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Ballistic Control System 2 BPO for 33b? YES PLS!

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Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:04:00 - [1] One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP ****** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Sadist	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:05:00 - [2] Supported. Situations with some T2 modules are just plain broken. --------------- VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:14:00 - [3] Originally by: Vina whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. last I heard they were almost entirely renovating the T2 distribution system with Kali, aren't they? I think I can bear with it til then.... though my R&D agent forking over an Exhumer BPO would sure soften the pain.... hell any of my R&D agents forking over a BP or two at all would be nice. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Kel Shek last I heard they were almost entirely renovating the T2 distribution system with Kali, aren't they? They aren't. tech 2 BPOs will still be the isk printers of 50000% profit margins they currently are. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Aodha Khan	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:18:00 - [5] If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:21:00 - [6] Originally by: Aodha Khan If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. if you went to a car dealership, and the Car with no power locks or windows was $10000 and the one with power locks and windows was $8,950,000 which would you buy? That is the situation with tech 1/tech 2 ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:23:00 - [7] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Aodha Khan If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. if you went to a car dealership, and the Car with no power locks or windows was $10000 and the one with power locks and windows was $8,950,000 which would you buy? That is the situation with tech 1/tech 2 Actually, in terms applicable to you, it would be the difference between shagging a cat, and shagging a catgirl. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Benglada	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:23:00 - [8] if there were only 20 cars with powerlocks in the world gues which id buy --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Ixianus	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:26:00 - [9] Yeah, you know, they should make it all extremely cheap so that noone has any motivation at all to vary what they use in combat and such. If you want the best you pay more than the rest.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Kel Shek last I heard they were almost entirely renovating the T2 distribution system with Kali, aren't they? They aren't. tech 2 BPOs will still be the isk printers of 50000% profit margins they currently are. Did you miss the news of the planned R&D revamp, reverse-engineering and the plan to make "hacking" profession the base for current tech levels of production? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:28:00 - [11] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Actually, in terms applicable to you, it would be the difference between shagging a cat, and shagging a catgirl. ... wow.... .. yeah... erm, anyway. I woulda sworn i read somewhere they were going to alter the system.... not taking out the lottery entirely, but making it so you could "buy" bpc's or some BPO's with RP or something? was I dreaming or did they just cancel that plan? ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
keepiru	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:29:00 - [12] God, i wish all t2 bpos were gazillion percent profit machines. Most of us have to settle for 15-30% profit t2 bpos. ---------------- Official ISD cake & bree reserve thief. Barricades a speciality! Last stands on request.
Gierling	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:47:00 - [13] /me has never flown a tech II ship, and never will. Frankly I cant say that It's slowed me down, tech II is largely an isk sink. If you've ever been in a situation where the difference between a tech II mod and a Tech I mod dictated the outcome... your tactics suck. PRoposal to fix blobbing and make Charisma useful.
Khatred	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:50:00 - [14] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Kel Shek last I heard they were almost entirely renovating the T2 distribution system with Kali, aren't they? They aren't. tech 2 BPOs will still be the isk printers of 50000% profit margins they currently are. yeah, because we all know that most, if not all t2 bpos run on 10000000% profit. Oh, and I am selling t2 clues too. I got the only bpo in game. _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Gierling /me has never flown a tech II ship, and never will. Frankly I cant say that It's slowed me down, tech II is largely an isk sink. If you've ever been in a situation where the difference between a tech II mod and a Tech I mod dictated the outcome... your tactics suck. tech 2 is NOT an isk sink. The isk does not disappear at all during tech 2 construction/sale. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:57:00 - [16] lol what's the matter, got no isk? Seriously... enough of the t2 crying. Don't buy the things if you cannot afford it, if you can then sush. -=====-
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:57:00 - [17] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 30/04/2006 07:59:11 This is a game. Games are usually balanced in a way that players have a positive experience while playing it. So forget your player driven market argument. The market will be mostly player driven that's true, but the gaming experience that the players have while playing is probably rated higher than the iskies of a single player. Sure, CCP doesn't want to screw over the t2 bpo owners, but at some point they might do some modifications to the system to improve the gaming experience for the majority. This happened in combat, look back in EVE history and early forms of pirating and this will also happen, if research/production/trade develop into a direction that affects a lot of players negatively. Example: If someone had a lot of isk, somehow managed to optain all covert op cloaking device bpos and decided to never build covert ops cloacking devices, because he doesn't like covert ops and wants them out of the game, then CCP would probably show him that free player market has limits and that they are finally in the god position to decide, what they want in game. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 07:59:00 - [18] Originally by: MysticNZ lol what's the matter, got no isk? Seriously... enough of the t2 crying. Don't buy the things if you cannot afford it, if you can then sush. lol I ahve plenty of money. THe problem is with random people in eve suddenly getting 35b blueprints for doing absolutely nothing. They did not deserve it in any way. If tech 2 bpos were available to everyone who put in the time and effort to aqcuire one, I wouldn't mind paying the retarded prices, cause at least they worked their ass off to get the bpo. Not just click 1 button and some weeks later are suddenly ******* rich. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Benglada	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:00:00 - [19] Originally by: Snake Jankins Example: If someone had a lot of isk, somehow managed to optain all covert op cloaking device bpos and decided to never build covert ops cloacking devices, because he doesn't like covert ops and wants them out of the game, then CCP would probably show him that free player market has limits and that they are finally in the god position to decide, what they want ingame. And i wish him well with his new bpos. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy t2. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:05:00 - [20] Edited by: Vina on 30/04/2006 08:06:21 I missed that one. Ultimately it is not the prices that are what I am talking about, it's the fact that people who are undeserving get so much wealth. Tech 2 bpo requires no work to get. People like Leno who get nighthawk BPOs for 10000 RP... it's ridiculous. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Khatred	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:05:00 - [21] And you missed the Hulk that went for 80+ bil. Or did you freaked out too much on that one? _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:06:00 - [22] Edited by: MysticNZ on 30/04/2006 08:07:20 Originally by: Vina Originally by: MysticNZ lol what's the matter, got no isk? Seriously... enough of the t2 crying. Don't buy the things if you cannot afford it, if you can then sush. lol I ahve plenty of money. THe problem is with random people in eve suddenly getting 35b blueprints for doing absolutely nothing. They did not deserve it in any way. If tech 2 bpos were available to everyone who put in the time and effort to aqcuire one, I wouldn't mind paying the retarded prices, cause at least they worked their ass off to get the bpo. Not just click 1 button and some weeks later are suddenly ******* rich. Pretty flawed logic since this is what happens in real life. The guy works hard for it and sold it. The guy (alliance) who bought it has worked hard for the isk as well. What's the problem? Jellous you couldn't buy it? -=====-
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:07:00 - [23] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 30/04/2006 08:09:33 Originally by: Benglada Originally by: Snake Jankins Example: If someone had a lot of isk, somehow managed to optain all covert op cloaking device bpos and decided to never build covert ops cloacking devices, because he doesn't like covert ops and wants them out of the game, then CCP would probably show him that free player market has limits and that they are finally in the god position to decide, what they want ingame. And i wish him well with his new bpos. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy t2. If you read it right, I said he wouldn't put them on the market, so that people can't use covert ops. Naive to think that CCP would tolerate such a situation. Sorry, t2 bpo owners are just players like everyone else. The balance might change at any time and if someone feels uncomfortable with it, he has the right to quit. Except that he has no right. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:08:00 - [24] Quote: Pretty flawed logic since this is what happens in real life. uh, no it's not? someone has to invest money, time, and effort in R&D, marketing, etc to design a product. it doesn;t just appear out of thin air. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Sadist	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:11:00 - [25] Originally by: MysticNZ Pretty flawed logic since this is what happens in real life. The guy works hard for it and sold it. The guy (alliance) who bought it has worked hard for the isk as well. What's the problem? Jellous you couldn't buy it? Pretty flawed indeed. It takes much more grinding and effort to collect the ISK to buy the bpo, rather than win it by pure luck with a lottery. And by much more, I mean so much, that the system can be effectively considered broken. --------------- VIP member of the [23] Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
RangerXT	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:12:00 - [26] I think my 5 research agents should provide me atleast one T2 ship bpo. Am I right people? Petition to show your support!
