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Tux, I don't know whether to love or kill you

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Derran	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:21:00 - [181] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Isonkon Serikain Yeah it seems minnies are kind of getting shafted... My advice to minnie pilots is to train missiles now, and caldari bs 5... bugger caldari bs 5 - 4 will do for me :) 2 years ago I trained Minmatar cruiser to 5 and then stopped using it because I couldn't manage to hit much of anything with the projectiles. Then switched to Caldari ships and even trained caldari cruiser and BS to 5 since my missile skills were so high (standard, cruise and torps at 5) as minmatar ships also use missiles anyway so it was a somewhat easy changeover. Then the missile changes came and missiles didn't work the same. If anyone thinks someone got screwed, look no further than my skill list. On the plus side, since I started off 3 years ago wanting to use drones, I had those skills already trained so it makes flying an Ishtar really nice these days with all the addition to the drone skill tree and the focus on drones as a primary weapon rather than so much scrap metal in space. With the Typhoon changes, I am definitely going to switch to that as a battleship. Currently I don't have a BS and I stopped liking the Scorpion and Raven. My missile skills make them work well enough on the Typhoon, especially when combined with the the drone skills I have to make good use of the drone bay. In addition, I can now have a missile based ship that can armor tank(which I prefer over shield tanking), something the Raven couldn't do near as well. So I'm quite happy with the typhoon changes. I just wish it wouldn't have left me with so many crap skills that I am not using.
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:33:00 - [182] true that tachyons are in a class of their own, and minnies could never fit bigger guns than 1400's on their BS's anyways... not enough grid, at all... Now I am pretty sure tachys are the alpha strike kings, not 1400's... So artilleries don't have one area to shine in... No wait, im wrong, they do make the coolest sound when fired. Ison's notches
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:34:00 - [183] Originally by: Isonkon Serikain true that tachyons are in a class of their own, and minnies could never fit bigger guns than 1400's on their BS's anyways... not enough grid, at all... Now I am pretty sure tachys are the alpha strike kings, not 1400's... So artilleries don't have one area to shine in... No wait, im wrong, they do make the coolest sound when fired. according to j0, 1400mms do 10% more alpha strike than tachs now
Karash Amerius	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:37:00 - [184] Originally by: Vanye So Tachs have better tracking, better range, more dps and now even more burst damage than 1400s. Woot for balance . And 1400s can switch to any damage type they want to. ================================ OEC Now Recruiting Come live the life of a 'Merc' today!
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:38:00 - [185] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: The Enslaver One thing most people are forgetting are that Tachyons don't have projectile/hybrid equivalent. Groups are basically: Tachyon - No Proj - No Hyb Mega Beam - 1400mm - 425mm Dual Heavy - 1200mm - 350mm So when you make comparison, the comparison isn't tachyon <-> 1400, its mega beam. The issue there is that there has not been a projectile and hybrid equivalent made. what's even worse is that there are only 2 types of artillery cannon :/ I want a 2000mm Artillery cannon - twice the damage mod of a 1400mm, 2/3 of the rof That would be a little ott... You have to take into consideration the ship bonuses when working everything out... Anyway, I would think 1600mm with 1.2* the dmg mod of 1400mm and 5-10% longer rof. -------- Shinra Director
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:39:00 - [186] "according to j0, 1400mms do 10% more alpha strike than tachs now" 10% more than the "new" tachyon with increased damage modifier, to be exact... compared to current tachyons it should be a bit more than that ^^;
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:40:00 - [187] Originally by: j0sephine "according to j0, 1400mms do 10% more alpha strike than tachs now" 10% more than the "new" tachyon with increased damage modifier, to be exact... compared to current tachyons it should be a bit more than that ^^; sorry, I meant "now" as in "now they have been boosted" :)
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:44:00 - [188] Ahh, ok i misread it then :o (to make the post tad bit more useful, the change for maxed out tech.2 gear goes from 3848 hp per 8-turret salvo to 4074 hp... vs 4474 hp on 6-turret 1400 mm Tempest. So change is from 16% -> 10%
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:44:00 - [189] ok, but if you get into normalized damage comparisons, tachys can do a hard alpha strike AND do pretty high DOT... thats awesome Ison's notches
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:48:00 - [190] Originally by: j0sephine "according to j0, 1400mms do 10% more alpha strike than tachs now" 10% more than the "new" tachyon with increased damage modifier, to be exact... compared to current tachyons it should be a bit more than that ^^; So the minies arent the alfa team anymore?
