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branodn lee	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:14:00 - [1] i am a pirate and all i do when i log in is kill as many people as possable. is this grief tactics. i dont think so but since i have seen this topic talked about more and more i need to ask. what do you the people of eve and the gms or devs think and how do you know when you are a grief tactic person instead of a kill everyone pirate.
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:17:00 - [2] As a PvP'er, I don't believe that griefing is anything more than exploiting some obviously bugged game mechanic to kill people. If you kill people by the game rules, it's not griefing
EVIL SOULS	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:20:00 - [3] My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned.
GAC	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:23:00 - [4] the grief tactic thats talked about a lot isnt what you would call normal pirating, it is a problem with being able to make an alt and within a couple of days you can load out a kestral and go rip haulers off in empire and just log out and log back in with another alt pick up xxx amount of cargo from the hauler, sell and repeat. the tactic is a bit of a gray area but its not doing anything illegal as such, just anyone who does it and gets there jollys from it claiming to be the big ole pirate maybe should try it with there main instead of a throw away alt.
branodn lee	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:24:00 - [5] well i just do your sniping and your close range planet and belt type killing.
GAC	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:25:00 - [6] Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned. hmm stealing our of cans when you get a warning about doing it meens the person who plassed the can is griefing !? odd one as when you try to tack from somone elses can you get a big ole warning in the middle of your screen about stealling. now if you told people to take stuff then attacked them yeah your griefing and setting em up for a spanking.
EVIL SOULS	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:28:00 - [7] Well, thats what I thought also but the GM decided different. I am not going to say the GM was wrong in the situation. People are warned before they steal, but I guess killing noobs for it is a no no.
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:37:00 - [8] Edited by: Ephemeron on 16/03/2006 06:38:37 Stealing loot from your ejected can and getting killed for it is by no means an exploit. The carebears have asked for this feature, CCP have implemented it. It's not a result of some unforseen game feature. If you get banned for killing people who take your stuff, you need to petition the GM. I think many lower level GMs hardly ever play the game and don't fully understand what's a game feature and what's a bug. If higher ups still decide that it is an exploit, well then what does it say about their integrity? they purposefully implemented an exploit, makes no sense
SUPER J0SH	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:40:00 - [9] Ok leaving a $100 bill on the sidewalk then standing aside, waiting for someone to pick it up, then beating them to death with a crowbar while yelling 'STOP THIEF!' is bad. I think most people would agree.
Da Death	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:41:00 - [10] sure no expploit, but ccp not wants to see players leave eve coz of 'bad playing experience' Selling: Absolution - Curse - Gleam S - BPC's - check my bio

Da Death	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:42:00 - [11] Originally by: SUPER J0SH Ok leaving a $100 bill on the sidewalk then standing aside, waiting for someone to pick it up, then beating them to death with a crowbar while yelling 'STOP THIEF!' is bad. I think most people would agree. u missed that they getting a WARNING! Selling: Absolution - Curse - Gleam S - BPC's - check my bio
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:43:00 - [12] I think the line is this. is the action in question, offensive against the CHARACTER or the PLAYER. and don't give any of this "its just a game, I can't do anything offensive against the other person, they are there willingly" nonsense. thats bull**** and you know it. these games are not meaningless toys, they are persistent state worlds. so think about it... if an action is entirely destructive, and the only thing it does is offend the other person(the person thats behind the "victim" character) then its greifing. a distinction would be ore stealing, (could be argued as a form of piracy... if you really wanted to, since you can shoot back if someone steals from you) vs transferring ore into a different can and simply blowing it up. if your not legitimately at war with the other person (thus, legitimately hindering an enemy's wartime production, and I mean legitimately at war, as in, theres some sensical reason that your at war, rather than simply wanting to blow up people) then thats greifing. you gain nothing. you are taking from the other PERSON without any point. at least thats the line for my own distinction. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Adjodlo	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:43:00 - [13] Originally by: EVIL SOULS Well, thats what I thought also but the GM decided different. I am not going to say the GM was wrong in the situation. People are warned before they steal, but I guess killing noobs for it is a no no. The GM was wrong in this situation. Theres nothing wrong with killing people however you deem necessary unless you are exploiting a game mechanic. Killing someone for stealing from you is NOT an exploit, if it was, the theif wouldnt flag and stealing would be alot easier.