Dimitri Chandler	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:14:00 - [27] T2 BPOs are one of the best things, closest to 'end game' in the game. People buy them because they can afford them. Some people have been playing the game for 3 years. Thats a long time to accumulate isk. The only way such uber items remain 'uber' is because the price is high, and exclusive to 90% of the playerbase. Payback time on a t2 BCU bpo at 33bn is a hell of a long time. I doubt there is profit in making the modules in the short to medium term. However, some BPOs are accumulating assets - these are generally the ones that produce high use, high volume, moderate price items. - cap rechargers, cloaks, shield boost amps, armor reps, shield boosters. As the playerbase increases, these go up in value accordingly. Others reduce in value since nobody uses what they produce. The common misconception that these BPOs are only worth 12 months profit is plain wrong. It's like buying a house and suggesting that its only worth the equivalent of 12 months rent. I think 33bn on a BCU II bpo is a little on the high side, but am not surprised it has gone this high. Ravens are the most popular BS in the game afterall. I would have been prepared to pay 25 or so for it. Exiles recruiting Nope :) -Capsicum
RangerXT	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:22:00 - [28] Okay guys I know I asked you to petition so I could get a T2 ship BPO. And according to this GM chat they've recieved 17 petitions in the last 10 minutes about it. They are kinda ticked so I want you all to know I was just joking and stop petitioning them. I know it's not fair I don't have a T2 ship BPO but pestering the devs isn't the way to go about it. But all my love to my boys who supported me.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:26:00 - [29] Edited by: Nyphur on 30/04/2006 08:25:53 Originally by: Snake Jankins This is a game. Games are usually balanced in a way that players have a positive experience while playing it. Eve isn't. Eve was never like other games in that respect and I hope it never will be. Alterations have been made that support this trend, like insurance, but I find that eve is not ultimately balanced around the players having a positive experience. Everquest 2 was designed around that concept, that everyone should be able to have fun when playing it, regardless of skill level. It ended up being World of Warcraft for Everquest fans. Rewards without effort, rewards without challenge, rewards without skill. They recently removed death penalty from the game. You can't lose your gear, ever. You can simply revive nearby if killed and without death penalty people actually use this to travel, jumping off cliffs because it's shorter than walking all the way back to town. They give you reward without risk. Even on the pvp servers there are insane restrictions on pvp because the whole pvp system is just a hack on top of the game. When you kill someone, you get half of the money they're carrying, which is usually approximately zero because they know they'll lose it and don't carry any, and have a 10% chance of losing one thing from your inventory (one ****ty thing, by the way. The rare stuff won't ever drop). Tack onto that the fact that the game designers bend over backward for the players to keep them happy and you can see how much that game strives to keep players having a positive experience. In eve, there sure as hell is a death penalty. I don't neccecarilly ahve a positive eperience in it just like in real life. I could have all my POS destroyed when they are still months away from returning on their investment. All my work over the past few months could be removed by other players with a fleet of dreads. I could be blown up while mining and lose a ship. If I am out complex-running and I find I'm in over my head but am scrambled, as has happened before, I die and I sure as hell feel the isk hurt because I fly a Deimos with deadspace mods. None of this stuff is a positive experience and people continually quit eve over things like this but for me it's what makes eve awesome. The fact that where there's reward, there's risk, effort, skill or cunning involved is a big attraction to me. If there's nothing to lose, there's nothing worth gaining. In contrast to everquest 2, everquest 1 had harsh death penalties. You could go down levels by XP loss when you die and the only consolation was that higher level resurrection spells reclaimed some of the xp loss. In addition, you could lose your gear if you couldn't retrieve your corpse. They did everything right, in my opinion, and then went into everquest 2 and did everything wrong because it would make people have a positive experience when playing it. I'm sure rapid, free rewards and a complete lack of penalty for failure appeals to more people than skill-based, effort-based or risk-based reward schemes like that employed in eve but I personally don't think it's worth it. Like I said, if there's nothing to lose by doing something, what you gain from it isn't worth squat because anyone could do it. EDIT: Oh crap, huge post. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:27:00 - [30] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 30/04/2006 08:33:17 When Kali comes, it might happen that high profit items get reverse engineered a lot, e.g. that a bcs-II drops from 7.5 mil isk or more, I haven't bought any lately, to maybe 4 mil isk. Who knows, the system isn't finished yet. If that really happens, I think someone, who spend 33bil isk for the BPO has no reason to cry. He knew that the R&D changes are coming with Kali and that ultra-high profit items will be affected most. edit: Or e.g. cap-rechargers-2. I am about 99% sure that the times of 15 mil isk/unit are over then. You can flame me, but finally it doesn't make a difference, because the devs don't listen to me. They do it wether you kill me or not. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:35:00 - [31] Edited by: MysticNZ on 30/04/2006 08:36:30 Originally by: Vina Originally by: MysticNZ Originally by: Vina Quote: Pretty flawed logic since this is what happens in real life. uh, no it's not? someone has to invest money, time, and effort in R&D, marketing, etc to design a product. it doesn;t just appear out of thin air. Yeah, then some random company will come and buy that company in question up... how is that different? Unbelievable. I would get banned from the forum if I said what I think of you right now. The difference is... THERE WAS STILL EFFORT AND INVESTMENT PUT IN AT SOME POINT> THERE IS NONE OF THAT WHEN IT COMES TO ACQUIRING THE T2 BPO THE FIRST TIME. lol, you're funny. Yeah, they had to run the missions all day in and out. -=====-
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:39:00 - [32] Originally by: MysticNZ Yeah, they had to run the missions all day in and out. I wish they did but it's not true. Running missions should accumulate RP or something but what actually happens is that they get RP per day and I beleive they get extra if they run at least one mission per day. So there are people who literally clicked a button, abandoned the agent and months later recieved a blueprint for a HAC. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:49:00 - [33] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: MysticNZ Yeah, they had to run the missions all day in and out. I wish they did but it's not true. Running missions should accumulate RP or something but what actually happens is that they get RP per day and I beleive they get extra if they run at least one mission per day. So there are people who literally clicked a button, abandoned the agent and months later recieved a blueprint for a HAC. I was unaware of that. -=====-
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: MysticNZ Yeah, they had to run the missions all day in and out. I wish they did but it's not true. Running missions should accumulate RP or something but what actually happens is that they get RP per day and I beleive they get extra if they run at least one mission per day. So there are people who literally clicked a button, abandoned the agent and months later recieved a blueprint for a HAC. or who clicked the button, ignored it, and 2 weeks later got a javelin rocket
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.04.30 08:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Snake Jankins This is a game. Games are usually balanced in a way that players have a positive experience while playing it. Eve isn't. Eve was never like other games in that respect and I hope it never will be. Alterations have been made that support this trend, like insurance, but I find that eve is not ultimately balanced around the players having a positive experience. EVE is, otherwise I won't play it. I was talking about long term entertainment and I have a good experience over all, although not in every single second. You people forget something: free market is one key element of EVE, but the number of t2 BPOs, they gave out, is nothing more then a number that seemed reasonable at that time. The whole t2 system is just a system that seemed to do the job. If they find out that it has flaws, then the devs might change it. It's really this simple. T2 skills and new t2 ships and modules are also a means for CCP to keep customers interested, give them new toys and have some cool features for the expansions and expansions are there to keep old players and gain new players. If the devs put months of work into new t2 stuff to keep old players and gain new ones and NOT ONLY to make BPO owners rich, then they have also an interest to find the right balance between free market, the interest of BPO owners and supplying the advanced players with new toys. It's really a balance thing. And I repeat: I have overall a positive gaming experience, everyone has overall, although not in every single moment, otherwise he must be an idiot to play anyway. But if the gaming experience of a large player group suffers too much, because of a few players or because of a flaw in the system, then the game designers usually start to think about some changes. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.30 09:07:00 - [36] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Snake Jankins This is a game. Games are usually balanced in a way that players have a positive experience while playing it. Eve isn't. Eve was never like other games in that respect and I hope it never will be. Alterations have been made that support this trend, like insurance, but I find that eve is not ultimately balanced around the players having a positive experience. ... In eve, there sure as hell is a death penalty. I don't neccecarilly ahve a positive eperience in it just like in real life. I could have all my POS destroyed when they are still months away from returning on their investment. All my work over the past few months could be removed by other players with a fleet of dreads. I could be blown up while mining and lose a ship. If I am out complex-running and I find I'm in over my head but am scrambled, as has happened before, I die and I sure as hell feel the isk hurt because I fly a Deimos with deadspace mods. None of this stuff is a positive experience and people continually quit eve over things like this but for me it's what makes eve awesome. The fact that where there's reward, there's risk, effort, skill or cunning involved is a big attraction to me. If there's nothing to lose, there's nothing worth gaining. It depends what you mean by "a positive experience". When i explode, I am usually not happy with that result. In that instant, thats not a positive experience. On the other hand, overall, eve is a positivie experience. I play it because I enjoy the game, because it is a positive experience. The distinction here is trying to make every moment happy at the expense of the overall experience, or making the overall experience positive at the expense of certain moments. I'd rather go for the second any day, but a lot of people would go for the fluffy first option. Any game without any positive experience in mind will be horrible, because none of it would be positive. In which case, whats the point?
F'nog	Posted - 2006.04.30 09:36:00 - [37] Snake raises an interesting point: When T2 BPOs were originally introduced the game had about 1/4 the players it currently does. And of those 1/4, very few could use T2 ships/mods. Well, actually they could, and that's why the reqs for T2 were upped from II to IV/V in most cases in March of 2003. So, really, the devs picked a number that seemed to make sense at the time, but haven't followed through with the natural progression that the game and the playerbase has undergone. So we're stuck with the number of T2 BPOs that was acceptable when there about 25-30k players on and only a few hundred could use the items, to a point where seemingly everyone can fly a HAC, pre-req-wise. I mean, when HACs were introduced everyone was like "OMG, you have to have Cruiser V to fly it!!!!!!" Now Cruiser V is a run-of-the-mill skill to train for anyone who's been in the game for a few months. Thus we have the combined problem of a rapidly-growing playerbase who are also becoming very well-skilled and an artificial supply limit that is probably rooted in a "good guess". Now, the devs have a plan to combat this problem, but like most of these fixes, a la the server upgrade, it's not going to happen very soon and we have to put up with these artificial limiting factors for the time being. Hopefully, this won't spin so far out of control that even the fix isn't enough to prevent ruin. We've also seen that the devs have acknowledged the problem somewhat since there are far more ammo BPOs available than other T2 equipment. So, at this point, I don't really see a problem in seeding a few more of the most in-demand BPOs, or altering their production time, to help keep up with demand. I don't want to see HACs going for 30mil (well, I would, but I'm reasonable), but something should be done to help prevent the inflation of their prices which will only continue until Reverse Engineering finally appears. And I personally don't see anything to prevent prices from growing continuously until then. Perhaps we'll even see HACs going for 1 bil ISK. And that's just rediculous and nonsensical. Originally by: Bl4zer But, cmon, this is the Eve forums, we don't let facts get in the way of pointless speculation.
Typee	Posted - 2006.04.30 09:38:00 - [38] Originally by: Snake Jankins This is a game. Originally by: Nyphur Eve isn't. Omg
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.04.30 09:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Typee Originally by: Snake Jankins This is a game. Originally by: Nyphur Eve isn't. Omg all the cool kids quote in context
Juliet Alpha	Posted - 2006.04.30 09:45:00 - [40] Originally by: Vina Originally by: MysticNZ Originally by: Vina Quote: Pretty flawed logic since this is what happens in real life. uh, no it's not? someone has to invest money, time, and effort in R&D, marketing, etc to design a product. it doesn;t just appear out of thin air. Yeah, then some random company will come and buy that company in question up... how is that different? Unbelievable. I would get banned from the forum if I said what I think of you right now. The difference is... THERE WAS STILL EFFORT AND INVESTMENT PUT IN AT SOME POINT> THERE IS NONE OF THAT WHEN IT COMES TO ACQUIRING THE T2 BPO THE FIRST TIME. What about the 2,500,00 skill points I invested in research project management, research & science? Then there is the 250,000 SP in each specialisation I research. Over 25% of my skill points are in Science. Then there are skills required to actually produce the items. I also ran missions for 3 agents for 6 months, the total cost of which must have run into hundreds of millions for plutonium, enriched uranium homeless etc. as well as the mundane courier missions. So far I have 1 rocket & 1 light missile BPO to show for over a years work which in a good week will bring in about 15 million. I have T1 BPOs which bring a better return than that. Despite this I like the the current system. I chose to invest my training & on-line time in science and running research agent missions. Because of this I don't get the nice loot drops of the combat pilots, the 0.0 mining returns of the hard core miner or the fun(?) of running a POS, but I am not whining about that.
