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Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:17:00 - [61] And guaranteed to have to USE it? Plus it's not a guarantee. Web and ram, baby. PS, no, chance based scrambling would be le suck. I'm all for stack-based scrambling (as previously described). Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Seto Mazzarotto	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:27:00 - [62] Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both.
Ch'tok	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:30:00 - [63] Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both. Scramblers than as well, of course. Tackle or fight, not both.
Jacinto Naysmith	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:31:00 - [64] I usually avoid these threads but its getting ridiculous. Warpcore stabs already have a penalty, your lack of thought when equipping your ships is the problem, not stabs.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Ch'tok Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both. Scramblers than as well, of course. Tackle or fight, not both. erm what?
Ante	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:54:00 - [66] Edited by: Ante on 06/03/2006 22:54:46 Originally by: Ch'tok Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto Warp Stabs need to be a high slot module, imo. Either fight or run. Don't do both. Scramblers than as well, of course. Tackle or fight, not both. Are you sure you aren't a certain somebody's alt making a sly comment about interceptors? Originally by: OrangeAfroMan It really doesnt matter if you gimp your ship by fitting WCS, what is there to gimp when you are garaunteed to live?? The one exception being if you get ganked. As it is atm WCS promote ganking. How the hell is this a good thing?
xHoodx	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:54:00 - [67] Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? Just add the penalties up and apply to the scan res, a geddon with 8 of those babies would have his scan resolution reduced to 20% and he'd have a hard time getting a lock on anything in time to do any real fighting, unless he fills all his 3 mid slots with sensor boosters which still wouldn't do all that much and he'd have no room for scramblers or anything like that. Should discourage people from using many of them on combat setups. Might gimp npcers a bit much if they like fitting lots of em, not sure how many people actually fit much more than 2 of them tho... Doesn't really make any difference to haulers and the like.
Chronus26	Posted - 2006.03.06 22:54:00 - [68] I do not like this idea. -----
Sara Finn	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:01:00 - [69] I've said it once, I'll say it again. Any major changes to the WCS (i.e., mid-slot or high-slot) hopelessly gimp the haulers and miners. You PvP'ers need to take the blinders off, take a deep relaxing breath, and think outside the little blood-covered boxes you live in.
VaderDSL	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:10:00 - [70] Edited by: VaderDSL on 06/03/2006 23:11:22 Why not simply make the WCS active, you have to activate them before you get scrambled to be able to shield your warp drive, however enabling the WCS causes normal power flow to be disrupted putting weapons offline or something to that effect. Means then people can't continue going around with the WCS simply active rather than them being passive, also means in PvP you have to actually use some skill to use them, in activating them before you get locked - granted the benefit is with the defender there in that he doesn't have to wait to get a lock. And same principle applies - you have to have as many WCS to counter the warp scramblers/disruptors. Maye have it also that the WCS means you have to reach say 90% of your top speed before you warp also? I dunno, it's open for adjustments.

Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:15:00 - [71] Originally by: Sara Finn I've said it once, I'll say it again. Any major changes to the WCS (i.e., mid-slot or high-slot) hopelessly gimp the haulers and miners. You PvP'ers need to take the blinders off, take a deep relaxing breath, and think outside the little blood-covered boxes you live in. I still say my idea was a good one - the moment you activate a warp scrambler, your stabs offline themselves. stops people pvping with stabs :)
Motec	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:16:00 - [72] I've had my fair share of game warp away once they realize they weren't going to win but never was I ignorant enough to realize that warp scramblers don't gimp my damage like wcs do. Warp scramblers also work 100% of the time if we hate on wcs its going to come back and bite tacklers in the rear. More tEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
Motec	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:16:00 - [73] I've had my fair share of game warp away once they realize they weren't going to win but never was I ignorant enough to realize that warp scramblers don't gimp my damage like wcs do. Warp scramblers also work 100% of the time if we hate on wcs its going to come back and bite tacklers in the rear. More threads about changing wcs, then a change follows suit, and Id give it two months before the forums is flooded with make scramblers a high slot and have a 'chance' to scramble. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.03.06 23:38:00 - [74] It is already a standard practice for me to use +6 points tackling. