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Can I touch your Thanatos?

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LUKEC	Posted - 2006.05.18 09:19:00 - [151] Originally by: Abyss Jack Edited by: Abyss Jack on 17/05/2006 22:03:25 Originally by: The Enslaver No, Fighters have a pilot (not player pilot, obv.). They are miniature ships, in effect, that you control with your UI. As such, there should be no bonus 'because gallante are good with drones'; as FIGHTERS ARE NOT DRONES. omg i have living people in my dronebay, but they are tough guys in scaning savespots (just let em follow targets) and to stupid to mwd back to mom If i get 5 fighters to control from a carrier... then my poo gallente ship cannot lauch drones. Ergo... fighters are drones. Die, die, die.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.18 09:37:00 - [152] Edited by: KilROCK on 18/05/2006 09:43:39 They should release a new Leadership skill +1 To gang members controllable drones upon assignment of Fighters to them Rank 10! Charisma/Willpower (oh yea cry) And maybe have a requirement so... if someone doesn't even have drone level 1, you cannot assign it to them (or it would give a noob char ability to send out max 5 fighters - So if someone has level 1, they get 1 drone. if they got drone 5, they get 10 if maxed) Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Cmd Woodlouse	Posted - 2006.05.18 10:10:00 - [153] Edited by: Cmd Woodlouse on 18/05/2006 10:11:50 Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 17/05/2006 12:35:45 Originally by: Keta Min Edited by: Keta Min on 17/05/2006 12:20:42 sorry what? carriers balanced? Moros less useful? phoenix 4 XL weapons? every carrier can remote rep. minmatar bonus is absolutely useless. unplugging keyboard before posting could help in this case. Originally by: Elve Sorrow So, on the one hand you say that Carriers should be used at safespots... (Where resistance boni arent exactly usefull eh?) But, on the other hand you say theyre balanced... (While the only one that gets a usefull bonus is the Gallente one) Then you, and this part is hilarious really, bring up the fact that the Moros is supposedly useless because it can only fit 3 guns. Except, the only one that can fit 4 guns is the Naglfar, which gets 2 guns and 2 launchers. Both the Phoenix and the Revelation only get 3 guns. The Moros on the other hand gets 3 guns aswell as a set of drones that can one-volley most cruisers. The Moros hardly significantly less usefull. Please do your homework before you comment next time. Moros just does less damage. And can't be bothered to hit smaller things than dreads or poses. (sure drones, yea. Seen a lot of those used in battles. They never cause lag. Nope. Never.) Ok, phoenix can fit 3 launchers and 1 turret as seen here: Itemdatabase phoenix And as such does more damage. Period. And it's like that. And thats the way it is. As I said above, the bonus does not apply if the carrier has given the drones to someone else. Do it don't matter. And anyways they are so slow that any cruiser support will eat them alive anyways. or smart bomb frenzy etc. As far as I have seen, the carriers are a great curiosity and eaven a greater deterrent. Ppl haven't really gotten a hang of what they can and cannot do at the moment. And they make mean targets for the enemy. Leave one sitting at the gate and see the enemy gang aggro. Or just sitting outside pos shields. It's just pretty. Remember. Do your homework and you will learn sry but you dont seem to know much about capships. the mistake in ur phoenix-argument was alrdy stated. now i can say this: any bs or cruiser will get EATEN alive by the massive dronebonus of a Moros. taken in account that the 500% dmg bonus also applies to the drone dmg. the dps with 5 ogre t2 is INSANE! ive seen a moros killing a tempest in under 10 seconds with its drones only. --------------------------------
Nafri	Posted - 2006.05.18 10:15:00 - [154] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Abyss Jack Edited by: Abyss Jack on 17/05/2006 22:03:25 Originally by: The Enslaver No, Fighters have a pilot (not player pilot, obv.). They are miniature ships, in effect, that you control with your UI. As such, there should be no bonus 'because gallante are good with drones'; as FIGHTERS ARE NOT DRONES. omg i have living people in my dronebay, but they are tough guys in scaning savespots (just let em follow targets) and to stupid to mwd back to mom If i get 5 fighters to control from a carrier... then my poo gallente ship cannot lauch drones. Ergo... fighters are drones. No Carriers are just the worst implantet ships ever. Totally bugged, useless boni, fighters not even remotly usefull. Summertime - Campingtime!
