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Trevedian	Posted - 2006.03.06 15:45:00 - [1] Everyone is fitting a WCS FTW setup on their ships (including frigs) and it takes an army to get someone tackled. CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling... Sign this post if you like the idea....I'm open to other suggestions as well, making WCS midslot modules etc... (We have to use a midslot to scramble them, its only fair) Let's know ur suggestions. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
sheppeh	Posted - 2006.03.06 15:55:00 - [2] Then Fit your WARP SCRAMBLING FTW SETUP and stop whining
Kerin Blackhand	Posted - 2006.03.06 15:58:00 - [3] So you're upset that people are using the defense for your attack and you actually have to use thought and effort to pull off your gate gank? Cry me a river. -------- Genghis Khan likes corndogs.
Dark Eulogy	Posted - 2006.03.06 15:59:00 - [4] Edited by: Dark Eulogy on 06/03/2006 15:59:53 In a rupture yesterday I was beating a cyclone. He warped out against 1 scram. Dropped my web and fit 2 scrams, made it so much harder to get close to him, but still did and he warped out again. Fking ridiculous. And he was combat fitted.
Tar Magen	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:03:00 - [5] Boo hoo, so people out in the belts actually have some means to survive. They should all just power down and die quietly when you appear, hmm? I'm sure you'd love that.
Montero	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:06:00 - [6] learn to tackle tbh. now leave my sig alone damn ISD
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:08:00 - [7] "In a rupture yesterday I was beating a cyclone. He warped out against 1 scram. Dropped my web and fit 2 scrams, made it so much harder to get close to him, but still did and he warped out again. Fking ridiculous. And he was combat fitted." Sounds pretty reasonable, actually... his "combat fit" was so gimped due to fitting that many WCS, it made the battlecruiser lose to a cruiser twice in a row. But allowed him to do the very thing it was configured for -- run away when things turn out sour. Annoying? yes, but the alternative would likely be him running full combat setup instead, and you finding yourself in the pod in the end... -.o
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:08:00 - [8] id love it, good idea. or atleast make em midslot, let em use cap and make em active. btw learn to fight if u have to use wcs on combat ships. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:12:00 - [9] Originally by: j0sephine Annoying? yes, but the alternative would likely be him running full combat setup instead, and you finding yourself in the pod in the end... -.o omg you mean there would be a chance of a proper fight? /signed I would rather lose to a properly setup ship than have a stabbed up ship warp out on me.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:17:00 - [10] "omg you mean there would be a chance of a proper fight?" What, you don't find a fight where the losing side runs instead of staying to the bitter end, "a proper one"? Chivalry is dead. Got backstabbed by the "survival of the fittest" theory a while ago. "I would rather lose to a properly setup ship than have a stabbed up ship warp out on me." Would you willingly stay there and allow the enemy to pop you if you knew you stand no chance? ^^ because this is basically what WCS is, a mean to hold down someone who knows they can't win, and acts accordingly...

Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:23:00 - [11] Edited by: Shibby DoWa on 06/03/2006 16:23:27 Originally by: j0sephine What, you don't find a fight where the losing side runs instead of staying to the bitter end, "a proper one"? You either out-tank the opponent, jam him so you're no longer warp scrambled, drain his cap, etc. Otherwise you die. ** happens. Originally by:** j0sephine Would you willingly stay there and allow the enemy to pop you if you knew you stand no chance? ^^ No, if I realised I was losing I would try my damn hardest to get out of scrambling range and escape. However, I would be forced to actually use my brain to try and get out of a fight (or even win it) instead of fitting 2+ identical modules that does just that. Originally by: j0sephine Chivalry is dead. Got backstabbed by the "survival of the fittest" theory a while ago. actually, it got backstabbed by 150m hac prices :)
Blind Man	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:37:00 - [12] i dont fit webs anymore, only scrams, sadly it isnt enough and /signed btw i want to actually have to turn my reps and such on once in a while i wish i could just get some more fair fights... __________ Current Vid
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:39:00 - [13] Edited by: j0sephine on 06/03/2006 16:39:55 "You either out-tank the opponent, jam him so you're no longer warp scrambled, drain his cap, etc. Otherwise you die. *** happens."* So, you basically set up your ship in a way that allows you to escape. But doing so directly, by fitting modules that allow exactly that and nothing else is a no-no..? When you think of it, all these cases are no different really. You set up ship for some specific task. So someone is a coward and figures they will do more running than fighting. Their choice. Asking for boost to scrambler strength is effectively taking this option away. just wish CCP did something darth solo suggested long time ago, that is make the stabs turn your ship more pink with each WCS fitted. Then you'd know exactly what to expect... :s "No, if I realised I was losing I would try my damn hardest to get out of scrambling range and escape. However, I would be forced to actually use my brain to try and get out of a fight (or even win it) instead of fitting 2+ identical modules that does just that." Except fitting your ship in a way that turns out most beneficial in the encounters you run into is part of "actually using the brain"... I don't like the WCS setups, but i recognize it's mostly because it forces me to work harder to actually get a kill. It's a valid --if cowardly-- tactics and i really can't think of good reason to take it away. ("it'd make my life easier" isn't really good reason on the game level, rather than personal one)
Le'et	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:49:00 - [14] Doubling the strength would not change much as people would fit more wcs. The real fix would be to apply the stacking penalty on these mods like all others. But round up. ceiling[Apply stacking penalty(wcs*amount fitted)] Or just fit 3 point 2's and have a succesful tackle.
Easy Kill	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Blind Man btw i want to actually have to turn my reps and such on once in a while i wish i could just get some more fair fights... There is no such thing as a fair fight unless both players have identical ships, fittings and skills, thus reducing the fight to dumb luck. That is not the type of game I want to be playing thank you very much.
Kye Kenshin	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:52:00 - [16] Just give them a combat penalty like a scan resolution penalty thats so bad that at 4 stabs it would take an hour to lock a BS. Then you would see and end to this nonsense.
VonKaplanek III	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:52:00 - [17] Learn how to tackle,or get a friend with interdictor or bubbles and stop your whining...
TheOnyx	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Trevedian ...and it takes an army to get someone tackled. CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling... WCS FTW ! Why the hell should we have Warp Core Stabs in game at all actually... ....sigh....
Schinoble	Posted - 2006.03.06 16:57:00 - [19] Edited by: Schinoble on 06/03/2006 16:59:04 i dont like it, its the only defence we have against pirates. Make it so it works like an anti-damage mod, equiping each WC has a penalty to your tracking speed, range and damage. so the people that really need a WC to surive arnt hurt, and the people who use it as an escape card should be penalised. Or maybe your on board computers cant handle firing weapons and using a WCS, making it so if you fire any weapon/EW at a target your WCS goes off for 30 seconds.
TheOnyx	Posted - 2006.03.06 17:00:00 - [20] Come on now ! WCS is there to use SO THAT U CANNOT BE SCRAMBLED !!!!! Jeez....u would prolly like a button on ure ship that sais "Invincible" and not having to do anything for it. If u want to be sure u scramble someone you'll have to use more scramblers. It's that simple. Bye bye mid slots...yes. Choices choices... Another senseless discussion...

Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 17:15:00 - [21] Edited by: Shibby DoWa on 06/03/2006 17:16:18 Originally by: VonKaplanek III Learn how to tackle,or get a friend with interdictor or bubbles and stop your whining... if you can show me how a stilleto (the thing is designed for tackling) can tackle a fully stabbed geddon I would love to hear it. and not everyone fights in 0.0 where interdiction spheres can be used. Ask the MC how much use they will get out of interdictors when on an empire contract. Quote: Except fitting your ship in a way that turns out most beneficial in the encounters you run into is part of "actually using the brain"... Can you honestly say the NPCer/PVPer who warped away from 4 points because he had 5 stabs fitted is a tactical mastermind? It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat. Quote: I don't like the WCS setups, but i recognize it's mostly because it forces me to work harder to actually get a kill. It's a valid --if cowardly-- tactics and i really can't think of good reason to take it away. ("it'd make my life easier" isn't really good reason on the game level, rather than personal one) I don't like WCS setups because having to have 2 dedicated stilettos plus heavy firepower just to have a chance of holding down and killing one ship. It makes solo combat almost impossible unless they are stabless, and turns small gang combat into "find a lone target and gank it". There are far too many people PVPing with stabs who are basically looking for cheap kills. If they attack a ship that offers some form of resistance they just select a moon/planet and warp away. My main character is a former pirate and had his fair share of NPCers warp out on him which is (just about) acceptable - they are not trying to fight. What really grated was when 4-5 pirate hunters would try and attack me and warp out the moment I started dealing damage, dispite me having a -2 on them. Those 2 stabs were far more effective than any form of tank they could've possibly fitted. I survived the fight btw (crawled to docking range with 1/2 structure) so this isn't a "I got ganked by carebears with stabs" rant :). If people wish to stab up that's fine, but either give them a stacking penalty, give them a ship penalty or improve the tools to counter them. Or just remove the bloody things and force people to learn how to fight properly :). Originally by: j0sephine just wish CCP did something darth solo suggested long time ago, that is make the stabs turn your ship more pink with each WCS fitted. Then you'd know exactly what to expect... :s
TheKiller8	Posted - 2006.03.06 17:16:00 - [22] They should just add a slight petite penalty to WCS to discourage use in PvP. Like this: Quote: Warp Core Stabalizer I When activated this unit attempts to compensate for fluctuations and disruptions of the ships warp core. Warning: Recent studies have shown that the WCS might actually be an instrument created by Satan. If you wish to inflict harm on someone the WCS may react to your hateful intent, fuelling itself with your negative thoughts until it eventually bursts creating an incident. Incidents include but are not limited to a decrease of performance from the ship systems, random modules going offline, the ship no longer responding to commands, the ship violently exploding, your wallet being drained, skills being lost or the sudden rapid increase of the temperature of your capsule's synthetic amniotic fluid, causing you to boil alive. .: Click 2 See My Flash Animations :.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 17:17:00 - [23] Originally by: TheOnyx Come on now ! WCS is there to use SO THAT U CANNOT BE SCRAMBLED !!!!! Jeez....u would prolly like a button on ure ship that sais "Invincible" and not having to do anything for it. If u want to be sure u scramble someone you'll have to use more scramblers. It's that simple. Bye bye mid slots...yes. Choices choices... Another senseless discussion... Originally by: TheOnyx Originally by: Trevedian ...and it takes an army to get someone tackled. CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling... WCS FTW ! Why the hell should we have Warp Core Stabs in game at all actually... ....sigh.... you do realise you're not actually making any sense?
