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T2 Hail Ammo a little too much?

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Aleis	Posted - 2006.04.12 03:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Aleis on 12/04/2006 03:34:57 Edited by: Aleis on 12/04/2006 03:29:45 I just got into use T2 guns and thought of maybe using this fancy new ammo High damage Auttoncannon ammo in T2 guns sounded nice when i paired it with my Claw. untill i actualy equiped some. Stats: Hail s Explosive: 12 Kenetic: 3 Range: -50% Tracking: .5% Cap recharge rate penalty: -10% Max Velocity Penalty: -20% At first i didn't think anything of it Sure -20% velocity is bad but i can handle that. That was until i actualy equiped the ammo. thats actualy a -20% to velocity PER GUN with this ammo equiped!! so add 3 guns on my claw and i'm starting out at -60% to my max velocity?! and this is for Autocannon setups?!! So i'm supposed to go into combat in a frigate witha close range setup, already with what amounts to being webbed? i couldn't even catch up to a cruiser if i wanted to and i was in an intercepter!. Maybe the Devs where being nice to the minmatar, i mean the penalty to my Velocity means i'm orbiting slow enough for my now Halved tracking speed i might actualy hit something :+/
xaioguai	Posted - 2006.04.12 03:35:00 - [2] Edited by: xaioguai on 12/04/2006 03:36:08 Now that kind of gets me thinking Does the velocity just add up those 20% together? or multply by 80% on each gun eg, is it 20%+20%+20%+20% = 80% or its (1-20%)^4=40.96% orginal speed will be funny to see a thrasher flying backward with 7 t2 autocannon fitted
Aleis	Posted - 2006.04.12 03:42:00 - [3] max velocity before ammo 668m/s with 3x T2 200mm with Hail s 342m/s so 342 / 668 = 51.2% So looking at a 49% reduction in velocity
Gierling	Posted - 2006.04.12 03:53:00 - [4] This is intentional. PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
Blanche Virgo	Posted - 2006.04.12 04:11:00 - [5] The fact that it's intentional doesn't mean that's it's too much of a penalty. They made some of the Tech II ammo uber...and others unusable in any situation. They should still have penalties, but not so severe. EvE > WoW
Tachy	Posted - 2006.04.12 06:41:00 - [6] Isn't it great that it has 3 penalties while the others have only 2? --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
ArtemisEntreri	Posted - 2006.04.12 06:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Tachy Isn't it great that it has 3 penalties while the others have only 2? no the other ones have a bonus to cap use I believe, and projectiles barely use any cap, this is intential every step fo the way
Rift lance	Posted - 2006.04.12 07:00:00 - [8] Originally by: xaioguai will be funny to see a thrasher flying backward with 7 t2 autocannon fitted LMFAO I do not reprecent my corps opinion, etc etc.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.12 07:01:00 - [9] wait till you see the rockets... Win a Cerberus!! sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:\|. - Teblin Who pwned who? ~kieron
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.04.12 07:19:00 - [10] well it was orgianly buged and gave a boucs to cap recharge then they nerfed it to all hell and back makeing it worthless really =\

