My "ugh" was for the needless complexity and length of the article.

I just have better things to do than trying to parse and understand with exactitude all that this implies (pretty much happens with every Dev Blog the past few years IMHO).

Obfuscation through overwhelming abundance of information, most indeed.

Currently you can reprocess at a perfect 100% rate uniformly across New Eden, regardless of system or station.

It's almost as if CCP wasn't playing their own game. I pretty much stopped reading after the justification:



Except, you know, and stations under 35% which you couldn't get perfect back even if you trains everything to 5 *and* had the best implant.

Which is to say, most nullsec outposts. You pretty much *need* that minmatar station so you have to build your infrastructure around this exact sort of thing.

But who needs facts. I just feel bad for the logistics folks, since they'll have to be jumping even more things around to compensate.

I'd just like to point out that Minmatat Refinery Outposts in Null Sec don't get a 50% Base Yield. They get 35%

I do not understand philosophy behind new ore compression, there is no change in tab except +30% minerals (mentioned boost). That means that it is better to carry minerals from Arkonor instead Compressed Arkonor, and no ore ever get close to 425mm Railgun with compression ratio 1:28.5 - Veldspar is at 1:16.56, Spodumain 1:5.53, Dark Ochre 1:1.64. Since no corporation is able to mine 3.5B trit for titan alone, this means huge nerf for mineral transportation. Or is there anything I missed?

I do not understand philosophy behind new ore compression, there is no change in tab except +30% minerals (mentioned boost). That means that it is better to carry minerals from Arkonor instead Compressed Arkonor, and no ore ever get close to 425mm Railgun with compression ratio 1:28.5 - Veldspar is at 1:16.56, Spodumain 1:5.53, Dark Ochre 1:1.64. Since no corporation is able to mine 3.5B trit for titan alone, this means huge nerf for mineral transportation. Or is there anything I missed?

It's almost as if CCP wasn't playing their own game. I pretty much stopped reading after the justification:



Except, you know, and stations under 35% which you couldn't get perfect back even if you trains everything to 5 *and* had the best implant.

Which is to say, most nullsec outposts. You pretty much *need* that minmatar station so you have to build your infrastructure around this exact sort of thing.

But who needs facts. I just feel bad for the logistics folks, since they'll have to be jumping even more things around to compensate.

Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.

Blog has been updated with new compressed ore volumes, and fixed typo with outpost reprocessing values on TQ.

Ok so we need
[...]
In order to get 2.8% LESS minerals?
massive timesink....

Looks to be a bit of a run on the RX-80X markets as a result of this announcement.

Those are about to get a lot more demand.

Now I understand CCP's stated objective of making reprocessing a specialised field with specialised skills. However, at current skill training times it will take over a year for a single character to get even close to a point where reprocessing is similar to what it is now.

Am I reading things right... say if people were to compress ore before the expansion and wait for summer that it would refine into more minerals? (free minerals)

why instant compressing i have the felling the pos module should need a fair amount of time
and the rorqual should be the choice if you want fast compression

I don't like the change with the compression being immediate, time and a fuel should still be involved with compression. As of just now to compress 250 blocks of ice with a 8 PE BPO is 2 hours and 44 minutes and about 3 hours and 40 minutes with a unresearch BPO and *not at home so can't see how much heavy water used*. Why not make it so the Rorq can compress faster then this new PoS mod? Like the Rorq could compress 250 blocks of ice in an 2 hours and the PoS Mod take 4 hours. Plus this way you could make an Industrial Core II that makes the compress even faster for the Rorq so that 250 blocks of ice only take an hour and 30 minutes, this would give people a reason to buy and use Rorqs. Plus why did you guys make an PoS mod for compression and not make the Orca into a mini Rorq? I mean the model of the Orca looks like it would be easy todo.

why instant compressing i have the felling the pos module should need a fair amount of time
and the rorqual should be the choice if you want fast compression

seems like the price of Caps and super caps going to go up a **** ton. if you can only get 86% mierals back from reprocessing. thats a message isk loss compared to compressing atm

The following sheets may be of interest.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mZSNGLaxi1A-Q818nApcJ2kNJOfnJmhcAcYn-mulzEU/edit?usp=sharing


(Yes, compression is taking a hit. Best you'll manage is between 2000 and 2400 units of minerals per M3)

I am upset by this change. Nothing in these changes benefit the hi sec player. I enjoy playing in hi sec and already have maxed all resource processing & production tree skills. I worked hard grinding out station standings and feel I earned the 100% refine. Now I have to lose a mission running implant and get a resource processing implant just to fall short of perfect refine. I feel cheated by CCP yet again.