Khatred	Posted - 2006.04.30 09:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Jim Raynor turn all current t2 bpos into limited run bpcs introduce new system where players have to actually work towards a goal instead of "random" dumb luck if any current t2 bpo holders find this unfair, too bad because you did absolutely nothing and got to print billions upon billions of 0 risk isk for a very long time now I think that my yearly outpot of t2 clues wouldn't be enough for you. _______________________________________________ Every time you whine a little HAC is destroyed. Please think of the little HACs
MuffinsRevenger	Posted - 2006.04.30 09:59:00 - [42] imho they shoud add the bpo's to the regular npc market but have their price incresed from 10 times the base price of the item like it is with the t1 bpo's to 100times it's not like it woud break the game (well, for a few people, but those woud have to adapt)
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.04.30 10:04:00 - [43] Originally by: MuffinsRevenger imho they shoud add the bpo's to the regular npc market but have their price incresed from 10 times the base price of the item like it is with the t1 bpo's to 100times it's not like it woud break the game (well, for a few people, but those woud have to adapt) No, T2 should be player produced... never even onsale from npcs. -=====-
MuffinsRevenger	Posted - 2006.04.30 10:19:00 - [44] well, it woud be player produced, only that everyone who felt like competeing on the market shoud be able to do so the items woud not be npc produced, but the bpo's npc avaible
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.04.30 10:20:00 - [45] Some of you just need to admit CCP ****** up T2 badly... They made a mistake with the lottery, and they are taking too long to fix it IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Professor McFly	Posted - 2006.04.30 10:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Vina Unbelievable. I would get banned from the forum if I said what I think of you right now. This is why you shouldn't post on this forum. You get complete ****wits without a clue posting their opinions. __________________ Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk mods - pwning sigs since 1943
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 11:16:00 - [47] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 30/04/2006 11:20:02 Originally by: Bhaal Some of you just need to admit CCP ****** up T2 badly... They made a mistake with the lottery, and they are taking too long to fix it IMO... No, actually, the system is working just fine. BCS II have been dropping in value ever since they came out, even though the owners of the BPOs have been doing everything in their power to try to stop it from happening. HACs are "overpriced" because the build time is too long and there are too few BPOs--even CCP recognizes it. The system is fine. Individual parts of it may need fixing. If you bought a top-end Athlon 64 dual core computer with 4 gigs of RAM and all the best stuff, but got a cheap graphics card, I wouldn't tell you to toss the whole thing and replace it--I'd just tell you to get a new graphics card. You just have a very severe case of I'm-too-lazy-to-actually-get-one-so-I'll-whine-about-those-who-have-one. Should people not be allowed to pay obscene, possibly unprofitable amounts for BPOs if they want to? For all you ignorant whiners: CCP has said they aren't removing or reforming the current system. Any changes will be additions, such as limited BPC releases from research agents. Your whining isn't going to change this. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.04.30 11:24:00 - [48] Its Fked up, yeah. I've ranted a lot before, but this time its Kayo, so. Meh. /me continues to stroke his BCS2 BPO. --------
Galk	Posted - 2006.04.30 11:29:00 - [49] I sort of agree with the original post. But the game will never be balanced and there will never be a parity. The last 3 years of unblanced issues and those that have exploited them have set that in stone. If it is all about isk:/ ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 11:29:00 - [50] To continue, people simply need to realize that T2 as a system is fine. The profit margins on the vast majority of T2 items are what I would call reasonable--reasonable being that the item is worth far far less than the ship the person is equipping it on. As an example, 4-6m for a T2 large gun is fine, because the ship they're equipping it on is 100m. Small guns are 500k to 1.5m, which is more reasonable for a frig/AF/inty. These are reasonable prices. I sell my 100mn AB IIs for about 4.8m and they fly off the shelves. As a BS is 100m, thats a pretty reasonable price. A BCS2 at 7-8m is not reasonable, as heatsink IIs and gyro IIs have already set the standard for damage mod prices. A Cerberus for 220m is probably not reasonable either. I have many, many times proposed a very simple BPC system to use the market system to counter overpriced items--perhaps I should post it again. Basically, you'd be able to buy BPCs from your agent at the cost of 1 RP for every 10 seconds of build time. You choose the BPC, of course. This means that you wouldn't be able to make a good profit off this--you'd get relatively few BPCs. But hundreds of other people would also buy these BPCs, and thus would push down the price of any overvalued item before it could become something that everyone and their dog is whining about. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.04.30 11:35:00 - [51] well with the limited t2 supply a good upside has come abuot more ppl are moving into 0.0 space seeking factional items from NPC drops (including BS and cruiser BPC drops) as well as some BPC drops for factional items. Such supplies as well as mission drops are increasing on escrow and pushing down prices (a vlaid purhcas alternative t2 items) where such options exist.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2006.04.30 11:51:00 - [52] Originally by: Juliet Alpha Originally by: Vina Originally by: MysticNZ Originally by: Vina Quote: Pretty flawed logic since this is what happens in real life. uh, no it's not? someone has to invest money, time, and effort in R&D, marketing, etc to design a product. it doesn;t just appear out of thin air. Yeah, then some random company will come and buy that company in question up... how is that different? Unbelievable. I would get banned from the forum if I said what I think of you right now. The difference is... THERE WAS STILL EFFORT AND INVESTMENT PUT IN AT SOME POINT> THERE IS NONE OF THAT WHEN IT COMES TO ACQUIRING THE T2 BPO THE FIRST TIME. What about the 2,500,00 skill points I invested in research project management, research & science? Then there is the 250,000 SP in each specialisation I research. Over 25% of my skill points are in Science. Then there are skills required to actually produce the items. I also ran missions for 3 agents for 6 months, the total cost of which must have run into hundreds of millions for plutonium, enriched uranium homeless etc. as well as the mundane courier missions. So far I have 1 rocket & 1 light missile BPO to show for over a years work which in a good week will bring in about 15 million. I have T1 BPOs which bring a better return than that. Despite this I like the the current system. I chose to invest my training & on-line time in science and running research agent missions. Because of this I don't get the nice loot drops of the combat pilots, the 0.0 mining returns of the hard core miner or the fun(?) of running a POS, but I am not whining about that. I have run missions for three days and invested a few hundred thousand SP into Research PRoject management. One day i will most likely get one or more BPOS and i have invested exactly 0 effort, 35 million isk and a few hours of my time. If im lucky theyll be worth +30 billion isk, which means i get to buy a mothership for free. If not theyre might be worth a few billion isk, which means i can go buy some freee faction battleships. So how exactly is the system balanced? T2 BPO sould be the reward for people who actually put an effort in, not random people like with money to spend on a few skills and standings to use a few agents. RP's shouldnt come for free, one should have to grind missions for them, seperating the ones willing to put in an effort from the ones looking for free money. ------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 11:52:00 - [53] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 30/04/2006 11:52:42 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain I have run missions for three days and invested a few hundred thousand SP into Research PRoject management. One day i will most likely get one or more BPOS and i have invested exactly 0 effort, 35 million isk and a few hours of my time. If im lucky theyll be worth +30 billion isk, which means i get to buy a mothership for free. If not theyre might be worth a few billion isk, which means i can go buy some freee faction battleships. So how exactly is the system balanced? T2 BPO sould be the reward for people who actually put an effort in, not random people like with money to spend on a few skills and standings to use a few agents. RP's shouldnt come for free, one should have to grind missions for them, seperating the ones willing to put in an effort from the ones looking for free money. I'd say exactly the opposite. Why should only people who run agent missions all day be able to do tech 2 research? Imagine the outcry if only pirates could do T2 research, or if only 0.0 miners could do T2 research. Why should only hardcore mission runners be able to do T2 research? Tech 2 shouldn't be a grind. The current system is fine--its totally random, and gives everyone a fair chance. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Lord Slater	Posted - 2006.04.30 12:04:00 - [54] OMG CATGIRLS RUN FOR THE HILLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!! Seriously tho if i got that print from an agent i wouldnt sell it. What i would do is look for a really rich Production/mining corp and use the bluepring to smooth my way to a senior position. Note tho. I WONT give them the blueprint I WONT give them the copys for free I will ask for the resources ie pos to produce ballistic controlls. I would give decent profit to corp in return for manufacture support and protection [hence the need for a BIG corp. I will get rich
Aziza	Posted - 2006.04.30 12:07:00 - [55] Originally by: Vina One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP **** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. Your brains are **** up, tech 2 is fine. And your whine serve no purpose. ------------------------- Thank you
Tommy X	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:05:00 - [56] Originally by: Dark Shikari Tech 2 shouldn't be a grind. The current system is fine--its totally random, and gives everyone a fair chance. Thats the point, the current system IS NOT fair, the system needs to be designed to be alot more inclusive. Really the only way for people to really want to get involved Tech II is to earn vast sums of iskies and buy there way in. We need to move from this "I'm an instant billionaire" situation with this lottery and have it that people who want to get involved in industry can... I.e reverse engineering, research point auctions for BPCs to name a few. The current round of ***ing over tech II prices hides another major issue... in game inflation, CCP have***ed up somewhere. People wouldn't pend the massive amount of isk , if they didnt have it.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:13:00 - [57] Originally by: Vina Originally by: MysticNZ lol what's the matter, got no isk? Seriously... enough of the t2 crying. Don't buy the things if you cannot afford it, if you can then sush. lol I ahve plenty of money. THe problem is with random people in eve suddenly getting 35b blueprints for doing absolutely nothing. They did not deserve it in any way. If tech 2 bpos were available to everyone who put in the time and effort to aqcuire one, I wouldn't mind paying the retarded prices, cause at least they worked their ass off to get the bpo. Not just click 1 button and some weeks later are suddenly ******* rich. Yes, and what's the alternative? Ah yes, catassing for it. Which means the people WITH the ISK will do that, and get the BPO's for free rather than payibng for them on the market. SO much better! "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:24:00 - [58] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 30/04/2006 13:24:57 Originally by: Tommy X Originally by: Dark Shikari Tech 2 shouldn't be a grind. The current system is fine--its totally random, and gives everyone a fair chance. Thats the point, the current system IS NOT fair, the system needs to be designed to be alot more inclusive. Really the only way for people to really want to get involved Tech II is to earn vast sums of iskies and buy there way in. We need to move from this "I'm an instant billionaire" situation with this lottery and have it that people who want to get involved in industry can... I.e reverse engineering, research point auctions for BPCs to name a few. The current round of ***ing over tech II prices hides another major issue... in game inflation, CCP have**ed up somewhere. People wouldn't pend the massive amount of isk , if they didnt have it. I'm not talking about buying BPOs after the fact. I'm talking about the lottery. The lottery is by definition the fairest way of distributing BPOs, as it allows everyone a relatively equal chance. What do you want, an auction? Then nobody but* the rich will get BPOs. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Rawne Karrde	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:32:00 - [59] Yes the lottery sucks but I preferr it to having people just able to grind out the bpos by mission whoring all day. Then you'd be crying because the isk farmers are grinding out t2 bpos and using those to make isk, or you'd be whining its not fair that some kid who doesn't have a job can grind out t2 bpo's while your working. Its not a perfect system but it makes it so peeps with the bpo's can actually make descent profit unlike 90% of t1 stuff because not everyone and their dog can go out and get one. The only things I think they should adjust are two fold. 1). bpc's for rp's like the lp system for other agents. That would make running research agent missions worth it as you can run the missions to keep getting bpc's if you wanna go that way. 2). big word time TECHNOLOGICAL DIFFUSION. Sure SONY came out with the first "walkman" but after a while they were made by everyone and were dirt cheap. We see that with "discman" too. Heck dvd players can be had for 30 bucks these days as it seems any company can make them. This needs to happen in eve. Its silly to think that its now been over two years since the first interceptor bpo's hit the research ques and no one else has managed to figure out how to make a raptor or a crow. Most peeps seem to use the 12 month ROI on purchasing bpo's. they should start releasing another batch of t2 bpo's for each type 1 year after, then do another 6 months after and then another 3 months after (just an idea of tiem frame). Slowly the tech would be less rare, just like real life.