Litus Arowar	Posted - 2006.04.12 07:36:00 - [11] similarly, amarr pulse users have these two options: scorch: 1.5x range, 0.75x tracking conflagration: 0.5x range, 0.5x tracking, 1.25x cap use yes they're not as severe as speed or cap nerfs, but the point is, why does the short range ammo get screwed while the long range ammo is a "must use"? for beam users: aurora: 2x range, 0.25x tracking gleam: 0.5x range, 0.75x shields, 0.75x tracking, 1.05x signature once again the short range has more penalties (by number) though I really don't mind the penalties on either beam crystal nearly as much as the one on conflagration...
Omatje	Posted - 2006.04.12 08:31:00 - [12] Edited by: Omatje on 12/04/2006 08:34:31 I don't know, but the penalties on both long range artillery ammo are very bad as well. Both have a massive tracking penalty which is very bad on the crapiest tracking guns in game. Quake: lots of dammage -forget your cap/flying/tracking Tremor: lots of range -forget tracking (tracking penalty is something like: (after skills) - from 0.0133 to 0.0033 after loading this ammo (yes your 1400II's after skills will track worse then quad 3500mm's even before skills)
Ithildin	Posted - 2006.04.12 08:39:00 - [13] The short ranged ammo does a lot more damage (60 for large short range turret ammo), while the long ranged ammo (for short ranged turrets) possition themselves at Plutonium, EMP, or Gamma grade damage (44 for large crystals). All in all, the whole T2 ammo is a complete mess. Some ammo, like the Spike-ish ammo, is a must and super good - effectively making T1 fittings completely obsolete in fleet battles (and that includes super-expensive and super-violent officer turrets - THEY'R OBSOLETE). The shorter ranged ammo is a bit better balanced, as long as you consider only T2 turrets and preferably blasters, that is. All this when they could've done T2 ammo more interesting. Consider if they changed projectile ammo to be Exp/kin only, and then gave them an ammo that was as damaging as multispectral and antimatter. These are just examples meant to illustrate: Projectile ammo: ammo that really lets you choose damage type Projectile ammo: added target painting effect Laser ammo: cap neutralization effect Blaster ammo: webbification effect Missile effect: sensor resolution penalty (note that lock range or ECM is too powerful due to missile spam!) All of them should be scaled by damage modifier, taking at least one damage mod into account. That said, the short-ranged long-range ammo is actually quite fine, if perhaps the base damage needs to be notched down from Plutonium to Uranium (large: 44 -> 40). Arkanor > Gallente missileboat might be cool. KilROCK > Pod yourself till you got no skills left
Valora	Posted - 2006.04.12 09:20:00 - [14] I love hail - sure its not really suited for frigs (barrage claw owns you). Try it on a vagabond or tempest and let someone try and armour tank you...
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.04.12 10:15:00 - [15] Edited by: LUKEC on 12/04/2006 10:15:42 load hail = blasterboat. However tempest with hail will still run guns longer than thron with blasters and void. T2 hi damage ammo is for delicate situations only. Die, die, die.
smallgreenblur	Posted - 2006.04.12 10:34:00 - [16] Hail does absolutely awsome damage providing that 1) you don't need to move anywhere in a hurry and 2) you don't need your cap for anything. sgb
Copine Callmeknau	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:04:00 - [17] Hail M is sexified on my Cyclone ------- With five million sheep in this army I seem to be the only one fit to command
Hoshi	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:18:00 - [18] Now try to fit that ammo into a destoryer. Javelin rockets on a flycatcher, speed before loading guns 442m/s, after loading 92m/s... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lofty29	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Gierling This is intentional. No it isnt, the penalties were never meant to stack and the devs have said they're looking into fixing it. --------------------------- Originally by: Oveur I see boobies! \o/
babylonstew	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:48:00 - [20] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Gierling This is intentional. No it isnt, the penalties were never meant to stack and the devs have said they're looking into fixing it. could you link where that was stated please? becos if it is the case, im really looking forward to actually using tech 2 rockets and lights finally also,the short range rail ammo is totally useless on shield tanking ships ffs eagle with like 60% shield loss ftl

Yojiritsu	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:52:00 - [21] I think the whole T2 ammo was handled wrongly. It should have been more inline with the faction ammo. Especially teh long range beam/rail/arty ammo is just nuts. It totally outclasses T1 guns by such a margin that you neednt even bother to bring your ship since you can't even shoot back. I say back to the drawing board for tech2 ammo.
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:55:00 - [22] Surely you just dont bother equipping it in your guns until you are in range?
lofty29	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:56:00 - [23] Originally by: babylonstew Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Gierling This is intentional. No it isnt, the penalties were never meant to stack and the devs have said they're looking into fixing it. could you link where that was stated please? becos if it is the case, im really looking forward to actually using tech 2 rockets and lights finally also,the short range rail ammo is totally useless on shield tanking ships ffs eagle with like 60% shield loss ftl I cant remember where it was stated, but I beleive it was said that the penulties where only supposed to apply once. And yeah, shield bonus's are a bit harsh for railguns, it lets the enyo get off scott free --------------------------- Originally by: Oveur I see boobies! \o/
smallgreenblur	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:56:00 - [24] With t2 ammo it seems to be 'What are the strengths of this ship?' 'Ok how can we nerf them?' I'd be happy with some penalties but something less than the current, and also more balanced (eg precision cruise for ravens is currently a one volley pwn all small ships). Anyway i too have heard noises about upcoming changes, so lets just wait and see. sgb
babylonstew	Posted - 2006.04.12 11:58:00 - [25] exactly, the rail ammo penalises the eagle/harpy while the gal ships do get away much better and no, this aint a caldari whine so there
Friagabi	Posted - 2006.04.12 12:00:00 - [26] Originally by: xaioguai Edited by: xaioguai on 12/04/2006 03:36:08 will be funny to see a thrasher flying backward with 7 t2 autocannon fitted Yeah, about 70-80m/s maxspeed with Quake S if I remember right, but hey, it sure warps fast and ship natural bonus with lvl5 destroyer almost negotiates tracking penalty of ammo. I would not fit either Quake or Hail to any ship that cant tank.
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.04.12 12:23:00 - [27] Originally by: babylonstew exactly, the rail ammo penalises the eagle/harpy while the gal ships do get away much better and no, this aint a caldari whine so there Exept that harpy can shoot spike like 90km, enyo only 40-50. Look at the ammo this way: spike = caldari ammo, javelin = gallente Die, die, die.
Vito Sarpati	Posted - 2006.04.12 13:17:00 - [28] hail ammo sucks? for the ones at the wrong end maybe
Aleis	Posted - 2006.04.12 18:58:00 - [29] I really ment to compair just he Hail Small ammo for frigates, ships whose only defence is speed and you end up with some like a -60% velocity penalty for just three guns. Sorry but i prefer not ot go into combat prewebbed. And the idea of swapping ammo? You must be Amarr, because try waiting 10 sec. in frigate combat with out shooting.
Akrasia	Posted - 2006.04.13 06:54:00 - [30] I always assumed that the high damage short range gun ammo was for taking out targets one class size up. if you think of it that way, the penalties aren't nearly as crippling. The pulse/blaster/auto long range ammo is just a good all around amunition type that gives the ship more tactical flexibility at a small penalty to damage over tech 1 high damage ammo. The sniper ammo types fill one role very well, but have substantial weakness outside of that role. The damage long range ammo can be very crippling but might be useful still when taking out larger ships. I'm not sure if these were the intended uses, but i've used most ammo types fruitfully at least in certain roles.