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.18 10:22:00 - [155] Edited by: KilROCK on 18/05/2006 10:23:08 here's what fighters need changes wise.. - Reduced building requirements in material, more along lines of a t1 cruiser. - Built time halved - Release of skills that affect them (More hitpoint really needed) - Volume halved to 2500m3, They pop easily. It's a mess to lose 20 fighters have no replacement, when they cost 17-20m each.. (allows thanatos for example to have 40 of them) As for carriers, the bugs needs to be fixed. The coding for fighters need to be remade/tweaked and they seriously need to make something about those CTD and unrecoverable fighters problems. Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Laboratus	Posted - 2006.05.18 11:44:00 - [156] Now as far as I have seen to date. I haven't seen the carriers being used in PVP in any other role as a refit and repair unit. A logistics battlefield central. As for the fighters, I don't think I've seen them in meaningful use in combat operations. At the moment they are too slow and have a too short range to be able to hurt anything in a meaningful way. Everytime they have been used outside testing conditions, the enemy has either jumped or warped away (yea they follow, but letting them follow is the dumbest way of losing isk. As they will quite propably be ambushed. For 20M a pop it's not worth it. Good way of losing ISK fast with no returns) and as such have been more of a scare then a real asset. And no the carriers aren't durable enough to bring to the field in other than small to medium sized ops, where the expected enemy force is below 6 or 8 BS + support. What the carriers excel in is the ability to refit and resupply in the field. They are a real base of operaions in hostile territory. As this is the role they are most usful in at the moment (unless fighters get a huge bonus to speed range and agility, and the carrier gets t2 grade resistances), in addition to other logistics, maybe this is where the bonuses should be directed to. For example: bonus of 1 to max users per skill level. bonus to cargo and ship holds. If the ship is inteded for fighting, maybe a bonus to the attributes mentioned above would be good: bonus to fighter speed (minmatar maybe, as it is their racial speciality) bonus to fighter agility (caldary mayve, as the fluff would support this) bonus to fighter durability (for amarr, as they are the masters of attrition fighting) Anyways if the bonuses of carriers don't apply when you assign the fighters to others doesn't work, eaven these bonuses would become trivial. At the moment the role of the carriers is as support and logistic ships, and they excel in it. Yes if you never try to set up for anything but ganking Thana is the best. However, if you have whith the army you got, and seek to get the best out of the situation in hand, every carrier brings something usefull to the table. As in life, so in Eve, the skill of being able to use what you have to the max is what brings success. Not the sorrow and moaning of what you want.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.05.18 13:22:00 - [157] Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse sry but you dont seem to know much about capships. the mistake in ur phoenix-argument was alrdy stated. now i can say this: any bs or cruiser will get EATEN alive by the massive dronebonus of a Moros. taken in account that the 500% dmg bonus also applies to the drone dmg. the dps with 5 ogre t2 is INSANE! ive seen a moros killing a tempest in under 10 seconds with its drones only. Amen Having seen, fought, and killed every type of Dread save a Naglfar (haven't killed one yet) I can honestly say that the only one I FEAR is a Moros. With tech 2 large drones the Moros just devours tanked battleships, most of them even before they can align. Even killing the drones is mostly unfeasible because of the drone HP bonus the Moros gets and the gigantic drone bay it gets for replacements. Those drones are killing machines as anyone that has fought a few can attest. Nyxus Once he presses "activate F1", Mr Titan is no longer your friend.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.18 13:35:00 - [158] Edited by: KilROCK on 18/05/2006 13:44:35 977DPS with Gallente Dreadnought 4 for 5 Ogre II - drone interfacing 5, Gallente drone spec 4.. Just tell me, how **ty is your battleship if it gets devoured by 977DPS of thermal damage before they align? As for ogre II on a moros, they pretty much have close to the HP of fighters, fighters are easy to kill, have same signature radius of a Ogre II. Moros gigantic bay? It's only enough to have 20 of them. 4 volley. Wow, sure is gigantic. Ok so we got a moros, doesn't have a drone range bonus, so it's pretty much down to 45km (scout 5) + 15km from EW drone skill. So you tell me, that a Ogre II, can travel 60km, to your battleship. You're locked by a moros, you let the drones COME to you and you whine about it owning you before you align? Pure idiocy if you ask me. You might have fought every dreadnought in the game, killed but you're heavily bullting me with that. 5 Ogre II on any other dreadnought do 311DPS and bits, a moros does 700 more DPS than that. Ok so, I have a **ty support because since when can a moros LOCK cruisers fast enough to own them with ogre II? Since when do you come at range, get locked by a dreadnought and let 900m/s drones get to you? Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
Severa Crest	Posted - 2006.05.18 14:30:00 - [159] I like a lot of ideas that were mentioned in the OP. I would also like to suggest that coupled with the changes in the OP each carrier should get a bonus to its ship bay capacity when loaded with a particular class of ship. Also since with the introduction of the clone vats pilots will be able to deploy from motherships these should also have a bonus that they pass onto that specific class of ships when they are deployed from the mothership. An example of this would be:- Nidhoggur - Bonuses to jump range, fuel cost, and reduction in ship volume when loading frigates and cruisers. The Hel would have the same bonuses, but when deploying frigates and cruisers they would get a speed/sig radius/insert your choice bonus. Obviously for the ship volume bonuses to be effective, the ship bays need to be increased dramatically - but from chatter on the forums I assume that this change is needed anyway.