EVIL SOULS	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:47:00 - [14] Edited by: EVIL SOULS on 16/03/2006 06:55:06 This is the responce that I recieved from a GM after I was banned. It is edit in a part to hide name. ***** Sorry just read part of forum rules and am not allowed to post email. **** I wont be in 1.0 sec for a long time
branodn lee	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:57:00 - [15] thank you for the information and i hope i dont get warned or banned for sniping anyone that comes to low sec and all. well i say thank you for all the fast responses but is there a dev or anyone that could respond that would be able to say for sure.
Da Death	Posted - 2006.03.16 06:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Kel Shek I think the line is this. is the action in question, offensive against the CHARACTER or the PLAYER. and don't give any of this "its just a game, I can't do anything offensive against the other person, they are there willingly" nonsense. thats bull**** and you know it. these games are not meaningless toys, they are persistent state worlds. so think about it... if an action is entirely destructive, and the only thing it does is offend the other person(the person thats behind the "victim" character) then its greifing. a distinction would be ore stealing, (could be argued as a form of piracy... if you really wanted to, since you can shoot back if someone steals from you) vs transferring ore into a different can and simply blowing it up. if your not legitimately at war with the other person (thus, legitimately hindering an enemy's wartime production, and I mean legitimately at war, as in, theres some sensical reason that your at war, rather than simply wanting to blow up people) then thats greifing. you gain nothing. you are taking from the other PERSON without any point. at least thats the line for my own distinction. so pirates should get banned? lol Selling: Absolution - Curse - Gleam S - BPC's - check my bio
GAC	Posted - 2006.03.16 07:00:00 - [17] low sec space has always been and will hopfully stay a free for all. thats what its there for, a low security area where you in danger all the time.
Pizi	Posted - 2006.03.16 07:01:00 - [18] xploiting noobs with cans around starter stations named "FREE NOOB STUFF" is not fun there are so many people playing in this game calling themselfs pirates or pvpers butare only griefers =)
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.03.16 07:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Pizi xploiting noobs with cans around starter stations named "FREE NOOB STUFF" is not fun there are so many people playing in this game calling themselfs pirates or pvpers butare only griefers =) Using game features that have been well thought out and implemented by game developer is no more griefing than choosing queen piece in chess when your pawn reaches the end of the board.
Pizi	Posted - 2006.03.16 07:23:00 - [20] dont think its soo "well thought out", thats why they flagged em red first imo

Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.03.16 07:55:00 - [21] Can flagging was discussed months before it was finally implemented. All possible scenarios about using cans to bait noobs have been outlined repeatedly. Unless devs were blind to the forums, they couldn't escape thinking about the issue. There's no excuse, no suprise. This can flagging feature is exactly as devs wanted, thus not an exploit.
Pizi	Posted - 2006.03.16 08:11:00 - [22] well we can discus it for hours .. read this quote, looks like CCP thinks otherwise Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned.
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.16 08:19:00 - [23] Would be nice to be informed about those rules.. same with the whole concord deal.. Not that I'm ever gonna try tanking one, but getting banned for it? And getting banned for using gamemechanics? Dev/CRC, someone, could you make a list of the nono's for us so we don't have to risk banning at all times?