Zarithas	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:36:00 - [60] I think some people are misunderstanding the problem. The inflation of the T2 BPOs doesn't just mean that players will have a harder time getting them. It's just that some players will be given a T2 BPO randomly by their agent. So basically, the problem is, some people win the EVE lottery, while the rest sit in the dark. They need to either do something about the prices, or do something about the way agents give it to them (and I am not sure how they'd do that, other than just making it so they can't get them through agents). -------------------------------- Joria Klex > it's sad really cuz i know for a fact i would utterly destroy u all in RL combat
The Judas	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:38:00 - [61] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Aodha Khan If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. if you went to a car dealership, and the Car with no power locks or windows was $10000 and the one with power locks and windows was $8,950,000 which would you buy? That is the situation with tech 1/tech 2 Thats not true tho. Think about it this way. If you were in the wild west, and a gun that shot 500m cost 100$ and one that cost 10,000$ shot 600m and you often fought at that distance, what would you buy? And if you had the only gun machine that made these guns, what would you charge?
Jowen Datloran	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:40:00 - [62] Personally I like the lottery way of distributing the prints. It's the rather passive way of collecting RP's that bothers me. Luckely I remember seeing in an Oveur blog some time ago that he shared this concern. ---------------- Main as main can be.
Great Artista	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:47:00 - [63] Hey hey! I have a simple question, that means worlds to me and to many other players: Are all T2 BPO's in the game? Like all that have been released, in example: Gleam S, have they all been given away, so that none remain to other players? If no: Great, R&D agents arent useless. If yes: A lot of R&D agent farmers quit. ------------- ½Artista - One name. One legend.+ -Sloganizer.net
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 13:56:00 - [64] Originally by: Great Artista Hey hey! I have a simple question, that means worlds to me and to many other players: Are all T2 BPO's in the game? Like all that have been released, in example: Gleam S, have they all been given away, so that none remain to other players? If no: Great, R&D agents arent useless. If yes: A lot of R&D agent farmers quit. No, not all BPOS are given away. BPOs for a lot of old items are of course all released, but some newer ones are still coming out. And whenever CCP decides to release more BPOs of an old item or a new T2 item altogether, new BPOs are released through R&D agents. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Sensor Error	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:08:00 - [65] Read the link in my sig regarding t2 items. We do NOT need this thread fifteen times a day. grr. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev ARQ
Moghydin	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:16:00 - [66] Originally by: Vina One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP ****** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. Although I agree with the OP, it was strange to see that kind of post from a member of BoB, who are among the main beneficiaries of the current tech II system.
Lord Slater	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:20:00 - [67] If agents released 10 tech 2 prints for 1 item and stoped there then 3 of the bpo owners left the game ccp would just re-seed 3 more bpo's to keep them in market. Also if ccp saw a certain item wasant being produced enough them i belive they relese more Bpos to increase the base number from say 10 to 13.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:21:00 - [68] Originally by: Lord Slater Also if ccp saw a certain item wasant being produced enough them i belive they relese more Bpos to increase the base number from say 10 to 13. This unfortunately isn't really true. However, I still have my faith in CCP that they will release more HAC BPOs to make up for the vastly increased demand. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Lord Slater	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:23:00 - [69] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Lord Slater Also if ccp saw a certain item wasant being produced enough them i belive they relese more Bpos to increase the base number from say 10 to 13. This unfortunately isn't really true. However, I still have my faith in CCP that they will release more HAC BPOs to make up for the vastly increased demand. Any idea why they dont It seems a perfectly logical thing to do to me....or is it just me.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:29:00 - [70] Originally by: Lord Slater Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Lord Slater Also if ccp saw a certain item wasant being produced enough them i belive they relese more Bpos to increase the base number from say 10 to 13. This unfortunately isn't really true. However, I still have my faith in CCP that they will release more HAC BPOs to make up for the vastly increased demand. Any idea why they dont It seems a perfectly logical thing to do to me....or is it just me. They may. Its not a thing they would do on the spur of the moment--they'd have to analyze the possible consequences and debate it internally--and in addition, there's Kali to work on. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Professor McFly	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:41:00 - [71] The current system is not fair at all, with the ability to use inactive alts to accumulate research points, those running multiple accounts have a far bigger chance than the "legit" solo single character working hard for his daily rp. __________________ Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk mods - pwning sigs since 1943
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:44:00 - [72] Originally by: Professor McFly The current system is not fair at all, with the ability to use inactive alts to accumulate research points, those running multiple accounts have a far bigger chance than the "legit" solo single character working hard for his daily rp. I don't really know anyone who works "hard" for his daily RP. But this is true for anything. A miner with two accounts earns twice as much as a miner with 1 account. A 3-accounter can run 10/10s and 8/10s with the proper setups. Etc. Its hard to make it otherwise. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:45:00 - [73] The simplest way to solve it would be to change the RP system so that it requires a mission every 3/4 days. Like originally planned, when your agent contacts you asking for something, you stop getting RP. Imo. --------
Lord Slater	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:48:00 - [74] They may. Its not a thing they would do on the spur of the moment--they'd have to analyze the possible consequences and debate it internally--and in addition, there's Kali to work on. Yea this is what i thought sorry if i didnt explain myself well as i dont use tech2 yet on the account of being barly 10 days old im not too worried about it yet
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:49:00 - [75] Great, so we can have a situation where you're FORCED to pay 150 mil for science graduates or you can't get RP's. You do remember that debacle, right? "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:49:00 - [76] Originally by: The Enslaver The simplest way to solve it would be to change the RP system so that it requires a mission every 3/4 days. Like originally planned, when your agent contacts you asking for something, you stop getting RP. Imo. So everyone would be required to waste their time mission-whoring to get T2 BPOs? I have a better idea: you need to kill someone in low sec space every 3-4 days in order to get RPs. 100% of pirates agree with me that this is a great idea. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
St Dragon	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:52:00 - [77] Originally by: Maya Rkell Great, so we can have a situation where you're FORCED to pay 150 mil for science graduates or you can't get RP's. You do remember that debacle, right? Heh many of us still have nightmares about those days. ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Jinx Barker	Posted - 2006.04.30 14:55:00 - [78] Originally by: Maya Rkell Great, so we can have a situation where you're FORCED to pay 150 mil for science graduates or you can't get RP's. You do remember that debacle, right? I usually do not agree with Maya on most issues, . However, she hit this one on the head, the system as it was - was a nightmare. I think we ought to wait and see what exactly will happen with T2. This is the most emotionally charged issue in EVE, it has been for a long time.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.04.30 15:00:00 - [79] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: The Enslaver The simplest way to solve it would be to change the RP system so that it requires a mission every 3/4 days. Like originally planned, when your agent contacts you asking for something, you stop getting RP. Imo. So everyone would be required to waste their time mission-whoring to get T2 BPOs? I have a better idea: you need to kill someone in low sec space every 3-4 days in order to get RPs. 100% of pirates agree with me that this is a great idea. I'm a 0.0 PVP player, who has BPO's. Believe me, this would prevent me from ever being able to win any more. Its just the lesser of two evils... Giving away free multi-billion ISK bpo's to people for such a minimal amount of effort is rediculous. --------
Olivin	Posted - 2006.04.30 15:00:00 - [80] Originally by: Tommy X Originally by: Dark Shikari Tech 2 shouldn't be a grind. The current system is fine--its totally random, and gives everyone a fair chance. Thats the point, the current system IS NOT fair, the system needs to be designed to be alot more inclusive. Really the only way for people to really want to get involved Tech II is to earn vast sums of iskies and buy there way in. We need to move from this "I'm an instant billionaire" situation with this lottery and have it that people who want to get involved in industry can... I.e reverse engineering, research point auctions for BPCs to name a few. Current system IS FAIR. Not fair would be when every muppet can start T2 shop. Although, if you have even a very little brain, you can make money in T2 with very little effort/money, for example: 1. Buy BPC and open a T2 shop = work for it 2. Start research projects = wait for it. 3. Come to forums and tell about your problems with T2 = whine for it. Obviously, option #3 degrades you to the level of spoiled five year old who was declined with the new fancy toy. And you know what? Suck it up, because nobody cares. Olivin
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2006.04.30 15:32:00 - [81] Easier fix wud seem to me that ccp kept track of average prices of t2 items and release more copies of those bpos that yeld more than so much. - Gob (my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p)
MortyM	Posted - 2006.04.30 15:37:00 - [82] Originally by: Dark Shikari The lottery is by definition the fairest way of distributing BPOs, as it allows everyone a relatively equal chance. What do you want, an auction? Then nobody but the rich will get BPOs. lol ? How would you feel if your boss of your rl job would decide that he would no longer pay out regular salaries, but would have a lottery at the end of each month, where the part time mailboy would have the chance of walking away with everything and the senior project manager who put in dozens hours of overtime can end up with no cash at all this month. That would be fair right ? Everybody has an equal chance. You should get rewarded for the amount of effort you put in, and not for the amount of luck you have. I think the current lotery system is completely retarded. Systems based on luck suck, if you win it doesn't mean anything because you haven't worked for it, and if you don't win you only get frustrated about your lack of luck.
