Its called fitting slots. Lots of non-combat ships have them. Battle orca, battle rorqual, battle industrial, battle hulk, these concepts have existed and seen occasional use for years.

That's all well and good, but when you see a ship currently, you automatically know it has predictable limits.

These ship's designs have some flexibility, but ultimately they are pigeon holed quite easily.

Now, the battle badger would be a more serious threat, if it could mount more weapons in exchange for sacrificing cargo space.

Some might think that this infringes on other ship classes, but the differences between a badger and a cruiser are more than just high slots and cargo room.
And for those who object at being fooled by an expectation of helplessness, just no.

EVE already has precedent for this type of design, as per ships in game already:
The Chimera's design is based upon the Kairiola, a vessel holding tremendous historical significance for the Caldari. Initially a water freighter, the Kairiola was refitted in the days of the Gallente-Caldari war to act as a fighter carrier during the orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime.

The original Chimera itself was a Q ship.

Now, the battle badger would be a more serious threat, if it could mount more weapons in exchange for sacrificing cargo space.
.

I have killed a few ships with a battle badger.
I have since learned that the hoarder makes a much better combat ship.
My corp mate often flys combat mining barges and they are great for provoking fights.
You can radically change most ships engagement envelopes with different fits.
You already have the tools to do what you want.

The new industrials have a tremendous amount of fitting flexibility. Give them a shot. Plus, an industrial should not be able to compete against a dedicated combat ship.

Could just make Pirate variants of all the Industrials that look very similarly and are named exactly like regular industrials. They could be obtained through BPC or conversion through LP stores. Have the turret and launcher mounts hidden until the ship aggresses, at which point they are revealed. Seeing as they would be, essentially, normal ships at this point, they would lose the vast majority of their cargo hold and gain more combat ability.

I'd say there should be some visual indication as to the nature of the ship, though. Something that isn't obvious, but something you could spot by actually clicking "look at" and examining the ship.

EDIT: Unfortunately, being named the same would make searching for them in the market confusing, but if they're not named the same, someone can simply glance at the overview and know exactly what it is.

That's all well and good, but when you see a ship currently, you automatically know it has predictable limits.

These ship's designs have some flexibility, but ultimately they are pigeon holed quite easily.

Ok as a fan of old WW2 history I like the idea of being able to create proper Q Ships.

How about a somewhat unorthadox solution to this?

Don't introduce a new pirate ship, but introdude a pirate rig which is limited to industrial ship hull types, and uses enough calibration points that only one can be fit. (after modification ship would have about 175 calibration and 2 rigs slots available.)

This rig would be more akin to a single use subsystem as it would do extensive overhauls to the hull nerfing cargo, adding PG, CPU, speed, agility and even fitting slots of various types (depending on which pirate rig type was utilized.)

The rigging itself could cost about the same as a standard Pirate cruiser.

This would result in the ship showing up as a basic transport yet, since the core hull is still the same. A tactical scanner would be required to identify the true nature of the ship. The modified ship would also not show up on the market but would natrually still be available on contracts.

this is pretty much what i had in mind for a first generation test idea for an EVE Q ship. it would allow people piloting transport ships to be able to put a small bit of caution into whoever is trying to steal from them. also think of the possibilities involved, you could run around in dangerous areas playing bait just waiting for someone to jump out at you... and then they realize just how great a mistake they have made.

and if you think about it cannon wise wouldn't a star faring civilization do everything it could to protect its commerce? an anti-commerce raider would have been developed and used at some point even if it was just an experiment.

Could just make Pirate variants of all the Industrials that look very similarly and are named exactly like regular industrials.

They could be obtained through BPC or conversion through LP stores. Have the turret and launcher mounts hidden until the ship aggresses, at which point they are revealed. Seeing as they would be, essentially, normal ships at this point, they would lose the vast majority of their cargo hold and gain more combat ability.

To be fair... Q-ships had the same problem. They were originally "trade" ships and even with major modifications they could never match a real combat ship in a direct, all-out confrontation.

Not always true... The German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran went toe-to-toe with the HMAS Sydney, and came off slightly the better. Of course, in this context that means that the Kormoran was left burning and crippled, but she's driven the Sydney to retire; burning, sinking, and combat-incapable whilst the Kormoran remained combat-capable. Eventually, the Kormoran was abandoned as well - but she'd successfully decoyed and destroyed a much larger and more capable vessel.

Don't introduce a new pirate ship, but introdude a pirate rig which is limited to industrial ship hull types, and uses enough calibration points that only one can be fit. (after modification ship would have about 175 calibration and 2 rigs slots available.)

This rig would be more akin to a single use subsystem as it would do extensive overhauls to the hull nerfing cargo, adding PG, CPU, speed, agility and even fitting slots of various types (depending on which pirate rig type was utilized.)

The rigging itself could cost about the same as a standard Pirate cruiser.

This would result in the ship showing up as a basic transport yet, since the core hull is still the same. A tactical scanner would be required to identify the true nature of the ship. The modified ship would also not show up on the market but would natrually still be available on contracts.

