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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:03:00 -
[1]
Most people when asked "which carrier is best?" will tell you its the gallente ones. Some will even say they are overpowered, even though it was always obvious the gallente ones would be best at dealing damage. But I think the reason so many people dislike the current situation is because the bonuses other three races get are just so ineffective by comparison.
Looking at amarr and caldari, you have a 5% resistance bonus. But as any competent carrier pilot will realize, if you're in a position to be taking damage you've done something horribly wrong. Current carrier tactics involve sitting at a POS or safespot and delegating your oversized drones to someone else. Then to make the resistance bonus less relevant, in most fights it will just come down to who gets reinforcements quicker.. you or the enemy.
Then theres the minmatar one, oh man.
In theory its pretty cool that the minmatar are better at quicker repairs, giving them an advantage in the short term combat. In reality, fights which involve capital ships are not hit and run and not short term. So you can repair faster? Thats nice, you only end up running out of cap faster, and somehow I doubt the minmatar carrier has capacitor superiority.
Then lets look at repairing itself, and how it fails so miserably. Even with capital transfer modules, and a greatly reduced cycle time, you're not going to be keeping anyone alive in a fleet fight. So maybe the theory is sound, but fleet battles are still all about getting 50+ people to gank a single target in the first volley.
Then you look at all the other stats a capital ship such as this would have: jump range, jump cost, corp hangar size, ship hangar size, fighter control range.. all identical. Why?
Lets assume Minmatar are kings of mobility, why not give them a far lower jump cost and greater range?
Assuming Caldari want to remain masters of long range tactics, why not give them a greater fighter control range, and greater transfer module range?
Amarr have always been into attrition warfare. Instead of just giving them a good tanking ship (le boring), increase the ship and hangar maintenance sizes a significant amount over any other carrier so it can replenish friendly pilots through a much larger amount of losses. Or maybe make the cap/armor transfers it uses much more efficient for longer sustainability?
Thats my little rant for now, but the same tweaks can apply to titans and maybe dreads. Ships are getting too damn similar in functionality, with the only difference being the bonus and it really sucks.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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keepiru
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:08:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: DigitalCommunist
good ideas
Sounds good to me...
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Please fix BC Sig/Agility! |
Aeaus
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:08:00 -
[3]
Agreed that the Gallente are the kings of carrier warfare, however I would like to see annother route.
5% Fighter Damage per Level (For EVERY Carrier)
5% [Racial Bonus]
With the Racial Bonus and Damage Hybrid we would be able to prevent one ship from being overwhelmingly powerful due to Fighter DPS, while having varriance.
My Guides (Recomended Reading) |
Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:08:00 -
[4]
I agree.
~Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:10:00 -
[5]
Quote:
was always obvious the gallente ones would be best at dealing damage
actually, seeing as fighters are caldari tech, it wasn't :). besides that though, some very good ideas in there
/emote waits for istvaan to see this thread
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aeaus
Agreed that the Gallente are the kings of carrier warfare, however I would like to see annother route.
5% Fighter Damage per Level (For EVERY Carrier)
5% [Racial Bonus]
With the Racial Bonus and Damage Hybrid we would be able to prevent one ship from being overwhelmingly powerful due to Fighter DPS, while having varriance.
Thats exactly what I don't want to see.. :\
Same stats, same damage.. only difference is type. Booo.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:13:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Quote:
was always obvious the gallente ones would be best at dealing damage
actually, seeing as fighters are caldari tech, it wasn't :). besides that though, some very good ideas in there
/emote waits for istvaan to see this thread
Yah it was, first mention of carriers was capital ships with XL drones. It got renamed to Fighters to explain the whole warping thing, but they are still giant drones both in mechanics and function. The caldari "fighters" from prime fiction based out of resupply depots just like any other vessel, not a giant ship. But im going to stop whoring my own thread, there are brownies in need of munching!
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
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Kilo Paskaa
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:13:00 -
[8]
I will destroy YOU! [insert here singing AK¦s and missiles]
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As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies. |
Okoru
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Posted - 2006.05.16 21:56:00 -
[9]
I think this is a good idea. It adds diversity, and makes each carrier unique. Rather than just have differences in the bonuses.
Identical ships are icky. 
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Educated ASCNalt
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:03:00 -
[10]
erm, hello? fighter damage bonus doesnt work when you assign the fighters to someone else
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This is an alt for the Ascendant Frontier. It is protecting the identity of his main from questionable alliance rules that encourage lameness and alt abuse. Threat level: F5, F5, F5... |
Amerame
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:06:00 -
[11]
Good post, as usual.
Balanced does not mean equal, only people with no imagination could support the idea to give all races exactly the same stats. What's the point in having different races if in the end it just changes the skin of your ship ?
Amarr & Gallente carrier are fine as they are I would say. If Minmatar carrier had a higher jump range, it would definitely make it attractive to those who use them mainly for logistic purposes. I guess the Caldari carrier could use extra ship bay, after all they're supposed to be using manned ship extensively against drones.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:14:00 -
[12]
The Amarr one is not fine.
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Abyss Jack
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Amerame
Good post, as usual.
Balanced does not mean equal, only people with no imagination could support the idea to give all races exactly the same stats. What's the point in having different races if in the end it just changes the skin of your ship ?
imao its ok as it is atm except the minmi carrier. Maybe you miss the role of the carrier it self, every carrier pilot of each race have to bring the same support strength. And you all know the fact that some peeps will get upset cuz they have not the stats as the others, so the pilot have tho train the other race... imao totaly stupid sorry
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:22:00 -
[14]
DC is this thread is r.. ri.... RIGHT.