Trevedian	Posted - 2006.03.06 17:51:00 - [24] Edited by: Trevedian on 06/03/2006 17:52:39 I am saying warp core stabs are over powered... Everyone knows and agrees that they are except carebears that haven't a clue about PVP... PVP is suffering as a result of WCS being way overpowered, and something needs to be done! Make a stacking penalty for WCS, or have them bork ur CPU or somethin'. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
MadGaz	Posted - 2006.03.06 17:55:00 - [25] Make them highslot, that'd solve it.
Breed Love	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:00:00 - [26] Originally by: TheKiller8 They should just add a slight petite penalty to WCS to discourage use in PvP. Like this: Quote: Warp Core Stabalizer I When activated this unit attempts to compensate for fluctuations and disruptions of the ships warp core. Warning: Recent studies have shown that the WCS might actually be an instrument created by Satan. If you wish to inflict harm on someone the WCS may react to your hateful intent, fuelling itself with your negative thoughts until it eventually bursts creating an incident. Incidents include but are not limited to a decrease of performance from the ship systems, random modules going offline, the ship no longer responding to commands, the ship violently exploding, your wallet being drained, skills being lost or the sudden rapid increase of the temperature of your capsule's synthetic amniotic fluid, causing you to boil alive. Now back on topic, personally I think warp scramblers are way overpowered, they should use atleast 2x as much cap and only scramble for -1 strength. Also wcs need a boost very badly, +2 strength for t1 and plz introduce t2 which would have +4 strength. Im not being sarcastic btw!
Mudkest	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Trevedian PVP is suffering as a result of WCS being way overpowered, and something needs to be done! Make a stacking penalty for WCS, or have them bork ur CPU or somethin'. so then where is the penalty for warp scramblers? dont say theye use cap, because 1 cap per second is not really all that impressive. at least the 5 cap per sec for the disrupters can be hard on frigates.
Kyo Kuno	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:14:00 - [28] Originally by: TheKiller8 They should just add a slight petite penalty to WCS to discourage use in PvP. Like this: Quote: Warp Core Stabalizer I When activated this unit attempts to compensate for fluctuations and disruptions of the ships warp core. Warning: Recent studies have shown that the WCS might actually be an instrument created by Satan. If you wish to inflict harm on someone the WCS may react to your hateful intent, fuelling itself with your negative thoughts until it eventually bursts creating an incident. Incidents include but are not limited to a decrease of performance from the ship systems, random modules going offline, the ship no longer responding to commands, the ship violently exploding, your wallet being drained, skills being lost or the sudden rapid increase of the temperature of your capsule's synthetic amniotic fluid, causing you to boil alive. I like this idea better than making WCS high slot modules. WCS should only be used for those who do not want to be in combat. Those who use it in combat should experience the incidents mentioned above.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:16:00 - [29] Originally by: Shibby DoWa Originally by: j0sephine Annoying? yes, but the alternative would likely be him running full combat setup instead, and you finding yourself in the pod in the end... -.o omg you mean there would be a chance of a proper fight? /signed I would rather lose to a properly setup ship than have a stabbed up ship warp out on me. QFT, I would much, much prefer to die to them in that case, they earned the kill.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Mudkest Originally by: Trevedian PVP is suffering as a result of WCS being way overpowered, and something needs to be done! Make a stacking penalty for WCS, or have them bork ur CPU or somethin'. so then where is the penalty for warp scramblers? dont say theye use cap, because 1 cap per second is not really all that impressive. at least the 5 cap per sec for the disrupters can be hard on frigates. 1) cap (20ks kill frig's caps), where as a stab is easier to fit and uses no cap 2) range - you need to get within either 20km (risky) or 7.5km (suicidal), while a stab by it's very nature works at any range

Zysco	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:18:00 - [31] Edited by: Zysco on 06/03/2006 18:19:23 We definately needed another thread on this, its been what... 3 days? Oh no wait its been 5 days since a 8 page thread was posted on this, on page 2. callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back
Christopher Multsanti	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:20:00 - [32] To be honest I dont care that a carebear that wants to run away fits WCS's, I do care that "PVP'ers" engage you, want a fight with you and then when it goes bad, warp away while scrambled. The Dread Killers
Zhon	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:30:00 - [33] The sad part about this is 8/10 times it is the pirate (Ganker) that is running 1-8 stabs. Take a high damage ship come in gank a soft target and then leave. WCS are part of the game just like everything else. Pirates use them just as much aa pvp players and npc players do. Like someone said when people fit WCS to their setup they are gimping their ship and it is a fair tradeoff. Now that pirates of been WCS up they find their prey are doing the same and it ***es them off so now they have to changed their tactic to win perhaps even..... Gasp*... take thier WCS off. What I would like to see is the warp scrambling scenrio played out like the Jamming is. A roll of the die. Doesnt matter if you have 1 or 8 stabs on there will always be chance the your going to roll a 1 and you get scramed. IT would make people think twice about fitting absurd amounts of WCS and gimping them selves severly if they wernt always going to not get get jammed. People use to fit 2-4 Gravmetric backup units on to scorps and raven to prevent jamming i havnt seen anyone even so much as look at the modules since the changed the way jamming worked. Is it because the module is useless?... No. IT is because it is not guaranteed and you feel like you are waisting a low slot.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:31:00 - [34] "Can you honestly say the NPCer/PVPer who warped away from 4 points because he had 5 stabs fitted is a tactical mastermind?" A mastermind, no. But someone who took into account possibility they'd have to run, fitted accordingly and enjoyed the benefits of this decision, yes. It did take some thinking and choice making, and if it happens to pay off... then go them. No point in crying it's unfair. "It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat." Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... "I don't like WCS setups because having to have 2 dedicated stilettos plus heavy firepower just to have a chance of holding down and killing one* ship."* Well, this is extremal situation. And note, if you are talking of something like 'geddon with all slots filled with WCS, then a couple of interceptors with multiple scramblers is all it takes to kill it once they have it pinned down. Because we're talking of ship that has no defense whatsoever -- all it can do is run with secondary option of possibly shooting for some lame amount of damage. "It makes solo combat almost impossible unless they are stabless" Well, you can have +4 scramble strength on pretty much any ship that you'd take in combat. It won't perform as perfectly nice as ship running just single disruptor but hey, a WCS ship doesn't perform perfectly, either. Choices and risk taking. And if we reverse the argument, the suggested changes would make avoiding combat while solo next to impossible. Would this be positive for game overall..? "There are far too many people PVPing with stabs who are basically looking for cheap kills. If they attack a ship that offers some form of resistance they just select a moon/planet and warp away." Well, and here is the catch: if you are warp scrambling someone preventing them from running, then it could be said you're effectively trying to get "cheap kill" yourself... because at the point someone tries to run they already acknowledged they're no match for you, and are about to lose. So asking to have it easier to scramble and have it harder to escape? This is in the end asking for the very thing you dislike -- easy way to get easy kills. -.^
danneh	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:37:00 - [35] Warp core stabilizer: Penalty loss of all high/medium slots, yes plz.
