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Veronica Felix
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 22:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
War deccing is broken, almost to a surreal extent. In high sec, small industrial corps are war decced repeatedly for no other purpose than to cause grief. The ward deccers--if looking at their killboards are any indication--are cowards, never attacking a low sec corp, or even the more potent high sec corps.
War dec after war dec after war dec. It has all become rather tiresome, even disheartening. My corp alone has endured a war dec almost every other week since the early summer.
Some--most, perhaps-- war deccing corps will issue war decs against multiple corps at once: XXX XXXX just issued war decs against 23 corps and alliances simultaneously. Why? For the lulz, and to generate a superficially more attractive resume, I imagine. Of course, all the corps that they are 'fighting' (do they ever leave major hubs?) are small industrial corps.
Some suggestions:
--No corp/alliance should be permitted to issue more than three concurrent war declarations.
--The aggressor must deposit into a CONCORD trust account enough isk to cover a war for a month of renewals. As it is now, a corp issues a war dec, and after a week, the war is usually allowed to lapse. Wars should not just lapse because the aggressor loses interest; the aggressor must either surrender with consequences, or be forced to pay repeatedly for a month for the continuance of the war.
--The 'alts' of the war deccing corporations should all be identified to the defenders. As it stands now, any single war deccer is accompanied by two neutral logistics alts who suddenly appear 80 kms away, with repping so over-powered that an Atron can destroy a Dominix.
--War dec fees are too low by a factor of ten. Only 50 million isk to dec an entire alliance for a week is nonsensical.
Hiring mercenaries is not an answer. Joining larger alliances is not the answer. HTFU is not the answer. High sec war deccing is broken, and it is used primarily to abuse, grief, and harass others.
Summary: High sec war deccing is broken. It is an instrument for griefers to constantly harass industrialists, miners, and missioners. Unable to survive the travails of low and null, they repeatedly war dec those least inclined to fight. War decs should have strict limits and significant consequences for the aggressors. |

James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8795
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 22:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
lol My EVE Videos |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9927
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 22:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
High sec wardecs are so easy to avoid, they are broken. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |

Victor Andall
Complexes and Abaddons
46
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
"Only my play style is correct. Any suggestions you give me are incorrect and unacceptable. I want CCP to change this to my desires even though I posted in the wrong forum"
There, OP, I fixed your summary. I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?
http://andallcombat.wordpress.com/current-tournament/ |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
2253
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
additional suggestions:
- starbases cannot be taken down during a wardec - alts of defenders are flagged as targets - station services including hangars defenders have assets in are flagged as targets and can be destroyed - corps can't be remade to shed decs, all defenders are flagged even if they drop corp - targets are marked on the ingame map for the aggressors - defenders have to pay for the dec when they lose
- when a dec is made, defenders are automatically unsubbed from eve and subbed into world of warcraft |

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2244
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:"Only my play style is correct. Any suggestions you give me are incorrect and unacceptable. I want CCP to change this to my desires even though I posted in the wrong forum"
Funny, I'll make sure to quote that when a griefer corp complains that it's too easy to get out of...
baltec1 wrote:High sec wardecs are so easy to avoid, they are broken.
... and there we go. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
958
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:lol
+1 Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1509
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
Veronica Felix wrote:War deccing is broken, almost to a surreal extent. In high sec, small industrial corps are war decced repeatedly for no other purpose than to cause grief. The ward deccers--if looking at their killboards are any indication--are cowards, never attacking a low sec corp, or even the more potent high sec corps.
War dec after war dec after war dec. It has all become rather tiresome, even disheartening. My corp alone has endured a war dec almost every other week since the early summer.
Some--most, perhaps-- war deccing corps will issue war decs against multiple corps at once: XXX XXXX just issued war decs against 23 corps and alliances simultaneously. Why? For the lulz, and to generate a superficially more attractive resume, I imagine. Of course, all the corps that they are 'fighting' (do they ever leave major hubs?) are small industrial corps.
Some suggestions:
--No corp/alliance should be permitted to issue more than three concurrent war declarations.
--The aggressor must deposit into a CONCORD trust account enough isk to cover a war for a month of renewals. As it is now, a corp issues a war dec, and after a week, the war is usually allowed to lapse. Wars should not just lapse because the aggressor loses interest; the aggressor must either surrender with consequences, or be forced to pay repeatedly for a month for the continuance of the war.
--The 'alts' of the war deccing corporations should all be identified to the defenders. As it stands now, any single war deccer is accompanied by two neutral logistics alts who suddenly appear 80 kms away, with repping so over-powered that an Atron can destroy a Dominix.
--War dec fees are too low by a factor of ten. Only 50 million isk to dec an entire alliance for a week is nonsensical.
Hiring mercenaries is not an answer. Joining larger alliances is not the answer. HTFU is not the answer. High sec war deccing is broken, and it is used primarily to abuse, grief, and harass others.
Summary: High sec war deccing is broken. It is an instrument for griefers to constantly harass industrialists, miners, and missioners. Unable to survive the travails of low and null, they repeatedly war dec those least inclined to fight. War decs should have strict limits and significant consequences for the aggressors. Well not entirely true. I currently have decced a WH corp so they can't escape to high sec to avoid their transgressions. That some lamers do exploit to get easy kills is unfortunate but not the only use of the war dec mechanic.
|

Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
958
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:additional suggestions:
- starbases cannot be taken down during a wardec - alts of defenders are flagged as targets - station services including hangars defenders have assets in are flagged as targets and can be destroyed - corps can't be remade to shed decs, all defenders are flagged even if they drop corp - targets are marked on the ingame map for the aggressors - defenders have to pay for the dec when they lose
- when a dec is made, defenders are automatically unsubbed from eve and subbed into world of warcraft
Or when a character drops Corp due to wardec the ceo should be able to add a deserter tag to the gutless, offending character so that future ceos can easily determine their worth.
op htfu etc.
Try ewar vs rr alts. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |

Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
1059
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
What an unusually insightful post. How can it be that no one who has felt this way has ever used a forum alt to express their feelings of frustration with the wardec mechanic before?
I myself also believe it is broken. It is far too easy for my targets to just drop corp and avoid the war altogether. I paid 50mil isk for a war, I should get to have my war. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
2254
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:What an unusually insightful post. How can it be that no one who has felt this way has ever used a forum alt to express their feelings of frustration with the wardec mechanic before?
I myself also believe it is broken. It is far too easy for my targets to just drop corp and avoid the war altogether. I paid 50mil isk for a war, I should get to have my war. especially as ccp described the wardec fee as 'paying for targets'
you know what? if someone drops corp you should be fully refunded. you may have wardecced an entire alliance just for the opportunity to shoot that one person, after all
i am so full of good ideas today |

Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
787
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
The problem isn't frivolous wardecs, it's frivolous corporations. And NPC corps. everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com |

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2245
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
If people really wanted to PvP against people who can actually shoot back they can just join FW for free. Better than free, in fact, because they can actually make money off all the LP.
So in a sense OP is right about one thing: Wardecs are the sole domain of griefers, because the real PvPers - those with the spine to fight people who can fight back - are either in FW or out fighting nullsec wars. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2183
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Firstly, wrong forum.
Secondly, it's pathetic how easy it is to get out of a wardec. Especially since the typical highsec corp has next to nothing in the form of assets to defend in the first place.
If anything, the cost is too high, since it costs a tiny percent of the price of a wardec to dissolve and reform a corp.
Thirdly, if a player corp doesn't wish to defend itself, it shouldn't exist in the first place. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |

Savnire Jacitu
O.T. Interstellar Mining Orginization
262
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
High sec greifing made possible for low payment of 50 mil
**** everyone dec everything (also awox) <corrupt> |

Ptraci
3 R Corporation Boarderline Cartel
1727
|
Posted - 2014.01.25 23:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Do you take cash out from an ATM Machine? Do you experience EVE through an LCD display? Do you suffer from RAS Syndrome?
High sec wardecs aren't broken, it's high sec in general that is broken. To say that high sec war dec mechanics are broken is redundant, since war dec mechanics are an attempted "fix" for high sec, to allow PvP somewhere where PvP is not allowed, in a game where PvP is the norm. Of course it's going to be a silly kludge.
For the rest of us in EVE we merely raise our eyebrows and say "what is this "war dec" you speak of? I expect everyone to shoot me in the face if they are not blue, and I only trust blues so far too.
Stop whining about a mechanic that's actually just a hack and HTFU. |

DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
88
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 00:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Where the **** have you been? |

Diska Eamod
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
20
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Victor Andall wrote:"Only my play style is correct. Any suggestions you give me are incorrect and unacceptable. I want CCP to change this to my desires even though I posted in the wrong forum"
There, OP, I fixed your summary.
Following this line of reasoning I propose that every corporation that declares a wardec should be denied access to all ships except mining vessels for a week, following the week of the war. In this way, do we ensure that all parties are equally forced into play styles that they do not wish to participate in. |

Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
94
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
100M/wk for Protection. Send ISK to Mario Putzo. |

Dior Rellik
NERFSQUAD
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
The only valid suggestion is man the f up and start recruiting PVE / Combat pilots. Either that or sit in stations until the deccers get bored.
Seriously though. All you indy bear corps need to have a combat wing, even if it mainly consists of pve chars... |

Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
19
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Every corporation should have a security division to deal with enemies. If you don't, then you're just asking for it. |

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
2256
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Diska Eamod wrote:Victor Andall wrote:"Only my play style is correct. Any suggestions you give me are incorrect and unacceptable. I want CCP to change this to my desires even though I posted in the wrong forum"
There, OP, I fixed your summary. Following this line of reasoning I propose that every corporation that declares a wardec should be denied access to all ships except mining vessels for a week, following the week of the war. In this way, do we ensure that all parties are equally forced into play styles that they do not wish to participate in. if a player formed or joined a corporation, then wardeccing is a playstyle they chose to participate in |

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
827
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
I wonder if there are bards in Eve.
Bards to sing the tales of valiant warriors who square off on the field of battle; songs of those who rise to the challenge of their rivals!
Or, you know, those who impotently declare war on corps that they know won't fight. Something tells me that the bards won't sing much about that at all.
RvB really has the right of it - permanently in a war worthy of song and drink. The tales of their bravery and fortitude will be sung for eons. Those that war-dec little indy corps? - not really worth singing about yea?
Three cheers for RvB!
Also, to the OP... part of being in a corp is being wardecced. No sense crying about it here. The bards don't care about your tragic lament - too many falsely dramatic undertones and way too much of a predictable plot progression. "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |

Marwen DeGaulle
Student Bodies Star Frontiers Community College
21
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
looks like you've solved whatever problem you had by dropping into an NPC corp. |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
976
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Logan Revelore wrote:Every corporation should have a security division to deal with enemies. If you don't, then you're just asking for it. Wars in eve being what they are, getting a security division is kinda ill advised since fighting back has no incentive. |

Marwen DeGaulle
Student Bodies Star Frontiers Community College
21
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Logan Revelore wrote:Every corporation should have a security division to deal with enemies. If you don't, then you're just asking for it. Wars in eve being what they are, getting a security division is kinda ill advised since fighting back has no incentive.
wrong |

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
977
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 01:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Marwen DeGaulle wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Logan Revelore wrote:Every corporation should have a security division to deal with enemies. If you don't, then you're just asking for it. Wars in eve being what they are, getting a security division is kinda ill advised since fighting back has no incentive. wrong You have some reasoning behind that? |

Dior Rellik
NERFSQUAD
4
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 02:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Marwen DeGaulle wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Logan Revelore wrote:Every corporation should have a security division to deal with enemies. If you don't, then you're just asking for it. Wars in eve being what they are, getting a security division is kinda ill advised since fighting back has no incentive. wrong You have some reasoning behind that?
Well we could always say that diplomacy is an option but for pure indy corp who cannot fight back, what else are they to do ? Sit in the station for a week or a month or more hoping it will go away ?
You need to be able to fight back or at least try. Then the greifers (Which most of the time just want newer/smaller corps to disband) know you wont be such push overs.
Plus your less likely to get ganked if you have combat chars hanging around during a mining session.
BTW. What's your reasoning for saying otherwise ? |

Rolstra
Moo's Mudpit
18
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 02:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
Near as I can tell it's not broken at all, Make 3 or 6 corps, put an alt with a few days of training as the CEO/Director of each corp, when a war Dec comes along drop from one corp and join another (For luls make the dec mutual before leaving). Then keep playing, this will put a ten minute break in your game play. If you have POS'es simply create each of the corps with the alt that has standings for anchoring POS'es, then all you do is un-anchor your POS'es, join the new corp and anchor it back up.
Can't see anything broken in that. Some group wastes 50mil and gets nothing, you avoid engaging in game content and keep playing, and the whole process repeats every week.
Yeah nothing broken here.
|

