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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2011.11.30 12:38:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ellin Einher wrote:Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Give them some PG and let me plant a few static defenses, then I wont complain about anything in this expansion :). That way people that REALLY wants to take them down will still be able, and the people just messing around will have a harder time.
Of course if people want it dead it will die, just like anything in Eve. Even the best defended PoS will fall, even in null sec will go boom if people want it dead enough. POCO's are still VERY soft targets, even if you defend them, if they are wanted dead, they will die.
I agree, giving it some PG for guns it would be nice and make it more desirable to set up as it wouldn't be such a soft target. It would still be an easy target, but it may get soem fun KMs |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.30 12:56:00 -
[122] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Get worked out deals before hand, then destroy the interbus CO, put up your own and have the mercs on call if it gets reinforced. They always love blowing stuff up and nothing is better than people that don't expect it.
I don't think its a case of thinking outside the box. Funding mercs to defend POCO's would probably cost far more then the materials coming from the planet would be worth. Indy corps with extra isk in the wallet can probably find alot better ways to use that isk .
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Callduron
18
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Posted - 2011.11.30 13:05:00 -
[123] - Quote
Amon Sono wrote:Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Get worked out deals before hand, then destroy the interbus CO, put up your own and have the mercs on call if it gets reinforced. They always love blowing stuff up and nothing is better than people that don't expect it. I don't think its a case of thinking outside the box. Funding mercs to defend POCO's would probably cost far more then the materials coming from the planet would be worth. Indy corps with extra isk in the wallet can probably find alot better ways to use that isk .
You only need them defended when they are reinforced. Just wait till you get the evemails, arrange a couple of hours worth of defence and a couple of reppers. There no need to pay mercs 24/7/365. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.30 13:43:00 -
[124] - Quote
[/quote]
You only need them defended when they are reinforced. Just wait till you get the evemails, arrange a couple of hours worth of defence and a couple of reppers. There no need to pay mercs 24/7/365.[/quote]
Yes , I understand you don't need 24/7 defense. My point still stands however. The isk made off PI on a single low sec planet is not very much at all. Low and High sec PI is more a hobby then serious isk making venture. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
7
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Posted - 2011.11.30 14:36:00 -
[125] - Quote
Last I priced mercs (that I considered reputable and able to put together a decent defense of something) it was a billion isk a day, rounded up to the nearest day. Tell me how the ability to not need them 24/7 impacts the cost? |
Tam Tran
LankTech Universal Paranoia Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.11.30 14:46:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Well ya better start getting defensive about this 'feature' as it just another heavy handed attempt by CCP to get folks into the low/null sec PvP.
This KILLS the hi-sec ONLY corps who want PoS's for production/RP/whatever...now its low-sec/null PI where you will inevitability be engaged in PvP and have to defend of take over a POCO(s).
Please revise this change or explain how you CCP see this change IMPROVE gameplay for ALL and that it is simply not just a forcing PvP lowsec/null issue if you want a PoS that doesn't bankrupt you just exporting materials to keep your PoS running.
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pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
115
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Posted - 2011.11.30 14:58:00 -
[127] - Quote
Tam Tran wrote:CCP Omen wrote: I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income. Well ya better start getting defensive about this 'feature' as it just another heavy handed attempt by CCP to get folks into the low/null sec PvP.This KILLS the hi-sec ONLY corps who want PoS's for production/RP/whatever...now its low-sec/null PI where you will inevitability be engaged in PvP and have to defend of take over a POCO(s). Please revise this change or explain how you CCP see this change IMPROVE gameplay for ALL and that it is simply not just a forcing PvP lowsec/null issue if you want a PoS that doesn't bankrupt you just exporting materials to keep your PoS running.
You quoted Omen, so I don't see why you're so confused. The tax change makes POCOs actually potentially useful and important, which encourages a long-standing Eve Online game design principle: highsec is lowest risk, lowest reward. Now highsec has unavoidable taxes, while lowsec is the land of opportunity and nullsec alliances get to do as they please with tax rates. POCOs and PI will now be catalysts for space battles, while remaining low effort passive income.
