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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.07 01:30:00 -
[91]
Edited by: j0sephine on 07/03/2006 01:31:07
"the tactics (I feel I am being optimistic by suggesting there is more than one) behind stabs and combat are to sit there and do as much damage as possible before having to warp out. of course, the only targets they can generally hope to kill are 1/2 their size, hence we're back to cheap kill syndrome"
And this sort of Ginger Magician-like performance isn't exactly something that can be considered "being very successful at pvp" ... so i think you just made quite a part of point for me, here -.o
(it answers your own question, "why fit tank when you can fit stabs instead" ... maybe precisely so your setup doesn't limit you to just ganking targets half your size that never posed a threat in first place)
"unless they fit as follows:
1 20km scram
as many multispecs as you have slots for
as many stabs as you have slots for
as many guns as you can fit
It has almost 0% chance of being blown up, and will win a hell of a lot more fights than it will have to warp out of."
This setup can be countered with single WCS or jammer as well, so how exactly do you expect it to win anything, let alone many fights..? It relies on the enemy running nothing but guns and tank otherwise the best you can expect is complete lack of resolution...
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Adam Crossfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 01:34:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: j0sephine
"unless they fit as follows:
1 20km scram
as many multispecs as you have slots for
as many stabs as you have slots for
as many guns as you can fit
It has almost 0% chance of being blown up, and will win a hell of a lot more fights than it will have to warp out of."
This setup can be countered with single WCS or jammer as well, so how exactly do you expect it to win anything, let alone many fights..? It relies on the enemy running nothing but guns and tank otherwise the best you can expect is complete lack of resolution...
If something has to be countered with itself it is unbalanced.
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Shibby DoWa
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Posted - 2006.03.07 01:35:00 -
[93]
Originally by: j0sephine
And this sort of Ginger Magician-like performance isn't exactly something that can be considered "being very successful at pvp" ... so i think you just made quite a part of point for me, here -.o
GM has probably killed more people with his snipe and stab tactics than I've had hot dinners, same as burn eden with their damping/ecm stabbed ravens and other similar setups. It may be lame, they may be hated, but the setups work very well. Try tackling a BE raven in 0.1 and tell me how many ships you needed to use :).
and on that note, I'm going to sleep as it's 1:30am. It's been a pleasure arguring with you :)
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Tar Magen
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Posted - 2006.03.07 01:40:00 -
[94]
Frigates scrambling battleships is a bit absurd anyhow.
I suggest that cruisers and battlecruisers get +1 stability and that battleships get +2 stability automatically. Then provide cruiser and battleship-sized scramblers that do better than +1 or +2 warp scramble strength. |
Prestis
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Posted - 2006.03.07 01:44:00 -
[95]
If it's cool that people get to decide whether to run or fight when they fit WCS, why not just save the hassle and introduce a PvP-flag module?
It's only a very small step further (unless you have your own personal army of ceptors) and stops people starting combat and then deciding to leave half way through.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.07 01:44:00 -
[96]
"If something has to be countered with itself it is unbalanced."
But countering a ship with 1 point disruptor with WCS is not countering things with itself... it's countering with module that's supposed to provide exactly this functionality.
(if your point is instead "ships with stabs and ecm are overpowered because they can be countered by ships with stabs and ecm" ... hey, ships with guns and tanks can be countered by ships with guns and tanks. Clearly 'tis a sign guns and tanks are overpowered and unbalanced as well? ;s
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Pes T'Lance
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Posted - 2006.03.07 01:44:00 -
[97]
The simple fact is scramblers, disruptors and WCS all work as intended. No 1 module is overpowered no 1 module is underpowered. All this complaining about how someone used WCS to escape a fight which was just lame and should be nerfed, can go the other way. Why the hell should anyone be able to stop someone from warping away? The plain and simple truth is, if you feel you should have a CCP given right to be able to stop someone from warping, then they should have the same right to be able to ensure they can warp.