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.03.16 08:23:00 - [24] >>"so pirates should get banned? lol" ... I guess I wasn't clear here, let me try explaining what I mean a little simpler. piracy for the sake of piracy is part of the game. blowing people up and being unpleasant in the whole "stealing their stuff forcibly" thing. is part of the game. bullying, being destructive with NO point, for NO reason, against someone who has NO chance, is not piracy, its being an **hole. if the only reason AT ALL* of "why" is "because I'm an ***hole." then yes, those people should be banned. if the reason is "because I claim this space and you don't have my permission to be here" or "because your a dirty slaver" or "because your a hippie gallente" or 'because I want your stuff" those are all part of the game. but when its one PLAYER assaulting another through the game, with NO benefit within the game... that SHOULD be banned. taking advantage of peoples ignorance and lack of understanding, when theres no reason they would know better, is just not acceptable behavior. Ore Stealing, (as in,... actually stealing it) = not greifing. taking ore, putting it in your own can, then blowing it up,(without a chance for them to react or shoot you or anything) = greifing. the system is to allow people to defend themselves from theives... not meant to allow people to trick noobs into getting blown up. that is abusing the dynamic, and abusing the new players. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Fuujin	Posted - 2006.03.16 08:31:00 - [25] I never quite understood the pleasure recieved from sitting in some n00b system and tricking players for kills. _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Akkarin Pagan	Posted - 2006.03.16 08:40:00 - [26] Edited by: Akkarin Pagan on 16/03/2006 08:43:51 Edited by: Akkarin Pagan on 16/03/2006 08:43:17 Ok, this may be slightly off topic but... Why would you want to set a trap to kill a noob you never met? It seems a bit **holeish (british spelling). Shortly after I started playing, rmr was released. I leave a station and right at the undock point there is a can, 3 bs 2 cruisers hanging in space around the station exit. I can understand piracy, and admittedly I may get ** off when killed by one, but it is a known and recognised game mechanic and valid career path, and I'm sure pirates ocasionally get a good fight out of it too (not from me unfortunately but hey). But to place a can with the express intent of catching out someone new to the game. There is no point, it's not like they're hauling around t2 goodies, or bpos. They can't even defend themselves from it if caught out! That's just wrong, and I agree with CCP, suspend the b****s!
Jenny Longshanks	Posted - 2006.03.16 08:46:00 - [27] Originally by: Fuujin I never quite understood the pleasure recieved from sitting in some n00b system and tricking players for kills. Ask those losers of TunDraGon, MAFIA, S******dly etc etc who gatecamp those 0.4 systems like Amamake, Rancer, Tannolen etc with sniper ships to blow up everything that doesn't have insta's It boggles me what fun can be get from that
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2006.03.16 09:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Jenny Longshanks Ask those losers of TunDraGon, MAFIA, S******dly (<= S n i g g e r d l y, stupid filter:() etc etc who gatecamp those 0.4 systems like Amamake, Rancer, Tannolen etc with sniper ships to blow up everything that doesn't have insta's It boggles me what fun can be get from that It's the pirate way of mining. Is dull and pays well (afaik anyway). A dirty job - Released 2006.01.02
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.16 09:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Ras Blumin It's the pirate way of mining. Is dull and pays well (afaik anyway). QFT TBH
Asane	Posted - 2006.03.16 09:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made. ...You sure haven't been in empirespace for a long long time..

Akkarin Pagan	Posted - 2006.03.16 10:20:00 - [31] Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made. Which is why my Incursus was shot at by a Megathron in a 0.4 system, cos those 3000 anti matter small charges cost sooooo much isk! TBH I have lost valuable cargos to pirates and yeah it's annoying, but is also part of the game. to paraphrase; don't carry what you can't afford to lose
Sonlatur	Posted - 2006.03.16 10:47:00 - [32] Yeah, the newbie baiting seems to be quite common now. I've seen it the last two days. People setting up named "Free for newbs" or whatever in front of the newbie starting station and then blowing up those guys (who are doing their tutorial and probably its the first time for them in space). Now i think that sheds a very bad light on the community and a warning box about the flagging doesnt change it - these newb traps shouldnt be set in the first place. I think it would well be in CCP's interest to get rid of those characters quickly and i wouldnt be sad about it.