I am upset by this change. Nothing in these changes benefit the hi sec player. I enjoy playing in hi sec and already have maxed all resource processing & production tree skills. I worked hard grinding out station standings and feel I earned the 100% refine. Now I have to lose a mission running implant and get a resource processing implant just to fall short of perfect refine. I feel cheated by CCP yet again.

My "ugh" was for the needless complexity and length of the article.

I just have better things to do than trying to parse and understand with exactitude all that this implies (pretty much happens with every Dev Blog the past few years IMHO).

Obfuscation through overwhelming abundance of information, most indeed.

That said, the statistician in me doesn't like the the idea of something like 86.8% (perfect station, perfect skills, perfect implants) being the new "100%".

OK could someone confirm please as my maths aint so great,

Currently I have refining to V and refinery efficiency to IV which means if I have say Veldspar trained to IV I currently get 108.9% (or perfect refine) at a 50% station with standings of 6.67

After the nerf I will only get 69.8% of the minerals back that I refine in the same station, which is actually about 20% LESS than if I had Refining, Efficiency and Ore Skill at zero right now..

I donGÇÖt think an implant should be a necessity for getting (not even perfect) refine, I think that if anything if I have Refining, Efficiency and Ore Skill at V I should get perfect refine, after all I cannot train them any more than that.

Bear in mind, the quantities of minerals in Ores have been increased by around 38%. It balances out at full skill + implant.

This is complete horse-crap... Not enough bugs in EveO to concentrate on, they need to cater to EVEN MORE nullie whining and give them yet another advantage.

Hey, CCP: just eliminate high-sec altogether. Be done with it, and quit screwing around. This latest nerf is just expletive deleted rediculous.

Can someone answer this question? I see that asteroids are getting a 38.1% buff. Does that mean, at 100% refining efficiency, I will end up with 38.1% more minerals than I currently get?

Can someone answer this question? I see that asteroids are getting a 38.1% buff. Does that mean, at 100% refining efficiency, I will end up with 38.1% more minerals than I currently get?

I did note the increase in yield, all that will do is fill the hold of your mining ships faster wouldn't it?

but even if I have compressed ore, I still have to refine it donGÇÖt I

I did note the increase in yield, all that will do is fill the hold of your mining ships faster wouldn't it?

you didn't read it then.

It's an increased yield on /refining/.

So that 72%? it's equal to the 100% you were getting before.

Sorry Steve, but doesn't this image show a refine of 72.4% for all at V skills - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65852/1/Reprocessingrates.png the yield increase is what you get per cycle when mining isn't it?

I get 0.07% less, but yes. You're pretty much there. Looks like it's a way to make those spec skills have actual value, or a way to bring highsec to the same needs as null, since I had to train these all to 5 long ago.

Edit: My calculations included the +4% implant as well.

The ore processing skills already had value in that lvl 4 is needed to use T2 mining crystals. Many of the comments CCP has made in the blog regarding skill names, perfect refine, and skill requirements are illogical and/or inaccurate. Refining isn't the same as reprocessing or recycling. Don't be surprised if we see a dumbing down of the skill requirements to use T2 strip miners and T2 crystals next.

Reads DEVBLOG...

Checks skills...

Refining 5. Refinery Efficiency 5. All specialty skills at 4.

Does a little dance!

Happy Day! I knew those skills would come in handy eventually. In fact, I'm so happy, when I get home I'm going to change my Avatar's facial expression to have a big smile!