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:00:00 - [75] Edited by: j0sephine on 07/03/2006 00:01:30 "Which weapons? which ammo? Will your cap hold out for long enough while firing? Which hardeners should I fit - passive or active? (..)" Well, this is slightly diffrent issue -- that there's variety in modules of certain type that makes selection of exact config more difficult. But it doesn't really change the core, i.e. that certain types of modules are best suited for certain role. To emulate this, there could be more variety introduced for the WCS. Be it adding skills that increase their strength, or active version of WCS which costs cap to run but gives more strength. In the end though it wouldn't change the very thing you don't like -- that WCS _are_ designed to allow ships run despite being scrambled and they are best choice for this task. "Like I said, I have no problem if people fit stabs but they need their role defined, i.e. to allow safe travel, not to PVP." But they do have their role defined, it's even in their description. This role is to counter the effect of warp scramblers and that's it. How exactly is this functionality utilized is left to individual player, and it's said nowhere that one shouldn't be allowed to fit these modules as emergency "backup plan" if combat goes wrong. "Once they have it pinned down, all the geddon needs to do is let light drones on one of the targets and slap a nos on it and he will either flee or die." You might think so, but try to post this opinion in next thread about cap drainers and watch it grow 5 extra pages in less than hour -.^ "Again I'm all for people trying to avoid combat if they don't want to fight. Running of once they realise they're not going to win by fitting 7-8 stabs is what gets on my nerves." Well, then we're kind of back to square one -- i'd dare to say what you actually dislike is the fact this does allow them to get away, because they actually took into account the possibility they might be forced to run, and fit accordingly while your own setup wasn't configured to counter this... but you feel you "deserved" that kill because your ship turned out to be stronger in terms of offense/defense. Thing is, i think this conflict of opinions stems from the fact you see ships as simple balance of just that, offense and defense ... while they are actually more of balance between offense, defense, tackling _and_ counter-tackling. So, when you have a ship which hits hard and tanks well, but to do so sacrifices a lot in the area which is equally crucial if you want to secure the kill, i.e. the tackling. It's then small wonder such setup fails when facing another ship which on the other hand sacrifices a lot of offense and defense for strong anti-tackling. The problem (to me) is, rather than rethink your approach to ship configurations you're asking for the game mechanics to be changed, so the ship configurations become limited to match your (more narrow) idea of "what it's all about" i.e. just contest between who has better tank and harder hitting weapons... o.O;
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:04:00 - [76] Originally by: j0sephine The problem (to me) is, rather than rethink your approach to ship configurations you're asking for the game mechanics to be changed, so the ship configurations become limited to match your (more narrow) idea of "what it's all about" i.e. just contest between who has better tank and harder hitting weapons... o.O; no, I just want to keep a ******* geddon in place with a ship that has less than 5 spare midslots
madaluap	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:07:00 - [77] Edited by: madaluap on 07/03/2006 00:07:43 i just scrambled a rifter that was setup for pvp.. it warped tell me warpcorestabsfan is that what you want? yes? than i want roids to setoff a doomsday weapon every 10 mins _________________________________________________
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:11:00 - [78] "no, I just want to keep a ****** geddon in place with a ship that has less than 5 spare midslots "* Well, that's tough luck then i guess. I'd like to be able to armour-tank like crazy with a Scorpion or a Raven while using my mid slots for other stuff, but it's simply wrong tool for the job ^^;; A 'geddon can get pretty much immune to about any single ship if it drops enough WCS into the low slots. Just like Dominix can be ridiculously hard enemy to beat in most 1v1's ... it's just the way these ships are. Doesn't really have to mean the mechanics they utilize to achieve it are wrong on its own, and have to be changed...
Twin blade	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:11:00 - [79] Just grow up not every one want's to fight all the time if you want to fight so badly find another pirate and fight him and stop crying over people who are doing trade run's and such.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:13:00 - [80] Originally by: j0sephine Doesn't really have to mean the mechanics they utilize to achieve it are wrong on its own, and have to be changed... and that's where you and I differ :).

Yaro	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:13:00 - [81] ppl who dont like WCS pls listen, or read.... there r 2 different setups for ships: PVP and NPC... example1: Raven for solo pvp is...probably...meds ew...warp scrambler...lows sort of tank... example: Raven for ratting is meds hardeners and shield tank, lows bcu's and WCS !!!!!!....because with this setup I can only rat hunt and make isk...and not get killed by a bunch of *****s flying in a group of 10... ppl use 2 wcs because if a bunch of 10 *****s warps to a system with 10 belts...those ppl will have a chance to warp to a ss...and it doesnt mean that this raven pilot is a bad pilot...he simply makes isks to afford proper pvp !!! not fighting against a bunch of ass.....es in 10 frigs... Sincerely yours Yaro
Daos Leghki	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:34:00 - [82] To the people that want to make WCS have a stacking penalty: Consider that Armor/Shield hardeners have a stacking penalty. Now, consider that so do damage mods. Same thing with WCS, if the defensive mod doesn't stack well, neither should the offensive. It encourages group play. One guy with 4 Heatsinks does only a bit more damage than one guy with 3. Two guys, both with 2 heatsinks get more benefit out of those, and do more damage. The lesson: fly with teammates. <sarcasm> People keep on fitting these modules that take away my ability to kill them. The fight's going well, and suddenly, as I get to their armor, I almost stop doing damage to them. Please nerf hardeners </sarcasm> But seriously, use teammates. No ship should be able to do anything. Even the sniping 'Geddon can only shoot long-range and run. It can't tank, it can't scramble (not that it needs to).
