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Zysco	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:18:00 - [31] Edited by: Zysco on 06/03/2006 18:19:23 We definately needed another thread on this, its been what... 3 days? Oh no wait its been 5 days since a 8 page thread was posted on this, on page 2. callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back
Christopher Multsanti	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:20:00 - [32] To be honest I dont care that a carebear that wants to run away fits WCS's, I do care that "PVP'ers" engage you, want a fight with you and then when it goes bad, warp away while scrambled. The Dread Killers
Zhon	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:30:00 - [33] The sad part about this is 8/10 times it is the pirate (Ganker) that is running 1-8 stabs. Take a high damage ship come in gank a soft target and then leave. WCS are part of the game just like everything else. Pirates use them just as much aa pvp players and npc players do. Like someone said when people fit WCS to their setup they are gimping their ship and it is a fair tradeoff. Now that pirates of been WCS up they find their prey are doing the same and it ***es them off so now they have to changed their tactic to win perhaps even..... Gasp*... take thier WCS off. What I would like to see is the warp scrambling scenrio played out like the Jamming is. A roll of the die. Doesnt matter if you have 1 or 8 stabs on there will always be chance the your going to roll a 1 and you get scramed. IT would make people think twice about fitting absurd amounts of WCS and gimping them selves severly if they wernt always going to not get get jammed. People use to fit 2-4 Gravmetric backup units on to scorps and raven to prevent jamming i havnt seen anyone even so much as look at the modules since the changed the way jamming worked. Is it because the module is useless?... No. IT is because it is not guaranteed and you feel like you are waisting a low slot.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:31:00 - [34] "Can you honestly say the NPCer/PVPer who warped away from 4 points because he had 5 stabs fitted is a tactical mastermind?" A mastermind, no. But someone who took into account possibility they'd have to run, fitted accordingly and enjoyed the benefits of this decision, yes. It did take some thinking and choice making, and if it happens to pay off... then go them. No point in crying it's unfair. "It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat." Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... "I don't like WCS setups because having to have 2 dedicated stilettos plus heavy firepower just to have a chance of holding down and killing one* ship."* Well, this is extremal situation. And note, if you are talking of something like 'geddon with all slots filled with WCS, then a couple of interceptors with multiple scramblers is all it takes to kill it once they have it pinned down. Because we're talking of ship that has no defense whatsoever -- all it can do is run with secondary option of possibly shooting for some lame amount of damage. "It makes solo combat almost impossible unless they are stabless" Well, you can have +4 scramble strength on pretty much any ship that you'd take in combat. It won't perform as perfectly nice as ship running just single disruptor but hey, a WCS ship doesn't perform perfectly, either. Choices and risk taking. And if we reverse the argument, the suggested changes would make avoiding combat while solo next to impossible. Would this be positive for game overall..? "There are far too many people PVPing with stabs who are basically looking for cheap kills. If they attack a ship that offers some form of resistance they just select a moon/planet and warp away." Well, and here is the catch: if you are warp scrambling someone preventing them from running, then it could be said you're effectively trying to get "cheap kill" yourself... because at the point someone tries to run they already acknowledged they're no match for you, and are about to lose. So asking to have it easier to scramble and have it harder to escape? This is in the end asking for the very thing you dislike -- easy way to get easy kills. -.^
danneh	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:37:00 - [35] Warp core stabilizer: Penalty loss of all high/medium slots, yes plz.
Nybbas	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:37:00 - [36] I am fine with WCS used to be safe in travel etc, but it really ****es me off when people use them for combat... I say just make wcs cause all activated offensive modules, guns, ecm, nosf, to have a 50% activation penalty (in the case of ecm, it would double their activation time while still only having a 20 seconds cycle....)