Mineral prices are going to spike, which means produced item prices are going to spike harder. Happy times.

Simply put, imagine if every time you bought a carton of eggs, you had to throw one out due to it being rotten.

Then, some of the chickens get sick, decreasing the quality of eggs even more.

The BAD news is, every carton of eggs you buy you have to throw out TWO eggs now. The good news is, the egg companies started selling eggs in cartons of 13 instead of cartons of 12 to compensate.


Either way, you're bringing home 11 good eggs, even if you're throwing more away every time you buy a carton.


It's the same with this change. You get more waste, but you have more to waste so it works out the same as before.

I wouldn't count on that.

You present a very well thought out counter-argument that makes sense. I've been expanding into more BPOs prior to this announcement, and if my battleships become less profitable worst case I'm hedged. Nevertheless I love change for what it teaches.

i actually made a spreadsheet to calculate if it's worth building an outpost or upgrading one with a refinery.

right now it's WIP since i am not done and not happy with the functionality. Also Lockefox is doing some things in the sheet and i am note exactly sure what his goal is.

but some things are already there and working:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmeSjuDVQf0TdF9QTnpRVUJrMUVna0tKY3pkTjZ0dVE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

the sheet shows you the amount of ore (in ISK) you need to refine in order to get back your investment, in each case compared to a 50% NPC station, assuming perfect standings. even though the numbers may seem high (435b for a T3 Minmatar Refinery) they are actually not. I currently make stuff in highsec, one character, 10 lines, lazymode. in last 30 days i went through 150 billion ISK in material. not all of it minerals, but it gives you a sense of scale. any serious industrial corporation will make the ISK back in no time.

I am not yet exactly sure if i want a T3 Minmatar Refinery with POS manufacturing or a T2 Amarr with a T3 Factory and a T1 Plant Upgrade. It's probably going to be the T3 Minmatar for Caps and Supers and the Amarr one for T1 Ships.

yup, but you need to be careful with that tax. it's a trivial thing for Cap Building, still MUCH more profitable under the new system. even with a refinery tax set by the owner. but for things like T1 Ships you need to factor in JF costs for transport to highsec. And those fuel costs will add up rather quickly and shrink your margin.

The reasons you give for making these changes are dumb

If it aint broke don't fix it .....remember that one.

I have a suggestion, why not get your team to work on the lag (aka td) so your sandbox can operate in the manor you advertise.

i actually made a spreadsheet to calculate if it's worth building an outpost or upgrading one with a refinery.

right now it's WIP since i am not done and not happy with the functionality. Also Lockefox is doing some things in the sheet and i am note exactly sure what his goal is.

but some things are already there and working:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmeSjuDVQf0TdF9QTnpRVUJrMUVna0tKY3pkTjZ0dVE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

the sheet shows you the amount of ore (in ISK) you need to refine in order to get back your investment, in each case compared to a 50% NPC station, assuming perfect standings. even though the numbers may seem high (435b for a T3 Minmatar Refinery) they are actually not. I currently make stuff in highsec, one character, 10 lines, lazymode. in last 30 days i went through 150 billion ISK in material. not all of it minerals, but it gives you a sense of scale. any serious industrial corporation will make the ISK back in no time.

I am not yet exactly sure if i want a T3 Minmatar Refinery with POS manufacturing or a T2 Amarr with a T3 Factory and a T1 Plant Upgrade. It's probably going to be the T3 Minmatar for Caps and Supers and the Amarr one for T1 Ships.

I think the logic there is people aren't going to buy minerals to export any more. if the demand goes down then so does the price.

I've thought about it a bit more and there are counterbalances. My original assumption is that mission runners will get less refine, but that could be completely off if refine isn't as big as it used to be. Also, casual and newer miners will get less refine for a while. They may not care enough about a few points to train the whole spectrum, and a few points off a supply is a big deal. There have been such substantial improvements in 0.0 mineral availability that I wonder if compression is that big a deal.

I wish to ask CCP a question.

Do you know what mining is? You don't.

Mining is...