Nybbas	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:37:00 - [36] I am fine with WCS used to be safe in travel etc, but it really ****es me off when people use them for combat... I say just make wcs cause all activated offensive modules, guns, ecm, nosf, to have a 50% activation penalty (in the case of ecm, it would double their activation time while still only having a 20 seconds cycle....)
Rusty PwnStar	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:44:00 - [37] Originally by: j0sephine "Can you honestly say the NPCer/PVPer who warped away from 4 points because he had 5 stabs fitted is a tactical mastermind?" A mastermind, no. But someone who took into account possibility they'd have to run, fitted accordingly and enjoyed the benefits of this decision, yes. It did take some thinking and choice making, and if it happens to pay off... then go them. No point in crying it's unfair. "It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat." Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... "I don't like WCS setups because having to have 2 dedicated stilettos plus heavy firepower just to have a chance of holding down and killing one* ship."* Well, this is extremal situation. And note, if you are talking of something like 'geddon with all slots filled with WCS, then a couple of interceptors with multiple scramblers is all it takes to kill it once they have it pinned down. Because we're talking of ship that has no defense whatsoever -- all it can do is run with secondary option of possibly shooting for some lame amount of damage. "It makes solo combat almost impossible unless they are stabless" Well, you can have +4 scramble strength on pretty much any ship that you'd take in combat. It won't perform as perfectly nice as ship running just single disruptor but hey, a WCS ship doesn't perform perfectly, either. Choices and risk taking. And if we reverse the argument, the suggested changes would make avoiding combat while solo next to impossible. Would this be positive for game overall..? "There are far too many people PVPing with stabs who are basically looking for cheap kills. If they attack a ship that offers some form of resistance they just select a moon/planet and warp away." Well, and here is the catch: if you are warp scrambling someone preventing them from running, then it could be said you're effectively trying to get "cheap kill" yourself... because at the point someone tries to run they already acknowledged they're no match for you, and are about to lose. So asking to have it easier to scramble and have it harder to escape? This is in the end asking for the very thing you dislike -- easy way to get easy kills. -.^ Very well put, i'm not sure I could have said it better myself.
Hellraiza666	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:48:00 - [38] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists btw learn to fight if u have to use wcs on combat ships. i agree =) also signed, either nerf stabs or boost scramblers
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:49:00 - [39] I don't have any problems with stab abusers anymore. I use no guns... i smack to death.
Derran	Posted - 2006.03.06 18:55:00 - [40] Originally by: j0sephine Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... Well put. I agree. I'll agree with the original idea if they make WCS strength 2 at the same time.:) I find it incredible that pirates constantly complain about this though. Especially when it is someone from Krom when one of their pilots has a vagabond with 5 WCS on it. Of course, 3 7.5k warp scramblers fixes that problem.

Zysco	Posted - 2006.03.06 19:02:00 - [41] Originally by: LUKEC I don't have any problems with stab abusers anymore. Yeah i dunno i guess some people just f1-f8 while flying and dont actually fly their ships? As long as you have 1 fast ship its pretty simple to stop stab *****s... callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back
xenorx	Posted - 2006.03.06 19:10:00 - [42] CCP needs to go back to the way it used to be a couple of years ago with WCS being a mid slot modual.
Shoele Lialos	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:03:00 - [43] Originally by: Shibby DoWa Edited by: Shibby DoWa on 06/03/2006 16:23:27 No, if I realised I was losing I would try my damn hardest to get out of scrambling range and escape. However, I would be forced to actually use my brain to try and get out of a fight (or even win it) instead of fitting 2+ identical modules that does just that. and Originally by: Shibby DoWa Edited by: Shibby DoWa on 06/03/2006 17:16:18 Can you honestly say the NPCer/PVPer who warped away from 4 points because he had 5 stabs fitted is a tactical mastermind? It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat. I was wondering, just how did you get 4 points of scramble going without "fitting 2+ identical modules?" Shouldn't you start a thread complaining that other forms of defense are OP'd? Armor repairers? Hardeners? Shield Extenders? It's rock-paper-scissors. Just because you only know how to throw out rock, doesn't mean the rest of the world has to keep playing scissors so you can keep winning.
FileCop AI	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:09:00 - [44] Use interdictor, bubbles, friends, alts, more scramblers and stop whining about it ;) Stabs nerf a setup just as much as fitting more scramblers would. And before you say you can't use interdictors in empire for pirating. Who cares. Death to pirates ;) Come to 0.0 ;) FileCop AI of MASS
Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:22:00 - [45] oo, i know, i know.... Make it so that ther is an absolute scamble strength. If you fit a scrambler and a wcs, you get a net result of 0... +1 strength for WCS and -1 for the Scram... Now, you PVPer's have a choice... you can try and hold your enemy in place (hopefully for you) or fight and have a chance to run away. Probably a coding nightmare but an interesting way to penalize the use of both scrams and wcs at the same time. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 20:59:00 - [46] seeing as I can't log in I might as well troll some more Originally by: j0sephine "It's a shame that the easiest method of avoiding combat - fitting a passive module and then forgetting about it - is also the most powerful way of avoiding combat." Why? the easiest and most powerful way to kill the enemy is fitting the weapons and damage mods. The easiest and most powerful way to tank damage is to fit hardeners and repairers. The easiest and most powerful way to move fast is fit the MWD. The easiest and most powerful way to keep someone from moving is fitting the webifier. The easiest way to hold someone down finally is to fit the modules which do exactly that, warp scramble. Stabs are absolutely no different here. They are here for very specific purpose and they do what they're intended for... Which weapons? which ammo? Will your cap hold out for long enough while firing? Which hardeners should I fit - passive or active? How long can I sustain my repairers and should I dedicate some spare slots for cap modules? Do I fit a MWD and gimp my setup or go for an afterburner which although is slower, gives me more cap and more fitting room? Do my guns track well enough with or without a web? Will I need -6 to keep the enemy in place so a web is a no go? Do I fit 20kms and be pretty safe at the expence of only having probably 1-3 points, or do I dare risk going in a 7.5km where I could get webbed and torn to shreds? Like I said, I have no problem if people fit stabs but they need their role defined, i.e. to allow safe travel, not to PVP. The only real tactical decision that come with stabs is "how many low slots do I have" and "how much CPU do I have". Quote: "I don't like WCS setups because having to have 2 dedicated stilettos plus heavy firepower just to have a chance of holding down and killing one* ship."* Well, this is extremal situation. And note, if you are talking of something like 'geddon with all slots filled with WCS, then a couple of interceptors with multiple scramblers is all it takes to kill it once they have it pinned down. Because we're talking of ship that has no defense whatsoever -- all it can do is run with secondary option of possibly shooting for some lame amount of damage. Once they have it pinned down, all the geddon needs to do is let light drones on one of the targets and slap a nos on it and he will either flee or die. Quote: And if we reverse the argument, the suggested changes would make avoiding combat while solo next to impossible. Would this be positive for game overall..? Again I'm all for people trying to avoid combat if they don't want to fight. Running of once they realise they're not going to win by fitting 7-8 stabs is what gets on my nerves. Quote: "There are far too many people PVPing with stabs who are basically looking for cheap kills. If they attack a ship that offers some form of resistance they just select a moon/planet and warp away." Well, and here is the catch: if you are warp scrambling someone preventing them from running, then it could be said you're effectively trying to get "cheap kill" yourself... because at the point someone tries to run they already acknowledged they're no match for you, and are about to lose. So asking to have it easier to scramble and have it harder to escape? This is in the end asking for the very thing you dislike -- easy way to get easy kills. -.^ Like I said, if that person didn't want to fight they should stab-up and run, not try and engage and then warp off it when it all goes wrong. hmmm I have an idea. Every time you activate a warp scrambler, all your stabs turn off for 5 minutes. NPCers won't be using scramblers so they'll be safe, same goes for haulers. And as for "PVPers", it will make them grow some balls and fight properly . Problem solved (well it would make me happy anyway).
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:06:00 - [47] Originally by: MadGaz Make them highslot, that'd solve it. Yes, because we need to nerf indy's use of stabs, and we need Tempests with 6 1400mm, a full tank, ECM mids AND 2 WCS. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Ahop Yol	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:25:00 - [48] Increasing scrambler strength negates the use of tacklers to a great extent. Your ship is not supposed to be a pwnmobile, no matter what class it is. Use more tacklers - DO NOT ask for this role to be made obsolete due to your own lack of brains/tactics.