Jacinto Naysmith	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:44:00 - [83] Originally by: xHoodx Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? like. Yes, yes it is. Warp core stabs already have a penalty: by equipping them you can't equip a combat oriented module. If you load your ships with stabs you can neither gank well nor tank well, the only thing you will be doing well is running.
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 00:46:00 - [84] Originally by: Jacinto Naysmith Originally by: xHoodx Someone mentioned putting a scan resolution penalty on the stabs. Would a 10% penalty per stab be too much? like. Yes, yes it is. Warp core stabs already have a penalty: by equipping them you can't equip a combat oriented module. If you load your ships with stabs you can neither gank well nor tank well, the only thing you will be doing well is running. unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight?
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:00:00 - [85] "unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight?" Well, last i checked, success in PvP involved actually being there and dealing damage to the enemy for long enough to kill their ship. "The biggest tank in the world" allows for exactly that, buys time before one needs to run, hopefully enough to dish out enough damage to kill the target as long as it stays there. Stabs on the other hand allow to run, but it kind of throws a spanner into the "need to be there and deal damage" part... -.o
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:05:00 - [86] Originally by: j0sephine "unfortunatly, you can be very successful at pvp with a full rack of stabs. who needs the biggest tank in the world when you can just warp away from any fight?" Well, last i checked, success in PvP involved actually being there and dealing damage to the enemy for long enough to kill their ship. "The biggest tank in the world" allows for exactly that, buys time before one needs to run, hopefully enough to dish out enough damage to kill the target as long as it stays there. Stabs on the other hand allow to run, but it kind of throws a spanner into the "need to be there and deal damage" part... -.o the tactics (I feel I am being optimistic by suggesting there is more than one) behind stabs and combat are to sit there and do as much damage as possible before having to warp out. of course, the only targets they can generally hope to kill are 1/2 their size, hence we're back to cheap kill syndrome, unless they fit as follows: 1 20km scram as many multispecs as you have slots for as many stabs as you have slots for as many guns as you can fit It has almost 0% chance of being blown up, and will win a hell of a lot more fights than it will have to warp out of.
Rivek	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:10:00 - [87] Don't know if this was suggested, but why not just double the range on both disruptors and scramblers. Thus, the standard disruptor would be useful out to 40k (and long range ships could actually scramble) and strength 2 scramblers would be useful out to 15k making it much easier to land a stronger scramble on someone. Boost faction and officer scrams accordingly.
Amerigo Vespucci	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:11:00 - [88] What about this idea. Totaly rethink the WCS and points in general. Instead of a WCS giving invulnerability to x amount of points, make them Increase the capacitor used to scramble by z percent Think of it as the warp core is more stable, so the scrambler has to work harder to scramble the core. As long as the scrambler module is activated, the enemy cannot warp. Using 1 scramble on an 8 wcs geddon would take an immense ammount of cap, while having 1 wcs would take enough cap that it would not be very easy to keep the scramble using a standard frigate.
Exogene	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:25:00 - [89] Originally by: Shibby DoWa if you can show me how a stilleto (the thing is designed for tackling) can tackle a fully stabbed geddon I would love to hear it. And where is it written that a stilleto has to warp scramble a geddon under any circumstance. Please be realistic. Stabs are fine and i am glad that the non-pirate community is finally stepping up to get it's voice heard. What other protection does a 1 week old character have against a 1 year old 'pro' who hunts noobs and claims he is the best WCS are fine the way they are, not all people have pvp professions and i think people should have an option to properly defend themselves. WCS does just that and does it well. If you can't scramble someone get more warp jammers/tacklers, it is that simple really, not much of a brain teaser
Shibby DoWa	Posted - 2006.03.07 01:29:00 - [90] Originally by: Exogene Originally by: Shibby DoWa if you can show me how a stilleto (the thing is designed for tackling) can tackle a fully stabbed geddon I would love to hear it. And where is it written that a stilleto has to warp scramble a geddon under any circumstance. Please be realistic. Stabs are fine and i am glad that the non-pirate community is finally stepping up to get it's voice heard. What other protection does a 1 week old character have against a 1 year old 'pro' who hunts noobs and claims he is the best WCS are fine the way they are, not all people have pvp professions and i think people should have an option to properly defend themselves. WCS does just that and does it well. If you can't scramble someone get more warp jammers/tacklers, it is that simple really, not much of a brain teaser what is that one week old noob doing in <= 0.4 which is meant to be low-security space in the first place?



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