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2006.03.17 20:55:00 - [191] arties still rule if your shooting stationary and compare on 1 volley only. Beyond that... they do make a cool sound. Ison's notches
dalman	Posted - 2006.03.17 21:08:00 - [192] Edited by: dalman on 17/03/2006 21:09:27 Originally by: The Enslaver One thing most people are forgetting are that Tachyons don't have projectile/hybrid equivalent. Groups are basically: Tachyon - No Proj - No Hyb Mega Beam - 1400mm - 425mm Dual Heavy - 1200mm - 350mm So when you make comparison, the comparison isn't tachyon <-> 1400, its mega beam. The issue there is that there has not been a projectile and hybrid equivalent made. Not really. The dual250mm rail is and was obviously the equivalent to dualHeavy Beam. And 425mm was equivalent to mega beam. After alot of whinage the 425mm was improved to tach lvl, and the 350 was introduced. And at the same time the 1400 was 'upped to tach lvl' as well (but minnie didn't get a 3:rd one). Originally by: The Enslaver And seriously, this stuff about Minmatar's being underpowered is ludicrous. Artilleries do the highest volley damage of any guns in the game. Fact. This is a MASSIVE bonus in any engagement with more than 5 people on each side, and it puts artilleries far, far above any other weapons in group PVP/PVE... To build on that, I'll quote what I wrote in another thread in response to a 'whiner': Originally by: dalman You are wrong. Completely wrong. 1. 1400T2 on tempest: 6.9/(23.630.75)=0.389 normalized damagemod. 2. 425T2: 3.3/9.56=0.345 normalized damagemod. 1 44 = 17.12 2 * 48 = 16.56 Even with highest damage T1 ammo, a 1400 do more DPS than a 425. But due to 7vs6 turret slots the mega do more damage. 1 * 60 = 23.34 -> * 6 = 140.04 2 * 60 = 20.70 -> * 7 = 144.90 = =3.47% more. The T2 ammo has same base damage. Which means the 1400 actually does alot more DPS than a 425. And with 7 turrets instead of 6, the megathron does an 'OMGWTFBBWWHOPPING!!!oneoneone' 3.47% more damage per second. Truely amazing, isn't it? (and it's not like you could fit anything useful in that 7:th slot) Note that these numbers are without considering reload. Also: with new stats, tachyon fitted on a Apoc does 'exactly' the same DPS as a 425mm fitted on mega. With 8 hislots, this means: Apoc does 18% more DPS than tempest. Megathron does 3.47% more DPS than tempest. But; * apoc needs to use 2 fitting mods and has no free highs left, and weapons use some cap. Median alpha strike. 750 dronebay, in case you end up inside 'drone range'. * megathron needs no fitting mods and has one highslot left, and weapons use quite a bit of cap. Lowest alpha strike. 1250 dronebay. * tempest needs no fitting mods and has two highslots left, and weapons don't use cap. Highest alpha strike. 750 dronebay. I really don't see how ppl can complain so much, it looks quite well balanced to me Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.17 21:08:00 - [193] Originally by: Karash Amerius Originally by: Vanye So Tachs have better tracking, better range, more dps and now even more burst damage than 1400s. Woot for balance . And 1400s can switch to any damage type they want to. Yes, and that makes a marginal difference, but not enough to fix their issues, especially considering the choices of amo avaliable for long range. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Tachy	Posted - 2006.03.17 22:55:00 - [194] Nevermind. The devs had to pack their stuff quickly to party in Las Vegas and something had to be done about all those promises. I hope the partying is much better than the changes to the Minmatar ships. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Nafri	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:20:00 - [195] Originally by: Tachy Nevermind. The devs had to pack their stuff quickly to party in Las Vegas and something had to be done about all those promises. I hope the partying is much better than the changes to the Minmatar ships. ohh well, thy explained that thy will keep matari ships down