Rusty PwnStar	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:44:00 - [37] Originally by: j0sephine "Can you honestly say the NPCer/PVPer who warped away from 4 points because he had 5 stabs fitted is a tactical mastermind?" A mastermind, no. But someone who took into account possibility they'd have to run, fitted accordingly and enjoyed the benefits of this decision, yes. It did take some thinking and choice making, and if it happens to pay off... then go them. No point in crying it's unfair. "It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat." Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... "I don't like WCS setups because having to have 2 dedicated stilettos plus heavy firepower just to have a chance of holding down and killing one* ship."* Well, this is extremal situation. And note, if you are talking of something like 'geddon with all slots filled with WCS, then a couple of interceptors with multiple scramblers is all it takes to kill it once they have it pinned down. Because we're talking of ship that has no defense whatsoever -- all it can do is run with secondary option of possibly shooting for some lame amount of damage. "It makes solo combat almost impossible unless they are stabless" Well, you can have +4 scramble strength on pretty much any ship that you'd take in combat. It won't perform as perfectly nice as ship running just single disruptor but hey, a WCS ship doesn't perform perfectly, either. Choices and risk taking. And if we reverse the argument, the suggested changes would make avoiding combat while solo next to impossible. Would this be positive for game overall..? "There are far too many people PVPing with stabs who are basically looking for cheap kills. If they attack a ship that offers some form of resistance they just select a moon/planet and warp away." Well, and here is the catch: if you are warp scrambling someone preventing them from running, then it could be said you're effectively trying to get "cheap kill" yourself... because at the point someone tries to run they already acknowledged they're no match for you, and are about to lose. So asking to have it easier to scramble and have it harder to escape? This is in the end asking for the very thing you dislike -- easy way to get easy kills. -.^ Very well put, i'm not sure I could have said it better myself.
Hellraiza666	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists btw learn to fight if u have to use wcs on combat ships. i agree =) also signed, either nerf stabs or boost scramblers
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:49:00 - [39] I don't have any problems with stab abusers anymore. I use no guns... i smack to death.
Derran	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:55:00 - [40] Originally by: j0sephine Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... Well put. I agree. I'll agree with the original idea if they make WCS strength 2 at the same time.:) I find it incredible that pirates constantly complain about this though. Especially when it is someone from Krom when one of their pilots has a vagabond with 5 WCS on it. Of course, 3 7.5k warp scramblers fixes that problem.
Zysco	Posted - 2006.03.06 19:02:00 - [41] Originally by: LUKEC I don't have any problems with stab abusers anymore. Yeah i dunno i guess some people just f1-f8 while flying and dont actually fly their ships? As long as you have 1 fast ship its pretty simple to stop stab *****s... callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back
xenorx	Posted - 2006.03.06 19:10:00 - [42] CCP needs to go back to the way it used to be a couple of years ago with WCS being a mid slot modual.
Shoele Lialos	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:03:00 - [43] Originally by: Shibby DoWa Edited by: Shibby DoWa on 06/03/2006 16:23:27 No, if I realised I was losing I would try my damn hardest to get out of scrambling range and escape. However, I would be forced to actually use my brain to try and get out of a fight (or even win it) instead of fitting 2+ identical modules that does just that. and Originally by: Shibby DoWa Edited by: Shibby DoWa on 06/03/2006 17:16:18 Can you honestly say the NPCer/PVPer who warped away from 4 points because he had 5 stabs fitted is a tactical mastermind? It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat. I was wondering, just how did you get 4 points of scramble going without "fitting 2+ identical modules?" Shouldn't you start a thread complaining that other forms of defense are OP'd? Armor repairers? Hardeners? Shield Extenders? It's rock-paper-scissors. Just because you only know how to throw out rock, doesn't mean the rest of the world has to keep playing scissors so you can keep winning.