Ch'tok	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:26:00 - [49] Edited by: Ch''tok on 06/03/2006 21:28:56 Corrected. Originally by: Trevedian Edited by: Trevedian on 06/03/2006 17:52:39 I am saying warp core scrams are over powered... Everyone knows and agrees that they are except gankers that haven't a clue about EVE... EVE is suffering as a result of scrams being way overpowered, and something needs to be done! Make a stacking penalty for scrams, or have them bork ur CPU or somethin'
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:28:00 - [50] Damn j0sephine laying the smackdown in this thread heh. Noone fights solo hardly anymore. Even some of the decent factions are affraid to solo. It's all about the gank and the smacktalk after the gank. The idea of tech II warp scramblers/disruptors seems ok but it still leaves you with the same problem. You would have to stack them to counter high WCS fitted ships. It would just need less modules to do so. The 6 point stiletto would now become 9 point and the 2 (disruptor) point ship becomes 4 point. Which helps out a lot being some don't fit more than 2 while other ships like Raven fit more than 2. Anyways, I like the idea of making warp jamming like ECM. Chances to fail, skills to increase the chance to negate WCS (Countermesure), and still useful in one module as well stacked. I also like the idea of the racial populsion and fitting the correct jammer for the correct race. Where the correct racial has more streangth than the multi-spec. Which would be the same strength as a scrambler but at longer ranges. So a lot of diffrent ways as well maybe more skill ideas to enhance EW and still make the balance of escaping being ganked all in one :P

cytosci1	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:32:00 - [51] Edited by: cytosci1 on 06/03/2006 21:32:48 How about dmg penalty? Anyway, Just give us tech 2 Warp scramblers and Disrupters..... /signed
hylleX	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:38:00 - [52] signed ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well kids you've tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is: never try
Raid	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:39:00 - [53] Nothing wrong with using stabs. Adapt how you use scramblers and tacklers. tbh, if you dont fit a stab these days you give yourself a tacktical disadvantage. The number of ganks vs straight fights is always rising. It's not about pride its about being smart about how you fight. If you dont have stabs and you get ganked thats our own fault for being too proud.
Hanover	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:39:00 - [54] It is so unfair that people fit EM and thermal hardeners that decrease my laser damage by 50%!!! zoinks! I need my laser damage doubled to counter these people and their lame tactics!!!!!!1!!! grow up, there is not a single module in the game that is an "i win". There are counters for everything, if someone has a counter to your setup with one scrambler, fit two. If someone has a counter to your two scramblers fit three.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:40:00 - [55] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Damn j0sephine laying the smackdown in this thread heh it's like arguing with a politician - even though they're wrong they still come out smelling of roses
Foulis	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:50:00 - [56] There is absolutely nothing wrong with stabs. The other nigth I ran into a raven with 5x WCS, what did I do? I used this nifty module I like to call "Friends" and took it out. If you make Warp Scramblers stronger, it will screw everyone, period. Leave them the way they are and learn to use teamwork. And I swear to ***** god if another WCS thread pops up this week I'm hunting down the OP. ---- I <3 Taranis Cake > Pie - Imaran Originally by:** CCP Hammer Boobies
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 21:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Foulis There is absolutely nothing wrong with stabs. The other nigth I ran into a raven with 5x WCS, what did I do? I used this nifty module I like to call "Friends" and took it out. If you make Warp Scramblers stronger, it will screw everyone, period. Leave them the way they are and learn to use teamwork. And I swear to ******* god if another WCS thread pops up this week I'm hunting down the OP. but 3 on 1 isn't fun
Anjerrai Meloanis	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:02:00 - [58] Originally by: Derran I find it incredible that pirates constantly complain about this though. Especially when it is someone from Krom when one of their pilots has a vagabond with 5 WCS on it. Of course, 3 7.5k warp scramblers fixes that problem. watch out, trev will call you a carebear if youre not careful and btw stop thinking so backward. surely rather than saying "omg nerf wcs" perhaps think of an idea of actually fixing the problem? like a whole new system on how ships get scrambled? perhaps have a warp drive capacitor with modules that drain the cap, and such, just an idea. the wcs nerfing issue has been around ever since i started eve, and probably when you started i imagine. wcs and warp scramblers have been around for 3 years (i think) so maybe its time for a new system of some kind. i agree with you on one side but on the other, wcs is a countermeasure. if youre going to nerf something nerf the use of wcs, nos and ecm in conjunction. uh.
Naal Morno	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:09:00 - [59] Warp scramblers/WCS will soon get revameped. This will be 2nd attempt to do it, to make them work like jammers/back up arrays.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:13:00 - [60] It really doesnt matter if you gimp your ship by fitting WCS, what is there to gimp when you are garaunteed to live??

Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:17:00 - [61] And guaranteed to have to USE it? Plus it's not a guarantee. Web and ram, baby. PS, no, chance based scrambling would be le suck. I'm all for stack-based scrambling (as previously described). Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Seto Mazzarotto	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:27:00 - [62] Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both.
Ch'tok	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:30:00 - [63] Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both. Scramblers than as well, of course. Tackle or fight, not both.
Jacinto Naysmith	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:31:00 - [64] I usually avoid these threads but its getting ridiculous. Warpcore stabs already have a penalty, your lack of thought when equipping your ships is the problem, not stabs.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Ch'tok Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both. Scramblers than as well, of course. Tackle or fight, not both. erm what?
Ante	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:54:00 - [66] Edited by: Ante on 06/03/2006 22:54:46 Originally by: Ch'tok Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both. Scramblers than as well, of course. Tackle or fight, not both. Are you sure you aren't a certain somebody's alt making a sly comment about interceptors? Originally by: OrangeAfroMan It really doesnt matter if you gimp your ship by fitting WCS, what is there to gimp when you are garaunteed to live?? The one exception being if you get ganked. As it is atm WCS promote ganking. How the hell is this a good thing?
xHoodx	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:54:00 - [67] Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? Just add the penalties up and apply to the scan res, a geddon with 8 of those babies would have his scan resolution reduced to 20% and he'd have a hard time getting a lock on anything in time to do any real fighting, unless he fills all his 3 mid slots with sensor boosters which still wouldn't do all that much and he'd have no room for scramblers or anything like that. Should discourage people from using many of them on combat setups. Might gimp npcers a bit much if they like fitting lots of em, not sure how many people actually fit much more than 2 of them tho... Doesn't really make any difference to haulers and the like.
Chronus26	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:54:00 - [68] I do not like this idea. -----
Sara Finn	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:01:00 - [69] I've said it once, I'll say it again. Any major changes to the WCS (i.e., mid-slot or high-slot) hopelessly gimp the haulers and miners. You PvP'ers need to take the blinders off, take a deep relaxing breath, and think outside the little blood-covered boxes you live in.
VaderDSL	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:10:00 - [70] Edited by: VaderDSL on 06/03/2006 23:11:22 Why not simply make the WCS active, you have to activate them before you get scrambled to be able to shield your warp drive, however enabling the WCS causes normal power flow to be disrupted putting weapons offline or something to that effect. Means then people can't continue going around with the WCS simply active rather than them being passive, also means in PvP you have to actually use some skill to use them, in activating them before you get locked - granted the benefit is with the defender there in that he doesn't have to wait to get a lock. And same principle applies - you have to have as many WCS to counter the warp scramblers/disruptors. Maye have it also that the WCS means you have to reach say 90% of your top speed before you warp also? I dunno, it's open for adjustments.

Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:15:00 - [71] Originally by: Sara Finn I've said it once, I'll say it again. Any major changes to the WCS (i.e., mid-slot or high-slot) hopelessly gimp the haulers and miners. You PvP'ers need to take the blinders off, take a deep relaxing breath, and think outside the little blood-covered boxes you live in. I still say my idea was a good one - the moment you activate a warp scrambler, your stabs offline themselves. stops people pvping with stabs :)
Motec	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:16:00 - [72] I've had my fair share of game warp away once they realize they weren't going to win but never was I ignorant enough to realize that warp scramblers don't gimp my damage like wcs do. Warp scramblers also work 100% of the time if we hate on wcs its going to come back and bite tacklers in the rear. More tEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
Motec	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:16:00 - [73] I've had my fair share of game warp away once they realize they weren't going to win but never was I ignorant enough to realize that warp scramblers don't gimp my damage like wcs do. Warp scramblers also work 100% of the time if we hate on wcs its going to come back and bite tacklers in the rear. More threads about changing wcs, then a change follows suit, and Id give it two months before the forums is flooded with make scramblers a high slot and have a 'chance' to scramble. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:38:00 - [74] It is already a standard practice for me to use +6 points tackling. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:00:00 - [75] Edited by: j0sephine on 07/03/2006 00:01:30 "Which weapons? which ammo? Will your cap hold out for long enough while firing? Which hardeners should I fit - passive or active? (..)" Well, this is slightly diffrent issue -- that there's variety in modules of certain type that makes selection of exact config more difficult. But it doesn't really change the core, i.e. that certain types of modules are best suited for certain role. To emulate this, there could be more variety introduced for the WCS. Be it adding skills that increase their strength, or active version of WCS which costs cap to run but gives more strength. In the end though it wouldn't change the very thing you don't like -- that WCS _are_ designed to allow ships run despite being scrambled and they are best choice for this task. "Like I said, I have no problem if people fit stabs but they need their role defined, i.e. to allow safe travel, not to PVP." But they do have their role defined, it's even in their description. This role is to counter the effect of warp scramblers and that's it. How exactly is this functionality utilized is left to individual player, and it's said nowhere that one shouldn't be allowed to fit these modules as emergency "backup plan" if combat goes wrong. "Once they have it pinned down, all the geddon needs to do is let light drones on one of the targets and slap a nos on it and he will either flee or die." You might think so, but try to post this opinion in next thread about cap drainers and watch it grow 5 extra pages in less than hour -.^ "Again I'm all for people trying to avoid combat if they don't want to fight. Running of once they realise they're not going to win by fitting 7-8 stabs is what gets on my nerves." Well, then we're kind of back to square one -- i'd dare to say what you actually dislike is the fact this does allow them to get away, because they actually took into account the possibility they might be forced to run, and fit accordingly while your own setup wasn't configured to counter this... but you feel you "deserved" that kill because your ship turned out to be stronger in terms of offense/defense. Thing is, i think this conflict of opinions stems from the fact you see ships as simple balance of just that, offense and defense ... while they are actually more of balance between offense, defense, tackling _and_ counter-tackling. So, when you have a ship which hits hard and tanks well, but to do so sacrifices a lot in the area which is equally crucial if you want to secure the kill, i.e. the tackling. It's then small wonder such setup fails when facing another ship which on the other hand sacrifices a lot of offense and defense for strong anti-tackling. The problem (to me) is, rather than rethink your approach to ship configurations you're asking for the game mechanics to be changed, so the ship configurations become limited to match your (more narrow) idea of "what it's all about" i.e. just contest between who has better tank and harder hitting weapons... o.O;
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:04:00 - [76] Originally by: j0sephine The problem (to me) is, rather than rethink your approach to ship configurations you're asking for the game mechanics to be changed, so the ship configurations become limited to match your (more narrow) idea of "what it's all about" i.e. just contest between who has better tank and harder hitting weapons... o.O; no, I just want to keep a ******* geddon in place with a ship that has less than 5 spare midslots
madaluap	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:07:00 - [77] Edited by: madaluap on 07/03/2006 00:07:43 i just scrambled a rifter that was setup for pvp.. it warped tell me warpcorestabsfan is that what you want? yes? than i want roids to setoff a doomsday weapon every 10 mins _________________________________________________
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:11:00 - [78] "no, I just want to keep a ****** geddon in place with a ship that has less than 5 spare midslots "* Well, that's tough luck then i guess. I'd like to be able to armour-tank like crazy with a Scorpion or a Raven while using my mid slots for other stuff, but it's simply wrong tool for the job ^^;; A 'geddon can get pretty much immune to about any single ship if it drops enough WCS into the low slots. Just like Dominix can be ridiculously hard enemy to beat in most 1v1's ... it's just the way these ships are. Doesn't really have to mean the mechanics they utilize to achieve it are wrong on its own, and have to be changed...
Twin blade	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:11:00 - [79] Just grow up not every one want's to fight all the time if you want to fight so badly find another pirate and fight him and stop crying over people who are doing trade run's and such.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:13:00 - [80] Originally by: j0sephine Doesn't really have to mean the mechanics they utilize to achieve it are wrong on its own, and have to be changed... and that's where you and I differ :).

Yaro	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:13:00 - [81] ppl who dont like WCS pls listen, or read.... there r 2 different setups for ships: PVP and NPC... example1: Raven for solo pvp is...probably...meds ew...warp scrambler...lows sort of tank... example: Raven for ratting is meds hardeners and shield tank, lows bcu's and WCS !!!!!!....because with this setup I can only rat hunt and make isk...and not get killed by a bunch of *****s flying in a group of 10... ppl use 2 wcs because if a bunch of 10 *****s warps to a system with 10 belts...those ppl will have a chance to warp to a ss...and it doesnt mean that this raven pilot is a bad pilot...he simply makes isks to afford proper pvp !!! not fighting against a bunch of ass.....es in 10 frigs... Sincerely yours Yaro
Daos Leghki	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:34:00 - [82] To the people that want to make WCS have a stacking penalty: Consider that Armor/Shield hardeners have a stacking penalty. Now, consider that so do damage mods. Same thing with WCS, if the defensive mod doesn't stack well, neither should the offensive. It encourages group play. One guy with 4 Heatsinks does only a bit more damage than one guy with 3. Two guys, both with 2 heatsinks get more benefit out of those, and do more damage. The lesson: fly with teammates. <sarcasm> People keep on fitting these modules that take away my ability to kill them. The fight's going well, and suddenly, as I get to their armor, I almost stop doing damage to them. Please nerf hardeners </sarcasm> But seriously, use teammates. No ship should be able to do anything. Even the sniping 'Geddon can only shoot long-range and run. It can't tank, it can't scramble (not that it needs to).
Jacinto Naysmith	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:44:00 - [83] Originally by: xHoodx Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? like. Yes, yes it is. Warp core stabs already have a penalty: by equipping them you can't equip a combat oriented module. If you load your ships with stabs you can neither gank well nor tank well, the only thing you will be doing well is running.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:46:00 - [84] Originally by: Jacinto Naysmith Originally by: xHoodx Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? like. Yes, yes it is. Warp core stabs already have a penalty: by equipping them you can't equip a combat oriented module. If you load your ships with stabs you can neither gank well nor tank well, the only thing you will be doing well is running. unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight?
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:00:00 - [85] "unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight?" Well, last i checked, success in PvP involved actually being there and dealing damage to the enemy for long enough to kill their ship. "The biggest tank in the world" allows for exactly that, buys time before one needs to run, hopefully enough to dish out enough damage to kill the target as long as it stays there. Stabs on the other hand allow to run, but it kind of throws a spanner into the "need to be there and deal damage" part... -.o
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:05:00 - [86] Originally by: j0sephine "unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight?" Well, last i checked, success in PvP involved actually being there and dealing damage to the enemy for long enough to kill their ship. "The biggest tank in the world" allows for exactly that, buys time before one needs to run, hopefully enough to dish out enough damage to kill the target as long as it stays there. Stabs on the other hand allow to run, but it kind of throws a spanner into the "need to be there and deal damage" part... -.o the tactics (I feel I am being optimistic by suggesting there is more than one) behind stabs and combat are to sit there and do as much damage as possible before having to warp out. of course, the only targets they can generally hope to kill are 1/2 their size, hence we're back to cheap kill syndrome, unless they fit as follows: 1 20km scram as many multispecs as you have slots for as many stabs as you have slots for as many guns as you can fit It has almost 0% chance of being blown up, and will win a hell of a lot more fights than it will have to warp out of.
Rivek	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:10:00 - [87] Don't know if this was suggested, but why not just double the range on both disruptors and scramblers. Thus, the standard disruptor would be useful out to 40k (and long range ships could actually scramble) and strength 2 scramblers would be useful out to 15k making it much easier to land a stronger scramble on someone. Boost faction and officer scrams accordingly.
Amerigo Vespucci	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:11:00 - [88] What about this idea. Totaly rethink the WCS and points in general. Instead of a WCS giving invulnerability to x amount of points, make them Increase the capacitor used to scramble by z percent Think of it as the warp core is more stable, so the scrambler has to work harder to scramble the core. As long as the scrambler module is activated, the enemy cannot warp. Using 1 scramble on an 8 wcs geddon would take an immense ammount of cap, while having 1 wcs would take enough cap that it would not be very easy to keep the scramble using a standard frigate.
Exogene	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:25:00 - [89] Originally by: Shibby DoWa if you can show me how a stilleto (the thing is designed for tackling) can tackle a fully stabbed geddon I would love to hear it. And where is it written that a stilleto has to warp scramble a geddon under any circumstance. Please be realistic. Stabs are fine and i am glad that the non-pirate community is finally stepping up to get it's voice heard. What other protection does a 1 week old character have against a 1 year old 'pro' who hunts noobs and claims he is the best WCS are fine the way they are, not all people have pvp professions and i think people should have an option to properly defend themselves. WCS does just that and does it well. If you can't scramble someone get more warp jammers/tacklers, it is that simple really, not much of a brain teaser
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:29:00 - [90] Originally by: Exogene Originally by: Shibby DoWa if you can show me how a stilleto (the thing is designed for tackling) can tackle a fully stabbed geddon I would love to hear it. And where is it written that a stilleto has to warp scramble a geddon under any circumstance. Please be realistic. Stabs are fine and i am glad that the non-pirate community is finally stepping up to get it's voice heard. What other protection does a 1 week old character have against a 1 year old 'pro' who hunts noobs and claims he is the best WCS are fine the way they are, not all people have pvp professions and i think people should have an option to properly defend themselves. WCS does just that and does it well. If you can't scramble someone get more warp jammers/tacklers, it is that simple really, not much of a brain teaser what is that one week old noob doing in <= 0.4 which is meant to be low-security space in the first place?

