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Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:47:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Tux
Assault Ships
There is not going to be any drastic assault ship overhaul but there are some frigs we are going to give a slight boost to keep them inline with other assault ships. The ones we're giving a boost are Vengeance, Hawk and Jaguar. Again I remind you that this is nowhere near final.
Vengeance - It has the damage output of a wet paper towel. Well not really but it still a bit odd that it doesn't have a single damage bonus. The cap recharge rate bonus has been replaced with small laser damage bonus.
Hawk - Its going to be a missile assault ship. Its gettting 4 missile hardpoints, the launcher rate of fire bonus changed to a 5% kinetic missile damage and the hybrid optimal changed to either missile velocity or missile damage. As it is now both bonuses are damage.
Jaguar - We've changed the projectile optimal range bonus to ship velocity, The Jaguar then becomes kind of a hybrid between an interceptor and an assault ships. It could also do with a tiny bit of cpu upgrade.
Orginal Thread |
Fogy
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:49:00 -
[2]
HAHA i might actually boter trying an other AF than the wolf now then.. lol
newer even owned a caldari one yett.. with the 4 launcher hardpoints the HAWK actually gets usefull tbh!
and the Jaguar.. speed bonus! :D im loving this one tbh!!
Cheers!
Fogy
"From my rotting boddy flowers shall grow and I am in them, and that is eternity"
♥RUBRA♥
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:51:00 -
[3]
I predict vengeance will still be easiest AF to pwn with inty after this change.
Jaguar will pwn, hawk will probably get nerfed as t2 kessi is overkill.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
People like Lukec are the problem and they know it. Shin Ra's Raven has 4x WCS, Lukec's Dominix has 5x WCS & Ishtar has 2x WCS.
Antipiracy is causing brain damage |
Xanta
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:52:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Originally by: Tux
Jaguar - We've changed the projectile optimal range bonus to ship velocity, The Jaguar then becomes kind of a hybrid between an interceptor and an assault ships. It could also do with a tiny bit of cpu upgrade.
Orginal Thread
mini vaga? 
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Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:52:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 16/03/2006 09:57:25
I think it's great that missile lovers finally will get their AF. Quote:
Vengeance - It has the damage output of a wet paper towel.
That might be true, but jag deals less raw dps atm, even with a 25% dmg bonus. Jag really needs a dmg boost as well imo.
What about missing slots? Iirc, hawk, veng, jag and ishkur have one less slot than the others (but the ishkur has a nice drone bay, so it doesn't need an 11th slot imo).
A dirty job - Released 2006.01.02 |
keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:53:00 -
[6]
Eh, not sure trading cap recharge for damage is going to make it a better ship. Youll have cap issues instead of damage issues.
----------------
Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Celador Nane
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:54:00 -
[7]
Bah, the vengeance is still gonna suck... just not quite as much. Nice changes for the jag + hawk tho..
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 09:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Xanta
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Originally by: Tux
Jaguar - We've changed the projectile optimal range bonus to ship velocity, The Jaguar then becomes kind of a hybrid between an interceptor and an assault ships. It could also do with a tiny bit of cpu upgrade.
Orginal Thread
mini vaga?
No, the vaga does good damage.
----------------
Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: keepiru
Originally by: Xanta
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Originally by: Tux
Jaguar - We've changed the projectile optimal range bonus to ship velocity, The Jaguar then becomes kind of a hybrid between an interceptor and an assault ships. It could also do with a tiny bit of cpu upgrade.
Orginal Thread
mini vaga?
No, the vaga does good damage.
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Quote:
Vengeance - It has the damage output of a wet paper towel.
That might be true, but jag deals less raw dps atm, even with a 25% dmg bonus. Jag really needs a dmg boost as well imo.
Originally by: Tuxford
Vengeance - It has the damage output of a wet paper towel. Well not really ...
Originally by: Ras Blumin
What about missing slots? Iirc, hawk, veng, jag and ishkur has one less slot than the others (but the ishkur gets a nice drone bay).
