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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.03.11 01:42:00 -
[1]
i mean, a battle ship is like 100m kg and 1m m3 and large guns are like 750kg and 20 m3. even if you have 20 guns, they'll only take .015 percent mass and .04 percent volume compared to a bs.
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Bhuknar Hhallas
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Posted - 2006.03.11 01:45:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Nimie
i mean, a battle ship is like 100m kg and 1m m3 and large guns are like 750kg and 20 m3. even if you have 20 guns, they'll only take .015 percent mass and .04 percent volume compared to a bs.
Agreed. For a game meant to portray such a large universe. I find it odd that you still can't get a sense of skill with the ships. Maybe CCP should look at Homeworld.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 01:45:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Nimie
i mean, a battle ship is like 100m kg and 1m m3 and large guns are like 750kg and 20 m3. even if you have 20 guns, they'll only take .015 percent mass and .04 percent volume compared to a bs.
Not much different from a real battleship then, eh? 
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Bhuknar Hhallas
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Posted - 2006.03.11 01:46:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Nimie
i mean, a battle ship is like 100m kg and 1m m3 and large guns are like 750kg and 20 m3. even if you have 20 guns, they'll only take .015 percent mass and .04 percent volume compared to a bs.
Not much different from a real battleship then, eh?
Actually no. Guns on battleships during WW2 were up to a third of the ships size.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 01:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Bhuknar Hhallas
Edited by: Bhuknar Hhallas on 11/03/2006 01:48:48
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Nimie
i mean, a battle ship is like 100m kg and 1m m3 and large guns are like 750kg and 20 m3. even if you have 20 guns, they'll only take .015 percent mass and .04 percent volume compared to a bs.
Not much different from a real battleship then, eh?
Actually no. Guns on battleships during WW2 were up to a third of the ships size. To put it in perspective the guns on the battleships of EVE, look like 9MM Glocks placed around the hull. 
A third of the ship's size? 
Not really.
P.S. The largest battleship gun in EVE is the 1400mm artillery piece. That's hardly a meter wide. A battleship in EVE is over 1km long.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Bhuknar Hhallas
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Posted - 2006.03.11 01:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Bhuknar Hhallas
Edited by: Bhuknar Hhallas on 11/03/2006 01:48:48
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Nimie
i mean, a battle ship is like 100m kg and 1m m3 and large guns are like 750kg and 20 m3. even if you have 20 guns, they'll only take .015 percent mass and .04 percent volume compared to a bs.
Not much different from a real battleship then, eh?
Actually no. Guns on battleships during WW2 were up to a third of the ships size. To put it in perspective the guns on the battleships of EVE, look like 9MM Glocks placed around the hull.
A third of the ship's size?
Not really.
P.S. The largest battleship gun in EVE is the 1400mm artillery piece. That's hardly a meter wide. A battleship in EVE is over 1km long.
I said UP too. Look at the proposed design that the Japanese and Germans were hoping to put into the war.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:01:00 -
[7]
Edited by: j0sephine on 11/03/2006 02:01:12
"P.S. The largest battleship gun in EVE is the 1400mm artillery piece. That's hardly a meter wide. A battleship in EVE is over 1km long."
Well, running quick Google search -- the world war II battleship guns were typically ~381-406 mm artilleries. That on ships up to ~250 m in length. So, you could resonably expect at least the 1400 mm turrets to be quite a bit bigger than they're now, relatively to the EVE ship sizes. (these turrets were reported to weight "125 tons each turret weights , 650 tons complete" so also quite a bit more)
Besides it's not about schmechnicalities, but about looking cool. Dreadnaughts and their huge guns look awesome. WW2 battleships with their guns are like them, too. Regular cruisers and battleships in EVE.... meh. Pea shooters :/
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Alexis DeTocqueville
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:08:00 -
[8]
Battleship guns look huge to me...fly up to one in a frigate sometime.
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:18:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Diana Merris on 11/03/2006 02:20:52
Battleship guns were massive.
US 16 inch guns
Turret weight was 1700 tons for a 3 gun turret. Each gun was ~1% of the ships mass.
On a 100 million kg EVE battleship that would be 1,000,000 kg each.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:20:00 -
[10]
Edited by: j0sephine on 11/03/2006 02:19:59
"Battleship guns look huge to me...fly up to one in a frigate sometime."
They are pretty big, yes (about 20-30 m i.e. half the size of typical frigate) ... but given the gun calibre increase, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to expect them to be half the size of say, Vexor or similar low end cruiser ^^;
in similar manner the main cruiser guns could also use bit of size increase -- EVE cruisers are the size of WW2 battleships, and cruiser guns fall somewhere in the middle between main and secondary WW2 battleship turrets o.O;
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:21:00 -
[11]
The weight on EVE items is generally wrong. Along with the volume.
On the other hand, bigger guns could not hurt.
What the heck is wrong with bigger? 
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:23:00 -
[12]
Bigger is better :s
(well, except when it's damsel in distress. Poor girl got enough mocking while she was weighting 200 kg...
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:43:00 -
[13]
Definitely need bigger guns on the regular ships.
And the Dreadnaughts should have even bigger guns then they already have...they're BASICALLY mobile artillery pieces, like the Paris Gun.
--------
Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk
[04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
[07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Frezik
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:43:00 -
[14]
In terms of game mechanics, the small weight of guns compared to real-world guns is dictated by a need to keep the ship's fitted stats within a usable range.
OTOH, one can look at another set of stats and wonder at how big the guns are:
1400mm: Volkswagen
2500mm: semi trailer (but it's 6x2500mm, so 6 semi trailers)
3500mm: small house (it's a quad, so 4 small houses)
The kinetic energy alone is good enough reason to keep us from getting too close to inhabited planets.
