shield boost bonus.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

3 Tengu 5,256
7 Manticore 3,086
6 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 1,770

No skill?

Dominix: 15,249 Kills, three times the next closest ship. Because "launch drones" and "attack targeted" from a stationary brick is the height of skilled game play.

As far as I'm concerned, missiles suck cause they're being compared to instant damage turrets. They need their flight speed boosted IMO, as well as maybe some base damage to compensate for the lead time. I'd say they'll keep getting worse, but heck, they're basically already a niche weapon as it is, used only in PVE and a select (very) small number of ships as a primary means of damage.

As far as I'm concerned, missiles suck cause they're being compared to instant damage turrets. They need their flight speed boosted IMO, as well as maybe some base damage to compensate for the lead time. I'd say they'll keep getting worse, but heck, they're basically already a niche weapon as it is, used only in PVE and a select (very) small number of ships as a primary means of damage.

The problem here is that Heavies and HAMs were specifically nerfed to counter a broken hull: The Drake.

Drake's been nerfed, CCP. And Navy drake is so expensive you're not likely going to see blobs of it being used nearly as much as the old drake.

So yeah, return heavies to what they were, buff HAMs a wee bit (explosion speed needs help) and we're in business. Torps can't be touched due to SB issues, Cruise were finally buffed, and lights and rockets are finally worth half a damn.

Also fix the ugly turrets on the Malediction, please?

What really needs to happen to the missile formula is factoring in the Radial Velocity between the missile and its target. The closer to 0 the radial velocity is, the less damage.. The higher the negative radial velocity, the more damage.. and if its a positive value.. well your missile just lost the race.

This will also put piloting skills back in the game for missile systems.

The missile game mechanics is not so bad.
I think the problem is in the missiles stats

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

3 Tengu 5,256
7 Manticore 3,086
6 Prototype 'Arbalest' Torpedo Launcher 1,770

No skill?

I don't measure quality by use. That's CCP's schtick. Light missile launchers are quite good at their intended purpose.

And light missiles. Such a wealth of choices...

How many Hawks or Coraxs have you seen running light missile launchers?

I love logic of many forum users - they only see bad things about stuff they want buffed or save from nerf.

Missiles are not affected by neuts .
They are not affected by TD.
They can even shoot jammed and damped(not that they do best at this situation but still).
They can select any type damage they want (very often hulls are not bonused for kinetic only, even if they are option is still there)
They got insane range (especially STUPID light missiles).
They got no tracking problems.
They don't have to use low damage ammo to reach targets far away (cruise missile is good example).
Probably more good things but cba to list all.

And i know there are also drawbacks for using missiles. But we cannot make one weapon system flawless - else others will suck and ask for buffs - and it will never end.
We already got autocannons - perfect weapons ... just range sucks sometimes. Which is good else it would be ******** ;).
-1 to any missile buff attempt except small for HMs ... and maybe citadel.

stuff

i do hope that is sarcasm.

I love logic of many forum users - they only see bad things about stuff they want buffed or save from nerf.

Missiles are not affected by neuts .

They are not affected by TD.

They can even shoot jammed and damped(not that they do best at this situation but still).

They can select any type damage they want (very often hulls are not bonused for kinetic only, even if they are option is still there)

They got insane range (especially STUPID light missiles).

They got no tracking problems.

They don't have to use low damage ammo to reach targets far away (cruise missile is good example).

Probably more good things but cba to list all.

And i know there are also drawbacks for using missiles. But we cannot make one weapon system flawless - else others will suck and ask for buffs - and it will never end.

We already got autocannons - perfect weapons ... just range sucks sometimes. Which is good else it would be ******** ;).

-1 to any missile buff attempt except small for HMs ... and maybe citadel.

I see too many condors, hawks, caracals, breachers, talwars, coraxes etc to give even small credit to what you say.

Light missiles are perfectly healthy (if maybe even need a range nerf) because they apply their damage well. All those ships (with one notable exception) use the Light Missile Launcher II or Rocket Launcher II which are still effective for their classes (frigs/dessies).

Now i don't want to live in perfectly healthy game in that case. Because they are worst thing for small scale pvp that could ever happen. They are blantly op and everyone who does a bit of small scale pvp knows this.

Thanks, that's why i don't want "perfectly healthy" balance for medium missiles. I rather keep them "sick".

Well now we know where CCP40sec got his positive feedback.

Personally, I think the missile dmg concept is fine, with just one exception:

Low-slot modules for missile-tracking plx.