In the meantime, people running no-skill highsec alts that pay for their own PLEXes each month just getting PI goo from planets will have to wait a bit for the market value of PI goods to equilibrate to higher prices in order to get the same profits as before. While you wait for that I recommend acquainting yourself with "flying in space" -- maybe even in lowsec. I hear some fun new Tier 3 BCs were just introduced. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:20:00 -
[128] - Quote
pmchem wrote: You quoted Omen, so I don't see why you're so confused. The tax change makes POCOs actually potentially useful and important, which encourages a long-standing Eve Online game design principle: highsec is lowest risk, lowest reward. Now highsec has unavoidable taxes, while lowsec is the land of opportunity and nullsec alliances get to do as they please with tax rates. POCOs and PI will now be catalysts for space battles, while remaining low effort passive income.
In the meantime, people running no-skill highsec alts that pay for their own PLEXes each month just getting PI goo from planets will have to wait a bit for the market value of PI goods to equilibrate to higher prices in order to get the same profits as before. While you wait for that I recommend acquainting yourself with "flying in space" -- maybe even in lowsec. I hear some fun new Tier 3 BCs were just introduced.
Arrogance check
Dismissive attitude check
Misrepresenting what the GM said check
Lack of comprehension of affairs outside nullsec check.
Are you sure you're a goon? Because you just scored a 100% on the Band of Blowhards membership test....
Seriously, though, Omen fails to understand the repercussions of what he's talking about. Look at how many people have posted threads about this on the forum alone. You'd think that the bpcs were only sold for Aurum. The actual reaction is that high sec carebears hug highsec harder, because they perceive, just as Tam comments, that they're being forced into lowsec, something they do not want to do. So they strop producing PI items and go do something more profitable, such as mine ice or mission run.
In the mean time, lowsec continues to be a rarely used place.
The result is that T2 prices rise to 2006 levels because materials that are produced cost a fortune, and no one is using POS in high sec to manufacture items such as Tach Beam IIs, which I'm told will be in demand now.
The problem that Tam is pointing out is, that because Omen does not seem to understand, POCOs are NOT those things (other then alliance 0% tax) and probably will never be those things.
IF they're viable for small corps, then they no longer are worth space battles. Why? Because they would have to be cheap enough that one could be lost and be worth the lost profits to replace. The problem is that it would get laughed off, rather then be saved in a space battle. If they cost enough to be worth a space battle, then they would have to be profitable enough to justify the lost ships and or replacing the POCO.
However, for PI to be THAT profitable, T2 is going to have to increase in price like a ticket to a sold out concert, something that CCP has also insisted that they do not want.
So, there are a lot of mutually exclusive goals here. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
26
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Posted - 2011.11.30 15:30:00 -
[129] - Quote
Towers are cheap and people seem to fight over those.
Maybe we're missing something! |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
26
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Posted - 2011.11.30 15:30:00 -
[130] - Quote
Oh wait, its the resource people might be fighting over! Why didn't someone think of that before? |
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
7
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Posted - 2011.11.30 15:45:00 -
[131] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Oh wait, its the resource people might be fighting over! Why didn't someone think of that before?
Because there are more then five types of moon and they don't all produce exactly the same things? What they're fighting over is a monopoly on that resource, something that POCOS also do not provide, as anyone can use any POCO, they just get charged.
Fighting for a POCO makes as much sense as fighting for a spot to mine veldspar. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:58:00 -
[132] - Quote
" You quoted Omen, so I don't see why you're so confused. The tax change makes POCOs actually potentially useful and important, which encourages a long-standing Eve Online game design principle: highsec is lowest risk, lowest reward. Now highsec has unavoidable taxes, while lowsec is the land of opportunity and nullsec alliances get to do as they please with tax rates. POCOs and PI will now be catalysts for space battles, while remaining low effort passive income.
In the meantime, people running no-skill highsec alts that pay for their own PLEXes each month just getting PI goo from planets will have to wait a bit for the market value of PI goods to equilibrate to higher prices in order to get the same profits as before. While you wait for that I recommend acquainting yourself with "flying in space" -- maybe even in lowsec. I hear some fun new Tier 3 BCs were just introduced. "
Low sec will indeed be the land of opportunity , for large corps only. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete with the changes. Yes the changes will be a catalyist for space battles between large corps and alliances. It will have the oppisite effect of whats intended as it will drive out all the small fry from low sec.