----
"Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth |
FluffySquirrel
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:53:00 -
[15]
Never mind the real world physics... it -would- be a lot cooler looking if the guns were bigger.. .. reason enough for me ^^
Fluffy
cause sometimes everyone needs a fluffy squirrel to cuddle...
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AvanCade
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Posted - 2006.03.11 02:59:00 -
[16]
Who cares about size, i just love the 1400mm tech 2 dmg output...
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:01:00 -
[17]
Edited by: j0sephine on 11/03/2006 03:04:40
Hee, it's only slightly related, but cool enough to be linked here...
ever wondered how large these 800 mm autocannon shells are -.o
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Morgana Janan
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:07:00 -
[18]
Well, something to remember: those small 125mm railguns on your Incursus are the same size as the cannons on an M1A1 main battle tank. A 150mm cannon is considered heavy artillery in ground warfare on Earth. So don't be too quick to bash the sizes. You're firing off tank cannons at people.
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Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: j0sephine
Hee, it's only slightly related, but cool enough to be linked here...
ever wondered how large these 800 mm autocannon shells are -.o
Is that the Imperial War Museum? It looks quite familiar.
Originally by: Morgana Janan
Well, something to remember: those small 125mm railguns on your Incursus are the same size as the cannons on an M1A1 main battle tank. A 150mm cannon is considered heavy artillery in ground warfare on Earth. So don't be too quick to bash the sizes. You're firing off tank cannons at people.
The real complaint isn't the size of the guns, it's how big they LOOK on the ships.
--------
Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk
[04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
[07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:26:00 -
[20]
i kinda have to agree here, i did a look at on a Battleship once and wasnt impressed by the guns. i mean when an Iowa Class sailed into a harbor you knew it ment business, you could clearly see its 16in guns even for how massive the ship was.
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Alexis DeTocqueville
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: j0sephine
in similar manner the main cruiser guns could also use bit of size increase -- EVE cruisers are the size of WW2 battleships, and cruiser guns fall somewhere in the middle between main and secondary WW2 battleship turrets o.O;
Apples and Oranges. You're comparing a spaceship's tonnage to a watercraft?
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Pepperami
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:37:00 -
[22]
Large guns? I'm still upset CCP nerfed this 
[Art of War][- V -] |
Nikolai Nuvolari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:38:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Nikolai Nuvolari on 11/03/2006 03:39:01
Originally by: Pepperami
Large guns? I'm still upset CCP nerfed this
LMAO I remember that, it was GREAT!
Gotta love the Volkwagen Launchers.
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Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk
[04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
[07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Zavernus Hamarabi
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Posted - 2006.03.11 04:29:00 -
[24]
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7_Missouri_projectiles_flight.jpg
^^^ What the firing graphics *should* be like in eve 
Furthermore, /signed for MUCH larger looking guns in eve
...
And honest to god missile launchers
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.11 04:30:00 -
[25]
"Apples and Oranges. You're comparing a spaceship's tonnage to a watercraft?"
Not tonnage, physical size. Cute miniaturization aside, a weapon with calibre greater than what we already have is naturally expected to be to similar extent bigger.
Something like this, i guess.
(well if nothing else makes it easier to tell what weapons they have equipped... :s
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Frezik
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Posted - 2006.03.11 04:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Morgana Janan
Well, something to remember: those small 125mm railguns on your Incursus are the same size as the cannons on an M1A1 main battle tank. A 150mm cannon is considered heavy artillery in ground warfare on Earth. So don't be too quick to bash the sizes. You're firing off tank cannons at people.
Railguns are a different class altogether. They can get much higher muzzle velocities with a smaller caliber shot (notice that in Eve, rails have a smaller caliber for the same class compared to projectiles). So that 125mm rail is actually quite a bit nastier than the 150mm cannon on the M1A1.
----
"Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth |
Sarafi
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Posted - 2006.03.11 05:07:00 -
[27]
I want missle turrets.
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Lilith Kara
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Posted - 2006.03.11 05:17:00 -
[28]
Everything depends on what the shell is supposed to do. The reasons for using big 16" guns on naval ships may be immaterial in space where you can cause massive depressurization with a 50 caliber round, and where the vacuum of space will intensify the effect of a shell exploding in a pressurized hull. Also, when you factor in railguns, which count on velocity to pack the punch, again, the size of the round is a lesser concern.
I think it's folly to assume that space combat will require the same armaments as modern naval combat does.
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Torze
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Posted - 2006.03.11 05:18:00 -
[29]
I'm confused about the argument of weight. In space, there is no weight, only mass. Weight is the gravitational measurement of mass.
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Kedammre
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Posted - 2006.03.11 05:31:00 -
[30]
I'm confused as to why somebody with (apparently) a basic understanding of the terms: mass and weight, is confused by others using those same words in each others' places.
I'll start by saying I'm pretty sure it was a technical decision, several reasons - weapon models were serious hardware drains at launch and still are now, so having large ones meant compromising the look of ships when they're turned off. Interoperability between models and hardpoints would be another, what happens to the massive space left for a gun when the slot is unused or has a drone control thing in it? Ships lose individuality as identical gun models dominate their silhouettes. etc.
That aside though, I've always wanted the weapon models to be more extreme and at least look like they were taking more advantage of the load bearing frame a BS gave. After all, battleships exist to position their heavy guns, so why does a Mega need to be hundreds if not thousands of times the volume and mass of all its weapon systems put together?
Been meaing to photoshop a few ships with big guns as a proof of concept, might have to get on with that.
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-Ked |
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