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Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:47:00 -
[61] - Quote
so then...... the problem as u ppl are saying is bandwith b/w servers. but srsly how much data actualy needs to be transfered?? ONE person going from one server to another (eg jumping) is maybe few kb's..... wtf is 10 Gbps for? |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
211
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:51:00 -
[62] - Quote
Ok.. OP, i'm sorry but here we go... *looks at you with his are you stupid face*
Time to explain something...
TQ as of a few years ago, is one of the 500 largest super computers in the world. Think about that a min and let that sink in. TQ has more processing power then nearly every computer on the planet. Let me say that one more time so it sinks in. As of a few years ago, TQ is rated as one of the 500 largest super computers on the planet.
TQ is many computers networked together to be a large computer that distributes the work between all the computers within its structure. This is then connected to the internet. TQ is by definition a could computing system.
Now, here is why adding more hardware will not work. This has been said many times, several by me, and I might be old in eve, but I hate repeating myself, so i'm going to say this one more time...
EvE's issue is not hardware, its software. When eve was being made in the early 2000's the big trend in computing was for more GHZ! They were predicting 10 GHZ processors by 2010 when EvE was released in 2003. For this reason, the coding of EvE was written for single core processors, with the idea that the GHZ would go up in the future. But there was a problem. CPU makers ran into issues when they tried to get more GHZ out of the CPU's. So to fix this, they decided to add a second core to the cpu, in essence doubling power without increasing GHZ. The first dual core came out in like 07 I think, so four years after eve was made. Once this was done, the new trend in computing went from more GHZ to more cores!.
Eve is made for a single core processor. What this means is it can not scale more then a single core very well, easily, or at all. In other words, if there is heavy load the software can not move some of the lode to another core to help it deal with the load. It just can't. That is where the lag in eve comes from. In a fleet fight, it could me happening on a node with 30 cores (server computers using Xeon or AMD server processors have a lot of cores) but the code for the fight, each system, is limited to a single core. So when that one core hits its max load, it chokes. As it has no way to go 'oooh i'm using a lot of power, but hey the 29th core has nothing on it, i'll move some of this there' which is what current software does.
Its like this... you have a Pinto, which most people will tell you is a POS car. You take it for a drive on this brand new highway. This road is the smoothest, straightest, most aerodynamic, less friction road ever made. And you want to floor it and expect your care to drive like a Maserati... but it can't, why? BECAUSE ITS A ******* PINTO!
Adding more computers will not help. Adding servers over the cloud, or internet, will not work as now instead of all your servers in a single network, you have them split over multiple networks, this would cause lag, and if a ddos hit one of your link between servers you could lose 1/2 or 1/3 of all TQ services.
The only way to fix eve, is to remove, kill, and rewrite the only single core code and make it able to use multi cores. Which is what CCP is slowing doing with things like crime watch, brain in a box, etc.
When people complain about a small seeming fix that appears to do nothing, they forget that each 'fix' is prolly a piece of old single core code that has now been changed to use multiple cores. Each small change, be it graphics, or ship changes, that comes out of single core and goes to multi core, will give TQ a huge performance boost.
So in closing, use ******* google and look up what the damn cloud actually is, because your idea, if you have not researched what TQ is and what the actually problem is, is a stupid one. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
211
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:57:00 -
[63] - Quote
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:so then...... the problem as u ppl are saying is bandwith b/w servers. but srsly how much data actualy needs to be transfered?? ONE person going from one server to another (eg jumping) is maybe few kb's..... wtf is 10 Gbps for?