Avon	Posted - 2006.03.16 10:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Asane Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made. ...You sure haven't been in empirespace for a long long time.. I think he is pointing out a weakness of terminology. He is right, you are just assuming he is saying there are no psycho's in Eve, and that isn't how I read it. Pirate <> Psycho The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.03.16 10:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Adjodlo Originally by: EVIL SOULS Well, thats what I thought also but the GM decided different. I am not going to say the GM was wrong in the situation. People are warned before they steal, but I guess killing noobs for it is a no no. The GM was wrong in this situation. Theres nothing wrong with killing people however you deem necessary unless you are exploiting a game mechanic. Killing someone for stealing from you is NOT an exploit, if it was, the theif wouldnt flag and stealing would be alot easier. You dont know the circumstances. He may have been one of those people who go to the newbie starter system dropping cans saying "Welcome Newbies! Here's some free gifts!" and then ganking them when they take from the can. Regardless of the letter of the law, if I were a GM I'd ban you for that.
Constantine Arcanum	Posted - 2006.03.16 11:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Pizi xploiting noobs with cans around starter stations named "FREE NOOB STUFF" is not fun there are so many people playing in this game calling themselfs pirates or pvpers butare only griefers =) So true... you're only a PvPer if that's what it is. Player versus Player. This seems a case of wnker versus Player -----------------------------------------------* Guys, we win some and we lose some, but please, can we win this one? THIS SIG R UNHACKABLE
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2006.03.16 11:59:00 - [36] Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 16/03/2006 12:00:35 In general, something can really never be griefing unless it is personal. The moment you set out to target one single person not for any underlying reason other then a personal conflict, it can become griefing. So, indescriminate killing that doesn't break the rules is not an exploit and is not griefing unless a GM tells you to stop and you don't. edit: killing noobs with the can flagging trick would be an exploit, not griefing in Eve context. But definately an exploit since it is abusing a game mechanic in a manner not intended. At least, if the GM says so it is.
Tommy TenKreds	Posted - 2006.03.16 12:00:00 - [37] Hmm.. As a quick aside note on the can issue, it would be really cool if CCP would add a feature where you can remounce your ownership of cans and truly give them away if you want to. That way people actually would be able to leave cans of crap around for newbies that are safe to collect from. God knows I never bother picking up loot and someone might make use of it if it wasn't for all this can flagging.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2006.03.16 12:40:00 - [38] Killing everyone isn't piracy, that's massmurder as pointed out already, a real pirate would have some brains to his head and work the angles of his trade to secure himself deals from certain people and avoid others for the sake of selfpreservation. Seeking out targets when they're most likely to carry something would be a good first start. Many wannabe pirates shoot people upon exiting into 0.0 whilst probably only carrying supplies to hunt instead of focusing on the people going back in, most likely carrying the best loot they could find. Remind me about The Maze. I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.03.16 12:55:00 - [39] Sighs... Always remember that carebears are people with +5.0 secs or -10.0 secs. If you dont like about it, do something by killing them back. In EvE, you must kill or be killed. HTH. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Pallanx	Posted - 2006.03.16 12:57:00 - [40] Originally by: Fuujin I never quite understood the pleasure recieved from sitting in some n00b system and tricking players for kills. No? Well, you can post their names on the forum here in your sig telling the world how 'great' a guy u are. Thats satisfaction for some people I guess..

Gerbil Intaki	Posted - 2006.03.16 13:01:00 - [41] Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned. how is that any differnt from ore theifs using a cheap frigate to steal ore and jet their own can to pick up later or with an alt ? worse stealing ore jetting it and waiting for someone to comeback and try and steal "their" ore back and killing them for it ?
Gerbil Intaki	Posted - 2006.03.16 13:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made. theres always a profit to be made some are just worth more than others.