Low sec PI isn't a large isk maker. Done right you can pad your wallet but thats about it. Adding in the costs of POCO will wipe out what little is made. I have a pretty nice PI set up , the vast majority of which is in low sec. If I turned Eve into a second job I could probably afford a single plex per month. Low sec PI is a low effort passive income but one that doesn't generate large rewards. I think the new changes will make null sec PI alot more interesting but doesn't benefit low sec and makes high sec PI even more worthless then it is now. It will not draw people into PI it will kick people out of that aspect of eve further isolating a large segment of the comunity. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 22:10:00 -
[133] - Quote
Amon Sono wrote: Low sec will indeed be the land of opportunity , for large corps only. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete with the changes. Yes the changes will be a catalyist for space battles between large corps and alliances. It will have the oppisite effect of whats intended as it will drive out all the small fry from low sec.
Low sec PI isn't a large isk maker. Done right you can pad your wallet but thats about it. Adding in the costs of POCO will wipe out what little is made. I have a pretty nice PI set up , the vast majority of which is in low sec. If I turned Eve into a second job I could probably afford a single plex per month.
Low sec PI is a low effort passive income but one that doesn't generate large rewards. I think the new changes will make null sec PI alot more interesting but doesn't benefit low sec and makes high sec PI even more worthless then it is now. It will not draw people into PI it will kick people out of that aspect of eve further isolating a large segment of the comunity.
This is the effect I foresee as well.
Regardless of your views on high low null WH risk/reward, the numbers are there, and they're not lying. This actually guts lowsec profits for non-alliance corps.
I want all of you who are saying 'Well, raise your prices.' to stop and think back a few years when the price of T2 was HIGHER THAN OFFICER GEAR because the only people that had easy access was the big alliances. I once traded a Deimos for a Guardian-Vexor.
I want you to stop and think about that. Because this is the sort of thing that created that market. Sure, guys from goonswarm will sit here and extol it's virtues.
Why?
Because for them it's a license to print isk.
People are screaming 'risk vs reward!' but what about 'player driven economy'? You know, where CCP doesn't directly manipulate the market? Because that is exactly what this is. It's artificially creating a shortfall to drive prices up, using a deliberately inflated value driven by speculation.
If you want to see where this leads, CCP, I suggest an examination of the current US real estate market. |
Turhan Bey
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 01:20:00 -
[134] - Quote
If they wanted more activity and conflict in lowsec, then this is certainly not the way to do it. Any large organization (corp or alliance) can now easily push out any small ones. The problem is, lowsec PI was one of the things bringing the small corps into lowsec in the first place. Now I know of a couple who are simply abandoning the idea, and several more who are going to "hang in there and see what happens" but are fully expecting to be shoved out eventually.
So it already means less overall traffic, and even fewer over time. It's one less reason for all those small corps to bring themselves and their haulers into lowsec to begin with. If you want more activity and more conflict, then give people more reason and incentive to travel there. (EDIT: And stay there.) |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
120
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 03:52:00 -
[135] - Quote
Turhan Bey wrote:If you want more activity and more conflict, then give people more reason and incentive to travel there. (EDIT: And stay there.)
Maybe if there was some sort of economic structure unavailable in highsec, which provided tangible isk benefits, and could be owned by people who stayed there and allied together to defend their turf, yet used by others if they so choose??? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 03:59:00 -
[136] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Turhan Bey wrote:If you want more activity and more conflict, then give people more reason and incentive to travel there. (EDIT: And stay there.) Maybe if there was some sort of economic structure unavailable in highsec, which provided tangible isk benefits, and could be owned by people who stayed there and allied together to defend their turf, yet used by others if they so choose???
LOL Yes, and it was called moving expensive ore belts out of high sec and into low sec to get miners to go there
Oh, and then there was something called POS, which were originally null/lowsec only
And then there was something called level 5 agents to try and get mission runners to go there.
and then we got rid of all the well paying high sec complexes to try and drive plex farmers out there.