That's true there is also the matter of "missing" bonuses. Tbh I don't think that assault ships need a boost in general just these ships so I can't see the bonuses doing anything other then mess up that balance. The missing slot is another issue though and I guess that its no coincedence that three of the ships we're looking at are the ones that are missing a slot. I'm not entirely sure that it's the missing slot that's the problem though I think it's the additional turret hardpoint.
Retribution, Harpy and Jaguar aren't really gaining much slot wise Retribution gets a high slot but no weapon hardpoint, Harpy gains a high slot it can fit a missile launcher in and the Wolf as well. The Ishkur just gets a reletively huge dronebay.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tuxford
I'm not entirely sure that it's the missing slot that's the problem though I think it's the additional turret hardpoint.
when it comes to the jaguar, the missing (mid please) slot is definatly an issue.
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:07:00 -
[12]
Regarding the Hawk: While I do applaud the addition of a missile ship for assault ship pilots, the provision of 4 launcher hard points seems like a bit much given the base ships history, and Lai Dai's stated fondness for mixed weapon ships. Personally, I'd be more inclined to give it just 3 launcher hardpoints, and leave it more defense focused than offense focused (since it has both a resist bonus and a shield boost amount bonus). |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Tuxford
I'm not entirely sure that it's the missing slot that's the problem though I think it's the additional turret hardpoint.
when it comes to the jaguar, the missing (mid please) slot is definatly an issue.
It isn't missing a slot, it just has 1 less total then the wolf. Just like all 2nd AFs have 1 slot less. They're the funky/fun ship. The others are the powerhouse/race speciality ships.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:09:00 -
[14]
Very good changes. As usual you guys are great at keeping players informed.
I wont get started on the quality of blizzard's player feedback since its so sad it doesnt deserve to be mentioned.
---
"Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait" |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:13:00 -
[15]
btw, assuming the velocity bonus will be 5% per level, with assault ships 5 and nav 5 it will go 507m/s 
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Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:13:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 16/03/2006 10:14:41
Originally by: Tux
...
I was trying to say that both ships probably need a damage boost 
A dirty job - Released 2006.01.02 |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:14:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 16/03/2006 10:13:48
Originally by: "Tux"
...
I was trying to say that both ships probably need a damage boost
Yeah I know the damage output of the Jaguar is pretty weak.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 16/03/2006 10:13:48
Originally by: "Tux"
...
I was trying to say that both ships probably need a damage boost
Yeah I know the damage output of the Jaguar is pretty weak.
+50% damage per level of minmatar frigate would sort that out
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Sir Juri
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:17:00 -
[19]
Tux thanks a bunch for makin hawk a missile boat
Im a noob, bear with me :P |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tuxford
Yeah I know the damage output of the Jaguar is pretty weak.
You could give it a tiny drone bay. 
Probably not a very good idea, but it would fit with the way the bigger Minmatar ships often use everything (guns, missiles, and drones). |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 16/03/2006 10:13:48
Originally by: "Tux"
...
I was trying to say that both ships probably need a damage boost
Yeah I know the damage output of the Jaguar is pretty weak.
+50% damage per level of minmatar frigate would sort that out
Should go well with a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:19:00 -
[22]
hmm I'm beginning to fear what kind of tagteam a tackling ac jag and a long-range arti wolf is going to make...
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Tuxford
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 16/03/2006 10:13:48
Originally by: "Tux"
...
I was trying to say that both ships probably need a damage boost
Yeah I know the damage output of the Jaguar is pretty weak.
+50% damage per level of minmatar frigate would sort that out
Should go well with a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
rofl
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Halada
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:22:00 -
[24]
It's nice they're making thr Hawk a missile boat, I was really against going for a Harpy since I had absolutely no motivation to cross train missiles and gunnery. Now I can be a total missile w***e in a Hawk :D
My ''All you want to know about mining'' Guide |
Epsilon 1
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:24:00 -
[25]
Amarr AF:
Vengeance: replace the cap rech bonus for a 5% dmg one.
Retribution: Give it a 2nd med slot and delete the 5th utility one.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Epsilon 1
Retribution: Give it a 2nd med slot and delete the 5th utility one.
and make it quite possibly the most overpowered solo af vs anything besides minmatar?