Ok so some people may be more concerned about hit and run in PVP (though I know a good amount are from people complaining about their free meal piracy being hurt), thats called guerrilla warfare, and is fully endorsed by CCP. Afterall it's the theoretically the minmattar fighting style. Like real guerrilla warfare, you deal less damage have less defence, but can get in and out easily and quickly. I'm sorry but a fully endorsed style of gameplay being used as intended is completely fair, you have the tools fight back against it, it's just your fault if you don't want to use them or don't know how to.
Scramblers/disruptors with no counter = Overpowered
Scramblers/disruptors with no range limitations = Overpowered
Scramblers/disruptors that have double the strengh = Overpowered
WCS made into high slot = caldari and ships like the dominix getting best of both as opposed to 1 or equall average. Not to mention the likes of indys suddenly become extremely easy targets.
WCS being made mid slot = Caldari get best of both
WCS causing limitations on other artificially imposed limitations on other areas of the ship should apply to Scramblers/disruptors.
WCS = Better chance of escaping but less defence + offence, a big cpu hit (especially when used on the ships with the most lows as they have the least spare cpu) and requires 2x as many to counter scramblers.
Scramblers = 2x the chance of stopping a ship in range but short range, uses cap and less defence on shield ships.
Disruptors = 2.5x range to stop ships but uses more cap and less defence on shield ships.
Bubbles = Guaranteed to stop any ship inside, but has to be dployed which takes time, has to be put inthe right place nad can be destroyed.
Interdictor bubble = Guaranteed to stop any ship inside but needs alot of high level skills and the intedictor is a paper ship.
Seems more in favour of the person wanting to stop someone escaping than the one who wants to run.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 02:02:00 -
[98]
^ above is going to put Caldari into the whine spotlight soon.
/me braces for impact. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Adam Crossfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 02:10:00 -
[99]
Originally by: j0sephine
"If something has to be countered with itself it is unbalanced."
But countering a ship with 1 point disruptor with WCS is not countering things with itself... it's countering with module that's supposed to provide exactly this functionality.
(if your point is instead "ships with stabs and ecm are overpowered because they can be countered by ships with stabs and ecm" ... hey, ships with guns and tanks can be countered by ships with guns and tanks. Clearly 'tis a sign guns and tanks are overpowered and unbalanced as well? ;s
Not true. WCS is a module, I've never heard of the "tank" module, nor the "gun" module. One type of gun fitting and tank fitting can be counteracted with another type of gun and tank fitting. Only deviation with wcs is them being named or t1.
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Livia Tarquina
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Posted - 2006.03.07 02:14:00 -
[100]
Is there any location/module specific damage? If not, then this would be an interesting solution that would further enrich pvp as a whole. Shoot out the warp core stabilizer and he can't jump away.
"Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?"
--Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy |
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.07 02:22:00 -
[101]
"Not true. WCS is a module, I've never heard of the "tank" module, nor the "gun" module."
A warp scrambler is also a module, so am really not seeing the issue, here. There is limited selection of modules when it comes to both scrambling and countering the scramble, but it's not changing the fact "scrambling" and "countering scrambling" are parts of combat mechanics just like "tanking" and "dealing damage" are...
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Justin Cody
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Posted - 2006.03.07 02:43:00 -
[102]
/ deploys his bubble and ganks stabbed ships for lunch
Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Arashi Miike
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Posted - 2006.03.07 02:51:00 -
[103]
I don't have much to add, as it seems j0sephine has said pretty much everything I would have. As a relatively newer player, I enjoy the ability to fit 1 or 2 WCSs to my ship so that when I'm flying around in lower sec space fighting cruiser and battlecruiser spawns in the belts, and some 2 year-old player in a battleship or HAC warps in, I have the option of turning and running. I'm not there for PvP, I'm there for PvE. I imagine the same would apply to an older player hunting rats in 0.0.
CCP obviously did not want a game where we always have to fight, or always have to fight other players. Just like in real life, running is the smartest thing to do when you're outgunned, and CCP has made sure that we have a way to run. Sure, my setup isnt as good as if I'd put combat-related mods in the lows, and because I've given up those low slots, I'd probably lose at PvP against even a ship the same size. But I'm okay with that. In this way, WCSs are good for newer players.