When I said "direct, all-out confrontation" I was trying to imply that decoying didn't work (or wasn't a factor). Kormoran was only so successful because it fooled the enemy into getting too close and hit all the critical points too fast... yet was crippled itself from only a few half hazard shots from the Sydney (which proves my point).

The current "battle haulers" can more or less perform exactly the way Q-ships did. What I'm seeing here though are unreasonable expectations on what Q-ships could do... that a Q-ship can take on a cruiser pound for pound... when this just was simply not the case.

They were never intended and could never stand against a combat vessel in a toe-to-toe fight.

Batlleships had multiple defenses against torpedoes, a Q-ship would never have been able to sink one. If I remember correctly they were a WWI idea to counter submarines (which would save torpedoes by surfacing and shooting 'defenceless' merchantmen) and also to act against other unarmed merchantmen. They were never intended and could never stand against a combat vessel in a toe-to-toe fight.

In game terms a Q-Ship would need rigs or some such that would remove cargo space in place of extra guns...the structural integrity of the Q-Ship wouldn't really be any better though as the construction of a hauler wouldn't lend itself to such. A few of them together would be able to take down much larger vessels if they got the first few hits in maybe...but then existing haulers fitted for combat can do so already...

A Q-Ship catching an attacker in scram and web to dictate range could be interesting though.

Batlleships had multiple defenses against torpedoes, a Q-ship would never have been able to sink one. If I remember correctly they were a WWI idea to counter submarines (which would save torpedoes by surfacing and shooting 'defenceless' merchantmen) and also to act against other unarmed merchantmen. They were never intended and could never stand against a combat vessel in a toe-to-toe fight.

In game terms a Q-Ship would need rigs or some such that would remove cargo space in place of extra guns...the structural integrity of the Q-Ship wouldn't really be any better though as the construction of a hauler wouldn't lend itself to such. A few of them together would be able to take down much larger vessels if they got the first few hits in maybe...but then existing haulers fitted for combat can do so already...

A Q-Ship catching an attacker in scram and web to dictate range could be interesting though.

I see what you're looking for, I was just providing the best currently existing option for it.

A master of ambush combat it's not- but it makes a great lure for a gang and can ruin most solo frigates' day.

I just ran a search of dev posts to see if any of the devs ever mentioned q-ships. none have. that tells me our discussion here is worthless, because the devs aren't even interested .

Honestly, your post is the first time I've ever heard the term- at least by that name. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea has existed in the past under a different name.

I'm having a hard time seeing where your idea fits into EVE. I like the concept rather a lot. But by destroyer ganking and concern with newbs, we're almost certainly dealing with highsec. Concord is already as Q as Q can get. If they gank, they will die. They know this, and choose to do it anyway. Striking them back is completely irrelevant because they have already accepted their doom.

The procurer I posted is intended to bait roaming frigates in lowsec. In highsec, gankers tend to just ignore procurers because they have too much EHP to gank easily. You seem to be asking for two things; Ambush PVP and Highsec Gank Deterrent. Gank deterrent already exists- it's called the Procurer/Skiff or one of the new tanky industrials. Ambush PVP is a great idea, but I'm confused because it doesn't seem to be what you are after.

Honestly, your post is the first time I've ever heard the term- at least by that name. I wouldn't be surprised if the idea has existed in the past under a different name.

I'm having a hard time seeing where your idea fits into EVE. I like the concept rather a lot. But by destroyer ganking and concern with newbs, we're almost certainly dealing with highsec. Concord is already as Q as Q can get. If they gank, they will die. They know this, and choose to do it anyway. Striking them back is completely irrelevant because they have already accepted their doom.

(And mines like a Venture to keep the balance.)

I think the closest you could come in high-sec would be a ship capable of lying about its tank if scanned. Something that looks & scans like a Mackinaw, but tanks like a Skiff. (And mines like a Venture to keep the balance.) By itself, it would be worthless, but if you had a mining corp that deployed them on a regular basis, it would act as a deterrent. The idea being to throw an unexpected wrench in the "I need x # of cats to attack this target" equation.

I haven't mined in a year or so though, so it doesn't matter much to me. Back when there were jet-cans, something like that would have been a fun little ship to have...

Another thought... even though it could not carry that much, it would make surprise possible, if the ship when scanned could 'show' a fake cargo. It would be so funny to look like your carrying a few billion out more, just to find out that you are deadly to most pirates.

These could be sold on market or contracts as Q or FAUX versions of the ship in question.

Why not just offer these as retrofit options for existing hulls?

like an updated version of the 'window' or 'chaff' used today to fool palse radars. we even have 'active' repeaters that make a target seem bigger or different to radar

Q-ship conversions could be rigs that allow extra weapons mounts on existing hulls. They wouldn't show up on scans and would give improved firepower to the cargo ship but at the expense of cargo space being drastically cut due to the weapons systems taking the space.

I believe this is a core concept, given simplest explanation.
I would even expand this, to allow a rig slot for each slot type being expanded, so that you could opt for incredible defensive ability instead of just shooting above expectations.

That said, you are expanding rigs into the territory previously reserved for subsystems on T3's.
I have no idea how difficult this would be to code, suggesting it might be more practical for "canned" versions rather than this.