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2006.03.16 13:06:00 - [43] Originally by: Gerbil Intaki Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned. how is that any differnt from ore theifs using a cheap frigate to steal ore and jet their own can to pick up later or with an alt ? worse stealing ore jetting it and waiting for someone to comeback and try and steal "their" ore back and killing them for it ? The victim is not a newb. As long as that is true, everything goes more or less. Only new players deserve protection from their lack of experience.
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2006.03.16 13:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Gerbil Intaki Originally by: Gariuys A kill everything type of pirate doesn't exist. That's called psycho serial killer. a.k.a. mass murderer. Pirates only kill when there's profit to be made. theres always a profit to be made some are just worth more than others. I take it the security hits and their drawbacks aren't severe enough if this is true.
Deacan Wildfire	Posted - 2006.03.16 13:27:00 - [45] The thing about Eve, and very few other MMOs, is that the players themselves have the power to deal with "griefers" without having to cry to a GM. If someone griefs you in, say, WoW or EQ2, then there's nothing you can do but petition due to the restrictions on player interaction. This is EVE - people need to start looking to other players for help before looking to the GMs. And I hope CCP understands this. Griefers don't need to be banned, they just need to be put to justice by the players. plaguing MMORPGs since 1997
Wendat Huron	Posted - 2006.03.16 13:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Deacan Wildfire The thing about Eve, and very few other MMOs, is that the players themselves have the power to deal with "griefers" without having to cry to a GM. If someone griefs you in, say, WoW or EQ2, then there's nothing you can do but petition due to the restrictions on player interaction. This is EVE - people need to start looking to other players for help before looking to the GMs. And I hope CCP understands this. Griefers don't need to be banned, they just need to be put to justice by the players. That's all fine and dandy in a perfect world, unless the biggest griefers stick together and form an alliance.
Deacan Wildfire	Posted - 2006.03.16 14:35:00 - [47] Even then, you just have one alliance which is essentially fighting the whole shard. They might last a while, but eventually they would just have too many enemies and be overwhelemed. Or failing that, their very nature would cause so many internal issues that they'd just fall apart (most griefers are essentially just opportunists, after all) plaguing MMORPGs since 1997
Asnar	Posted - 2006.03.16 14:51:00 - [48] Originally by: Deacan Wildfire Even then, you just have one alliance which is essentially fighting the whole shard. They might last a while, but eventually they would just have too many enemies and be overwhelemed. Or failing that, their very nature would cause so many internal issues that they'd just fall apart (most griefers are essentially just opportunists, after all) I think he already had a alliance in mind. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
branodn lee	Posted - 2006.03.16 16:24:00 - [49] Edited by: branodn lee on 16/03/2006 16:26:25 Edited by: branodn lee on 16/03/2006 16:25:32 Edited by: branodn lee on 16/03/2006 16:24:44 WOW WOW i really wasnt thinking this was such a hot topic but wow was i wrong. all the feedback is great on this topic and it helps all those who do love to pvp like myslef. im now glad i got this topic going and hope we the people of eve still keep chating peacfuly about it to try to understand what grief tactics really are and how many ways there is a thin line between just being a psycho kill or gate sniper and a grief killer. well lets hope we get a uper managment to post in here or something since we really need them to say for sure whats right and whats wrong or we will have rouge gms doing what ever they want. im not saying there is rouge gms but with this topic and how its gone it seems that some think there is and thats not good for eve. i love this game to much to see a few rouge gms if there are any make players leave this game since they are getting banned for just killing players within the game rules. agin thank you for all the post my fellow eve players i am really happy with all the feedback and keep it comeing please.
MrTripps	Posted - 2006.03.16 16:53:00 - [50] Killing nubes is kinda a-holeish, but it teaches them a good lesson. I'll also point out that as a fairly new player I often took people's rat turds and claimed nube when I got caught (which was rare). "Gee, sorry. I thought it was my can." It was profitable, but a little harder to pull off since they changed the can colors. "Ummmm, sorry. I'm color blind" doesn't go over well.