Edit: not too much, balance with the ammount of damage mitigation speed-increasing low-slot modules provide.

We have these things called target painters and webs that increase sigRad and decrease target velocity, and thus indirectly increase missile applied damage up to the maximum possible.

I swear whoever is balancing HML and RHML must have been only an EFT warrior, and not involved in the entirety of the game.

Now i don't want to live in perfectly healthy game in that case. Because they are worst thing for small scale pvp that could ever happen. They are blantly op and everyone who does a bit of small scale pvp knows this.

Thanks, that's why i don't want "perfectly healthy" balance for medium missiles. I rather keep them "sick".

Dafuq?

Dafuq?

Are you ... yhmmm slow on mind ? No offence by it's easy to understand what i said. Me and many others(yeah not just me)... we don't want HM's to be what light missiles are in small weapons category. I rather keep things broken than break it even more by going into such disgusting level of overbuff.

It's not like HAMs are **** - they are not , rapids are also not bad - despite drawback of long reload its single weapon system capable of firing "smaller" ammunition hence better damage projection. HM's could use VERY SMALL buff. Damage one not application. (because long range weapon systems are supposed to "track" worse - in case of missiles worse explosion stats etc).

Have you met Bouh from the RLML thread? His spelling and grammar are better but his ideas are just as stupid as yours.
If you stepped outside of your turrets and went to the other side of the tracks where missiles live and gave them a try you wouldn't be saying such obviously stupid things.
The only people that I have seen, in over 4 pages here and over 130 pages in the RLML thread, that object to a complete missile rework are the ones that have never had to try and make missiles work while CCP40sec and CCPFizzle are kicking you in the teeth.
Edit: Go take a torp BS, not a Stealth Bomber, and try to kill something smaller than a POS with torps. Go ahead. Take cruise missiles and try and engage something smaller than a BS. You're going to say it's great since cruise missiles got their super-OP mega buff that made all the poor little downtrodden turret users cry into their blankies at night but we'll see how long you survive against that ship that doesn't have to sacrifice it's tank to kill you since you probably have next to no tank if you're shooting something smaller than the Death Star.

CCP thanks for good missile balance we got now . Just nerf light missiles and we are set.

Just nerf light missiles and we are set.

I know missiles well - my brother is FULL CALDARI TRAINED in missiles, nothing else.
So yeah i know how they work from frigate to battleship included.
You do understand also that not everyone is native English speaker. You also do understand EVERYTHING i said here.
You just don't agree so you went with terrible argument , probably worst argument you can use on international forum. The poor english.
Now i know it's not that bad. I often don't pay much attention to grammar or interpunction. Maybe i should do this more. But disgusting person like you, who can only come up with such ****** arguments, are not someone who i will talk to again.

Now i'm so sorry, i'm so sorry that i think that missiles are not in need of buffs.

But that is my friggin right to give my own feedback. You don't like it ? Ok don't like it then. But try to talk with arguments, not telling me that i'm not entitled to my own oppinion, just because i don't edit and triple check my posts for grammar mistakes etc. You just proved and many others that what i'm saying is EASY to understand.

So screw you dude.

CCP thanks for good missile balance we got now . Just nerf light missiles and we are set.

So screw you dude.

Ok Naomi I think you need to relax a little... I don't feel you are contributing to this thread with anything useful... I don't really care what your brother does or doesn't do, EVE is complex enough that you cannot gain a well formed idea about a particular part of the game without trying it yourself.

As an example I would not go to a "Lasers Need a Change" thread and say "LASERS ARE FINE STUPID PPL", simply because I have no experience with them.

Give your feedback but don't freak out when we counter it.

Thats All im going to say to you.

Ok Naomi I think you need to relax a little... I don't feel you are contributing to this thread with anything useful... I don't really care what your brother does or doesn't do, EVE is complex enough that you cannot gain a well formed idea about a particular part of the game without trying it yourself.

As an example I would not go to a "Lasers Need a Change" thread and say "LASERS ARE FINE STUPID PPL", simply because I have no experience with them.

Give your feedback but don't freak out when we counter it.

Thats All im going to say to you.

CCP thanks for good missile balance we got now . Just nerf light missiles and we are set.