Everything wanting to be done here is actually doable by adding more T3 ships. I'd love to see T3 frigs, BCs, and a T3 indy. Subsystems have the ability to alter a ship entirely. Just make it so that different subsytems for the T3 indy don't change the ship model, and make one of its subsytems give it immunity to ship scans.

That Indy could be just a hauler, or a super miner, or a gas harvester, or it could be a combat ship in disguise with the EHP of a moderately tanked BC (thinking 30-50k ehp, depending on balance) and the DPS of a combat frig.

The gankers just don't know.

I like how you think.

So, like the current strategic cruisers are to regular cruisers, you are proposing a BC class equivalent.

Specifically, one that could include realistic potential for mining and hauling.

Given the probable cost as the balance point for this, I would say yes, great idea.
I think it can even match or exceed the yield of a maxxed out Hulk fairly, considering that it would probably have a billion ISK price tag to achieve this.

A mining ship capable of fighting, but at a cost prohibitive to those not certain of themselves, sounds to me like it could be balanced.

You know you can achieve all this with a bait ship and an escort fleet.

Q-ships exist in EVE. They are called put what you want in your slots. Ever heard of the Battle Badger? It's one of many great Q-ship designs.

What you are asking for is magic. Build your own Q-ships.

I have killed a few ships with a battle badger.
I have since learned that the hoarder makes a much better combat ship.
My corp mate often flys combat mining barges and they are great for provoking fights.
You can radically change most ships engagement envelopes with different fits.
You already have the tools to do what you want.

try a battle Bestower epic fun

After reading the dev blogs on just providing a new paint scheme for ships, I realized the core game program would require any actual 'q-ship' to havea different class name than the ship it is designed from.

This would defeat the entire concept of the q-ship because the prospective 'attacker/victim' could look on the overveiw or screen display and recognize he was approaching a warship in a bad disguise.

Someone earlier proposed using rigs to convert a miner or industrial to a q-ship. I think this is the way to go, now.

The 'combat rig' could provide a high slot, some capacitor value, and some shield bonus. The disadvantage would be the amount of ore hold or cargo hold the rig would fill.

EXAMPLE:
a 'small combat miner rig' could require 1500 m3 of ore hold. Thus, 3 could be put on a Venture mining frigate and leave very little ore hold for mining operation.
it would add a high slot for a small turret
it would add enough energy and enough shield so 3 of them would effectively double the Venture's power and shield
EACH rig would also add to the regeneration of the capacitor

thus, the refitted Venture would still display as a Venture on the overveiw and the screen, it would now sport 5 high slot (2 are the original mining laser slots), and have a decent shield tank to counter the DPS of the unknowing attacker.

After reading the dev blogs on just providing a new paint scheme for ships, I realized the core game program would require any actual 'q-ship' to havea different class name than the ship it is designed from.

This would defeat the entire concept of the q-ship because the prospective 'attacker/victim' could look on the overveiw or screen display and recognize he was approaching a warship in a bad disguise.

Someone earlier proposed using rigs to convert a miner or industrial to a q-ship. I think this is the way to go, now.

The 'combat rig' could provide a high slot, some capacitor value, and some shield bonus. The disadvantage would be the amount of ore hold or cargo hold the rig would fill.

EXAMPLE:
a 'small combat miner rig' could require 1500 m3 of ore hold. Thus, 3 could be put on a Venture mining frigate and leave very little ore hold for mining operation.
it would add a high slot for a small turret
it would add enough energy and enough shield so 3 of them would effectively double the Venture's power and shield
EACH rig would also add to the regeneration of the capacitor

thus, the refitted Venture would still display as a Venture on the overveiw and the screen, it would now sport 5 high slot (2 are the original mining laser slots), and have a decent shield tank to counter the DPS of the unknowing attacker.

[quote=Aalysia Valkeiper]

Still going to get splatted by one 'nado.

After reading the dev blogs on just providing a new paint scheme for ships, I realized the core game program would require any actual 'q-ship' to havea different class name than the ship it is designed from.

This would defeat the entire concept of the q-ship because the prospective 'attacker/victim' could look on the overveiw or screen display and recognize he was approaching a warship in a bad disguise.

Since the new painting schemes are now enacted, we should be seeing them soon enough.

The fact that they are presented in the market as totally different (and more expensive) ships says something.

Maybe a Q-Ship could be a POS Syphon Unit converted into a ship that could sneak around belts plinkering items from cans, barge holds and industrial holds and depots.

With every cycle of the Syphon there would be the possibility that the event would fail causing immediate aggro towards the Q-Syphon Ship.

This type of ship would have rigs that would reduce the chance of the internal system of the ship recognizing an intruder was present as well as needing a special high slot modules to effectively target the ship specific systems that would be necessary to counter in order to hack the ship.

Although the Q-Syphon Ship would need to have many new skills trained to fly it as it would be a T2 ship right out the gate any other pilot in New Eden would only have to train a set of skills not associated with modules to counter the Q-Syphon Ship which I would affectionately dub the "Troll" or Bodach in modern Scottish Gaelic.