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Akkarin Pagan
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:20:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made.
Which is why my Incursus was shot at by a Megathron in a 0.4 system, cos those 3000 anti matter small charges cost sooooo much isk!
TBH I have lost valuable cargos to pirates and yeah it's annoying, but is also part of the game. to paraphrase; don't carry what you can't afford to lose
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Sonlatur
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:47:00 -
[32]
Yeah, the newbie baiting seems to be quite common now. I've seen it the last two days. People setting up named "Free for newbs" or whatever in front of the newbie starting station and then blowing up those guys (who are doing their tutorial and probably its the first time for them in space). Now i think that sheds a very bad light on the community and a warning box about the flagging doesnt change it - these newb traps shouldnt be set in the first place. I think it would well be in CCP's interest to get rid of those characters quickly and i wouldnt be sad about it.
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Asane
Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made.
...You sure haven't been in empirespace for a long long time..
I think he is pointing out a weakness of terminology.
He is right, you are just assuming he is saying there are no psycho's in Eve, and that isn't how I read it.
Pirate <> Psycho
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Adjodlo
Originally by: EVIL SOULS Well, thats what I thought also but the GM decided different. I am not going to say the GM was wrong in the situation. People are warned before they steal, but I guess killing noobs for it is a no no.
The GM was wrong in this situation.
Theres nothing wrong with killing people however you deem necessary unless you are exploiting a game mechanic. Killing someone for stealing from you is NOT an exploit, if it was, the theif wouldnt flag and stealing would be alot easier.
You dont know the circumstances.
He may have been one of those people who go to the newbie starter system dropping cans saying "Welcome Newbies! Here's some free gifts!" and then ganking them when they take from the can.
Regardless of the letter of the law, if I were a GM I'd ban you for that.
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Constantine Arcanum
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:27:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Pizi xploiting noobs with cans around starter stations named "FREE NOOB STUFF" is not fun there are so many people playing in this game calling themselfs pirates or pvpers butare only griefers =)
So true... you're only a PvPer if that's what it is. Player versus Player.
This seems a case of w*nker versus Player ----------------------------------------------- Guys, we win some and we lose some, but please, can we win this one? THIS SIG R UNHACKABLE
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:59:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 16/03/2006 12:00:35 In general, something can really never be griefing unless it is personal. The moment you set out to target one single person not for any underlying reason other then a personal conflict, it *can* become griefing.
So, indescriminate killing that doesn't break the rules is not an exploit and is not griefing unless a GM tells you to stop and you don't.
edit: killing noobs with the can flagging trick would be an exploit, not griefing in Eve context. But definately an exploit since it is abusing a game mechanic in a manner not intended. At least, if the GM says so it is.
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Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:00:00 -
[37]
Hmm..
As a quick aside note on the can issue, it would be really cool if CCP would add a feature where you can remounce your ownership of cans and truly give them away if you want to.
That way people actually would be able to leave cans of crap around for newbies that are safe to collect from. God knows I never bother picking up loot and someone might make use of it if it wasn't for all this can flagging.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:40:00 -
[38]
Killing everyone isn't piracy, that's massmurder as pointed out already, a real pirate would have some brains to his head and work the angles of his trade to secure himself deals from certain people and avoid others for the sake of selfpreservation.
Seeking out targets when they're most likely to carry something would be a good first start. Many wannabe pirates shoot people upon exiting into 0.0 whilst probably only carrying supplies to hunt instead of focusing on the people going back in, most likely carrying the best loot they could find.
Remind me about The Maze.
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:55:00 -
[39]
Sighs...
Always remember that carebears are people with +5.0 secs or -10.0 secs. If you dont like about it, do something by killing them back.
In EvE, you must kill or be killed.
HTH. ----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Pallanx
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:57:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Fuujin I never quite understood the pleasure recieved from sitting in some n00b system and tricking players for kills.
No? Well, you can post their names on the forum here in your sig telling the world how 'great' a guy u are. Thats satisfaction for some people I guess..
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Gerbil Intaki
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Posted - 2006.03.16 13:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned.
how is that any differnt from ore theifs using a cheap frigate to steal ore and jet their own can to pick up later or with an alt ? worse stealing ore jetting it and waiting for someone to comeback and try and steal "their" ore back and killing them for it ?
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Gerbil Intaki
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Posted - 2006.03.16 13:03:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made.
theres always a profit to be made some are just worth more than others.
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Marcus Aurelius
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Posted - 2006.03.16 13:06:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Gerbil Intaki
Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned.
how is that any differnt from ore theifs using a cheap frigate to steal ore and jet their own can to pick up later or with an alt ? worse stealing ore jetting it and waiting for someone to comeback and try and steal "their" ore back and killing them for it ?