Nafri	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:21:00 - [196] Originally by: Spokesperson Edited by: Spokesperson on 17/03/2006 18:18:58 Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 16/03/2006 11:39:32 so when your going to increase howitzers tracking? and who the ** wanted tachs to be even better? someone is pwned^^ I stopped flying matari ships month ago. Even the matari recon is a bad excuse. Worthless piece of **, even with faction stuff.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:30:00 - [197] Originally by: Nafri I stopped flying matari ships month ago. Even the matari recon is a bad excuse. Worthless piece of **, even with faction stuff. ah? plz explain i dont have the skills yet for it and hoped it would be atleats decent Originally by:** Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Denrace	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:33:00 - [198] Tachyons aren't that amazing guys... They deal the 2 most tanked damage types in EVE. If I see a sensor boosting Apoc sat at 150km away with T2 tachs i think "meh"... If I see a sensor boosting Tempest with T2 1400mm's parked at 150km I immediately SS, log, erase my hard-drive, burn my PC and emmigrate to some far off Eastern country, living off rat meat and rice for the rest of my days. Dont ever tell me projectiles are crap ever again. Ever. Got it? ________________________________________ Replace the Nighthawk's Target Nav bonus with a ROF bonus!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:34:00 - [199] Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Nafri I stopped flying matari ships month ago. Even the matari recon is a bad excuse. Worthless piece of ****, even with faction stuff. ah? plz explain i dont have the skills yet for it and hoped it would be atleats decent basically, the target painting bonus sucks (as all target painting bonuses do), and there's not much point being able to web people at stupidly far ranges when you can't warp scramble them, and it allows them to warp out far quicker (if they're aligned but not up to speed and you web them, they insta-warp away)
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:38:00 - [200] And if they're NOT nearly alligned, and you ave a deacent setup they're dead. There is no way a frigate can operate within with web bubble. That is a HUGE advantage. Or it would be if prescision missiles could't do the same thing. Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:39:00 - [201] basically, rapiers are excellent support ships and not-so-good for soloing.
dabster	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:59:00 - [202] Originally by: Sarmaul I want a 2000mm Artillery cannon - twice the damage mod of a 1400mm, 2/3 of the rof omg stop it!! now you made me all horny and stuff *runs to google for free6 ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
pWnZA11	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:03:00 - [203] Edited by: pWnZA11 on 18/03/2006 00:04:38 Edited by: pWnZA11 on 18/03/2006 00:04:16 Im not going to rant like some other people but you must admit. Its alittle funny that after all the 20+ page threads on why blasters need a boost, artys need a boost, top tier ACs need a boost, both Minnie Af's need a boost, and the typhoon needs a boost CCP decides once again to give Caldari an awesome ship while doing nothing on items that effect an entire rases ships. Please stop worrying about fixing Caldari stuff wehn they already have some of the best ships in the game and get to work fixing the real issues that people have been proving are broken for weeks. edit Oh and technically I should thank you because this has made me decide to train Caldari first on my alt so by all means boost the Hawk some more =).
Deros	Posted - 2006.03.18 03:06:00 - [204] ens, the fact is this it is artillery CAN do the most volley damage, NOT artillery DO the most volley damage. but tbh 425s can do the same dmg, and with t2 ammo, despite doing less dmg per shot, they have 1 more gun and fire faster. lasers i dont know as well. but this isnt a discussion about either. D
Gary Goat	Posted - 2006.03.18 04:26:00 - [205] What about the deimos tux? Can you at least tell us if you will or wont look into it to shut us up You have read the 13 page deimos thread havent you?
Royaldo	Posted - 2006.03.18 04:42:00 - [206] yeah and weee! for the boring stuff..lasers..and ship.. who cares? now for the comment on blasters.. cream.