James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.16 17:08:00 - [51] EVE is far looser about 'griefing' than any other game, simply because it's competitive. If someone kills me, blows my ship and pods me, that's normal competition, and I'll be more careful next time. And maybe try and get my own back. However, abusing the fact that newbies don't understand the game as well, to get 'cheap' kills, I would consider griefing. As would I 'come gang with me to mission' and bombing them into a BS spawn, or ... a whole host of other things designed solely to exert your superiority over someone who'd not been playing very long. And yes, I do include dropping cans as bait and ganking thieves. It's one thing when it's someone who should know better. It's another entirely when someone who is _genuinely_ inexperienced gets blown away by some moron in a BS who thinks it's funny. -- We are recruiting We sell carriers.
Harfang Neige	Posted - 2006.03.16 21:11:00 - [52] Consider this semi-hypothetical situation: A player with 2 years of SP, brings his Battleship to a .4 sec dead end system and proceeds to kill players with 3 months of SP's in maybe a cruiser (if not a frigate). Is that real PvP? When asked why they are doing this they reply that they love the killing - and admit they do not want to face the risk involved in dealing with someone who has any chance at all to kill them in return. It makes me think of some guy with a chip on his shoulder, who works out everyday, but is afraid to start a bar fight, so goes to a schoolyard and kicks little kids in the head. Not very nice. From what I can see, the in-game legal system is really not equipped to handle this sort of situation, the young players likely cannot afford to put a big enough bounty on the person's head to make them a juicy target, the sec hits don't matter as they guy can then go do the same thing to rats and nullify any negative standings for the kill. Going back to the schoolyard analogy, if every kid in the shoolyard rushed the guy, he would be toast - but in Eve some of the yards are kinda quiet.
Arkanor	Posted - 2006.03.16 21:54:00 - [53] Edited by: Arkanor on 16/03/2006 21:54:49 Low sec is dangerous, ppl get killed, it happens. I just hate when it happens in empire.
gfldex	Posted - 2006.03.17 07:52:00 - [54] Originally by: Asane Would be nice to be informed about those rules.. same with the whole concord deal.. Not that I'm ever gonna try tanking one, but getting banned for it? And getting banned for using gamemechanics? Dev/CRC, someone, could you make a list of the nono's for us so we don't have to risk banning at all times? Do you remember that ugly accident where a GM changed the name of 4C? The actions of GMs are not the actions of devs by default. And even then a ban is something that can be questioned in curt in a lot countries even if the terms of use or license agreement back it. (we have some really nasty laws here in germany). The actions of a GM is not right by default. As we have learned in the past two GMs can decide different. We still don't know for sure if jet can tricking is a banable act or not. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
gfldex	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Danton Marcellus Killing everyone isn't piracy, that's massmurder as pointed out already, a real pirate would have some brains to his head and work the angles of his trade to secure himself deals from certain people and avoid others for the sake of selfpreservation. We had and still have pirates on the seven seas. They come to a ship, kill anybody or sell them as slaves (the latter is not happening luckyly), ransoms happened but where rare. To make that clear: In nearly any case of piracy anybody aboard gets killed. That's what happens even in modern times. The ship is repainted and sold. The goods get taken and are sold too. If both is not an option the ship is sunk. Pirates kill anybody mostly because that way there are no witnesses even if there is no good of value aboard. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Herko Kerghans	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:37:00 - [56] Originally by: Harfang Neige ...brings his Battleship to a .4 sec dead end system... Whenever you talk about low-sec or 0.0 and feel like throwing in a real life comparison, bear this in mind: Low-sec and 0.0. Are. NOT. The. Schoolyard. (Or sandbox, or whaterver.) The guy in the BS can be a bully, buy if he is doing his killing in low sec, then it is the lil' kid that left the schoolyard/sandbox and, after his mother/father/legal guardian told him not to go to the dark alley where bully losers hang out, still goes to said dark alley and gets his nose broken. End of it. We can discuss the validity of the bully-in-a-sandbox argument when talking about high-sec (I, for one, think it does applie, and think that at least some areas of high-sec, say for example 1.0 and 0.9, should be 'higher-sec' for the very rookie players to hang around), but when you are in low-sec: you clicked the CONCORD box, you are there because you want to, you should have known better. - Barriers - an EVE novel - Chapter #4 released
Corp Scammer	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:59:00 - [57] mmm gives me an idea - off to sit in front of newbie station shooting silly noobs CCP: requested feature please - quite simple really. For CEOs, days since last login details on all members in their Corp. this will help manage inactives and those that dont log in can be removed.