j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:30:00 - [91] Edited by: j0sephine on 07/03/2006 01:31:07 "the tactics (I feel I am being optimistic by suggesting there is more than one) behind stabs and combat are to sit there and do as much damage as possible before having to warp out. of course, the only targets they can generally hope to kill are 1/2 their size, hence we're back to cheap kill syndrome" And this sort of Ginger Magician-like performance isn't exactly something that can be considered "being very successful at pvp" ... so i think you just made quite a part of point for me, here -.o (it answers your own question, "why fit tank when you can fit stabs instead" ... maybe precisely so your setup doesn't limit you to just ganking targets half your size that never posed a threat in first place) "unless they fit as follows: 1 20km scram as many multispecs as you have slots for as many stabs as you have slots for as many guns as you can fit It has almost 0% chance of being blown up, and will win a hell of a lot more fights than it will have to warp out of." This setup can be countered with single WCS or jammer as well, so how exactly do you expect it to win anything, let alone many fights..? It relies on the enemy running nothing but guns and tank otherwise the best you can expect is complete lack of resolution...
Adam Crossfire	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:34:00 - [92] Originally by: j0sephine "unless they fit as follows: 1 20km scram as many multispecs as you have slots for as many stabs as you have slots for as many guns as you can fit It has almost 0% chance of being blown up, and will win a hell of a lot more fights than it will have to warp out of." This setup can be countered with single WCS or jammer as well, so how exactly do you expect it to win anything, let alone many fights..? It relies on the enemy running nothing but guns and tank otherwise the best you can expect is complete lack of resolution... If something has to be countered with itself it is unbalanced.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:35:00 - [93] Originally by: j0sephine And this sort of Ginger Magician-like performance isn't exactly something that can be considered "being very successful at pvp" ... so i think you just made quite a part of point for me, here -.o GM has probably killed more people with his snipe and stab tactics than I've had hot dinners, same as burn eden with their damping/ecm stabbed ravens and other similar setups. It may be lame, they may be hated, but the setups work very well. Try tackling a BE raven in 0.1 and tell me how many ships you needed to use :). and on that note, I'm going to sleep as it's 1:30am. It's been a pleasure arguring with you :)
Tar Magen	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:40:00 - [94] Frigates scrambling battleships is a bit absurd anyhow. I suggest that cruisers and battlecruisers get +1 stability and that battleships get +2 stability automatically. Then provide cruiser and battleship-sized scramblers that do better than +1 or +2 warp scramble strength.
Prestis	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:44:00 - [95] If it's cool that people get to decide whether to run or fight when they fit WCS, why not just save the hassle and introduce a PvP-flag module? It's only a very small step further (unless you have your own personal army of ceptors) and stops people starting combat and then deciding to leave half way through.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:44:00 - [96] "If something has to be countered with itself it is unbalanced." But countering a ship with 1 point disruptor with WCS is not countering things with itself... it's countering with module that's supposed to provide exactly this functionality. (if your point is instead "ships with stabs and ecm are overpowered because they can be countered by ships with stabs and ecm" ... hey, ships with guns and tanks can be countered by ships with guns and tanks. Clearly 'tis a sign guns and tanks are overpowered and unbalanced as well? ;s
Pes T'Lance	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:44:00 - [97] The simple fact is scramblers, disruptors and WCS all work as intended. No 1 module is overpowered no 1 module is underpowered. All this complaining about how someone used WCS to escape a fight which was just lame and should be nerfed, can go the other way. Why the hell should anyone be able to stop someone from warping away? The plain and simple truth is, if you feel you should have a CCP given right to be able to stop someone from warping, then they should have the same right to be able to ensure they can warp. Ok so some people may be more concerned about hit and run in PVP (though I know a good amount are from people complaining about their free meal piracy being hurt), thats called guerrilla warfare, and is fully endorsed by CCP. Afterall it's the theoretically the minmattar fighting style. Like real guerrilla warfare, you deal less damage have less defence, but can get in and out easily and quickly. I'm sorry but a fully endorsed style of gameplay being used as intended is completely fair, you have the tools fight back against it, it's just your fault if you don't want to use them or don't know how to. Scramblers/disruptors with no counter = Overpowered Scramblers/disruptors with no range limitations = Overpowered Scramblers/disruptors that have double the strengh = Overpowered WCS made into high slot = caldari and ships like the dominix getting best of both as opposed to 1 or equall average. Not to mention the likes of indys suddenly become extremely easy targets. WCS being made mid slot = Caldari get best of both WCS causing limitations on other artificially imposed limitations on other areas of the ship should apply to Scramblers/disruptors. WCS = Better chance of escaping but less defence + offence, a big cpu hit (especially when used on the ships with the most lows as they have the least spare cpu) and requires 2x as many to counter scramblers. Scramblers = 2x the chance of stopping a ship in range but short range, uses cap and less defence on shield ships. Disruptors = 2.5x range to stop ships but uses more cap and less defence on shield ships. Bubbles = Guaranteed to stop any ship inside, but has to be dployed which takes time, has to be put inthe right place nad can be destroyed. Interdictor bubble = Guaranteed to stop any ship inside but needs alot of high level skills and the intedictor is a paper ship. Seems more in favour of the person wanting to stop someone escaping than the one who wants to run.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.03.07 02:02:00 - [98] ^ above is going to put Caldari into the whine spotlight soon. /me braces for impact. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Adam Crossfire	Posted - 2006.03.07 02:10:00 - [99] Originally by: j0sephine "If something has to be countered with itself it is unbalanced." But countering a ship with 1 point disruptor with WCS is not countering things with itself... it's countering with module that's supposed to provide exactly this functionality. (if your point is instead "ships with stabs and ecm are overpowered because they can be countered by ships with stabs and ecm" ... hey, ships with guns and tanks can be countered by ships with guns and tanks. Clearly 'tis a sign guns and tanks are overpowered and unbalanced as well? ;s Not true. WCS is a module, I've never heard of the "tank" module, nor the "gun" module. One type of gun fitting and tank fitting can be counteracted with another type of gun and tank fitting. Only deviation with wcs is them being named or t1.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.03.07 02:14:00 - [100] Is there any location/module specific damage? If not, then this would be an interesting solution that would further enrich pvp as a whole. Shoot out the warp core stabilizer and he can't jump away. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy

j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 02:22:00 - [101] "Not true. WCS is a module, I've never heard of the "tank" module, nor the "gun" module." A warp scrambler is also a module, so am really not seeing the issue, here. There is limited selection of modules when it comes to both scrambling and countering the scramble, but it's not changing the fact "scrambling" and "countering scrambling" are parts of combat mechanics just like "tanking" and "dealing damage" are...
Justin Cody	Posted - 2006.03.07 02:43:00 - [102] / deploys his bubble and ganks stabbed ships for lunch Please resize your signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques
Arashi Miike	Posted - 2006.03.07 02:51:00 - [103] I don't have much to add, as it seems j0sephine has said pretty much everything I would have. As a relatively newer player, I enjoy the ability to fit 1 or 2 WCSs to my ship so that when I'm flying around in lower sec space fighting cruiser and battlecruiser spawns in the belts, and some 2 year-old player in a battleship or HAC warps in, I have the option of turning and running. I'm not there for PvP, I'm there for PvE. I imagine the same would apply to an older player hunting rats in 0.0. CCP obviously did not want a game where we always have to fight, or always have to fight other players. Just like in real life, running is the smartest thing to do when you're outgunned, and CCP has made sure that we have a way to run. Sure, my setup isnt as good as if I'd put combat-related mods in the lows, and because I've given up those low slots, I'd probably lose at PvP against even a ship the same size. But I'm okay with that. In this way, WCSs are good for newer players. I sympathize with people who dislike pirates loading up on WCSs, flying around looking for easy kills, and then running the moment something the least bit threatening appears. While a valid tactic this may be, I also agree that it is somewhat cowardly. More importantly, however, it encourages a kind of environment that is harmful to newer players, like myself, since combat becomes nothing more than older players in better ships ganking newer players in less expensive ships. This is not a healthy game state, and in this way, WCSs are bad for newer players. I guess what I'm saying is that, as a newer player, I feel that, before you suggest any drastic changes to WCSs, think of the impact that those changes would have on those of who are not the most PvP oriented players. Yes, I realize that half of the alliance players and all of the pirates are going to scream: "What are you doing in low sec space if you're not ready for PvP?" Well, I get ready for PvP, starting with "WCS x 2". "I should have been a pair of ragged claws/ scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
Jacinto Naysmith	Posted - 2006.03.07 02:52:00 - [104] Originally by: Shibby DoWa Originally by: Jacinto Naysmith Originally by: xHoodx Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? like. Yes, yes it is. Warp core stabs already have a penalty: by equipping them you can't equip a combat oriented module. If you load your ships with stabs you can neither gank well nor tank well, the only thing you will be doing well is running. unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight? When you've warped away from the fight, you haven't killed the enemy. Thus you haven't been successful.