The victim is not a newb.
As long as that is true, everything goes more or less. Only new players deserve protection from their lack of experience.
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Wendat Huron
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Posted - 2006.03.16 13:07:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Gerbil Intaki
Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made.
theres always a profit to be made some are just worth more than others.
I take it the security hits and their drawbacks aren't severe enough if this is true.
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Deacan Wildfire
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Posted - 2006.03.16 13:27:00 -
[45]
The thing about Eve, and very few other MMOs, is that the players themselves have the power to deal with "griefers" without having to cry to a GM. If someone griefs you in, say, WoW or EQ2, then there's nothing you can do but petition due to the restrictions on player interaction.
This is EVE - people need to start looking to other players for help before looking to the GMs. And I hope CCP understands this. Griefers don't need to be banned, they just need to be put to justice by the players.
plaguing MMORPGs since 1997 |
Wendat Huron
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Posted - 2006.03.16 13:34:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Deacan Wildfire The thing about Eve, and very few other MMOs, is that the players themselves have the power to deal with "griefers" without having to cry to a GM. If someone griefs you in, say, WoW or EQ2, then there's nothing you can do but petition due to the restrictions on player interaction.
This is EVE - people need to start looking to other players for help before looking to the GMs. And I hope CCP understands this. Griefers don't need to be banned, they just need to be put to justice by the players.
That's all fine and dandy in a perfect world, unless the biggest griefers stick together and form an alliance.
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Deacan Wildfire
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:35:00 -
[47]
Even then, you just have one alliance which is essentially fighting the whole shard. They might last a while, but eventually they would just have too many enemies and be overwhelemed. Or failing that, their very nature would cause so many internal issues that they'd just fall apart (most griefers are essentially just opportunists, after all)
plaguing MMORPGs since 1997 |
Asnar
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:51:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Deacan Wildfire Even then, you just have one alliance which is essentially fighting the whole shard. They might last a while, but eventually they would just have too many enemies and be overwhelemed. Or failing that, their very nature would cause so many internal issues that they'd just fall apart (most griefers are essentially just opportunists, after all)
I think he already had a alliance in mind. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area |
branodn lee
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Posted - 2006.03.16 16:24:00 -
[49]
Edited by: branodn lee on 16/03/2006 16:26:25 Edited by: branodn lee on 16/03/2006 16:25:32 Edited by: branodn lee on 16/03/2006 16:24:44 WOW WOW i really wasnt thinking this was such a hot topic but wow was i wrong. all the feedback is great on this topic and it helps all those who do love to pvp like myslef. im now glad i got this topic going and hope we the people of eve still keep chating peacfuly about it to try to understand what grief tactics really are and how many ways there is a thin line between just being a psycho kill or gate sniper and a grief killer.
well lets hope we get a uper managment to post in here or something since we really need them to say for sure whats right and whats wrong or we will have rouge gms doing what ever they want. im not saying there is rouge gms but with this topic and how its gone it seems that some think there is and thats not good for eve. i love this game to much to see a few rouge gms if there are any make players leave this game since they are getting banned for just killing players within the game rules.
agin thank you for all the post my fellow eve players i am really happy with all the feedback and keep it comeing please.
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MrTripps
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Posted - 2006.03.16 16:53:00 -
[50]
Killing nubes is kinda a-holeish, but it teaches them a good lesson.
I'll also point out that as a fairly new player I often took people's rat turds and claimed nube when I got caught (which was rare). "Gee, sorry. I thought it was my can." It was profitable, but a little harder to pull off since they changed the can colors. "Ummmm, sorry. I'm color blind" doesn't go over well.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.03.16 17:08:00 -
[51]
EVE is far looser about 'griefing' than any other game, simply because it's competitive. If someone kills me, blows my ship and pods me, that's normal competition, and I'll be more careful next time. And maybe try and get my own back.
However, abusing the fact that newbies don't understand the game as well, to get 'cheap' kills, I would consider griefing. As would I 'come gang with me to mission' and bombing them into a BS spawn, or ... a whole host of other things designed solely to exert your superiority over someone who'd not been playing very long.
And yes, I do include dropping cans as bait and ganking thieves. It's one thing when it's someone who should know better. It's another entirely when someone who is _genuinely_ inexperienced gets blown away by some moron in a BS who thinks it's funny. -- We are recruiting
We sell carriers. |
Harfang Neige
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:11:00 -
[52]
Consider this semi-hypothetical situation: A player with 2 years of SP, brings his Battleship to a .4 sec dead end system and proceeds to kill players with 3 months of SP's in maybe a cruiser (if not a frigate). Is that real PvP? When asked why they are doing this they reply that they love the killing - and admit they do not want to face the risk involved in dealing with someone who has any chance at all to kill them in return.