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:32:00 -
[27]
Meh, it still wouldnt be able to fit beams worth a damn, or actually hold its target down. But it might be *SOME* use in pvp.
----------------
Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Epsilon 1
Retribution: Give it a 2nd med slot and delete the 5th utility one.
and make it quite possibly the most overpowered solo af vs anything besides minmatar?
Well... there is no cpu to fit anything in 5. hi slot and there won't be enough cpu to fit anything in med slot.
However Amarr is the 4tl race in frigs atm.
Anathema is worst covertop
vengeance worst AF, even with bonus change, i think i'll still happily kill them in any inty.
maledicion & crusader are just average
purifier... try to kill frig with plate
retribution... would actually be good if ppl would not have chronical tendancy to align first and shoot later.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
People like Lukec are the problem and they know it. Shin Ra's Raven has 4x WCS, Lukec's Dominix has 5x WCS & Ishtar has 2x WCS.
Antipiracy is causing brain damage |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:51:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Koori
missile AF ftw! \o/
Great idea CCP.
I believe you mean great idea Weirda
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Koori
missile AF ftw! \o/
Great idea CCP.
I sense another overpowered caldari ship.
Originally by: Commander Nikolas
People like Lukec are the problem and they know it. Shin Ra's Raven has 4x WCS, Lukec's Dominix has 5x WCS & Ishtar has 2x WCS.
Antipiracy is causing brain damage |
R31D
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Posted - 2006.03.16 10:58:00 -
[31]
Hawk's going to be so mean after these changes come into play. Also, with the Jaguar, it'd be much better if it were given a small speed increase and changed a low to a mid in my opinion but this change will work well too. I can't wait 
Free bumpage for all |
Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:14:00 -
[32]
Hawk: +2 launcher hardpoints, leave rof bonus, change 10% optimal to 10% missile velocity
make sure the bonuses are valid also for rockets and harpy will drop in price :-)
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Nifel
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:20:00 -
[33]
Still no point in using a jaguar with these changes if it's still only will have 3 medslots.
Damage output too small and the medslots it does have are needed for the ever so vital mwd/scramble/web combo to even consider having some sort of tank on it. It's an inty with nicer resists but without the speed really :|. At least give us the ability to passive tank it a bit better.
"We wield swords for the sound of laughter that used to be there long ago."
RKK Ranking: (MIN13) Jata |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:25:00 -
[34]
I guess the Hawk will be the aussault frig of choice now. Extreme range, good damage, and nearly as good in killig support as the harpy.
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Demitris
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:30:00 -
[35]
This makes me so happy I can't see straight.
Any idea when these changes will come into effect.
(very glad I purchased a Hawk befor the inevitable price jump, in fact I might buy a few more)
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elFarto
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:41:00 -
[36]
Edited by: elFarto on 16/03/2006 11:41:21
Originally by: Tuxford
Should go well with a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
You could just remove it's useless high slot and make it a mid slot.
You run out of grid/cpu to fit anything useful in the spare high-slot, but still have enough grid/cpu to squeeze a mid slot in.
Pretty please?
Regards
elFarto
npc.elfarto.com > Ingame NPC database
Mal: Just get us on the ground!
Wash: That part will happen pretty definitely. |
Kuolematon
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:50:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Nifel
Still no point in using a jaguar with these changes if it's still only will have 3 medslots.
OMFG! Your right! I couldn't imagine AF with less than 3 medslots. What would you do if you would find out that there is someone with ONE midslot? And I mean this comes from someone who has lvl 5 amarr frigate and soon lvl5 assault ships. 
Unnerf Amarr!!
"Save yourselves........sell out and NAP the 5" ¬ gfasobek |
Jin Entres
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:51:00 -
[38]
Missile assault ship is very nice, but I do have to ask why is the damage bonus kinetic again when missiles' forte is choosing the damage instead of doing a lot of it?
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Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:52:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Vengeance - It has the damage output of a wet paper towel. Well not really but it still a bit odd that it doesn't have a single damage bonus. The cap recharge rate bonus has been replaced with small laser damage bonus.