Ginger Magician	Posted - 2006.03.07 03:23:00 - [105] Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets. If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs.
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.03.07 03:25:00 - [106] Originally by: Ginger Magician Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets. If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs. -\|- Join LFC, become someone, become family.
Zakgram	Posted - 2006.03.07 12:01:00 - [107] Originally by: Trevedian CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling... No thanks. 1 module to disrupt at 20km, 1 module to resist the disrupt. Sounds fair. 1 module to disrupt x 2 at 7.5km vs. 2 modules to resist. Sounds like already in favour of the scrambler.
twit brent	Posted - 2006.03.07 12:06:00 - [108] signed WCS are imbalanced
Alliaanna Dalaii	Posted - 2006.03.07 12:11:00 - [109] So 2 midslots should = 8 lowslots ? Bearing in mind every module in eve has a counter (sort of) Rofl yeah right, quit whinning noobs and take more tacklers with you. Alliaanna Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-=
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.03.07 12:16:00 - [110] Originally by: Dark Eulogy Edited by: Dark Eulogy on 06/03/2006 15:59:53 In a rupture yesterday I was beating a cyclone. He warped out against 1 scram. Dropped my web and fit 2 scrams, made it so much harder to get close to him, but still did and he warped out again. Fking ridiculous. And he was combat fitted. So: A larger, more expensive ship, had more slots than you and could afford to fit stabs. What you're saying is, you want to be able to kill larger ships in your ftw ship without having to fit properly for it? I bet you think nos is overpowered because it stops lone frigs tackling Battleships worth 15x their price, too. The Eve Guild Wars Project!

FawKa	Posted - 2006.03.07 13:07:00 - [111] Lol, I really dont get why you think it isnt fair for haulers to fit their stabs. They are haulers ffs ! Cuz I dont think that many fighters uses low-slots to fit 3 stabs right? stop killing haulers - sign here, or what?
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.03.07 13:33:00 - [112] Originally by: Ginger Magician Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets. If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs. Nothing but a blob fest?... U need a friggin blob to catch them dammit, so why do you think people fly in great numbers these days?
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2006.03.07 13:34:00 - [113] Originally by: Yaro ppl who dont like WCS pls listen, or read.... there r 2 different setups for ships: PVP and NPC... I rat in a PvP setup, and I'm sure many others do too. You never know when you may be called up to fight (or you never know when you need to put some brash pilot in their place when they thought you were 'easy game') - Office Linebacker -
Alliaanna Dalaii	Posted - 2006.03.07 13:37:00 - [114] Edited by: Alliaanna Dalaii on 07/03/2006 13:37:09 Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Ginger Magician Without stabs EVE would be nothing but a blob fest.U cant win every fight and u cant expect to prevetn every target from warping no matter how many scramblers u have.There is always a penalty in either damage or tanking when u fit stabs.The only people who complain about stabs are those who only ever fly around in blob fleets. If u check the fittings of those players the few times they fly unescorted their low slots are almost invariably filled with wcs. Nothing but a blob fest?... U need a friggin blob to catch them dammit, so why do you think people fly in great numbers these days? O Rly ? Give me 10mill and 2 pilots and I can tackle any ship in Eve. (not saying the tacklers will live... but they will tackle ) [EDIT] I lied.. some ships are immune to scramblers... HAX Alliaanna Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-=
KIAEddZ	Posted - 2006.03.07 13:55:00 - [115] SIGNED!!!!! This is so overdue it isnt funny. ffs CCP sort it. KIA Piccys
Kerin Blackhand	Posted - 2006.03.07 14:02:00 - [116] It boils down to this: Jammers: +1 warp scramble strength from far away Scramblers: +2 warp scramble strength from closer in WCS: -1 warp scramble strength If you can't figure out how to stop someone when you have easy and ready access to a weapon twice as powerful as the defense for it on a module-for-module basis, then maybe the solution to your "problem" isn't removing the defense, eh? -------- Genghis Khan likes corndogs.
Keven	Posted - 2006.03.07 14:11:00 - [117] NO! NEVER! GO FIT a ****load of scrammers and gimp your ship the way i gimp mine with wc's!
General Mordakai	Posted - 2006.03.07 14:20:00 - [118] Originally by: Blind Man i dont fit webs anymore, only scrams, sadly it isnt enough and /signed btw i want to actually have to turn my reps and such on once in a while i wish i could just get some more fair fights... Jeeeeez. This is sad. What about the ppl who are getting ganked. Do u ever think someone DOESN'Twant to die? When u only been playing a few weeks and u get killed 25 times, it kinda discourages u from playing. Introduce stabs. NOW u stand a chance of survival when u dont have 3-10 ppl escorting u to a decent spot to make isk. Not everyone wants to be a pirate, nor do they want to be pirated all day every day with no means of escape except sacrificing their guns for stabs. And by the way, in my experience in eve, i have NEVER been in a fair fight. Always been 2 on 1 or more, and for someone who's only played around a month, how am i supposed to fight 2+ rats with way more SP?? In what world would someone who is being attacked with uber weapons(scrams)(scuds) not build something to counter it(stabs)(patriots)? C'mon now, stop crying. U ever go deer hunting and NOT get a deer? damn, imagine that. Im not spamming, just making sure u heard me *Dude, wheres my pic?!*
Yezah	Posted - 2006.03.07 14:23:00 - [119] Ok I posted this in another thread, but this is more active so I'll post it here too. "WCS should restrict dmg output. This would negatively effect NPCers (including me atm) but if you want to go farm rats in low sec you should be forced to take a risk for your reward. If you want to earn isk ratting without the risk stay in highsec or make a deal with an alliance. I think something like a 10% decrease in damage for all high slot modules (and drones) per WCS. So fitting 1 WCS wouldn't destroy your dmg, with 2 you'd be doing significantly less and with 3, 4 or more you'd be pretty low on damage. This prevents people who fit 5 stabs then go around trying to gank then running away as soon as it goes a bit wrong. If you want to fight you shouldn't fit many WCS. This wouldn't effect people traveling or hauling at all and neither would it effect miners so everyones happy (except poeple who want gank without risk and some NPCers). What do you think?"
General Mordakai	Posted - 2006.03.07 14:40:00 - [120] Originally by: Zakgram Originally by: Trevedian CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling... No thanks. 1 module to disrupt at 20km, 1 module to resist the disrupt. Sounds fair. 1 module to disrupt x 2 at 7.5km vs. 2 modules to resist. Sounds like already in favour of the scrambler. Ho-ly cow. That's the most intellegent response ive seen in this thread. How much more do u stinking rats need to be happy?? 1-1 is as fair as it gets, but when scramblers used YOU are already at an advantage. Put the shoe on the other foot. suppose u r the one lonely noob in a noob based corp getting ganked day in, day out and u have no means of survival. I almost stopped playing the game after a week until someone turned me onto stabs, so go cry about something else like "damn, i bought 500 lottory tickets and that guy only bought 1 and he won". Im not spamming, just making sure u heard me *Dude, wheres my pic?!*

General Mordakai	Posted - 2006.03.07 14:57:00 - [121] Originally by: Yezah Ok I posted this in another thread, but this is more active so I'll post it here too. "WCS should restrict dmg output. This would negatively effect NPCers (including me atm) but if you want to go farm rats in low sec you should be forced to take a risk for your reward. If you want to earn isk ratting without the risk stay in highsec or make a deal with an alliance. I think something like a 10% decrease in damage for all high slot modules (and drones) per WCS. So fitting 1 WCS wouldn't destroy your dmg, with 2 you'd be doing significantly less and with 3, 4 or more you'd be pretty low on damage. This prevents people who fit 5 stabs then go around trying to gank then running away as soon as it goes a bit wrong. If you want to fight you shouldn't fit many WCS. This wouldn't effect people traveling or hauling at all and neither would it effect miners so everyones happy (except poeple who want gank without risk and some NPCers). What do you think?" I think it's rediculous. As it is now, scramblers > stabs by +1, so why would u make stabs even less effective by sacrificing dmg. You are already loosing armor tanking, or dmg mod spots on your ship by fitting stabs, so it makes NPC'ing a lil bit harder in low sec. If your going to penalize stabs, then u have to penalize scramblers, which would be defeating the purpose. As it has been said before, if u can't scram em', USE MORE SCRAMERS!! The system works well as intended, and gives newer players a chance to survive to old age, instead of the old players killing everyone and having the galaxy to themselves. Which is what sounds like all the pirates want. Haven't u heard, piracy is illegal, and therefore should be penalized more in the game, not given an even greater unfair advantage. Im not spamming, just making sure u heard me *Dude, wheres my pic?!*
Skylar Keenan	Posted - 2006.03.07 15:17:00 - [122] Originally by: Trevedian Everyone is fitting a WCS FTW setup on their ships (including frigs) and it takes an army to get someone tackled. CCP needs to make 20km Warp Disruptors two strength and 7.5km Scramblers four strength for scrambling... I'm sure I had a violin somewhere... -----------------------------------------------
Severa Crest	Posted - 2006.03.07 15:43:00 - [123] I think any nerf to WCS will reduce the amount of people who want to PvP or go into dangerous space and mine or NPC. At least at the moment it is possible to stop them with a little forward thinking - what will you do when theres no-one there at all. Everyone hates having someone warp away from a fight, but i'd rather that than make targets even more scarce.