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.05.18 14:34:00 - [160] nidhoggur - 7.5% reduction to fighter's signature resolution per level. Might be decent Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs
slip66	Posted - 2006.05.18 15:25:00 - [161] Originally by: bUBbLeS tbh digi hits the spot again - carriers shoulnt actually be IN the fight, and the bonus's dont make sense as they are also anyone know when CCP are actually gonna fit the fighters/drones oh and the carrier corp hanger Maybe the devs actually intended for them to be in the fight ... players just choose to use them in a different role. Originally by: StOrM ViPeR Theres a skill called surgical strike in game I've learned that it actually stands for Band of Brothers
Luc Boye	Posted - 2006.05.18 15:37:00 - [162] Originally by: slip66 Maybe the devs actually intended for them to be in the fight ... players just choose to use them in a different role. Devs dont have to mine for carriers
Terradoct	Posted - 2006.05.18 16:14:00 - [163] Gallente - 10% dmg per lvl of gallente carrier skill for Firbolg fighter Caldari - 20% optimal per lvl of caldary carrier skill for Dragonfly fighter Minmantar - 10% tracking per lvl of minmantar carrier skill for Einherji fighter Ammar - 5% dmg and 10% optimal per lvl of amarr carrier skill for Templar fighter
delta2zero	Posted - 2006.05.18 16:24:00 - [164] what you smoking lol? the optimal bonus and tracking would make the thanatos severly gimped ,we all know fighters struggle to hit anything but a BS
Mr Breakfast	Posted - 2006.05.18 17:52:00 - [165] Originally by: Luc Boye Originally by: slip66 Maybe the devs actually intended for them to be in the fight ... players just choose to use them in a different role. Devs dont have to mine for carriers Even if the devs intended them to be in the fight, if they suck at fighting, of course no one is gonna use them.
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2006.05.18 19:55:00 - [166] Originally by: delta2zero Edited by: delta2zero on 18/05/2006 16:27:20 Edited by: delta2zero on 18/05/2006 16:26:03 what you smoking lol? the optimal bonus and tracking would make the thanatos severly gimped ,we all know fighters struggle to hit anything but a BS as they are now. should just give them all the same bonus of +10% armor and 5% resistances across the board maybe they would get used in fights then instead of giving them bonuses that dont apply when the drones are in control of a gang mate fighters hit cruisers just fine - Gob (my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p)
Dtech	Posted - 2006.05.18 20:15:00 - [167] Currently any combat involving carriers either has them in a safe spot or at a POS. If the rumors are true about the Gallente carrierÆs bonus not applying to fighters after they are assigned to someone else, then its bonus is useless since it doesnÆt directly attack anything. The Caldari and Amarr bonuses do not help much since the carriers are in a safe spot most of the time. In a way the Minmatar bonus is the most useful one since it does help in repairing other ships, but still useless regardless how you look at it. My idea is to copy the titans and give carriers and motherships a bonus that affects the gang they are in. So probably something like this: Minmatar Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ turret tracking speed per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ turret falloff range per level Gallente Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ turret rate of fire per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ drone control range per level Caldari Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ missile damage per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ missile velocity per level Amarr Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ turret damage per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ maximum capacitor capacity per level Some bonuses might be overpowered, but would make carriers still effective while in a safe spot or POS.
Terradoct	Posted - 2006.05.18 21:20:00 - [168] Originally by: delta2zero Edited by: delta2zero on 18/05/2006 16:27:20 Edited by: delta2zero on 18/05/2006 16:26:03 what you smoking lol? the optimal bonus and tracking would make the thanatos severly gimped ,we all know fighters struggle to hit anything but a BS as they are now. should just give them all the same bonus of +10% armor and 5% resistances across the board maybe they would get used in fights then instead of giving them bonuses that dont apply when the drones are in control of a gang mate My fighter even hit some frigates and you know what so incredeble they can kill just as fast as drones.