Stop nerfing Khanid ships. First the Sacrilege and now the Vengeance. The vengeance will turn into a 3-mid-slot-retribution if this change happens. STOP IT!!
To Tuxford: I HATE YOU
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Ö
Ship lover
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Originally by: Nifel
Still no point in using a jaguar with these changes if it's still only will have 3 medslots.
OMFG! Your right! I couldn't imagine AF with less than 3 medslots. What would you do if you would find out that there is someone with ONE midslot? And I mean this comes from someone who has lvl 5 amarr frigate and soon lvl5 assault ships.
omg, maybe the retri is an armor tanker, and the jaguar a shield tanker?1
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.03.16 11:57:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
To Tuxford: I HATE YOU
You do realise only teenagers and older can play this game right?
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Kel Dario
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Posted - 2006.03.16 12:28:00 -
[42]
Nice change to the HAWK. The Gallente will not be the only race with 2 good AF's after this
As for the Vengance and Jaguar, I'm not certain it will make much off a difference but hey what do I know... The slight CPU increase for the jag is good tough.
And the ship you forgot about, the Retribution, still desparetly need a second mid-slott
Kel
Oh and I almost forgot; the changes you did to the Sacrilege STINKS!! |
Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2006.03.16 13:29:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Hellspawn01
To Tuxford: I HATE YOU
You do realise only teenagers and older can play this game right?
What do you mean with that?
------
Ö
Ship lover
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Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:04:00 -
[44]
I'm not 100% convinced that the Vengeance will still be good enough after this, but it's a step in the right direction -- and the other changes are wonderful. Yes, Hawk and Jaguar will become mean ships. I have no problem with that, I fly Gallente and we have 2 great AFs, I see no reason to deny other races that joy.
Can't wait to try these out.
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LCIceo
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:24:00 -
[45]
Cant wait fly a hawk now. :D...
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Hellspawn01
To Tuxford: I HATE YOU
You do realise only teenagers and older can play this game right?
What do you mean with that?
Deja is attempting to act mature to counter you acting immaturely
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Wizzkidy
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:36:00 -
[47]
I use the vengance sometimes and I have to agree with Tux that it's damage output could be alot better.
If only it was given one extra low slot it could really be a nice little assult frig. At the moment it must be the least used AF in the game.
I find it hard to fit it out decently and I normally end up with a tank and of course that means a crappy setup on the damage.
It's a good tackler though if you get people in range as it is
Any changes to the vengence is a good change and I will leave tux down to his changes and be happy what ever the out come.
That is all
_______________________________
Waa it still too big not by much tho |
James Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:38:00 -
[48]
I shall be buying some hawks.
I like harpies well enough, but am definitely a missile spammer rather than a gun monkey.
--
We are recruiting
We sell carriers. |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.03.16 14:53:00 -
[49]
Ahh no reply from Hanns yet hehe. Wonder if he saw the Hawk is going to be the missile boat =)
Jaguar - On the changes for Jags, I do like them. The ship itself really isn't to big of a deal for damage output. I mean we do have the wolf and the jag was always a more tanked tackler. I still used it and it was never one of those ships I hated to use. The speed bonus will make it more usable for me. I will get much enjoyment out of the Jaguar in 0.0 space when trying to catch indys. Thanks CCP
Hawk - Making this a missile boat was very much needed. Think it should get the 5% to kinetic and velocity missile damage. On that note, I think it's sensor strengths should be lowered. It's extreamly high for it's class.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.16 15:03:00 -
[50]
Edited by: j0sephine on 16/03/2006 15:04:22
"I guess the Hawk will be the aussault frig of choice now. Extreme range, good damage, and nearly as good in killig support as the harpy."
If she keeps currently planned bonus set (10% to kinetic damage, 5% to other damage types) then maxed out range will be ~40 km with light missiles... Harpy still eats that for breakfast.