Lord Slater	Posted - 2006.04.30 15:39:00 - [83] Originally by: MortyM Originally by: Dark Shikari The lottery is by definition the fairest way of distributing BPOs, as it allows everyone a relatively equal chance. What do you want, an auction? Then nobody but the rich will get BPOs. lol ? How would you feel if your boss of your rl job would decide that he would no longer pay out regular salaries, but would have a lottery at the end of each month, where the part time mailboy would have the chance of walking away with everything and the senior project manager who put in dozens hours of overtime can end up with no cash at all this month. That would be fair right ? Everybody has an equal chance. You should get rewarded for the amount of effort you put in, and not for the amount of luck you have. I think the current lotery system is completely retarded. Systems based on luck suck, if you win it doesn't mean anything because you haven't worked for it, and if you don't win you only get frustrated about your lack of luck. Wrong thing to compare with m8 Try comparing the Blueprint lottery to the Nationall lottery
Tharrn	Posted - 2006.04.30 15:59:00 - [84] The system may work but it is drop dead boring and unimaginative - in fact like most industrial stuff (mining... how on erath can people stand mining ice NOT afk?) that mostly looks like it has been added as an afterthought to all the cool PvP guff :P R&D is not a real 'career' as it is 100% passive unless you are a masochist actually running the daily missions, which are drop dead boring, too. A more involved, active researching process would be cool but will never happen as it's not cool PvP guff for the cool big boys who play 'the real game' :P I'll not complain - got three BPOs with about zero effort so far. Not the hottest ones but they still pay the bills. Now recruiting!
MortyM	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:01:00 - [85] Originally by: Lord Slater Originally by: MortyM Originally by: Dark Shikari The lottery is by definition the fairest way of distributing BPOs, as it allows everyone a relatively equal chance. What do you want, an auction? Then nobody but the rich will get BPOs. lol ? How would you feel if your boss of your rl job would decide that he would no longer pay out regular salaries, but would have a lottery at the end of each month, where the part time mailboy would have the chance of walking away with everything and the senior project manager who put in dozens hours of overtime can end up with no cash at all this month. That would be fair right ? Everybody has an equal chance. You should get rewarded for the amount of effort you put in, and not for the amount of luck you have. I think the current lotery system is completely retarded. Systems based on luck suck, if you win it doesn't mean anything because you haven't worked for it, and if you don't win you only get frustrated about your lack of luck. Wrong thing to compare with m8 Try comparing the Blueprint lottery to the Nationall lottery The difference is that a fundamental part of the game's economics are based on the lottery. If you wanna play in a lottery ingame, then there is the BIG one. To base the industry on it is just stupid. This is supposed to be a pvp game, where players compete with each other, how can you compete with other people in a lottery ? We might as awell just roll some dice to apoint somebody winner of EvE
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:02:00 - [86] Originally by: Vina One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP **** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. OMG TEH SKIE IZ FALLING!@!!!!1!!!!elventy!!1 I take it you've never looked at cap charger II costs and profit margin? Originally by:** Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Lord Slater	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:05:00 - [87] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Vina One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP ****** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. OMG TEH SKIE IZ FALLING!@!!!!1!!!!elventy!!1 I take it you've never looked at cap charger II costs and profit margin? GGGRRRR i wish i had a cap recharger 2 BPO for my Apoc then refitting it would cost me less.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:08:00 - [88] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Originally by: Vina Originally by: Aodha Khan If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. if you went to a car dealership, and the Car with no power locks or windows was $10000 and the one with power locks and windows was $8,950,000 which would you buy? That is the situation with tech 1/tech 2 Actually, in terms applicable to you, it would be the difference between shagging a cat, and shagging a catgirl. ______________________________________________________ Account Reactivated
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:11:00 - [89] Well yeah, I wish I had a Cap Charger II BPO so I could sell it for about 100bil or more, and buy half a dozen BPOS i'd get more use out of (of course this would be after I made myself a few hundred cap IIs for personal use). Anyways, this thread, and the whining and arguing in it will not change ANYTHING. CCP has already said what they're going to do to help fix the problem. And besides, I don't want to hear people who can *** a complex for billions of isk to * about others making easy money. I'm not talking about the 10/01s alliances use, but the 8-9s, maybe even the 7s, which someone could run easily on 1-2 people, and walk away a few hundred mil richer, and can do it like clockwork. Just because someone else's isk machine runs alittle eaier doesn't mean you aren't able to churn that money out easier than most others. Not to mention T2 sellers aren't getting isk out of nowhere, they're just aquiring existing isk. Originally by:** Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Odorless	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:23:00 - [90] What would you ppl think would hapen if everyone that grinds missions for RP would be guaranteed to get tech2 BPO/BPC? I sure as hell wouldn't buy a single HAC/Recon or whatever anymore if i could get them for "free". But hey... maybe that's just me
Arkanor	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:26:00 - [91] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Aodha Khan If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. if you went to a car dealership, and the Car with no power locks or windows was $10000 and the one with power locks and windows was $8,950,000 which would you buy? That is the situation with tech 1/tech 2 It's more like going to a car dealership with $30,000,000 and then deciding which one to buy (out of that situation) What else are you going to spend the money on? ________________________________________________ Originally by: Kadrush I want a Death Star to mine Veldspar Yes I made the pic before I saw this
MortyM	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:35:00 - [92] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And besides, I don't want to hear people who can *** a complex for billions of isk to *** about others making easy money. I'm not talking about the 10/01s alliances use, but the 8-9s, maybe even the 7s, which someone could run easily on 1-2 people, and walk away a few hundred mil richer, and can do it like clockwork. Just because someone else's isk machine runs alittle eaier doesn't mean you aren't able to churn that money out easier than most others. Complexes are great isk making machines yes, but ever wondered why we are able to run them ? Because we claim, own and protect the space they are in. Don't like it ? Then come kick us out You have to work hard to be able to run complexes, and then you still have to run them too to acctually get any isk out of them. Unlike the lottery the complexes are all about player competition, you just gotta beat the other people to them. The lottery just drops a prize of a couple bill on some random players head. Make the BPO's go to whoever is willing to work the hardest for them and you would have a much fairer system, and it would acctually bring competition and fun to the research area.
Translution	Posted - 2006.04.30 16:43:00 - [93] I think the tec 2 situation is fine.... its the build times for some iteams that make them so ubber expensive. Besides how many tec 2 producers actually setup their bpos to build constantly ie put some in oven built.. take out put in again. I know i dont with mine cos there is not enough selling... Blue print copying is no longer viable really ... takes longer to copy in some cases then to build. maybe if that was addressed that would lower prices.
Ixianus	Posted - 2006.04.30 17:20:00 - [94] Edited by: Ixianus on 30/04/2006 17:21:30 Yeah, I got to page 2 and decided "** this" and came back here, cause its a repeat of the same crap complaints over and over again. The current TII system is quite good, thats not to say that things couldnt be done to improve it. Individuals who invest more time should face better odds than individuals who simply let the agents run on their own devices, perhaps there should be a funding level option? That would be nice and realistic and also gimp the odds far in favor of individuals who are already very wealthy. The future will most likely bring improvements of this type, or who knows, maybe all the *ing will get the devs to cave in and put them on the npc market, thus eliminating the primary impetus of producing techII at all when the profit margin drops to 1%. Theres nothing in here that isnt baseless whining. The same people that say "ohhh noeeeeesssssss I just ** myself that bpo cost 400328billion isk" would be beyond happy if they got a bpo themselves. The funny thing I think is that even if they do revise the system there will still be 400000 whiners in here saying "ohh noes I ran my missions and didnt get a bpo cry." If you want to play the TII game go out and invest the considerable time into skills, agents, and potentially missions that are required and then wait.
Nafri	Posted - 2006.04.30 17:33:00 - [95] tech2 is as player driven as agent system. For a player driven market, there needs to be supply and demand. Atm we have open demand, but the supply is artificial limited thx to the strange lottery. atm we have tech2 oligopols meeting a increasing demand, perfect situation to make insane money Summertime - Campingtime!
Professor McFly	Posted - 2006.04.30 17:49:00 - [96] Originally by: Odorless What would you ppl think would hapen if everyone that grinds missions for RP would be guaranteed to get tech2 BPO/BPC? I sure as hell wouldn't buy a single HAC/Recon or whatever anymore if i could get them for "free". But hey... maybe that's just me Then how the hell do navy ships still sell for so much money? __________________ Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk mods - pwning sigs since 1943
VonKaplanek III	Posted - 2006.04.30 17:59:00 - [97] Luck being the determining factor and passively accumulating points combined with the alt situation seems to be the problem here...