its not a few kb. its more then that, as each time you jump the server makes a query to the DB server asking for all yoru info, everything. To which is sent back. You don't have your own dedicated DB, you have a few that are used by everyone. So its not just you jumping, but every jump, ever made, every dock, undock, cyno, everything quires the DB. So you have MB or even GB of data transferring back and forth all day, everyday. you add more lines or slipt stuff up it will cause bottle necks and slow things down. Because, now your asking to hit a server maybe a block away, in a fleet fight, there are thousands and DB quires every few seconds. To see where your ship and stuff and drops are. So Think of it like this, right now everyone in your house can turn a faucet and that tells your house/cities water system to send you water. So now you split your house into 7 different rooms, across a longer area, but you still get the same amount of water to your house. If everyone turns on the faucet at once it will take longer to get the water, and less amounts due to distance. now add more houses in the same setup feeding off you water. It will get slower and slower. |
Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 18:59:00 -
[64] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Aih-Li Tahn wrote:so then...... the problem as u ppl are saying is bandwith b/w servers. but srsly how much data actualy needs to be transfered?? ONE person going from one server to another (eg jumping) is maybe few kb's..... wtf is 10 Gbps for? its not a few kb. its more then that, as each time you jump the server makes a query to the DB server asking for all yoru info, everything. To which is sent back. You don't have your own dedicated DB, you have a few that are used by everyone. So its not just you jumping, but every jump, ever made, every dock, undock, cyno, everything quires the DB. So you have MB or even GB of data transferring back and forth all day, everyday. you add more lines or slipt stuff up it will cause bottle necks and slow things down. Because, now your asking to hit a server maybe a block away, in a fleet fight, there are thousands and DB quires every few seconds. To see where your ship and stuff and drops are. So Think of it like this, right now everyone in your house can turn a faucet and that tells your house/cities water system to send you water. So now you split your house into 7 different rooms, across a longer area, but you still get the same amount of water to your house. If everyone turns on the faucet at once it will take longer to get the water, and less amounts due to distance. now add more houses in the same setup feeding off you water. It will get slower and slower. distributed databases exist, right? in ur scenario its like u use more utility companies for more water |
Serene Repose
Saanen Freight Service
984
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:04:00 -
[65] - Quote
DA REAPER!! YOU de MAN!! Thank you so much for taking the time to type all that out. Thank-you thank-you thank-you! I actually understood it! I owe you...but you can't haz my stuff.
*saunters away feeling a whole lot smarter...but in truth, just better informed* I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility toward every form of tyranny over the mind of man.-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19826
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:so then...... the problem as u ppl are saying is bandwith b/w servers. but srsly how much data actualy needs to be transfered?? ONE person going from one server to another (eg jumping) is maybe few kb's..... wtf is 10 Gbps for? Yeah, seeGǪ this is where you start making claims about stuff you don't know anything about. Ok, GǣstartGǥ may be the wrong word, but stillGǪ And no, bandwidth is just half of it. Latency is the big killer.
You're trying to apply a solution for asynchronous loose-latency storage to a problem that requires real-time no-latency processing (and no-latency storage). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2602
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tippia wrote:You're trying to apply a solution for asynchronous loose-latency storage to a problem that requires real-time no-latency processing (and no-latency storage). then backup the mainframe's auxiliary processing with a lossless digital hardwire duh this ain't rocket science |
Notorious Fellon
Republic University Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
OP: you have just barely enough knowledge to be dangerous, but not enough to understand what you are proposing.
"The Cloud" is not a place of magic that suddenly causes a single threaded app to become distributed. Nor does it ensure faster DB queries, nor does it ensure enough bandwidth is available for inevitable surges in load. The list goes on and on.
"The Cloud" is more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. |
Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:14:00 -
[69] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Tippia wrote:You're trying to apply a solution for asynchronous loose-latency storage to a problem that requires real-time no-latency processing (and no-latency storage). then backup the mainframe's auxiliary processing with a lossless digital hardwire duh this ain't rocket science wtf? i think some of u are using wierd terms just to confuse me |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
10608
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:16:00 -
[70] - Quote
For years we campaign to make CCP let us turn off clouds....
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
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Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
609
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Let's see. I have a server where I park my domain. If, using a serverside OS like uh...Windows, I then allow people to upload files of their own (you know, like pictures of their cat) into their own designated folders that can then be addressed using a good old URL, that's a "cloud" then, right? Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Winterblink
The Scope Gallente Federation
116
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:19:00 -
[72] - Quote
OP says the cloud will help thwart DDOSing. By post #4 OP admits that the cloud does not make you DDOS-proof.
I think we're done here.
warp drive active |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
216
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:19:00 -
[73] - Quote
Yea I can't take this thread anymore... seriously op, read what I wrote, you will understand what the real issues is with TQ, and why your idea is horrible.
My brain can not process this anymore... i'm gonna have an aneurism. |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2603
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:21:00 -
[74] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:My brain can not process this anymore sync it to the cloud |
Soshala Garemoko
Moar Tears Industrial Consortium Ltd.
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:25:00 -
[75] - Quote
look OP if you dont need to see the clouds because ur computer is trash CCP has given to you to turn them off in settings |
Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Soshala Garemoko wrote:look OP if you dont need to see the clouds because ur computer is trash CCP has given to you to turn them off in settings not the cloud im talkin about dipshit read the thread |
masternerdguy
State Protectorate Caldari State
1447
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:29:00 -
[77] - Quote
Soshala Garemoko wrote:look OP if you dont need to see the clouds because ur computer is trash CCP has given to you to turn them off in settings
This thread delivers Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Soshala Garemoko
Moar Tears Industrial Consortium Ltd.