Kamikaaazi	Posted - 2006.03.07 15:48:00 - [124] Originally by: Severa Crest I think any nerf to WCS will reduce the amount of people who want to PvP or go into dangerous space and mine or NPC. At least at the moment it is possible to stop them with a little forward thinking - what will you do when theres no-one there at all. Everyone hates having someone warp away from a fight, but i'd rather that than make targets even more scarce. OMFG, did you even bother to read anything that was written earlier? Idea was that nerfing wcs wouldnt affect usual carebears, for them its still same good old wcs. Instead it would force wannabe pvp nublets to acctually fight and thats a good thing.
Severa Crest	Posted - 2006.03.07 15:58:00 - [125] I did read it, maybe i didnt make myself clear. Some people find it a big deal to lose ships - any ships even frigs. They likely will give up PvP after any WCS nerf due to loss of ships etc. Also the point i made about npc'ers - how will they kill the npcs if their ships are gimped?
Celador Nane	Posted - 2006.03.07 17:09:00 - [126] Originally by: Tar Magen Boo hoo, so people out in the belts actually have some means to survive. They should all just power down and die quietly when you appear, hmm? I'm sure you'd love that. Trust me, u can survive fine without WCS in belts, how u ask?, well... 1 = Use ur scanner 2 = Check local 3 = Use alt scouts 4 = Always stay alligned to a safespot (not a planet) 5 = Move away from the 15km warp in location 6 = Don't rat/mine in pirate infested areas 7 = Don't goto belts alone Warp core stabs are just there for ppl to lazy to do the above when belt piracy is concerned. If a pirate gets u and pinns u down in a belt, and has 2 scamblers fitted u deserve to get popped imo.
Hellspawn666	Posted - 2006.03.07 17:32:00 - [127] I wouldnt sign this if you gave me a golden pen, your argument sucks warp scram already has double the points of a warp core stab, making it +4 is just rediculas
Hellspawn666	Posted - 2006.03.07 17:37:00 - [128] Originally by: Kamikaaazi Originally by: Severa Crest I think any nerf to WCS will reduce the amount of people who want to PvP or go into dangerous space and mine or NPC. At least at the moment it is possible to stop them with a little forward thinking - what will you do when theres no-one there at all. Everyone hates having someone warp away from a fight, but i'd rather that than make targets even more scarce. OMFG, did you even bother to read anything that was written earlier? Idea was that nerfing wcs wouldnt affect usual carebears, for them its still same good old wcs. Instead it would force wannabe pvp nublets to acctually fight and thats a good thing. I fit wcs during pvp because i dont want lone bs turning up and tackling me while local fills up with 30 alliance buddies to gank me and then shout at me in local for being a pirate and a "ganka" despite the fact id engaged the bs 1 on 1... Until eve shifts away from gank fleets then wcs have to stay lets not make the exodus any worse.
JEBIV	Posted - 2006.03.07 17:49:00 - [129] /bump JEBIV formerly Kitkat, Jedi Knight pre-NGE - Damn you SOE, I want my my 3 years back!
Trevedian	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:10:00 - [130] Originally by: Hellspawn666 I wouldnt sign this if you gave me a golden pen, your argument sucks warp scram already has double the points of a warp core stab, making it +4 is just rediculas I think he means ridiculous, but "WOW!" warp scram are already double the strength of a stab, thanks for that valuable tidbit. (/emote rolls eyes) If you need to get within 7.5km of the target to use a warp scrambler, its not so unreasonable for more than double the strength of a 20km. 20 divided by 7.5 = 2.67 So ATM warp scramblers are gimped because its much more difficult to get within 7.5km of a target than 20km, and they only have double the strength. People fitting multiple WCS should be penalized. Make a harsh stacking penalty for them... Make Warp Disruptors stronger (Or release Tech2), just do something CCP. Make suggestions, don't just whine that this is a bad idea! Give some rationale as to why doubling Warp Disruptor/Scrambler strength, nerfing WCS, Stacking Penalties etc., wouldn't work. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me

Sara Finn	Posted - 2006.03.08 20:22:00 - [131] Originally by: Celador Nane Trust me, u can survive fine without WCS in belts, how u ask?, well... 1 = Use ur scanner 2 = Check local 3 = Use alt scouts 4 = Always stay alligned to a safespot (not a planet) 5 = Move away from the 15km warp in location 6 = Don't rat/mine in pirate infested areas 7 = Don't goto belts alone Warp core stabs are just there for ppl to lazy to do the above when belt piracy is concerned. If a pirate gets u and pinns u down in a belt, and has 2 scamblers fitted u deserve to get popped imo. I'm really glad that you told me (a miner) how to play the game. I never realized that I was being lazy and stupid by putting WCS's on my ships. I never realized that big bullies that pick on defenseless miners or other gimped ships aren't just lazy or have no balls. It was my fault all the time. I didn't realize I was begging to get my ship destroyed by keeping the economy of EvE going. Now how about some advice for you. Stop picking on defenseless ships and noobs and learn that bullying people doesn't make you a man. Now that we've told each other how to play, I think I can go back to mining in solitude and maybe you'll actually go to 0.0 and fight someone who can actually fight back.
Gonada	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:18:00 - [132] lol dear OP: since you evidentally have no clue how to play the game, and want to be lewt, may i suggest going back to WOW? probobly the dumbest post ever. :) -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Kerin Blackhand	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:41:00 - [133] Originally by: Trevedian People fitting multiple WCS should be penalized. Make a harsh stacking penalty for them... Make Warp Disruptors stronger (Or release Tech2), just do something CCP. Surely you're not serious. I mean, the fact that someone who fills their lows with WCS can't armor tank or fit most damage mods or resists isn't penalty enough? I have an idea, maybe CCP should make players that stack WCS get a poke in the eye with a sharp stick for every extra WCS they mount on their ship. How about that? The fact that WCS fit in the low slots IS their balancing factor. That Hoarder running with three WCS isn't carrying the nanos or extenders it would otherwise carry, so it's slower in low-sec and making less money than it could otherwise. The fact that his penalty doesn't directly benefit YOU as the guy trying to take him down doesn't mean he's getting a free ride (though even that's arguable since an indie without nanos isn't going to move nearly as fast as it needs to in low-sec). Same thing with combat ships with lows full of WCS. Damage mods? Resists? None, which means it should be easier for you to put his ass in a pod. I think the fact that you're complaining that it makes it harder for you to scramble him instead of talking about how much easier it is for you to hammer him because he can't fight as effectively as he could otherwise shows that you're just leaning on scrams and jammers as an I-Win button, a one-trick pony that you learned how to use to make your life as a pirate easier and now that people are going to an extreme to counter it you're upset that your easy meal ticket isn't so easy anymore. To quote Clint Eastwood, "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." If people are cramming their lows with WCS, then surely there's a way for you to beat it. The market is packed fat with all sorts of goodies. The tools are at your disposal, you just need to use them. Just because your solution involves work or thought or perhaps even some hardship on your part doesn't mean "WCS are uber". It just means you need to suck it up and play the game like everyone else. -------- Genghis Khan likes corndogs.
AnxietyAttack	Posted - 2006.03.08 21:42:00 - [134] Wow, the whining is strong in this one. I don't understand your problem, i use a 20k and a 7.5k and have a very high success rate, yeah some get away but i don't whine about it. If some dude want's to be a p###y and run away like a small girl in battle, that's fine, he has to live with being a wimp and his skill won't improve because you're not trying o adapt and learn, pretty much the same for the no' whiner's. You're saying that wcs are an i-win button or whatever, so you go and ask for an i-win scrambler with 4x the strengh of a standard stab, wow, yeah, that's balanced and intelligent. The only resonable solution to stab's from a relatively impartial view is to make stab's affect combat systems somehow, so you travel or fight, not both. If anything does change, i pray Tomb or whoever uses discretion if it is tampered with Kiss it
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.03.09 02:43:00 - [135] stop whining stabbs are fair I hate em sometimes but they are fair and balanced. Dont see the problem really at all and if it forces you to team up play with friends kill someone using stabbs and then have a great feeling of victory, then its freakin great. Hmm weird I love games were you work in a group and have fun go through tactics but I guess most of you whiners are so freakin annoying nobody wanna be friends with you so you have to solo lol. Either team up realise this game aint about solo uber pvp or go and solo gind to lvl 60 in WOW!!! .... clicky! Im a noob, bear with me :P


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