FileCop AI	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:09:00 - [44] Use interdictor, bubbles, friends, alts, more scramblers and stop whining about it ;) Stabs nerf a setup just as much as fitting more scramblers would. And before you say you can't use interdictors in empire for pirating. Who cares. Death to pirates ;) Come to 0.0 ;) FileCop AI of MASS
Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:22:00 - [45] oo, i know, i know.... Make it so that ther is an absolute scamble strength. If you fit a scrambler and a wcs, you get a net result of 0... +1 strength for WCS and -1 for the Scram... Now, you PVPer's have a choice... you can try and hold your enemy in place (hopefully for you) or fight and have a chance to run away. Probably a coding nightmare but an interesting way to penalize the use of both scrams and wcs at the same time. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:59:00 - [46] seeing as I can't log in I might as well troll some more Originally by: j0sephine "It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat." Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... Which weapons? which ammo? Will your cap hold out for long enough while firing? Which hardeners should I fit - passive or active? How long can I sustain my repairers and should I dedicate some spare slots for cap modules? Do I fit a MWD and gimp my setup or go for an afterburner which although is slower, gives me more cap and more fitting room? Do my guns track well enough with or without a web? Will I need -6 to keep the enemy in place so a web is a no go? Do I fit 20kms and be pretty safe at the expence of only having probably 1-3 points, or do I dare risk going in a 7.5km where I could get webbed and torn to shreds? Like I said, I have no problem if people fit stabs but they need their role defined, i.e. to allow safe travel, not to PVP. The only real tactical decision that come with stabs is "how many low slots do I have" and "how much CPU do I have". Quote: "I don't like WCS setups because having to have 2 dedicated stilettos plus heavy firepower just to have a chance of holding down and killing one* ship."* Well, this is extremal situation. And note, if you are talking of something like 'geddon with all slots filled with WCS, then a couple of interceptors with multiple scramblers is all it takes to kill it once they have it pinned down. Because we're talking of ship that has no defense whatsoever -- all it can do is run with secondary option of possibly shooting for some lame amount of damage. Once they have it pinned down, all the geddon needs to do is let light drones on one of the targets and slap a nos on it and he will either flee or die. Quote: And if we reverse the argument, the suggested changes would make avoiding combat while solo next to impossible. Would this be positive for game overall..? Again I'm all for people trying to avoid combat if they don't want to fight. Running of once they realise they're not going to win by fitting 7-8 stabs is what gets on my nerves. Quote: "There are far too many people PVPing with stabs who are basically looking for cheap kills. If they attack a ship that offers some form of resistance they just select a moon/planet and warp away." Well, and here is the catch: if you are warp scrambling someone preventing them from running, then it could be said you're effectively trying to get "cheap kill" yourself... because at the point someone tries to run they already acknowledged they're no match for you, and are about to lose. So asking to have it easier to scramble and have it harder to escape? This is in the end asking for the very thing you dislike -- easy way to get easy kills. -.^ Like I said, if that person didn't want to fight they should stab-up and run, not try and engage and then warp off it when it all goes wrong. hmmm I have an idea. Every time you activate a warp scrambler, all your stabs turn off for 5 minutes. NPCers won't be using scramblers so they'll be safe, same goes for haulers. And as for "PVPers", it will make them grow some balls and fight properly . Problem solved (well it would make me happy anyway).
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:06:00 - [47] Originally by: MadGaz Make them highslot, that'd solve it. Yes, because we need to nerf indy's use of stabs, and we need Tempests with 6 1400mm, a full tank, ECM mids AND 2 WCS. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Ahop Yol	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:25:00 - [48] Increasing scrambler strength negates the use of tacklers to a great extent. Your ship is not supposed to be a pwnmobile, no matter what class it is. Use more tacklers - DO NOT ask for this role to be made obsolete due to your own lack of brains/tactics.