I sympathize with people who dislike pirates loading up on WCSs, flying around looking for easy kills, and then running the moment something the least bit threatening appears. While a valid tactic this may be, I also agree that it is somewhat cowardly. More importantly, however, it encourages a kind of environment that is harmful to newer players, like myself, since combat becomes nothing more than older players in better ships ganking newer players in less expensive ships. This is not a healthy game state, and in this way, WCSs are bad for newer players.
I guess what I'm saying is that, as a newer player, I feel that, before you suggest any drastic changes to WCSs, think of the impact that those changes would have on those of who are not the most PvP oriented players. Yes, I realize that half of the alliance players and all of the pirates are going to scream: "What are you doing in low sec space if you're not ready for PvP?" Well, I get ready for PvP, starting with "WCS x 2".
"I should have been a pair of ragged claws/
scuttling across the floors of silent seas." |
Jacinto Naysmith
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Posted - 2006.03.07 02:52:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Shibby DoWa
Originally by: Jacinto Naysmith
Originally by: xHoodx
Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? like.
Yes, yes it is. Warp core stabs already have a penalty: by equipping them you can't equip a combat oriented module. If you load your ships with stabs you can neither gank well nor tank well, the only thing you will be doing well is running.
unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight?
When you've warped away from the fight, you haven't killed the enemy. Thus you haven't been successful.
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Ginger Magician
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Posted - 2006.03.07 03:23:00 -
[105]
Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets.
If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs.
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Kyguard
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Posted - 2006.03.07 03:25:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Ginger Magician
Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets.
If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs.
-|-
Join LFC, become someone, become family. |
Zakgram
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Posted - 2006.03.07 12:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Trevedian
CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling...
No thanks. 1 module to disrupt at 20km, 1 module to resist the disrupt. Sounds fair. 1 module to disrupt x 2 at 7.5km vs. 2 modules to resist. Sounds like already in favour of the scrambler.
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twit brent
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Posted - 2006.03.07 12:06:00 -
[108]
signed
WCS are imbalanced
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Alliaanna Dalaii
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Posted - 2006.03.07 12:11:00 -
[109]
So 2 midslots should = 8 lowslots ?
Bearing in mind every module in eve has a counter (sort of)
Rofl yeah right, quit whinning noobs and take more tacklers with you.
Alliaanna
Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-= |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.03.07 12:16:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Dark Eulogy
Edited by: Dark Eulogy on 06/03/2006 15:59:53
In a rupture yesterday I was beating a cyclone. He warped out against 1 scram. Dropped my web and fit 2 scrams, made it so much harder to get close to him, but still did and he warped out again. Fking ridiculous.
And he was combat fitted.
So:
A larger, more expensive ship, had more slots than you and could afford to fit stabs.
What you're saying is, you want to be able to kill larger ships in your ftw ship without having to fit properly for it?
I bet you think nos is overpowered because it stops lone frigs tackling Battleships worth 15x their price, too.
The Eve Guild Wars Project! |
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FawKa
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Posted - 2006.03.07 13:07:00 -
[111]
Lol, I really dont get why you think it isnt fair for haulers to fit their stabs. They are haulers ffs ! Cuz I dont think that many fighters uses low-slots to fit 3 stabs right?
*stop killing haulers - sign here, or what?*
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2006.03.07 13:33:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Ginger Magician
Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets.
If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs.
Nothing but a blob fest?... U need a friggin blob to catch them dammit, so why do you think people fly in great numbers these days?
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Gabriel Karade
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Posted - 2006.03.07 13:34:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Yaro
ppl who dont like WCS pls listen, or read....
there r 2 different setups for ships: PVP and NPC...
I rat in a PvP setup, and I'm sure many others do too. You never know when you may be called up to fight (or you never know when you need to put some brash pilot in their place when they thought you were 'easy game') 
- Office Linebacker -
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Alliaanna Dalaii
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Posted - 2006.03.07 13:37:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Alliaanna Dalaii on 07/03/2006 13:37:09
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: Ginger Magician
Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets.
If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs.
Nothing but a blob fest?... U need a friggin blob to catch them dammit, so why do you think people fly in great numbers these days?