It makes me think of some guy with a chip on his shoulder, who works out everyday, but is afraid to start a bar fight, so goes to a schoolyard and kicks little kids in the head. Not very nice. From what I can see, the in-game legal system is really not equipped to handle this sort of situation, the young players likely cannot afford to put a big enough bounty on the person's head to make them a juicy target, the sec hits don't matter as they guy can then go do the same thing to rats and nullify any negative standings for the kill. Going back to the schoolyard analogy, if every kid in the shoolyard rushed the guy, he would be toast - but in Eve some of the yards are kinda quiet.
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Arkanor
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:54:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Arkanor on 16/03/2006 21:54:49 Low sec is dangerous, ppl get killed, it happens. I just hate when it happens in empire.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2006.03.17 07:52:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Asane Would be nice to be informed about those rules.. same with the whole concord deal.. Not that I'm ever gonna try tanking one, but getting banned for it? And getting banned for using gamemechanics?
Dev/CRC, someone, could you make a list of the nono's for us so we don't have to risk banning at all times?
Do you remember that ugly accident where a GM changed the name of 4C? The actions of GMs are not the actions of devs by default. And even then a ban is something that can be questioned in curt in a lot countries even if the terms of use or license agreement back it. (we have some really nasty laws here in germany).
The actions of a GM is not right by default. As we have learned in the past two GMs can decide different. We still don't know for sure if jet can tricking is a banable act or not.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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gfldex
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus Killing everyone isn't piracy, that's massmurder as pointed out already, a real pirate would have some brains to his head and work the angles of his trade to secure himself deals from certain people and avoid others for the sake of selfpreservation.
We had and still have pirates on the seven seas. They come to a ship, kill anybody or sell them as slaves (the latter is not happening luckyly), ransoms happened but where rare. To make that clear: In nearly any case of piracy anybody aboard gets killed. That's what happens even in modern times. The ship is repainted and sold. The goods get taken and are sold too. If both is not an option the ship is sunk.
Pirates kill anybody mostly because that way there are no witnesses even if there is no good of value aboard.
-- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill|lost my ship|gank|gate camp|Verone/;'
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Herko Kerghans
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:37:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Harfang Neige ...brings his Battleship to a .4 sec dead end system...
Whenever you talk about low-sec or 0.0 and feel like throwing in a real life comparison, bear this in mind:
Low-sec and 0.0. Are. NOT. The. Schoolyard.
(Or sandbox, or whaterver.)
The guy in the BS can be a bully, buy if he is doing his killing in low sec, then it is the lil' kid that left the schoolyard/sandbox and, after his mother/father/legal guardian told him not to go to the dark alley where bully losers hang out, still goes to said dark alley and gets his nose broken.
End of it.
We can discuss the validity of the bully-in-a-sandbox argument when talking about high-sec (I, for one, think it does applie, and think that at least some areas of high-sec, say for example 1.0 and 0.9, should be 'higher-sec' for the very rookie players to hang around), but when you are in low-sec: you clicked the CONCORD box, you are there because you want to, you should have known better.
-
Barriers - an EVE novel - Chapter #4 released |
Corp Scammer
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Posted - 2006.03.17 08:59:00 -
[57]
mmm gives me an idea - off to sit in front of newbie station shooting silly noobs
CCP: requested feature please - quite simple really.
For CEOs, days since last login details on all members in their Corp. this will help manage inactives and those that dont log in can be removed. |
Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.17 09:12:00 -
[58]
Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned.
If it happened in a starter system I would tend to agree.
No matter how much you are allowed to get away with in Eve in general, never push your luck in a starter system.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Kryss Darkdust
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Posted - 2006.03.17 10:08:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Kryss Darkdust on 17/03/2006 10:09:52
Originally by: EVIL SOULS Well, thats what I thought also but the GM decided different. I am not going to say the GM was wrong in the situation. People are warned before they steal, but I guess killing noobs for it is a no no.
Keep in mind that GM's are freeform. They are basically trusted to ensure the vision and rules of the game are enforced. That doesn't mean they do their job right everytime, sometimes you have to imagine they make judgement calls that might not adhere to the devs vision. I can assure you that this is not griefing, in fact this very question was asked and asnwered by the Devs not so long ago and they made it very clear that stealing containers is an act of piracy and you can expect retribution, its the sole purpose of the aggression counter.
I imagine your not telling us the whole story here. A GM will rarely get involved unless their is a exploit used or the grief tactic exploits players completetly unprepared to deal with it. If you were doing this in a Noob zone, I can see how they may warn you for that.
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Sun Ra
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Posted - 2006.03.17 14:56:00 -
[60]
*snip* - Laqum
Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas' |
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