Tydeth Gilitae
Magewright Artificers
60
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 02:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Try ewar vs rr alts.
Actually, you can't just use ewar on them; that's only going to get you killed even faster.
By having the RR ships outside your corp while you're at war, or even in NPC corps, you force your enemy to perform one of the following:
1. Try to kill you anyway, which might not work with the healers on you. After all, that's their entire point, to prevent you from dying. 2. Just ewar or shoot at the RR, invoking Concord. You may now stop wasting ammo on this guy's ship and save it for his friends or any space assets. His pod does still count as a space asset. 3. Get one or more friends to gank/ewar the RR instead of himself. His friends get Concordoken, you lose healing, war target still lives and might turn the battle. 4. Get neutral/NPC-Corp RR himself, be they friends or alts, to try to get you to do #2 or 3. 5. Run away, unless you have warp jammer(s) of some flavor on him. 6. Stop shooting you and dock, if you for whatever reason engaged him near a station.
Point being, just using ewar on neutral/NPC RR is unwise. Encountering such must be handled tactically if you wish to succeed against it. The best counter to enemy RR is friends/alts of your own, so you can focus on your war.
Now for OP:
War Decs exist solely to allow aggressive corporations and alliances to engage other groups freely in PVP in High-sec. Whatever reason they choose to exercise that PVP is up to them. High-sec is not, never was, and shall never be safe. PVP is only discouraged by Concord by forcing loss on the attacker in the case of gank, but all that really did was turn ganking into a spreadsheet game; I've seen one used by a fleet to determine how many Catalysts it'd take to pop a certain mining ship before Concord showed up.
Quote:--No corp/alliance should be permitted to issue more than three concurrent war declarations. Each successive concurrent WarDec costs a lot more than the previous. I think it was 50m for war #1, 100m for #2, 200m for #3, and so on. At that point, it's not really isk-efficient to have a bazillion wars, which means there are goals in mind for the aggressor in those wars. Perhaps they're mercs, and other corps are footing the bills. Maybe the corp is targeting known out-of-alliance alt/holding corps, so the defenders can't hop to avoid a war on just one. Alternatively, the target corps have members with really expensive assets and the attackers want the goods.
Quote:--War dec fees are too low by a factor of ten. Only 50 million isk to dec an entire alliance for a week is nonsensical. It only costs 1.5 to 2.5m (somewhere in that range) isk to make a corp, and therefore to drop and remake the corp to dodge the war. This used to be declared an exploit, but CCP later overturned that ruling for some reason. In light of that being clear, 50m is a bit high for war, or perhaps the corp creation cost needs an extra 0 since WarDecs also serve as an isk sink, countering inflation in the game. Yeah, I think I'd prefer raising corp creation cost, to balance wardecs better, incentivise staying and fighting (it'd cost less to make a medal to offer to those who fight for you than to make new corp), and sink a bit more isk from the economy if drop/reform is still being used.
Regarding your rant on RR, I'll just point to my list above, about how to deal with enemy "neutral" RR. Mercs and/or larger corps/alliances actually are the answer, as numbers are important to EVE combat. True 1v1s are rare, as any aggressor would want to engage only when he knows he has a good chance of winning.
And others:
Quote:Or when a character drops Corp due to wardec the ceo should be able to add a deserter tag to the gutless, offending character so that future ceos can easily determine their worth.
I think we can use C&P forum for that; iirc desertion during war IRL is a crime, at least in the US. It might also be in other nations, and I can certainly see New Eden's empires not taking kindly to such, either.
It wouldn't be much different than the current use in warning of thieves, Awoxers, and the like.
Quote:- starbases cannot be taken down during a wardec - alts of defenders are flagged as targets - station services including hangars defenders have assets in are flagged as targets and can be destroyed - corps can't be remade to shed decs, all defenders are flagged even if they drop corp - targets are marked on the ingame map for the aggressors - defenders have to pay for the dec when they lose
Starbases: Actually, this I can go for. If they have assets, let them fight for them. That's already the case with POCOs, I believe. On the other hand, if you're deccing over the moon, them removing the thing frees that moon for your POS, without any structure shoot needed. Then again, you paid 50m+ to shoot, so you should get to shoot something.
Alts flagged as targets: If alts of attackers are also flagged in the war, so that all players in the war, regardless of which character they're on, may engage each other, it might be ok. It is probably best not to open this can of worms for either side, but if opened it should go both ways to give everyone risk.
Corps can't be remade to shed decs: Yes. I'm not sure why that wasn't coded in rather than overturned as a GM ruling in the first place.
Flagged if they drop corp: If this works both ways - where if any character on either side of the war drops, the opposing side (or maybe even both sides, the deserting traitor) get kill rights on him - I'd be cool with it.
Targets marked on map: No. Get your own intel; Locator agents exist for this.
Defenders pay dec fee if they lose: Surrender feature exists for this purpose. Just add the total wardec fees to your conditions when you Evemail offering to let them surrender to end the war, and don't accept surrender until they do it right. |
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