Huh, I think I see a trend here. and...hmm... has not yet yielded the desired result.
You know what did get carebears out of high sec and into low and null? Jump Freighters. That worked. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
121
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 14:32:00 -
[137] - Quote
The PI alliance thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=39865&find=unread is the exact sort of player-driven, emergent, economic, non-highsec gameplay that the PI tax change helps create. Bravo. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:08:00 -
[138] - Quote
Yes, and you may notice the underwhelming response, and the fact they're already talking about moving it to WH space. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:10:00 -
[139] - Quote
I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:20:00 -
[140] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:22:00 -
[141] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus Read again, I was talking about actual Player Owned COs in lowsec, not NPC ones.
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Velicitia
Open Designs
141
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:24:00 -
[142] - Quote
and look a this, a goon not calling the empire dwellers pubbies for once ...
what else has CCP fixed in Crucible?
as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:26:00 -
[143] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising.
That's more or less to be expected. PvP corps will see it as either bait or as source of income that they don't have to work for. I don't expect that to make up for the overall change in prices.
It's also nice to see CCP going around locking threads about this issue other then the one from a big alliance that the op is in favor of their changes. Damage control as usual, I see.
Velicitia wrote: as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ.
Already did take initiative and am making a killing on it. But I want it to stop. This is going to damage the game in the long term. Just like the old moon goo bug or back when T2 was only produced by people lucky or rich enough to own a BPO. It favors those that already have staggering fortunes and freezes out new players. It drives the market in directions no sane person should want it to go. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:48:00 -
[144] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Omega Flames wrote:Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus Read again, I was talking about actual Player Owned COs in lowsec, not NPC ones. you read again. you said "Only one had a tax about highsec (15%)". Which is an incorrect statement as that is closer to the low/null sec tax not the highsec one. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:50:00 -
[145] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:you read again. you said "Only one had a tax about highsec (15%)". Which is an incorrect statement as that is closer to the low/null sec tax not the highsec one. Oh, ok. I meant the one POCO above highsec tax was at 15%, not that highsec tax was 15%. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
47
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Posted - 2011.12.01 17:14:00 -
[146] - Quote
It totally makes sense that PVP corps will be the ones setting up POCOs in lowsec that give access to neutrals. They are the only guys equipped to protect against the destruction of the POCO.
Myself and a few guys in my corp looked into this ourselves, however we came to the conclusion that people don't come to lowsec for the PI wealth (the best planets are in WH with HS statics, and in nullsec) and they won't come to place factory planets here (the additional profit doesn't outway the risk. Not yet at least).
Most lowsec planets will be extracted for POS fuels. This doesn't really give an adequate income to cover the100 mil POCO costs. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
mnybag1
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:26:00 -
[147] - Quote
Even if you are the only one using the planet, the POCOs are worth it. If you have 12 planets over two accounts making 10 p2 per hour per planet, then you within 5 months the POCOs will have paid for themselves in the amount you save in taxes. Those claiming they will get blown up, if you are the only one using those planets, then chances are its a pretty dead system in general. Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again.
Things change. I think this new feature has a chance of being alot of fun and opening doors to new types of players throughout New Eden. I really hope CCP do not listen to everyone complaining because the feature is working exactly as intended. Once the market calms down from everyone's "THE SKY IS FALLING" mentality, things will probably be more expensive, but they should be because of the indicies.
It all makes sense. Stop whining over spilt isk. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:43:00 -
[148] - Quote
mnybag1 wrote:Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again. You need to visit your local eye doctor cause only P0 have gone up on average and only by 0.04 isk p/u. The rest have actually gone down on average not up. |
mnybag1
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:00:00 -
[149] - Quote
A week or two ago, before people really started worrying about the POS fuel blocks, Coolant was going for about 8-9 K a unit. Now it is upwards of 20k a unit on average. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:10:00 -
[150] - Quote
mnybag1 wrote:A week or two ago, before people really started worrying about the POS fuel blocks, Coolant was going for about 8-9 K a unit. Now it is upwards of 20k a unit on average. idk where you live but coolant sell price in jita is 12k this very second |
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