A very nice ship by all means, but perhaps not quite something to get up in arms about, yet ^^;
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:23:00 -
[51]
Maybe switch the shield boost bonus for a shield resist like most other caldari ships have gotten, think the hawk is the only one left with a shield boost bonus now. Or would that make it too overpowered?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:37:00 -
[52]
Edited by: j0sephine on 16/03/2006 18:37:46
"Maybe switch the shield boost bonus for a shield resist like most other caldari ships have gotten, think the hawk is the only one left with a shield boost bonus now. Or would that make it too overpowered?"
Well, if Hawk was to resemble the other Caldari missile ships, then the shield boost bonus should be removed completely (since shield resistance bonus is something the railgun boats get -- Merlin, Moa, Eagle, Ferox) ... the missile ships get the velocity/flight time bonus to missiles, but that'd probably make Hawk quite a bit too much o.O;
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:39:00 -
[53]
Would be funny tho - mini cerb ^^"
----------------
Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Cade Morrigan
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:07:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Cade Morrigan on 16/03/2006 19:22:00
Hawk prices just quadrupled* in The Forge. 23-26mil each now. I'm glad i've had mine in the garage for the past 4 months.
*Edit: so my math sucks, prices are about 2.5x what they were :P
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:15:00 -
[55]
Tux, the vengeance is going to need a bit more. It needs that damage bonus but it also desperatly needs the cap recharge one which was its only saving grace before. I'd replace the op range bonus instead of cap recharge since it does not have the grid to fit beams anyway. The other thing that kills the vengeance is it's terrible mass and speed. Please reduce it's mass and increase speed. Not by alot, but by a noticeable amount. Right now punisher with 1mn ab 2 goes 700-800m/s with decent nav skills. Vengeance hardly breaks 500. I know it's an af and they are heavier, but it is the easiest one to hit right now afaik. Also there's the issue of the slots. If it gets another one it should be a med slot because if it's a low it will just turn into a weaker version of the retribution. It would be much more interesting to have it be able to pack some tricks and surprises.
Even with what i just suggested i think it would still be the weakest af.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:23:00 -
[56]
best thing any of the af's could get is for ceptors to have one bonus switched to a ew bonus. AF's to me will always live in the shadow of ceptors under given game mechanics imo.
as for af's, well jag is looking to be turned into a ac based setup, fair enough, kinda makes sense, hawk will simply be awesome, vengeance gets a deserved boost.
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Draximus Prime
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:34:00 -
[57]
For the love of all things Amarr give the Retribution a 2nd Medslot.
Retribution can either web ... and have target warp away...
Retribution can either warp scramble ... and have target speed away...
Retribution can either have a speed boost module and have target warp away // go too fast to hit.
Its pretty useless ship.
______________________
To dare in fields is valor; but how few dare to be throughly valiant to be true? |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:35:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Draximus Prime
For the love of all things Amarr give the Retribution a 2nd Medslot.
Retribution can either web ... and have target warp away...
Retribution can either warp scramble ... and have target speed away...
Retribution can either have a speed boost module and have target warp away // go too fast to hit.
Its pretty useless ship.
As was said before, to balance a second medslot it would need to be nerf batted somewhere else otherwise it will just pwn everything. The one medslot is annoying, but it only really stops it from soloing. I have made fantastic use of it in gangs.
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loosejuice
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:51:00 -
[59]
Originally by: LUKEC
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Epsilon 1
Retribution: Give it a 2nd med slot and delete the 5th utility one.
and make it quite possibly the most overpowered solo af vs anything besides minmatar?
Well... there is no cpu to fit anything in 5. hi slot and there won't be enough cpu to fit anything in med slot.
However Amarr is the 4tl race in frigs atm.
Anathema is worst covertop
vengeance worst AF, even with bonus change, i think i'll still happily kill them in any inty.
maledicion & crusader are just average
purifier... try to kill frig with plate
retribution... would actually be good if ppl would not have chronical tendancy to align first and shoot later.
LUKEC no offense m8 but what are u smoking???
I loveeeeeeeeeeeeeee the vengeance, getting a damage bonus is making me go all fuzzy.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.16 19:53:00 -
[60]
Remarkably sensible changes.
Necrologic, or for PvE.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 20:01:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Remarkably sensible changes.