Wizie	Posted - 2006.04.13 07:50:00 - [31] The real question is .. Why does minmatar ammo get 3 penalties and Amarr/Gallente ammo only get 2.
Wizie	Posted - 2006.04.13 14:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Wizie The real question is .. Why does minmatar ammo get 3 penalties and Amarr/Gallente ammo only get 2. I agree. That is the real question.
George Petsch	Posted - 2006.04.13 15:57:00 - [33] Originally by: Wizie Originally by: Wizie The real question is .. Why does minmatar ammo get 3 penalties and Amarr/Gallente ammo only get 2. I agree. That is the real question. Wrong char ftw But to answer your question: the minnies are slaves, they always get the short end of the stick My Blog http://fourthfloor.wordpress.com/
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.04.13 15:59:00 - [34] Originally by: Aleis And the idea of swapping ammo? You must be Amarr, because try waiting 10 sec. in frigate combat with out shooting. Nah, I'm Minni, I just dont like flying Frigs. :P
zoturi	Posted - 2006.04.13 16:24:00 - [35] Originally by: Wizie Originally by: Wizie The real question is .. Why does minmatar ammo get 3 penalties and Amarr/Gallente ammo only get 2. I agree. That is the real question. owned
ElCoCo	Posted - 2006.04.13 17:16:00 - [36] Originally by: zoturi Originally by: Wizie Originally by: Wizie The real question is .. Why does minmatar ammo get 3 penalties and Amarr/Gallente ammo only get 2. I agree. That is the real question. owned haha you nublet
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2006.04.13 18:08:00 - [37] You could try waiting to load the t2 ammo into the guns until you are orbiting. Its similar to percision missiles, ya dont fly around with percision loaded all the time. Yes, 10 seconds is long to wait, and if your in an inty fight maybe not a good idea, but if your tackling why not? _______________________________________________ Deadspace For Dead space! Originally by: Oveur To the nerfmobile!
smallgreenblur	Posted - 2006.04.13 18:28:00 - [38] I have a habit of flying with maybe one or two guns loaded with hail and the rest with barrage or emp, then when you are at range you can make the decision to change 2 or 3 more guns to hail or not ( i don't change all because i like doign emp damage and also because i like my cap not to die instantly :( ) sgb
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 18:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Gierling This is intentional. This is why the current T2 amo model is bad. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Wizie	Posted - 2006.04.13 19:15:00 - [40] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: zoturi Originally by: Wizie Originally by: Wizie The real question is .. Why does minmatar ammo get 3 penalties and Amarr/Gallente ammo only get 2. I agree. That is the real question. owned haha you nublet I am a nublet that I will accept :( But my non edited was actually a lame bump attempt and not an altbump attempt. Tried to induce some humor by bumping it with myself quoting myself... although I am deadly serious about my hail ammo sucking horse****

Vanye	Posted - 2006.04.13 19:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Wizie The real question is .. Why does minmatar ammo get 3 penalties and Amarr/Gallente ammo only get 2. Because it does 3 different damage types. Oh, wait...
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2006.04.13 19:45:00 - [42] Originally by: Tachy Isn't it great that it has 3 penalties while the others have only 2? Gleam has 3 too, Sig radius, Shield hps, and tracking. Javelin ammo has 4 penalties, velocity, cap use, shield hp, and tracking. _______________________________________________ Deadspace For Dead space! Originally by: Oveur To the nerfmobile!
Wizie	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Foomanshoe Originally by: Tachy Isn't it great that it has 3 penalties while the others have only 2? Gleam has 3 too, Sig radius, Shield hps, and tracking. Javelin ammo has 4 penalties, velocity, cap use, shield hp, and tracking. We are speaking about turret ammo atm... Gleam has 3 penalties as does Quake L However Gleam and Quake are Beam/Howie ammo. --------------------------- What about autocannons and pulse lasers? Hail has 3, Conflagaration has 2. Hail also loses its MIXED dmg crap that people whine about.. it only does 2 dmg types.. just like every other ammo.


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