Temi	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:00:00 - [98] I find it funny how 90% of those who think the t2 market is borked dont have a bpo, and how 90% of those who think it works just fine does not have one. Spelling errors ahoy..
Deadzone	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:05:00 - [99] Same old problem....and IMHO same solution...that CCP doesnt want to implement. Get rid of all the damn BPOs! Turn everything into COPIES and continuously have agents handing them out, NPCs in places drop small run copies, have missions give them out as LP rewards. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. And yes, for all those people who have BPOs..well...you wont get any sympathy here since this is the only REAL way to fix the system. Something needs to be sacraficed to fix the whole bloody thing...so suck it up. And before you say anything..my corp has several T2 prints. But in order to fix a clusterf*cked system, I would give em up in a heartbeat; if it meant things would come to a head and everything would be fixed. DZ Vice-Admiral Military Division Phoenix Propulsion Laboratories
Moghydin	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:08:00 - [100] The current lottery system is not good, that's for sure. But as I think more about this, I come to a conclusion that it's one of the least evils. Imagine a situation where a cooperative effort and planning would be needed to get a BPO. Would that imaginary situation be more fair? I think it would. But that way, most of the BPO's would end in the hands of several big entities, and ordinary ppl would have no chance whatsoever to enter that tech II production. Would it be better for the game itself? I think it wouldn't. So, with all the drawbacks, the lottery is one of the few ways to at least try to evenly distribute the BPO's (some of these BPO's btw, are not only ISK machines, but items of strategical advantage for some ppl). Of course, some ppl sell the BPO's, but everyone at least gets a chance to enter the tech II industry, which in other case would be a closed elite club.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:08:00 - [101] Yes, I suppose it is easy to be blase when you stole your T2 BPO's. But anyway... It dosn't take a brain surgeon to realise that most T2 producers will quit if you shaft them that way (massive loss on their investment), and those which continue now have to add ever-changing BPC prices into T2 shipcosts...not to mention never any fixed delivery, AND loads will be produced by people who can't make a profit, and and... Sigh. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:15:00 - [102] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Originally by: Vina Originally by: Aodha Khan If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. if you went to a car dealership, and the Car with no power locks or windows was $10000 and the one with power locks and windows was $8,950,000 which would you buy? That is the situation with tech 1/tech 2 Actually, in terms applicable to you, it would be the difference between shagging a cat, and shagging a catgirl. Thats a lot funnier than it should be. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Caanan	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:17:00 - [103] 33b isk? That's not as surprising to me as that Hulk BPO that sold for 82 something bil isk.
Deadzone	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:19:00 - [104] Originally by: Maya Rkell Yes, I suppose it is easy to be blase when you stole your T2 BPO's. But anyway... It dosn't take a brain surgeon to realise that most T2 producers will quit if you shaft them that way (massive loss on their investment), and those which continue now have to add ever-changing BPC prices into T2 shipcosts...not to mention never any fixed delivery, AND loads will be produced by people who can't make a profit, and and... Sigh. You know Maya, you don't know $hit about what happened. I was there..I was part of everything that happened so maybe you should keep your pie hole shut unless you were involved. Which, looking at your corp marker...you weren't. If you have a problem, take it off the forums and stop trying to troll off-topic. DZ Vice-Admiral Military Division Phoenix Propulsion Laboratories
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:28:00 - [105] Originally by: Deadzone Same old problem....and IMHO same solution...that CCP doesnt want to implement. Get rid of all the damn BPOs! Turn everything into COPIES and continuously have agents handing them out, NPCs in places drop small run copies, have missions give them out as LP rewards. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. And yes, for all those people who have BPOs..well...you wont get any sympathy here since this is the only REAL way to fix the system. Something needs to be sacraficed to fix the whole bloody thing...so suck it up. So, basically the entire economy should be destroyed in order to "fix" a problem that doesn't exist? [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:28:00 - [106] I know precisely what happened (I've heard it from both sides, in detail). I know precisely why you made your descision, and in some ways I agree with it. However, it remains, regardless, a blatent and absolute case of corp theft, and is has a direct bearing on your attitude on BPO ownership. If YOU feel the need to troll and flame, thats your issue. I was pointing out a simple fact. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:29:00 - [107] Those of you who think the T2 lottery is fine as a system are just **** in the head... It's CCP's biggest gaff and you think it's fine... ***** retards, all of you... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.30 18:30:00 - [108] Yes, and replacing it with a system where the T2 corps wouldn't even have to PAY for their T2 BPO's (which is the sum of basically every other suggestion here) would work SO much better. Snarf. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Ebedar	Posted - 2006.04.30 19:12:00 - [109] I'm inclined to agree with DS on most (but not all) of his points here. Personally I'd prefer a system that rewarded those who regularly run the missions a lot more (i.e. gave them significantly more RP) to increase their chances of winning. Perhaps give them a significant RP boost every tenth mission they complete (rather than every ten consecutive missions), e.g. when they completed that mission they would get 5x the normal amount of RPs for that day. If that isn't enough, maybe tone down the number of RPs you gain passively/reduce the daily RP you receive by a certain percentage if you don't do missions for a specified period of time. The system is far from perfect but IMO it's better to tweak it than to completely re-write it from scratch and attempt to castigate existing Tech II BPO owners. People get caught up in the idea that anyone who has a Tech II BPO is automatically a billionaire, which is a load of balls. For every person who owns a HAC BPO there are dozens who end up with BPOs for items like 50mm Reinforced Steel Plates II or some useless ammo type. Intel for sale The Dominix: A Documentary
Dirtball	Posted - 2006.04.30 19:21:00 - [110] the problem is 90% of npcrs use ravens and 80% of lvl 4 agent runners use cerb so that mod should be insanly priced cause all the cearbears are buying the crap out of it
Moghydin	Posted - 2006.04.30 19:24:00 - [111] Originally by: Dirtball the problem is 90% of npcrs use ravens and 80% of lvl 4 agent runners use cerb so that mod should be insanly priced cause all the cearbears are buying the crap out of it You're right, Cerb is the only HAC that is overpriced
Jaddor	Posted - 2006.04.30 19:25:00 - [112] The problem is that it gives power (money is power in this game) to corps/alliances through luck and not ability. Thats a bad thing for a game like this. You shouldn't 'win eve' because of your luck with some BPO's and a system the devs have admited is flawed.
Dirtball	Posted - 2006.04.30 19:30:00 - [113] Originally by: Moghydin Originally by: Dirtball the problem is 90% of npcrs use ravens and 80% of lvl 4 agent runners use cerb so that mod should be insanly priced cause all the cearbears are buying the crap out of it You're right, Cerb is the only HAC that is overpriced bcu2 bpo thread mod = something you fit on your ship I said nothing about hac prices as I dont care cause I'm in cosmic fusion so I never die.
Drayce	Posted - 2006.04.30 19:56:00 - [114] Where's Kayosani so I can slap him upside the head I never took you to be the jealous type mate; what with all your alts, isk and combined skillpoints that you continually boast about I'd have thought you had an alt that was pulling in insane amounts of tech II BPOs. The way it is run at the moment is as a lottery. The way lotteries are run, someone has an incredibly low chance of claiming a jackpot for a small investment and a small amount of work (if you even count walking to the lotto shop to pick up a ticket work at all) with your chances of winning increasing depending on how many tickets you have purchased. Eves tech II lottery seems to be working perfectly in this sense and all I can see you complaining about is that it wasn't you that won. As has already been mentioned, Kali will introduce reverse engineering to the game and I can see this turning not just tech II but production itself on its head. Have patience for a couple months to wait and see how it plays out or hey, you could always stop playing Eve if it's too broken for you
Vina	Posted - 2006.04.30 21:16:00 - [115] Edited by: Vina on 30/04/2006 21:17:20 I'm not jealous. You don't understand. I have made 15b isk off 2 tech 2 BPOs. not the point. The point is it is the highest paying thing you can get in the game, it also requires NO EFFORT or investment of time or money to get. it is pure luck. THAT is what is wrong. Tech 2 bpos should be available to anyone who wants to work thier ass off for months to get it. not someone like Leno who is just retardedly lucky and gets a nighthawk BPO for 10,000 RP. Quote: Have patience for a couple months to wait and see how it plays out or hey, you could always stop playing Eve if it's too broken for you oh I will definately quit eve if tech 3 requires a tech 2 BPO. ----------------------------------- btw, threatening to close 1 account really hurt my eyes. - xaioguai
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.30 21:43:00 - [116] I doubt T3 (corp branded) will need T2. Probly need a POS mind you... "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
fuze	Posted - 2006.04.30 21:49:00 - [117] Originally by: Vina oh I will definately quit eve if tech 3 requires a tech 2 BPO. Can I have your stuff? Eve is all about drinking beer and pushing buttons.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:02:00 - [118] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 30/04/2006 23:05:50 Originally by: MortyM Originally by: Malthros Zenobia And besides, I don't want to hear people who can *** a complex for billions of isk to * about others making easy money. I'm not talking about the 10/01s alliances use, but the 8-9s, maybe even the 7s, which someone could run easily on 1-2 people, and walk away a few hundred mil richer, and can do it like clockwork. Just because someone else's isk machine runs alittle eaier doesn't mean you aren't able to churn that money out easier than most others. Complexes are great isk making machines yes, but ever wondered why we are able to run them ? Because we claim, own and protect the space they are in. Don't like it ? Then come kick us out Wouldn't you rather watch me try to run one in my new Raven, and get torn apart by the NPCs? Besides, people with T2 BPOs protect their investments by making sure they never go anywhere unless they have massive escort defense of some sort. edit: don't get me wrong morty, being a somewhat poor character, I'm not a big fan of high-rpiced T2, and TBH, I think it's utterly retarded that an NPC company would give out a BPO to a CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY, simply because someone sat in a station for awhile. I think all current BPOS need to turn into copies, and ONLY copies should get seeded, with ammount varying by type. T2 ammo would, ofcourse, be the most easily obtained BPO, since you burn through it so fast. And why don't NPCs sell ANY T2? Is CCP going to try to tell us that Lai Dai doesn't want or need to sell Cerbs? Originally by:** Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:11:00 - [119] As a reasonable estimate, double the price of T2 if it's only BPC's. Think about how you've complicated the supply chain, and the on-off nature building it will become. Beyond the mass quiting of T2 producers. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Torze	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:15:00 - [120] It seems to me that the biggest problem with T2 (besides people whining about the prices...most of which would charge the same if they had the bpo) is how long it takes to make the items. If the production times were sped up, then the prices would come down.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:22:00 - [121] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/04/2006 23:25:37 Originally by: Torze It seems to me that the biggest problem with T2 (besides people whining about the prices...most of which would charge the same if they had the bpo) is how long it takes to make the items. If the production times were sped up, then the prices would come down. This is how T2 are priced. Builders make and sell 8M. Resellers buy and resell at 10M. Greedy ones resell at 12M. Buyers buy at 12M. Next batch, builders make and sell at 12M. Greedy resellers buy and resell at 16M. Buyers buy at 16M. Repeat vicious cycle and cry. Dont like it, dont buy. BCS T2, 3 months ago 10M, now 7M. Soon to be 5M and below. ---------------- May 1st - We love Khatred day. RecruitMe@NOINT!