Sadist	Posted - 2006.03.18 20:11:00 - [207] Edited by: Sadist on 18/03/2006 20:15:06 Originally by: Nafri It matters for railthrons for sure, even for blasterthrons... fights with 0 Trans are very rare (not even a dread in siege you will shoot with 0 trans). I hope you know that your own speed is also considered for tracking? So even when shooting a webbed BS it will be nice for your damage to have better tracking. Why? Cause YOU can move faster to avoid his damage. ATM blasters have the problem that you cant orbit with your max speed cause you will hurt yourself too much, with more tracking, you can use higher speed, and maybe have the chance to outtrack guns like pulselasers at your range. Learn how the game works dude... A battleship is not an interceptor, and i know more about this game than you ever will. For example taking things like drones (omg my BS can't orbit an ogre?), missiles (omg they nerfed my missiles, now enemies cant run away from them), and Ewar (I think i'll just solo that peacefully looking scorp, wait. NOT) will all screw over a mega, and no amount of tracking will help. The measly increase in speed will in no way help you evade damage from a megapulse, or an autocannon, and the presence of 1 enemy web pretty much throws your argument out of the window. Solving mega's problems by a 12.5% increase to a generally crappy range of guns will not solve its problems. The tracking bonus is like a laugh and spit in the face from missile users - a crappy compensation for a flawed design. You know, by this last post and an insult thrown my way you've eliminated any possible credibility you might have had. --------------- VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
Nafri	Posted - 2006.03.18 21:02:00 - [208] Originally by: Maya Rkell And if they're NOT nearly alligned, and you ave a deacent setup they're dead. There is no way a frigate can operate within with web bubble. That is a HUGE advantage. Or it would be if prescision missiles could't do the same thing. too bad the huginn does crappy damage, and as you said, the caracal is much better for the job. Also for 50km webbing you need to invest in some expansive mods, and you still fly a ship which can barly fit 3x 720 II and 3x Aussault launchers, with no tank at all (3 lowslots and the low PG allow no armor tank, and the 1 spare midslots arent enough for a decent shield tank either). I tested that ship, and couldnt find any use for it where a other ship wouldnt do the job better. You want to kill frigates? Precision missles and a caracal will do the job for 20mio. You want to help your dreads? Just use a bellicose, or better, a BB, it has more midslots... Its just a poor design with no real role. It doesnt have the range to shoot at the designed webbing range (50km easily), nor it has the firepower to kill even an AF, and for a ceptor you must be lucky to kill him.
Nafri	Posted - 2006.03.18 21:14:00 - [209] Originally by: Sadist Edited by: Sadist on 18/03/2006 20:15:06 Originally by: Nafri It matters for railthrons for sure, even for blasterthrons... fights with 0 Trans are very rare (not even a dread in siege you will shoot with 0 trans). I hope you know that your own speed is also considered for tracking? So even when shooting a webbed BS it will be nice for your damage to have better tracking. Why? Cause YOU can move faster to avoid his damage. ATM blasters have the problem that you cant orbit with your max speed cause you will hurt yourself too much, with more tracking, you can use higher speed, and maybe have the chance to outtrack guns like pulselasers at your range. Learn how the game works dude... A battleship is not an interceptor, and i know more about this game than you ever will. For example taking things like drones (omg my BS can't orbit an ogre?), missiles (omg they nerfed my missiles, now enemies cant run away from them), and Ewar (I think i'll just solo that peacefully looking scorp, wait. NOT) will all screw over a mega, and no amount of tracking will help. The measly increase in speed will in no way help you evade damage from a megapulse, or an autocannon, and the presence of 1 enemy web pretty much throws your argument out of the window. Solving mega's problems by a 12.5% increase to a generally crappy range of guns will not solve its problems. The tracking bonus is like a laugh and spit in the face from missile users - a crappy compensation for a flawed design. You know, by this last post and an insult thrown my way you've eliminated any possible credibility you might have had. So what you want. You just ranted about drones, missles, tracking, EW, enemies who uses web themself and the megathron tracking bonus. I wonder if this forums are on aggression mode today. Well: for tracking, I have no interest to explain you the system, just run the tracking guide and play a but around with it, then check the damage against moving targets with different guns, and you will see that this 25% come handy for sure.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.03.18 21:27:00 - [210] But, but, bur, ... Nafri, the Huginn got blinking green lights all over! And flapping chin winglets! and don't forget the engine exhaust trails being multicolored from orange over green to blue! That has to count for something. I am sure. No, really. Oh well. At least it can tank three NPC BC easily while nibbling at them - as long as they're using energy turrets. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray

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