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:29:00 -
[78] - Quote
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:Soshala Garemoko wrote:look OP if you dont need to see the clouds because ur computer is trash CCP has given to you to turn them off in settings not the cloud im talkin about dipshit read the thread
i did read ass the OP wanted to know why Not to use the clouds in game |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
609
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
Can we run with DX 11 yet? Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19828
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:41:00 -
[80] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Can we run with DX 11 yet? No, it's far too sharp. Just take your time and walk with it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
10609
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:44:00 -
[81] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Can we run with DX 11 yet? No, it's far too sharp. Just take your time and walk with it.
I hate that you beat me to this. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Darth Skorpius
Aideron Robotics
161
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 19:47:00 -
[82] - Quote
I have a better idea. Lets run Tranquility on the Titan Supercomputer and then we can have 10k vs 10k battles with no TiDi Follow my Adventures in New Eden! http://www.skorpiuschronicles.com/
Wellington NZ Player Gathering https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2810012 |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10261
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:04:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'm sure CCP could viably move the entire TQ infrastructure to AWS or some other cloud service
I'm sure that'd also result in subscription prices doubling
Oh and I'm also sure that it wouldn't be of any benefit at all Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
1046
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:06:00 -
[84] - Quote
The Cloud is a hacker's wet dream come true. All that information, being stored together in fewer places rather than on millions and millions of personal hard drives, would make them tastier places to attempt to hack than attacking people individually. You better hope your cloud service isn't lazy about security, or have people they can really, really trust. And that's not even taking into consideration what Governments would love to do with all that Cloud information. |
Maxxor Brutor
Imperial Collective
30
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:09:00 -
[85] - Quote
I'm not sure CCP has enough multimedia in their MMX for the cloud.
|
Winterblink
The Scope Gallente Federation
116
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:09:00 -
[86] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:The Cloud is a hacker's wet dream come true. All that information, being stored together in fewer places rather than on millions and millions of personal hard drives, would make them tastier places to attempt to hack than attacking people individually. You better hope your cloud service isn't lazy about security, or have people they can really, really trust. And that's not even taking into consideration what Governments would love to do with all that Cloud information. As a preemptive strike against anyone claiming that governments wouldn't be interested in what goes on in an MMO, I present the following:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/12/09/new-snowden-leak-reveals-the-nsa-planted-agents-inside-world-of-warcraft/
warp drive active |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2602
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:16:00 -
[87] - Quote
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:distributed databases exist, right? in ur scenario its like u use more utility companies for more water OK, I'm calling it now, you are just trolling. You've literlly just skipped past the post explaining exactly why what you are stating is impossible and just carried on commenting to the next post. Why don't you go back and reread this post, then understand that you have no clue what you are talking about and request a thread closure. What you are asking for is impossible. The end. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER CODE.
94
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:26:00 -
[88] - Quote
The OP reminded me of this guy |
Bagehi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
253
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:27:00 -
[89] - Quote
"The Cloud" is a buzzword for storing files on an internet server rather than (or as well as) storing them locally.
Cloud computing usually use hardware designed for storing and sharing data. Eve needs hardware designed for heavy computations. To see what this means, the most powerful cloud server CPU that Amazon runs is the 2.8 GHz Intel Xeon E5-2680v2. The slowest nodes in Eve are running on 3.3 GHz Xeon processors (I think those are Sandy Bridge?). There are some nodes on newer, faster hardware, such as Jita. Then there are the reinforced nodes running are top shelf Xeons which are overclocked to speeds that CCP hardware engineers call "fast" with a wink and a nudge. Per-core processing power on Tranquility is dramatically faster than the best Amazon offers.
Eve's physics calculations cannot be spread to multiple cores, let alone to multiple processors currently (latency among other things), so you are limited to the processing power of a core on the processor the node is being hosted on. So, in short, Eve on the best hardware Amazon sells would fall dramatically short of the performance we are currently getting from the Eve server. It is a matter of performance or quantity. Eve constantly pushes some of the fastest, most powerful processors available on the market to the limit.
As for DDOS... Amazon's method for dealing with a DDOS is distributed services. So, assuming we'd be okay with the degraded performance of Amazon's cloud service, what would happen each time someone hit the Eve cluster with a DDOS is the server would start up on another server at the last mirror. So, let's say it mirrors every 10 minutes (I haven't the foggiest clue how often it mirrors, but it will be measured in minutes), if a fight happens and the cluster dumps, you would be able to rewind time for Eve up to 10 minutes. This is acceptable for websites, horrible for a MMO. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
217
|
Posted - 2014.03.05 20:43:00 -
[90] - Quote
Darth Skorpius wrote:I have a better idea. Lets run Tranquility on the Titan Supercomputer and then we can have 10k vs 10k battles with no TiDi
Clearly you have not read the thread, or you would see my post about why this will not help either. And TQ is already a supercomputer. |
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