Cummilla	Posted - 2006.05.18 22:20:00 - [169] Good thread. But, what's the focus? Making carriers differentiated or differentiable? Or perhaps getting them from their safespots? Or, just find A use, any use, for them? I hope CCP answers "getting them from their safespots" because who the f4rk trains as much as is required for cap ships to sit in a SS circle jagging off while the real fun is being had at the front of the battle? Alot of the ideas offered still leave my chimera and archon at the SS. /cry I know sometimes if something seems to simple of a solution, maybe it is for some reason. You know, it's not "in line with the backstory" or "makes something I didn't think about overpowered" or what not. But it seems to me that to get Carriers to the front line of the battle, requires massive boosting to the resist bonus given to carriers in particular. And\OR, you need things like "capital shield hardeners" and "capital armor hardeners" introduced into the game. I don't see a downside to bringing "godlike" resists to carriers as a way to get them into the battle. As long as drones\fighters\whatever you call them, aren't overpowered and the current status quo in terms of cap vulnerability is maintained, then what's to worry about. Kill the carrier's fighters as they crap them out. In fleet action, you actually might have to bring something other than BS to the tea party in order to specifically kill fighters since you won't be able to insta pop the carrier that's sitting at 95+ resists across the board.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.05.18 23:53:00 - [170] The focus has always been to differentiate the capital ships in more ways than racial bonuses / damage types. People are just bringing a whole lot of extra crap into the thread to push their own agendas. Which is pretty unlikely to happen considering my suggestion requires a minor edit of the database, and theirs are extremely complicated. Its a simple effort to reduce the importance of DPS in capital warfare, instead of just shifting it around so another ship becomes flavor of the month - nothing more. Getting carriers out of safespots is another problem, and not a five minute fix. The real fix will be when damage is reduced to the point where logistics in fleet battle is viable, and to do that you need a whole bunch of drastic changes. None of them are actually aimed at carriers. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.05.18 23:53:00 - [171] The focus has always been to differentiate the capital ships in more ways than racial bonuses / damage types. People are just bringing a whole lot of extra crap into the thread to push their own agendas. Which is pretty unlikely to happen considering my suggestion requires a minor edit of the database, and theirs are extremely complicated. Its a simple effort to reduce the importance of DPS in capital warfare, instead of just shifting it around so another ship becomes flavor of the month - nothing more. Getting carriers out of safespots is another problem, and not a five minute fix. The real fix will be when damage is reduced to the point where logistics in fleet battle is viable, and to do that you need a whole bunch of drastic changes. None of them are actually aimed at carriers. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2006.05.19 00:11:00 - [172] Maybe bring carriers closer to dreads? Give them drone and weapon bonuses and as special bonus the Xfer bonuses maybe. Ship lovers click here
Severa Crest	Posted - 2006.05.19 00:45:00 - [173] Edited by: Severa Crest on 19/05/2006 00:45:45 I dont think its possible for carriers to be useful in the frontline, as this would only make them invincible for smaller engagements. The same with any damage reduction, would make small engagements last forever. When 30 ships shoot 1 it has to pop, i think it would be frustrating for anything else to happen. Hence logistics will never be a frontline activity.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.19 01:07:00 - [174] Originally by: Dtech Currently any combat involving carriers either has them in a safe spot or at a POS. If the rumors are true about the Gallente carrierÆs bonus not applying to fighters after they are assigned to someone else, then its bonus is useless since it doesnÆt directly attack anything. The Caldari and Amarr bonuses do not help much since the carriers are in a safe spot most of the time. In a way the Minmatar bonus is the most useful one since it does help in repairing other ships, but still useless regardless how you look at it. My idea is to copy the titans and give carriers and motherships a bonus that affects the gang they are in. So probably something like this: Minmatar Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ turret tracking speed per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ turret falloff range per level Gallente Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ turret rate of fire per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ drone control range per level Caldari Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ missile damage per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ missile velocity per level Amarr Carrier: 5% bonus to gang membersÆ turret damage per level Mothership: 10% bonus to gang membersÆ maximum capacitor capacity per level Some bonuses might be overpowered, but would make carriers still effective while in a safe spot or POS. You want standard carriers to do more for your gang with 256k in leadership than I could ever dream of with millions of skill points and a fleet command ship? Titans can get away with it because they cost 70billion isk, but carriers are only 1 billion... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

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