Avon	Posted - 2006.03.17 09:12:00 - [58] Originally by: EVIL SOULS My player was banned for using this tactic in 1.0 space. Setting out cans and letting noobs steal them. The GM informed me that this is a grief tactic and you can be banned. If it happened in a starter system I would tend to agree. No matter how much you are allowed to get away with in Eve in general, never push your luck in a starter system. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Kryss Darkdust	Posted - 2006.03.17 10:08:00 - [59] Edited by: Kryss Darkdust on 17/03/2006 10:09:52 Originally by: EVIL SOULS Well, thats what I thought also but the GM decided different. I am not going to say the GM was wrong in the situation. People are warned before they steal, but I guess killing noobs for it is a no no. Keep in mind that GM's are freeform. They are basically trusted to ensure the vision and rules of the game are enforced. That doesn't mean they do their job right everytime, sometimes you have to imagine they make judgement calls that might not adhere to the devs vision. I can assure you that this is not griefing, in fact this very question was asked and asnwered by the Devs not so long ago and they made it very clear that stealing containers is an act of piracy and you can expect retribution, its the sole purpose of the aggression counter. I imagine your not telling us the whole story here. A GM will rarely get involved unless their is a exploit used or the grief tactic exploits players completetly unprepared to deal with it. If you were doing this in a Noob zone, I can see how they may warn you for that.
Sun Ra	Posted - 2006.03.17 14:56:00 - [60] snip - Laqum Arcane Frankologies - 'plz stop guys it's xmas'

Tharkad	Posted - 2006.03.17 15:15:00 - [61] Pretty much everything that is done or can be done in this game is in effect griefing someone. Thats a large part of the appeal of the game, what you do is of consequence and impacts other players, often times even without you intending to or knowing that you've done it. Being successful in this game means you've learned to grief other people smarter, faster and better then anyone else.
Frankinator	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:13:00 - [62] Originally by: branodn lee i am a pirate and all i do when i log in is kill as many people as possable. is this grief tactics. i dont think so but since i have seen this topic talked about more and more i need to ask. what do you the people of eve and the gms or devs think and how do you know when you are a grief tactic person instead of a kill everyone pirate. You're a pirate?
Vertical Aim	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:14:00 - [63] Originally by: Ephemeron As a PvP'er, I don't believe that griefing is anything more than exploiting some obviously bugged game mechanic to kill people. If you kill people by the game rules, it's not griefing Totally agree.
Slaveabuser	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:18:00 - [64] Originally by: Kel Shek or "because your a dirty slaver" or "because your a hippie gallente" or 'because I want your stuff" Killing the Minmatars since 22480 AD
0bsession	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:53:00 - [65] Originally by: EVIL SOULS Well, thats what I thought also but the GM decided different. I am not going to say the GM was wrong in the situation. People are warned before they steal, but I guess killing noobs for it is a no no. I only read this far until I got peeved. I'm assuming the GMs response to this being "griefing" is because the only outcome for you was your jollies. Doing this over and over in an area with unexperienced noobs is pointless and lame... which only has one purpose to drive the noob base out and give you a huge ego boost to kill a helpless noob. It was and IS griefing.