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:25:00 - [122] Originally by: Maya Rkell As a reasonable estimate, double the price of T2 if it's only BPC's. Think about how you've complicated the supply chain, and the on-off nature building it will become. Beyond the mass quiting of T2 producers. Yep, if anything that would make things even worse. I don't think people see how much is involved in building the T2 stuff. -=====-
Balklanac	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:28:00 - [123] The biggest problem with T2 market is poor people. /jabs his pitchfork into a T2 producer -------------------------------
Snake Jankins	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:38:00 - [124] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 30/04/2006 23:42:05 Originally by: Torze It seems to me that the biggest problem with T2 (besides people whining about the prices...most of which would charge the same if they had the bpo) is how long it takes to make the items. If the production times were sped up, then the prices would come down. This has already been suggested. See Oveur's response: Link Btw. imho that whole old thread is more informative than the recent ones. Ok mainly due to Oveur responses and telling something about what's planned for Kali. Personally I have some trust in the devs and am more relaxed about the whole issue than it seems. I'm almost in the mood to reply only with one word to these t2 threads and that's 'Kali'. ___________ 'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.'
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.04.30 23:45:00 - [125] I think nafri hit the nail on the head tbh. For the most part the industry is fine, however the supply basically has a hard limit while the demand grows as more players join eve and their skills increase. The new system coming in will hopefully address that by making supply more flexible through allowing players to trade RPs for bpcs and thus create room for supplies to go up. We'll just have to wait and see. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Lo3d3R	Posted - 2006.05.01 00:01:00 - [126] Originally by: Vina One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP ****** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. i agree, its getting really crazy, to people who say supply&demand i say, getaclue&doesntworklikethisinagame ____________________ Eating Noobs
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.01 00:12:00 - [127] Why not? What's so inherently SPECIAL about it, compared to any other economy? That's right, not all that much... "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.05.01 00:15:00 - [128] Originally by: Lo3d3R Originally by: Vina One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP ****** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. i agree, its getting really crazy, to people who say supply&demand i say, getaclue&doesntworklikethisinagame Sure it works. However, like real life, the supply or the demand might be at a level which isn't very good for prices... Supply and demand is a law of economics--it doesn't somehow "fail" in EVE. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
fisty	Posted - 2006.05.01 01:02:00 - [129] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: MysticNZ Yeah, they had to run the missions all day in and out. I wish they did but it's not true. Running missions should accumulate RP or something but what actually happens is that they get RP per day and I beleive they get extra if they run at least one mission per day. So there are people who literally clicked a button, abandoned the agent and months later recieved a blueprint for a HAC. hehe.... reicived 2 t2 ship bpo in a year like that...:D YEH keep em coming ciao
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.05.01 02:56:00 - [130] Originally by: Torze It seems to me that the biggest problem with T2 (besides people whining about the prices...most of which would charge the same if they had the bpo) is how long it takes to make the items. If the production times were sped up, then the prices would come down. If I could make 100 Cerbs a Day, I'd still sell them at the highest price people would pay, so would any other sane business(wo)man. Originally by: Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Leno	Posted - 2006.05.01 06:08:00 - [131] Originally by: Vina Edited by: Vina on 30/04/2006 08:06:21 I missed that one. Ultimately it is not the prices that are what I am talking about, it's the fact that people who are undeserving get so much wealth. Tech 2 bpo requires no work to get. People like Leno who get nighthawk BPOs for 10000 RP... it's ridiculous. That was 23k rp thank you very much! --------------- RIP - Smoske, My Friend
Moghydin	Posted - 2006.05.01 06:10:00 - [132] Originally by: Wild Rho The new system coming in will hopefully address that by making supply more flexible through allowing players to trade RPs for bpcs and thus create room for supplies to go up. We'll just have to wait and see. Very bad solution tbh. Current BPO owners will not spend their RP's on BPC's, they'll wait for true BPO's, thus the current "club" members will accumulate even more BPO's, while others will burn their RP's on limited run BPC's.
Moghydin	Posted - 2006.05.01 06:10:00 - [133] Edited by: Moghydin on 01/05/2006 06:10:39 double post 4tl
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.05.01 06:28:00 - [134] Originally by: Moghydin Originally by: Wild Rho The new system coming in will hopefully address that by making supply more flexible through allowing players to trade RPs for bpcs and thus create room for supplies to go up. We'll just have to wait and see. Very bad solution tbh. Current BPO owners will not spend their RP's on BPC's, they'll wait for true BPO's, thus the current "club" members will accumulate even more BPO's, while others will burn their RP's on limited run BPC's. You're assuming more bpos will be randomly seeded. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
James Snowscoran	Posted - 2006.05.01 08:17:00 - [135] There's a distinct lack of constructive posts here. You could: -Make the research missions involve more work (ie not just paying some random mission runner for his science graduates) by incorporating deadspace missions requiring the mini-professions of hacking (infiltrate competitors to steal tech) and archaeology (find old artifacts that can be scrutinized to provide clues as to how to make something work) -Implement reverse engineering to prevent ship and module prices from inflating too drastically due to increased demand - Kill the RP accumulation without running missions, and, to prevent their market price from increasing drastically, start seeding science graduates/homeless/slaves through pirate LP offers as well as making pirate factions sell them. -----
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.05.01 10:02:00 - [136] I think the cost of nearly most tech2 items/ships is spot-on at this time. No meddling required at all (at least, if you meddle do it price-neutrally). Exceptions: underused and overused module classes. Micro smartbombs bpo's are not worth the room they take up in your inventory, and high-demand item bpo's are too rare relative to the structural demand for HAC's. I'd say CCP simply needs to check which items go for what average price in relation to their build cost. Then they could try to factor in things like alliances keeping bpo's for internal production only, or bpo's held out of production in total on purpose, and quantify that effect to some extent. The items most extremely expensive or inexpensive need some meddling, that's all. Just seed some HAC and BCS II etc. bpc's to research agents and we can all go and forget about this stupid topic once and for all. What we do not need however is HAC's for 30 million. Exclusivity is good to some extent, since it gives a target and acts as a use for all the isk we generate. Power to the players !
Lo3d3R	Posted - 2006.05.01 11:14:00 - [137] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Lo3d3R Originally by: Vina One just sold for this. A module that costs like 200-400k to build probably, and someone finds it profitable to buy the bpo for 33b isk. If this doesn't show just how much CCP ****** up tech 2.... man I dunno. whatever. tech 2 will be the end of this game. i agree, its getting really crazy, to people who say supply&demand i say, getaclue&doesntworklikethisinagame Sure it works. However, like real life, the supply or the demand might be at a level which isn't very good for prices... Supply and demand is a law of economics--it doesn't somehow "fail" in EVE. well imo you are not right, because of the fact the "power" you have with the BPO's is like beeing GOD, in the real world worldwar III would have started, a game is for fun, sure you can start a war with a corp... etc etc.... the BPO thing is just unbalanced you evil robot slavetrader. ____________________ Eating Noobs
Lo3d3R	Posted - 2006.05.01 11:18:00 - [138] Edited by: Lo3d3R on 01/05/2006 11:18:43 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Torze It seems to me that the biggest problem with T2 (besides people whining about the prices...most of which would charge the same if they had the bpo) is how long it takes to make the items. If the production times were sped up, then the prices would come down. If I could make 100 Cerbs a Day, I'd still sell them at the highest price people would pay, so would any other sane business(wo)man. if you were to make 100 of them, and your fellow BPO holders would do also, then the market starts working. suddenly 8 players (8 BPO's right ?) start putting 50 Cerbs a day on the market in two trade hubs (e.g. Jita, Oursulaert), now your stock would rise to insane hights. price competition would be unavoidable, prices would drop (unless you have all the BPO's yourself..., wich also proves the flawed BPO system.) ____________________ Eating Noobs
Sub rose	Posted - 2006.05.01 11:58:00 - [139] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Actually, in terms applicable to you, it would be the difference between shagging a cat, and shagging a catgirl. You don't look at the mantel piece when you're pokeing the fire
343Guiltyspark	Posted - 2006.05.01 15:25:00 - [140] Originally by: Vina Originally by: Aodha Khan If someone is willing to pay it then that's what we call a 'player run market'. if you went to a car dealership, and the Car with no power locks or windows was $10000 and the one with power locks and windows was $8,950,000 which would you buy? That is the situation with tech 1/tech 2 Then just don't buy it. It is a player run market. If people wouldn't buy the uber expensive items, then the sellers would have to lower the costs. This happens in almost all MMO's. People ***** and complain about prices, yet stand in line to buy these items.
Drunk Driver	Posted - 2006.05.01 16:06:00 - [141] Whoever sold the BPO for 33 billion send me one billion right now. I need to buy some stuff.