1) Sitting silent and watching your ship for couple of hours to get something valuable.
2) Watching local to avoid known suicide-gankers
3) Watching directional scan to avoid unknown suiciders
4) Flying freighter for 10-20 jumps to the station with the best standings avoiding gankers, enemies, scanning scum.
5) Traveling WH-space to reach null-sec and mine some high-ore there. And there is no warranty you will be able to come back.
6) ...
7) To do the impossible every ******* day!!!

After years of mining and creating ships i've just learned one simple thing - in EVE this is the most dirty, hard and less respectable work. I'm OK with this. But i'm not ok with idiotic developers CCP hired to destory EVE. I hope those N A Z I S will die in pain one day.

Mining, refining and production is NOT an easy thing. It's working perfectly. Take your hands off. Just go and do something you're capable to do. Drawing Hello-kitties on the pink Myrmidon will be fine for you.

Decreasing reprocessing efficiency as a whole affects the outcome of mining, which really doesnGÇÖt need to be nerfed right now. As such, to keep ratio fairly identical, we are going to boost all minerals and ice products gained by reprocessing ores and ices approximately by 38.1% (1/0.724).

any clarification on how working without compression bpos is going to pan out? is the interface changing? is the whole system getting redone?

Please note that we are removing compression blueprints altogether in favor of a more user friendly solution.

Compression blueprints are quite redundant and annoying to deal with, which is why they are being removed altogether. Players who currently own them will be refunded at market buy price. If belonging to a corporation division at the time of the change, the money will be wired back to the corporation wallet.
From now on, when working with the Rorqual or the Compression Array, players will be able to right-click the ores or ices they wish to compress to immediately get the output.

Lowsec cap builder here.

I see the TLDR here being that caps will be built in null at a cost which will consume most/all of my margin and then be jumped into low for sale.

Making my main activity in Eve no longer really worth the bother.

Fair enough then I guess.

my spreadsheet shows how much ore you need to refine in order to get your investment in the different kinds of refinery upgrades and outposts back. you need to factor in the other upgrade options you have if you want to decide which outpost you actually want to build.

OK, since I've only ever been a lowly High Sec miner and therefore without the privilege of a Rorqual or POS actually can someone please explain to me the benefit of compression? I'm picking it's because of the obvious compressing allows more in one area yeah?

What skills are needed for compression then if these changes are going to allow the possibility of high sec POS without jumping through hoops? I'd like to get a jump on. :-)

I always wanted to see outpost related costs, just for curiosity, but am too lazy to build a sheet for it as I enter my prices manually, and a lot of materials go into these items.

Do you have sheets that cover platform cost + material costs, and upgrade cost + material costs, to generate your sheet?

i was to lazy to do something exact so i used rounded estimates based on the material (taken from chruker) which i just entered into evepraisal

Snip.

If you have the maxed skills, the needed reputation, a %50 station and the +4 implant think of it this way.

Before the change = 32 degrees Fahrenheit
After the change = 0 degrees Celsius

You get the bpo's refunded and its done in the right-click menu.

On the Reprocessing Arrays can we get the reprocessing yield looked at again? Currently it looks like the numbers are at 52% and 54% which does not really create the incentive. If those numbers were 54% and 58% the incentive would be there and help to close the gap with Null.

Even 53% and 56% would help.

snip

If anything, CCP hasn't gone far enough in boosting null industry.

[quote=Emiko Rowna]Until now I assumed that refinery quality went from High-Sec (50%) > POS (52/54%) > Outpost (60%).

But the POS figure is a fixed number, right? So the 54% is the max yield, regardless of skills? While High Sec gets a max of 72,4%. So that means the POS is still crap to reprocess at or am I understanding this wrong?

No, POS will reprocess like you had max skills + implant, so max possible reprocessing for ore and ice will be:
NPC station - 72.36%
HS POS - 75.25%
LS POS - 78.15%
upgraded outpost - 86.83%

(probably) due to old POS code, POS will always yield max results regardless of skills and will be an obvious choice for all HS and LS areas.