Necrologic, or for PvE.
somethings wrong. what have you done with maya? IMPOSTER!
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Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.16 20:04:00 -
[62]
Heh. I was the one calling for individual boosts to the weaker AF's rather than a fourth bonus in the long AF thread y'know :P
And on second thoughts, not sure that that change does enough for the Vengence.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
keepiru
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Posted - 2006.03.16 20:13:00 -
[63]
hmm. disagreement... you might be maya after all... in either case, we shall be watching for other abnormal behavious @.@
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Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief.
Barricades a speciality!
Last stands on request. |
Kular
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Posted - 2006.03.16 20:14:00 -
[64]
As mentioned earlier I will plead with you Tuxford! DO not replace the cap recharge bonus for the Vengeance! It sets it apart from the Retribution and makes up for its lack of low slots!!
I just finnished AF 5 a few weeks ago, and trust me being able to tank like the Retri without a cap relay helps a TON!
Replace the worthless optimal range bonus with the dmg one you suggested. Retri is better suited for ranged dmg, Vengeance is the Amarr AF tackler, close range is what it excells at anyways!
Keep the Cap recharge Bonus!
For God, Empire, and Sarum! |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.16 20:25:00 -
[65]
Makes sense, Kular
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Arashi Miike
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Posted - 2006.03.16 20:51:00 -
[66]
As far as I can see, the Vengence is still going to suck. A damage bonus helps, but not at the expense of its cap recharge bonus, which really makes it unique. If anything, change the optimal bonus. The description even mentions "fairly robust electronics", though descriptions can't really be trusted.
I'd like to see a 5th high slot on the Vengence. Make it a launcher hard-point, to keep it from being overpowered, and give the ship enough grid/cpu to fit another launcher. This will help the dps some, but not drastically. This would help to bring it in line with the other AFs that have 5 highs. (I doubt it's a coincidence that the ships that need changing are all missing-slot ships) It also makes the ship more 'Khanid' in the sense of a laser/missile hybrid ship.
Anyway, I'm really happy about the Hawk changes. Glad to see it'll finally be the ship we've all wanted.
"I should have been a pair of ragged claws/
scuttling across the floors of silent seas." |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:06:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Arashi Miike
As far as I can see, the Vengence is still going to suck. A damage bonus helps, but not at the expense of its cap recharge bonus, which really makes it unique. If anything, change the optimal bonus. The description even mentions "fairly robust electronics", though descriptions can't really be trusted.
I'd like to see a 5th high slot on the Vengence. Make it a launcher hard-point, to keep it from being overpowered, and give the ship enough grid/cpu to fit another launcher. This will help the dps some, but not drastically. This would help to bring it in line with the other AFs that have 5 highs. (I doubt it's a coincidence that the ships that need changing are all missing-slot ships) It also makes the ship more 'Khanid' in the sense of a laser/missile hybrid ship.
Anyway, I'm really happy about the Hawk changes. Glad to see it'll finally be the ship we've all wanted.
I think most people would just fit nos instead of missiles. But that could be cool too, drop the missile dmg bonuses for nos effectivness.
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Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:06:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Draximus Prime
For the love of all things Amarr give the Retribution a 2nd Medslot.
Retribution can either web ... and have target warp away...
Retribution can either warp scramble ... and have target speed away...
Retribution can either have a speed boost module and have target warp away // go too fast to hit.
Its pretty useless ship.
Signed
Originally by: Kular
As mentioned earlier I will plead with you Tuxford! DO not replace the cap recharge bonus for the Vengeance! It sets it apart from the Retribution and makes up for its lack of low slots!!
I just finnished AF 5 a few weeks ago, and trust me being able to tank like the Retri without a cap relay helps a TON!
Replace the worthless optimal range bonus with the dmg one you suggested. Retri is better suited for ranged dmg, Vengeance is the Amarr AF tackler, close range is what it excells at anyways!
Keep the Cap recharge Bonus!
Its a khanid ship so Tuxford is going to destroy it like the sacrilege. Its actually pointless to discuss changes planned by Tuxford unless he actually listens to us.