Kaliesin	Posted - 2006.05.01 22:59:00 - [142] T2 bpo's do not just arrive at people with no effort, you have learnt specific skills, some of them long and nasty, you have done missions for the R&D corp to earn the standings for the agent, you have invested time and isk in this, for something that might pay off. Then there are the skills needed if you intend to build them, a further investment of time, skills and isk. What the moaners about the T2 system mean is, wahhhh wahhhhhwahhh wahhhh I want it, gimme gimme gimme, wahhhhhh and throw there rattles out of the pram. Mooooooooo
Daivasth	Posted - 2006.05.01 23:33:00 - [143] Originally by: Kaliesin T2 bpo's do not just arrive at people with no effort, you have learnt specific skills, some of them long and nasty, you have done missions for the R&D corp to earn the standings for the agent, you have invested time and isk in this, for something that might pay off. Then there are the skills needed if you intend to build them, a further investment of time, skills and isk. What the moaners about the T2 system mean is, wahhhh wahhhhhwahhh wahhhh I want it, gimme gimme gimme, wahhhhhh and throw there rattles out of the pram. thats like saying "OMG don't winning the lotery luck. he had to look up teh address and use huge amounts of time to find teh place to buy tickets and then he had to er... um... find out he wins and work his way to the place to claim it and... and... he put so much effort into winning 250m!!!" there is effort, and there is luck. T2 BPOs are given out based on MODIFIED LUCK. this is the major complaint, not "omg why can't i buy a cerberus for the price it was a year ago omg"
Xrak	Posted - 2006.05.02 00:57:00 - [144] It will be a "player-run" economy when the BPO's are available to anyone. Having CCP control who has the BPO's is NOT player controlled economy (and I dont mean CCP gives the BPO's out to people they like etc)
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.05.02 01:47:00 - [145] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 02/05/2006 01:47:14 You remind me of the people that will whine about not being able to drive to work when oil hits 700$ per barrel in 2 years. Sure, t2 supply is artificially limited, but then, everything is artificial in a virtual world. Consider one thing: look up the stats on a gist x-type XL booster, compare to t2. Why dont you whine that those sell for 800m? And another thing: someone obviously has 33b to spend on one BPO. The mone y is there. If there is nothing to invest (because t2 is no longer afk-moneymaking, but requires work), people will use this money for something else. A huge amount of ISK is currently tied up in the t2 cycles. Imagine it being set free... Hint: The good part about t2 BPOs is the low amount of work required to get decent profits. Nerf it, and there goes the investment / economy aspect of eve. People can make up to 100m per hour mining in 0.0, so 300m per hour tripple-logging.
Father Weebles	Posted - 2006.05.02 01:49:00 - [146] Stuff like tech2 invul fields and cap rechargers should not be 15+. People who buy those at that price are morons tbh. Tech 2 invul field should only be about 5 mil, and that's definetely reasonable. I would not like to see HACS go below 80m a pop though. Reason being is they have better resists than battleships added with some decent firepower that almost makes bs's obsolete(in small gangs, not in fleet battles or large engagements). One thing for HACs is change it to where it's insurable. 10-14 mil AF's are good its price, mabye make it 10mil max or something depending on ship of course. And make intys 5-10 mil. Again, this is in my dream world heh
abraheam	Posted - 2006.05.02 01:51:00 - [147] Edited by: abraheam on 02/05/2006 01:52:46 Everyone that doasnt think the Tech 2 BPO system is not broken is a retarded de-balled fanboy. There is no way this *est of systems isnt a broke ass game mechanic. This is a retarded nerf, and the fact that 33 billion worth of BPO can be handed out based on luck is pure stupidity. This system may have worked in Beta with 5k players, but it doasnt work with 100k. This game needs to adapt or it will suffer from this. I dont want that to happen. but if it isnt fixed all you will have left is the 100 s left in this game that actually have a tech 2 BPO(and that actually defend this system). Edit: not only is it ** but how do I honestly know it isnt fixed...I am being for real. When there are nerds that pay 1600 for a charactor for 41 million SP I wonder who they would give a hummer to for a hulk BPO.
Grash Freedom	Posted - 2006.05.02 02:02:00 - [148] Originally by: abraheam Everyone that doasnt think the Tech 2 BPO system is not broken is a retarded de-balled fanboy. There is no way this *est of systems isnt a broke ass game mechanic. This is a retarded nerf, and the fact that 33 billion worth of BPO can be handed out based on luck is pure stupidity. This system may have worked in Beta with 5k players, but it doasnt work with 100k. This game needs to adapt or it will suffer from this. I dont want that to happen. but if it isnt fixed all you will have left is the 100 *s left in this game that actually have a tech 2 BPO(and that actually defend this system). First of all since you are free to express your opinions, others are too!!!! Second, plz do not insult ppl because you think your opinion is better, you might be wrong And as a matter of fact, you are out of topic, the first poster, complains about why a bpo worth that much, not about the lottery system Its have been told a million times, that YES the lottery is a joke, i have been "lucky" 2 times, and as far as my wallet likes it, i do not, simple because its not fair "retarded de-balled fanboy" Do you have any relatives that are actually retarded? CAN YOU PPL STOP SAYING THIS WORD FFS?????????????? You are insulting, and you look like idiots when you use word related to people with special needs just to insult another person that is perfectly fine(phusicly and mentally) FFS grow up!
Leno	Posted - 2006.05.02 03:15:00 - [149] Originally by: Grash Freedom Originally by: abraheam Everyone that doasnt think the Tech 2 BPO system is not broken is a retarded de-balled fanboy. There is no way this *est of systems isnt a broke ass game mechanic. This is a retarded nerf, and the fact that 33 billion worth of BPO can be handed out based on luck is pure stupidity. This system may have worked in Beta with 5k players, but it doasnt work with 100k. This game needs to adapt or it will suffer from this. I dont want that to happen. but if it isnt fixed all you will have left is the 100 *s left in this game that actually have a tech 2 BPO(and that actually defend this system). First of all since you are free to express your opinions, others are too!!!! Second, plz do not insult ppl because you think your opinion is better, you might be wrong And as a matter of fact, you are out of topic, the first poster, complains about why a bpo worth that much, not about the lottery system Its have been told a million times, that YES the lottery is a joke, i have been "lucky" 2 times, and as far as my wallet likes it, i do not, simple because its not fair "retarded de-balled fanboy" Do you have any relatives that are actually retarded? CAN YOU PPL STOP SAYING THIS WORD FFS?????????????? You are insulting, and you look like idiots when you use word related to people with special needs just to insult another person that is perfectly fine(phusicly and mentally) FFS grow up! no kayo is just jealous of the nighthawk bpo i got --------------- RIP - Smoske, My Friend
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.05.02 04:48:00 - [150] Originally by: Kaliesin T2 bpo's do not just arrive at people with no effort, you have learnt specific skills, some of them long and nasty, you have done missions for the R&D corp to earn the standings for the agent, you have invested time and isk in this, for something that might pay off. Then there are the skills needed if you intend to build them, a further investment of time, skills and isk. Riiight... I can use Any CN agent, I want to be able to just stay docked and earn isk from their missions without ever logging in (especially because I can't login or my PC with crash). Make sense? No it doesn't. R&D should require activity, period. If you think people should be able to make research alts to just sit there and get RPs because they spent a week getting standing, then you need help. R&D is so busted it makes Windows look like bug-free software. Originally by: Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.05.02 04:50:00 - [151] Originally by: Father WeeblesOne thing for HACs is change it to where it's insurable.[/quote Insurance is based off of mineral value, and The only way you should EVER have good insurance on a T2 ship is if you're buying them at cost. Originally by: Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Eralus	Posted - 2006.05.03 02:28:00 - [152] Edited by: Eralus on 03/05/2006 02:32:06 Man, it's fun to read 6 pages of people TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT! The problem is not that Tech 2 is expensive. That's a good thing. The problem is not that Tech 2 takes long to produce, making the supply small - that's also a good thing. They're Ueber items, they should be in short supply. The problem is not that the BPOs sell for 33 billion. If that's what the market is, that's what the market is. Nobody wants Tech 2 to be free - in fact, that's exactly the problem: The problem is that the largest rewards in the game are randomly assigned to players for free. If you have to work to mine minerals, work to kill rats, work to trade goods, work to player kill, work to build outposts... Why are the best items in the game given out for nearly nothing? That's stupid. Instead of being very easy for a few lucky players to get and nearly impossible for everyone else to get, Tech 2 stuff should be nearly impossible for EVERYONE to get. That's the problem. The existence of a lottery MEANS THE GAME IS BROKEN. Period. If the game were not broken (there was a real research career path and a real manufacturing career path) you wouldn't need a lottery, because the game would limit the amount of tech 2 stuff because so few people would have the necessary skills to research it and so few people would have the necessary skills to manufacture it. But since everybody can get those skills easily, the only way left to distribute limitted TEch 2 BPO's is the lottery. This isn't coming from someone sitting on a Tech 2 BPO. I've been in the game 2 months. I started playing because I liked the concept of a player market and being able to do things OTHER Than combat. Like have a bonafide research character. Turns out, that was a pile of crap, because after a few months of training research skills you've got the same skills as pretty much EVERYBODY else and nothing left to do but turn into a combat character. And if that's the case, why blow 3 months on research I could have spent actually starting to be the combat char I'm going to be forced to train to be anyway? If the best-researched items in the game are just as easily attainable by someone who has put very little effort into having a research char as someone who has put a lot of effort into it, there is no reward for being a research char and no real research career. If the best items in teh game can be manufactured just as easily by anybody as anyone else, there is no reward for having an indusrial char and there is no real industrial career in the game. As is borne out by most everyone seeming to have a combat character and a research alt. I don't care that BPOs are expensive. I care that there's no challenging way to play a research char when the only thing a research char can do is log in once and start research and then wait to win a lottery. Summary: Having a character who can research or manufacture Tech 2 ships should be just as hard as having a character who can fly tech 2 ships. If it were, there'd be no need for a lottery.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.03 03:25:00 - [153] Great example of this are the Cloaks. 10m / 25m / 45m Proto / improved / covert Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs. Evemail me if interested - I think
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2006.05.03 03:28:00 - [154] It annoys me that the whole thing hinges on agent standings to being with. I HATE agent missions and i will not run them even for the chance at a 35b bpo. There, i just contributed nothing to your thread

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