We really need to start learning to stop feeding the trollsGǪ The problems with all missiles can be summarized in four short points:

GÇó Phoenix dreadnought
GÇó Heavy missiles and drakes
GÇó Cruise missiles and torpedoes
GÇó Rapid light missile launchers

The Phoenix dreadnought, well - it just sucks (even the CSM supported a thread for reimbursement the other day). The HML adjustment nerfed damage, range and damage application (it only needed a the range nerf and a slight damage adjustment). Cruise missiles became so OP with their rebalance than almost no one uses torpedoes now. And finally, rapid launchers. In addition to transitioning from a solo PvP to blob weapon, there was a 23% overall damage nerf (so now you have a weapon that's completely useless).

GÇó Fix the Phoenix once and for all; no more of this gradual change crap. Good grief, it's been how many years now? Embarrassing doesn't even begin to describe it.
GÇó Reinstate the damage application for HMLs and un-nerf the Drakes.
GÇó Dial back the range on cruise missiles and buff the damage for torpedoes.
GÇó Revert back to the original rapid light launchers and first iteration of rapid heavy launchers.

CCP-Fall doesn't know what he's doing.

Cruise missiles aren't that bad. They are quite effective against other battleships and have crazy range. Not saying they couldn't use a little work (and they have fundamental issues in PVP), but I'd be ecstatic if I woke up tomorrow and all the other missiles you listed suddenly measured up to cruise missiles.

Edit: Just realized you are suggesting a nerf to cruise missiles. WTF? People don't use torps because they are trash.

What I suggested was to dial back the range with cruise missiles, ie: reduce flight time by maybe 25% (keep velocity). The fact that they can hit out to over 350km when you can only target to 250km doesn't seem problematic? And as for torpedoes, I suggested a damage buff. Something like a straight 10-15% damage increase.

What I suggested was to dial back the range with cruise missiles, ie: reduce flight time by maybe 25% (keep velocity). The fact that they can hit out to over 350km when you can only target to 250km doesn't seem problematic? And as for torpedoes, I suggested a damage buff. Something like a straight 10-15% damage increase.

Missile flight time at extreme ranges majorly sucks though, so all that range (that you have to sacrifice damage application to get) is pretty meh.

The fact Incursion fleets looking for optimal efficiency don't want cruise missile pilots, suggests they are not OP. They are rarely used outside of lvl4 mission running so I don't see any evidence for them being OP. If your sitting at long range it's much better to have high alpha instant dps turrets, if people are using Cruise over Torps it has more to do with the poor damage application of torpedo's than range.

Suffice to say, missiles are completely screwed-up and CCP has continually shown that missiles are a second rate weapon system, limited by an unrealistic maximum velocity that is outperformed by a projectile weapon with an unknown but constant muzzle velocity of insane speed.

I see where you're coming from - but this essentially suggests making missiles use turret mechanics, which defeats the purpose... Also they have absolute range, as staged, but I think this has to stay just for the logic behind it (Fuel Limits) - otherwise how can they justifies what range the missle lowers damage at, also how it happens ("If it dosen't need fuel, why dose not it go for ever.

That said, I agree with the first replies, just add more application bonuses - or as you suggest, just a bigger range of ammo.

Yes, missiles have more range. They have to, simply because they don't offer variable range, damage type or damage application.

And that range is not very useful past a certain point outside of PvE because missiles have a maximum velocity, which doesn't seem to be a problem with projectiles. But yea, if your opponent doesn't mind waiting around for you missiles to get there you'll be able to experience the disappointment of watching your damage not apply. :)

Correct. And if you get sensor-dampened that negates most of the range advantage. Since Caldari hulls don't receive web or scrambler bonuses, you're more or less giving everything up to be able to engage in close-range PvP. One of the few things Caldari ships have left going for them is ECM, but I think we can all see the writing on the wall.

We haven't been able to fix the Phoenix in years, but we can literally destroy the Caracal overnight...

Yes, and between everyone, you and me, we have discussed everything there is to be said about missiles. It is time for us all to drop missiles and move on. I mean we are not just whining, missiles really are stupid at this point. The only thing that has any real point to be flown is a Tengu and that alone isn't worth the effort. It will take maybe a month for people to get that cruise missiles are a joke again since now it is Marauder or go home. CCP doesn't give a **** after every point has been made. Move on and move out of missiles.

Yes, and between everyone, you and me, we have discussed everything there is to be said about missiles. It is time for us all to drop missiles and move on. I mean we are not just whining, missiles really are stupid at this point. The only thing that has any real point to be flown is a Tengu and that alone isn't worth the effort. It will take maybe a month for people to get that cruise missiles are a joke again since now it is Marauder or go home. CCP doesn't give a **** after every point has been made. Move on and move out of missiles.