Ch'tok	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:26:00 - [49] Edited by: Ch''tok on 06/03/2006 21:28:56 Corrected. Originally by: Trevedian Edited by: Trevedian on 06/03/2006 17:52:39 I am saying warp core scrams are over powered... Everyone knows and agrees that they are except gankers that haven't a clue about EVE... EVE is suffering as a result of scrams being way overpowered, and something needs to be done! Make a stacking penalty for scrams, or have them bork ur CPU or somethin'
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:28:00 - [50] Damn j0sephine laying the smackdown in this thread heh. Noone fights solo hardly anymore. Even some of the decent factions are affraid to solo. It's all about the gank and the smacktalk after the gank. The idea of tech II warp scramblers/disruptors seems ok but it still leaves you with the same problem. You would have to stack them to counter high WCS fitted ships. It would just need less modules to do so. The 6 point stiletto would now become 9 point and the 2 (disruptor) point ship becomes 4 point. Which helps out a lot being some don't fit more than 2 while other ships like Raven fit more than 2. Anyways, I like the idea of making warp jamming like ECM. Chances to fail, skills to increase the chance to negate WCS (Countermesure), and still useful in one module as well stacked. I also like the idea of the racial populsion and fitting the correct jammer for the correct race. Where the correct racial has more streangth than the multi-spec. Which would be the same strength as a scrambler but at longer ranges. So a lot of diffrent ways as well maybe more skill ideas to enhance EW and still make the balance of escaping being ganked all in one :P
cytosci1	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:32:00 - [51] Edited by: cytosci1 on 06/03/2006 21:32:48 How about dmg penalty? Anyway, Just give us tech 2 Warp scramblers and Disrupters..... /signed
hylleX	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:38:00 - [52] signed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well kids you've tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is: never try
Raid	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:39:00 - [53] Nothing wrong with using stabs. Adapt how you use scramblers and tacklers. tbh, if you dont fit a stab these days you give yourself a tacktical disadvantage. The number of ganks vs straight fights is always rising. It's not about pride its about being smart about how you fight. If you dont have stabs and you get ganked thats our own fault for being too proud.
Hanover	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:39:00 - [54] It is so unfair that people fit EM and thermal hardeners that decrease my laser damage by 50%!!! zoinks! I need my laser damage doubled to counter these people and their lame tactics!!!!!!1!!! grow up, there is not a single module in the game that is an "i win". There are counters for everything, if someone has a counter to your setup with one scrambler, fit two. If someone has a counter to your two scramblers fit three.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:40:00 - [55] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Damn j0sephine laying the smackdown in this thread heh it's like arguing with a politician - even though they're wrong they still come out smelling of roses
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:50:00 - [56] There is absolutely nothing wrong with stabs. The other nigth I ran into a raven with 5x WCS, what did I do? I used this nifty module I like to call "Friends" and took it out. If you make Warp Scramblers stronger, it will screw everyone, period. Leave them the way they are and learn to use teamwork. And I swear to ***** god if another WCS thread pops up this week I'm hunting down the OP. ---- I <3 Taranis Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by:** CCP Hammer Boobies
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Foulis There is absolutely nothing wrong with stabs. The other nigth I ran into a raven with 5x WCS, what did I do? I used this nifty module I like to call "Friends" and took it out. If you make Warp Scramblers stronger, it will screw everyone, period. Leave them the way they are and learn to use teamwork. And I swear to ******* god if another WCS thread pops up this week I'm hunting down the OP. but 3 on 1 isn't fun
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:02:00 - [58] Originally by: Derran I find it incredible that pirates constantly complain about this though. Especially when it is someone from Krom when one of their pilots has a vagabond with 5 WCS on it. Of course, 3 7.5k warp scramblers fixes that problem. watch out, trev will call you a carebear if youre not careful and btw stop thinking so backward. surely rather than saying "omg nerf wcs" perhaps think of an idea of actually fixing the problem? like a whole new system on how ships get scrambled? perhaps have a warp drive capacitor with modules that drain the cap, and such, just an idea. the wcs nerfing issue has been around ever since i started eve, and probably when you started i imagine. wcs and warp scramblers have been around for 3 years (i think) so maybe its time for a new system of some kind. i agree with you on one side but on the other, wcs is a countermeasure. if youre going to nerf something nerf the use of wcs, nos and ecm in conjunction. uh.
Naal Morno	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:09:00 - [59] Warp scramblers/WCS will soon get revameped. This will be 2nd attempt to do it, to make them work like jammers/back up arrays.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:13:00 - [60] It really doesnt matter if you gimp your ship by fitting WCS, what is there to gimp when you are garaunteed to live??

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