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Ö
Ship lover
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Hanns
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Posted - 2006.03.16 21:31:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Ahh no reply from Hanns yet hehe. Wonder if he saw the Hawk is going to be the missile boat =)
Jaguar - On the changes for Jags, I do like them. The ship itself really isn't to big of a deal for damage output. I mean we do have the wolf and the jag was always a more tanked tackler. I still used it and it was never one of those ships I hated to use. The speed bonus will make it more usable for me. I will get much enjoyment out of the Jaguar in 0.0 space when trying to catch indys. Thanks CCP
Hawk - Making this a missile boat was very much needed. Think it should get the 5% to kinetic and velocity missile damage. On that note, I think it's sensor strengths should be lowered. It's extreamly high for it's class.
i just saw your post, what made yo usay that, was it the fact i said a very long time ago the Hawk should have been a missile boat.
Originally by: Tuxford
a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
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Kai Lae
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Posted - 2006.03.17 01:17:00 -
[70]
I posted this in the other thread, but I'll do so again because it's getting drowned by tachy arguements and typhoon whinage:
It's a start. The proposed changes to assault frigates are needed, however, they don't go far enough. Why are the 3 mentioned not used very much? For 2 reasons, first, bad bonuses (which CCP has now seen fit to address), but second, and most importantly, power of the ship. Specifically, the other assault frigate is seen as being a better choice in all respects because it is a better ship, and the hawk, vengeance, and jaguar as only a viable choice if you're low on cash. These changes will help these ships (especially the hawk which comes out best here) but in the end the other assault frigates available for that race will still be a better choice, because they're more powerful.
Jaguar: Speed bonus is a nice change, one that was asked for. However, it still needs that 4th mid slot. Currently you can tank your Jag, or you can set it up to carry a scrammer or web, but not both. The Wolf on the other hand can be tanked (though admittedly it's a PITA) and is therefore more popular as it's more flexible. Without a 4th midslot and the CPU to support it (plus a CPU boost to it's already inadequate CPU) you may be creating what's considered to be the new T2 shuttle.
Vengeance: Addition of damage bonus, good. Removal however of cap recharge to do it, BAD. This was one of the useful bonuses, which allowed the fitting of a MWD without fitting a cap power relay to run it. Instead we have the optimal range bonus, which really isn't that useful - why not replace it with damage? In addition you still have a amarr ship with more shield points than armor points. As you recently pointed out with the sacrilidge, the khanid thing can go a bit far. Amarr players have the skills to armor tank not shield tank in general and therefore this fact is seen as a negative, as all those points of shielding don't do very much for you. This ship needs a rethink of the distribution between armor and shield points. Again, a 11th slot is needed, a low slot, to make this ship what it can be and justify getting one over a retribution.
In short, why do some assaults have 10 slots, and some have 11? Don't you think this creates a obvious capability gap, except in the case of the ishkur? If the answer is no, then why to the larger brothers of the assault frigate, the heavy assault ship, all have 15 slots? Give this some thought and you'll see the reasons behind my logic, and why while this may be a good start you need to go a bit farther yet.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.03.17 01:40:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Necrologic
Originally by: Draximus Prime
For the love of all things Amarr give the Retribution a 2nd Medslot.
Retribution can either web ... and have target warp away...
Retribution can either warp scramble ... and have target speed away...
Retribution can either have a speed boost module and have target warp away // go too fast to hit.
Its pretty useless ship.
As was said before, to balance a second medslot it would need to be nerf batted somewhere else otherwise it will just pwn everything. The one medslot is annoying, but it only really stops it from soloing. I have made fantastic use of it in gangs.
indeed. I posted in weirda's thread once that if retribution would get a boost, I would change that 5th utility into a turret slot, add more gird and more cpu, and if I would add the 4th bonus it would be a tracking one.
so that way you would have a 5/1/5 ship with 5 turrets that would hit hard. Solo wtfpwner? hell no. Main damage disher in a gang while sporting a nice tank? hell yes.
plus you can add an RP sense to it, since it's a Carthum ship, thus it obeys to the old amarrian philosopy of lots of lasers + lots of armour.
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Originally by: Abdalion
Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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