And with a nerf on the horizon, I don't think the Tengu is going to be worth flying for very much longer, either. RIP Caldari.

I guess everything wasn't discussed lol. For real? Tengu getting a nerf? Well it doesn't really matter. I will probably get the most use out of missile skills with my 4 gimpy rattlesnake launchers. Simply because it is secondary dps so it can't screw me too much.
Edit: That sounded more selfish then intended, but I hope the message got across.

CCP Fall said that T3s "GǪwouldn't be nerfed to the point of uselessness", but seeing as how the Tengu is already borderline ineffective - that pretty much seals its fate. If I could run guns on the Rattlesnake that would be pretty tempting.

Frigates and destroyers... that's it? So basically you mean rockets. That's 1/8 missile systems.

Yes, missiles have more range. They have to, simply because they don't offer variable range, damage type or damage application.

What I think about missile damage is that it should actually deliver normal damage is, say, you throw missiles into your enemy's face. I mean completely opposite directions, because really explosion won't come throuth the ship and will deliver its full damage. Also, explosion should maintain missile's velocity so if missile was actually faster then from behind damage should be increased as well. So if a frig goes straight to a cruise missile, it'll be blapped; if 90 degreees - well some damage, if away from - possibly increased damage as well. Will need some tweaks to missile stats though.

that is actually wrong missles do offer selectable damagetypes (only because some ships have a kinetic bonus it doesnt mean they cant (and sometimes must) use other amos for great effect) and they also offer you missle wich hit smaller targets (precision) or missles wich do more damage but only hit bigger targets (fury /rage) so you infact have the options at hand to pick damage type and aplication

i really canot see where you people get your arguments from , missles can be a as good weapon system as turrets (if we ignore hms) , they now have the same skill requirements /path for the individual gun / launcher, they have the same options to influence damage and application (implants, rigs) . They are not broken , but they follow their own mechanics , just as drones do follow their own mechanic. Hms are special as they have been nerfed for a reason a while agon and their turret equivalents (rail,artillery and beam) have received a damage buff , so i assume ccp will find a solution to not make them the new med railguns .

On a side note : This thread isnt about ships , and even if it was i canot see the tengu beeing useless. Things change sometimes and than you need to adapt and not beg for some one to come and change things back ....

Furthermore, the damage-application mechanics for missiles result in a minimum damage-reduction of 50% and a maximum of over 90%. Turrets when they hit will always hit for their full damage and sometimes will hit for bonus damage due to surgical strike. Missile mechanics are crap and anyone that has used them for more than a week would know that. Though logic alone would tell you that the mechanic cor missiles is a bunch of arbitrary bs.

ps. Precision missiles larger than LMs are a joke... Don't believe me, feel free to train for them on either Tranq or Singularity and test it. Oh and be sure to target the intended sized ship as well as smaller than intent-size.

ps. Fury is also a joke. It has damage sure. However, it is even less efficient than the faction missiles on damage application. The only thing that Fury can be used with acceptable efficiency on his significantly larger than intended-size targets.

that is actually wrong missles do offer selectable damagetypes (only because some ships have a kinetic bonus it doesnt mean they cant (and sometimes must) use other amos for great effect) and they also offer you missle wich hit smaller targets (precision) or missles wich do more damage but only hit bigger targets (fury /rage) so you infact have the options at hand to pick damage type and aplication

i really canot see where you people get your arguments from , missles can be a as good weapon system as turrets (if we ignore hms) , they now have the same skill requirements /path for the individual gun / launcher, they have the same options to influence damage and application (implants, rigs) . They are not broken , but they follow their own mechanics , just as drones do follow their own mechanic. Hms are special as they have been nerfed for a reason a while agon and their turret equivalents (rail,artillery and beam) have received a damage buff , so i assume ccp will find a solution to not make them the new med railguns .

On a side note : This thread isnt about ships , and even if it was i canot see the tengu beeing useless. Things change sometimes and than you need to adapt and not beg for some one to come and change things back ....

This has led to a lack of missile usage in pvp because blasters simply do more damage at the extreme short ranges where delayed damage or smartbomb firewalls would be least effective.

I think missiles should OWN clustered ships and apply area damage similar to smartbombs but the majority of damage being applied should be directed towards targeted ships. Any ship in proximity of the blast from missiles should also take some damage. This would really make missiles unique then any other weapon type as they would be a combination of targeted damage and area of effect damage.