JagdWulfe	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:39:00 - [66] Originally by: branodn lee i am a pirate and all i do when i log in is kill as many people as possable. is this grief tactics. i dont think so but since i have seen this topic talked about more and more i need to ask. what do you the people of eve and the gms or devs think and how do you know when you are a grief tactic person instead of a kill everyone pirate. I'd say it depends on your targets. If you solely attacked noob ships then yes you'd be a griefer. But if you went after whoever crossed your path than no you are just a rabid sociopath that Concord needs to haul away. :)
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:42:00 - [67] I grief, therefore I am.
Montero	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:48:00 - [68] Originally by: Kel Shek I think the line is this. is the action in question, offensive against the CHARACTER or the PLAYER. and don't give any of this "its just a game, I can't do anything offensive against the other person, they are there willingly" nonsense. thats bull** and you know it. these games are not meaningless toys, they are persistent state worlds. so it's not a toy and we arent just playing as space men? i understand your sentiments, but dude, it really is a game. JUST GET THE ** OFF MY SIG, K?
Gretchen Dawntreader	Posted - 2006.03.17 17:59:00 - [69] Quote: i am a pirate and all i do when i log in is kill as many people as possable. is this grief tactics. i dont think so Ever watched a movie about pirates? What's a pirate without booty? Buried treasure? Governor's daughters held for ransom? Treating EVE as a frag-zone to get listed on killboards, yeah that pretty much marks you as a griefer. Piracy is a business. Fraggers would be better suited in a shooter, to which you are cordially invited to migrate. There is no profit motive in dangling a can in front of a noob station exit so you can pod noobs in their noob frigs with your Raven or whatever. That's roughly the equivalent of sticking a cat in a bag and hitting the bag with a hammer to listen to the funny noises. Remember all those high school shootings where you learned afterwards about kids who tormented animals for fun and thought of people as things rather than other people? My theory is that griefers are players who easily ignore that the other participants in the game are other people, and so therefore they feel no need to maintain any standards of behavior (lawful or unlawful.) Treating the game as single-player, they will blow you up just to watch the pretty colors. Griefing is a social malfunction. People attracted to griefing need therapy.
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.17 18:00:00 - [70] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz I grief, therefore I am. You do so in low sec, therefore any day old newbies who run into you get a valuable lesson. Can dropping and ganking in kisogo would make you a git, pirating just makes you the baddie that everyone loves to chase (or run away from). -- We are recruiting We sell carriers.

Svetlana Scarlet	Posted - 2006.03.17 19:36:00 - [71] Originally by: Deacan Wildfire The thing about Eve, and very few other MMOs, is that the players themselves have the power to deal with "griefers" without having to cry to a GM. If someone griefs you in, say, WoW or EQ2, then there's nothing you can do but petition due to the restrictions on player interaction. This is EVE - people need to start looking to other players for help before looking to the GMs. And I hope CCP understands this. Griefers don't need to be banned, they just need to be put to justice by the players. I'd agree in some cases -- this is part of why CAIN tries to make a show of force in lowsec areas of Caldari space on a regular basis -- but that doesn't really stop the people who are out for cheap kills by exploiting the inexperience of newbies or vaporizing anything they can sitting at 150km from a gate and running like a little girl when it's time to pay the piper. I would agree with the person that said pirates shoot people down because they are trying to make a living at it -- psychopathic serial killers are the ones who shoot anything that moves or vaporize newbies for kicks. As for the alliances -- I think many of the most powerful alliances are populated mostly by pirates (or ex-pirates), so your idea has some implementation issues. However, it is entirely possible to take the fight back to them -- certainly there are several corporations and alliances that do this on a daily basis. It does take some practice, some courage, and a good chunk of resources to do so, though. -- LT Svetlana Scarlet Deputy Quartermaster Captain, CNS Redball Express Caldari Independent Navy Reserve


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