So you are saying a non skilled player will get max results from a POS? I did not know that and find it a bit odd.

So you are saying a non skilled player will get max results from a POS? I did not know that and find it a bit odd.

I did note the increase in yield, all that will do is fill the hold of your mining ships faster wouldn't it?

At the moment my skills are

Refining V
Refining Efficiency IV
Most Ores IV

So currently in high sec, in my 50% station with 6.67 standings, I get 100% refine, lovely, love it. Fair enough it is unbalanced and they want me to train some more in order to GÇ£earnGÇ¥ the right to perfect refine, only ill never get it.

I undock a retriever and fill 27000m3 of ore, post nerf it will just take less time to fill (yield bonus), I take it back to that station and currently I get 0% waste, post nerf my wastage is 27.6% with those same skills all trained to V because they only give me 72.4 refine, and this is even if I have made that commitment and trained everything to V

So IGÇÖve put in the effort, IGÇÖve trained everything to V and am rewarded with a refine rate that is less than if I have everything trained to I currently. I shouldn't have to use an implant to bump that up a little further.

Ill admit I know nothing about compression, and I may have this wrong, but even if I have compressed ore, I still have to refine it donGÇÖt I, and id still be subject to getting only 72.4% out of it. ItGÇÖs just the ore doesnGÇÖt take up as much space to take it to the place you want to refine it?

Can i ask what the point is of making the max refine 86%. A percent is based on 100% being the highest you can go so would that not make 86% 100%? Why change it from its current method, all its going to do is show people **** they arnt getting from refining and taunt them. I really dont understand this move.

86% gives them wiggle room for future improvements without rebasing everything down.

Can i ask what the point is of making the max refine 86%. A percent is based on 100% being the highest you can go so would that not make 86% 100%? Why change it from its current method, all its going to do is show people **** they arnt getting from refining and taunt them. I really dont understand this move.

There is one particular design problem with reprocessing: Currently you can reprocess at a perfect 100% rate uniformly across New Eden, regardless of system or station. As a result:

* It prevents us from giving low and null-security facilities some advantage: Player-built stations in null security space can only be, at their very best, equivalent with NPC stations that are spread all across New Eden.
* Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since itGÇÖs possible to get to the cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity.
* It limits a game designerGÇÖs ability to increase material composition on items when needed, as this would give players free stuff in the process. As an example, we were forced to add Extra Materials to most of the ships that have been through the Tiericide initiative (which by itself, added a lot of confusion for players engaged in Manufacturing).
*It devalues the Rorqual and its compression facilities as a whole, since modules exist with better compression ratios.

If it isn't broke don't fix it...

The way I read the dev statement CCP there are three reasons why they want to change the refining percentages.

1. Low and Null sec need refining advantages over Hi sec. Why? Reprocessing is a click of a button. I dont see the risk versus factor.

2. The Roqual is not competitive. So instead of fixing the Roqual to make it more competitive, CCP has chosen to reduce all the refining in the entire EVE universe to in order to help push the Roqual.

3. Players can get perfect refine without maxing skills/faction. While I agree this needs to be fixed, making it impossible to ever get 100% is ridiculous and the jedi mind trick of increasing the amount of ore refined to make it seem like players are getting 100% isn't working. Besides the reduction of waste factor there isnt any other reason for players to spend the time to get skills to level V.

In fact many skills in the game dont provide anything at level V. In my opinion this is what you should be working on. Give players a reason to max out their skills.

Perfect Refine at all Highsec stations is broken from a game balance POV.

Logic would suggest that better industrial refinements and techniques (ie, real research and development into techniques and infrastructure) would be available in a high population, "safer" environment, versus always-at-war, high risk environments for any kind of sustained settlement. Why would high sec, being safer and more populous, NOT have higher-end industry and manufacturing techniques than those available in nearly-nomadic, unstable, dangerous environments like out on the edges of space?

The logic of giving higher refining advantages to remote, dangerous, unstable, and lowly populated regions without the advantage of the brightest minds of industry is just plain dumb.

also as anyone who has ever compared the highsec peasant with the null player has discovered, the null players are clearly brighter by orders of magnitude

Goonswarm. Nuff said.