O Rly ?
Give me 10mill and 2 pilots and I can tackle any ship in Eve. (not saying the tacklers will live... but they will tackle )
[EDIT] I lied.. some ships are immune to scramblers... HAX 
Alliaanna
Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-= |
KIAEddZ
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Posted - 2006.03.07 13:55:00 -
[115]
SIGNED!!!!!
This is so overdue it isnt funny. ffs CCP sort it.
KIA Piccys
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Kerin Blackhand
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Posted - 2006.03.07 14:02:00 -
[116]
It boils down to this:
Jammers: +1 warp scramble strength from far away
Scramblers: +2 warp scramble strength from closer in
WCS: -1 warp scramble strength
If you can't figure out how to stop someone when you have easy and ready access to a weapon twice as powerful as the defense for it on a module-for-module basis, then maybe the solution to your "problem" isn't removing the defense, eh? 
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Genghis Khan likes corndogs. |
Keven
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Posted - 2006.03.07 14:11:00 -
[117]
NO! NEVER! GO FIT a ****load of scrammers and gimp your ship the way i gimp mine with wc's!
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General Mordakai
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Posted - 2006.03.07 14:20:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Blind Man
i dont fit webs anymore, only scrams, sadly it isnt enough and /signed
btw i want to actually have to turn my reps and such on once in a while i wish i could just get some more fair fights...
Jeeeeez. This is sad. What about the ppl who are getting ganked. Do u ever think someone DOESN'Twant to die? When u only been playing a few weeks and u get killed 25 times, it kinda discourages u from playing. Introduce stabs. NOW u stand a chance of survival when u dont have 3-10 ppl escorting u to a decent spot to make isk. Not everyone wants to be a pirate, nor do they want to be pirated all day every day with no means of escape except sacrificing their guns for stabs. And by the way, in my experience in eve, i have NEVER been in a fair fight. Always been 2 on 1 or more, and for someone who's only played around a month, how am i supposed to fight 2+ rats with way more SP??
In what world would someone who is being attacked with uber weapons(scrams)(scuds) not build something to counter it(stabs)(patriots)? C'mon now, stop crying. U ever go deer hunting and NOT get a deer? damn, imagine that.
Im not spamming, just making sure u heard me
Dude, wheres my pic?! |
Yezah
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Posted - 2006.03.07 14:23:00 -
[119]
Ok I posted this in another thread, but this is more active so I'll post it here too.
"WCS should restrict dmg output. This would negatively effect NPCers (including me atm) but if you want to go farm rats in low sec you should be forced to take a risk for your reward. If you want to earn isk ratting without the risk stay in highsec or make a deal with an alliance.
I think something like a 10% decrease in damage for all high slot modules (and drones) per WCS. So fitting 1 WCS wouldn't destroy your dmg, with 2 you'd be doing significantly less and with 3, 4 or more you'd be pretty low on damage.
This prevents people who fit 5 stabs then go around trying to gank then running away as soon as it goes a bit wrong. If you want to fight you shouldn't fit many WCS. This wouldn't effect people traveling or hauling at all and neither would it effect miners so everyones happy (except poeple who want gank without risk and some NPCers).
What do you think?"
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General Mordakai
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Posted - 2006.03.07 14:40:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Zakgram
Originally by: Trevedian
CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling...
No thanks. 1 module to disrupt at 20km, 1 module to resist the disrupt. Sounds fair. 1 module to disrupt x 2 at 7.5km vs. 2 modules to resist. Sounds like already in favour of the scrambler.
Ho-ly cow. That's the most intellegent response ive seen in this thread. How much more do u stinking rats need to be happy?? 1-1 is as fair as it gets, but when scramblers used YOU are already at an advantage. Put the shoe on the other foot. suppose u r the one lonely noob in a noob based corp getting ganked day in, day out and u have no means of survival. I almost stopped playing the game after a week until someone turned me onto stabs, so go cry about something else like "damn, i bought 500 lottory tickets and that guy only bought 1 and he won".
Im not spamming, just making sure u heard me
Dude, wheres my pic?! |
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