Logic would suggest that better industrial refinements and techniques (ie, real research and development into techniques and infrastructure) would be available in a high population, "safer" environment, versus always-at-war, high risk environments for any kind of sustained settlement. Why would high sec, being safer and more populous, NOT have higher-end industry and manufacturing techniques than those available in nearly-nomadic, unstable, dangerous environments like out on the edges of space?

Logic would suggest that better industrial refinements and techniques (ie, real research and development into techniques and infrastructure) would be available in a high population, "safer" environment, versus always-at-war, high risk environments for any kind of sustained settlement. Why would high sec, being safer and more populous, NOT have higher-end industry and manufacturing techniques than those available in nearly-nomadic, unstable, dangerous environments like out on the edges of space?

The logic of giving higher refining advantages to remote, dangerous, unstable, and lowly populated regions without the advantage of the brightest minds of industry is just plain dumb.

Logic would suggest that better industrial refinements and techniques (ie, real research and development into techniques and infrastructure) would be available in a high population, "safer" environment, versus always-at-war, high risk environments for any kind of sustained settlement. Why would high sec, being safer and more populous, NOT have higher-end industry and manufacturing techniques than those available in nearly-nomadic, unstable, dangerous environments like out on the edges of space?

The logic of giving higher refining advantages to remote, dangerous, unstable, and lowly populated regions without the advantage of the brightest minds of industry is just plain dumb.

Logic would suggest that better industrial refinements and techniques (ie, real research and development into techniques and infrastructure) would be available in a high population, "safer" environment, versus always-at-war, high risk environments for any kind of sustained settlement. Why would high sec, being safer and more populous, NOT have higher-end industry and manufacturing techniques than those available in nearly-nomadic, unstable, dangerous environments like out on the edges of space?

The logic of giving higher refining advantages to remote, dangerous, unstable, and lowly populated regions without the advantage of the brightest minds of industry is just plain dumb.

How do people think these changes are going to impact new plays and their ability to make ISK?

In the real world the best industry and manufacturing plants are placed in a secured location close to the best resources and in many cases, a portion of the population (5-8%) will build itself around these plants for various reasons. Most real world city planners plan for that.

In a wartime situation allied forces would attempt to destroy/secure resources in a hostile location for as long as possible to deny the enemy and if possible (risk v reward) small industry (minor supplies/ammo) would be developed. To support the wartime effort, industry in safe locations would crank out massive amounts of war materials (vehicles, ammo, and supplies) to be transported to the front lines. All research and development would be conducted in the safe locations. Do you really think a country would build aircraft carriers, massive manufacturing plants, or conduct chemical weapon research in the middle of a war zone?

Players/corps that choose to move their operations out of hi sec do so at their own risk and shouldn't be rewarded any bonuses to refining since reprocessing is simply a click of a button. Regardless of space or how the items got to the reprocessing station, its a click of a button.

As far as player made items go, please show me where the game has allowed player made ships to be better than ones bought on the npc market. A npc kestral is the same as a player made kestral.

Many players need the 100% refine for income purposes. I refine 99% of module drops to make money and taking over 25% of my income just to balance compression ratios of a ship only few people fly hurts. If the ship means that much to the dev team..do the common sense thing and balance its compression ratio. The devs should have soley addressed the 100% without maxed skills.

With all the hi sec nerfs and the devs continuance of trying to trick players into low/wh/null space with baited carrots of gold, I believe in a few years the only hi sec systems will be the trade hubs. I wouldnt be suprised to see hi sec space shrink in the next expansion.

I like a bit of freshness every few years, don't you?

Not even close, and certainly not the best. Heavy industries like oil refineries and ore smelters, power plants (especially nuclear) have no residential nearby. Nowhere near even 1% of a city population will come close to such spaces. A good nuclear plant has no advantage to being close to a populated area, it does not becomes better for it, but worse! The same is true of other most heavy industry!