 
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Stamm
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:23:00 -
[15]
Wise post!
As for the specifics on Amarr, I don't think anyone would choose that over the others.
Ships should have the same functions though. An interceptor should intercept, a battleship should be WTFPWNage, carriers should be fleet support ships, dreads should be POS wasting juggernauts etc. But there should be enough difference between them that not one of them is seen as being the best.
One thing about carriers though. When the lag becomes less in fleet battles, I see ships warping out for repairs more often than they do now. So energy/shield/armor transfers from carriers may become more common, in that case the bonuses they have may become more significant than they are just now where carriers just seem to be used to send drones remotely, and ferry stuff in 0.0.
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Lord Slater
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:35:00 -
[16]
The OP'S post is a very good one.
Only one image allowed in signatures - Saucerhead
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Bazman
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Posted - 2006.05.16 22:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
The Amarr one is not fine.
It looks pretty crap too. Sucks to be Elve :P
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Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.05.17 00:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Educated ASCNalt
erm, hello? fighter damage bonus doesnt work when you assign the fighters to someone else
Can anyone with a pair verify that?
~Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.05.17 00:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Aeaus
Agreed that the Gallente are the kings of carrier warfare, however I would like to see annother route.
5% Fighter Damage per Level (For EVERY Carrier)
5% [Racial Bonus]
With the Racial Bonus and Damage Hybrid we would be able to prevent one ship from being overwhelmingly powerful due to Fighter DPS, while having varriance.
Thats exactly what I don't want to see.. :\
Same stats, same damage.. only difference is type. Booo.
Okay so give the fighter damage bonus to another race and give gallente something else? Haha oh wait you get the best bonus on your carrier so everyone else should get crap bonuses and we can pretend its balanced, k..
If you don't fly a thanatos right now you are retarded the other carriers simply blow. 5% shield/armor resist woopty doo, its a carrier, and only one has the uber DPS, and on a carrier that is sitting at a safespot that is all that matters.
I would go with racial damage bonuses for carriers to be honest. Having one carrier that does the uber DPS and the rest with worthless bonuses doesn't add "flavor" to EVE it just means everyone will train for a Thanatos and the other carriers aint worth squat, end of story.
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FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.05.17 00:17:00 -
[20]
We are all still assuming the Gal carrier bonuses apply when the fighters are tasked...what if the alt is right?
I don't know for sure, but I dont really have the resources to find out atm.
~Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation |
Weirda
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Posted - 2006.05.17 00:19:00 -
[21]
yes - you can touch anything of weirda's.
great post... like you said, most of the stats 'that matter' outside the bonus are cookie cutter identical. weirda think that they had to spend so much time making game mechanic work (or not work in some case) for these thing, that the ship stats and differences were more of afterthought then anything else.
could be wrong and don't want to hurt any dev feeling, but as you point out this is really the case once you get 'under the hood'.
keep it up DC, weirda have a feeling that when you talk, they listen... 
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Weirda
Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
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Rick Thwaites
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Posted - 2006.05.17 00:20:00 -
[22]
Digital Communist has it right on the nose. I agree wholeheartedly.
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FFGR
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Posted - 2006.05.17 00:24:00 -
[23]
I agree with DC.
A very good post indeed.
I would like to hear your opinion on variation of the Dreads though.
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siggys v. 0.5 |
Aeaus
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Posted - 2006.05.17 00:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Aeaus
Agreed that the Gallente are the kings of carrier warfare, however I would like to see annother route.
5% Fighter Damage per Level (For EVERY Carrier)
5% [Racial Bonus]
With the Racial Bonus and Damage Hybrid we would be able to prevent one ship from being overwhelmingly powerful due to Fighter DPS, while having varriance.
Thats exactly what I don't want to see.. :\
Same stats, same damage.. only difference is type. Booo.
The new Command Cruisers are an even worser example, the statistics on the same hulls are practically identical except for resists and fitting.
It's hard to have balanced and unique capital ships, although right now we have neither.
My Guides (Recomended Reading) |
Nyxus
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Posted - 2006.05.17 01:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Bazman
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
The Amarr one is not fine.
It looks pretty crap too. Sucks to be Elve :P
Yes.
On both counts.  The Amarr mothership is especially bad. 1/2 a Bestower? Wtf?
Nyxus
Once he presses "activate F1", Mr Titan is no longer your friend. |
Cmd Woodlouse
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Posted - 2006.05.17 01:48:00 -
[26]
Tbh i think Carriers need a general overhaul cause right now they are pretty useless xcept of being blockadebreaking transports and assisting in camps maybe... fighers barely hit anything smaller than a BS, their warpspeed is retarded, u have no option of disabling following target into warp, your tank is mostly crappy, u cant fit any guns at all, all bonusses suck xcept of gallente one, they cant use jumpgates and so on and so on...
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Doc Brown
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Posted - 2006.05.17 02:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Amarr have always been into attrition warfare. Instead of just giving them a good tanking ship (le boring), increase the ship and hangar maintenance sizes a significant amount over any other carrier so it can replenish friendly pilots through a much larger amount of losses. Or maybe make the cap/armor transfers it uses much more efficient for longer sustainability?
While I like your other ideas, increasing the bay's in these ships will only cause the Amarr ones to become dedicated (and jump drive) freighters.
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There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.05.17 03:02:00 -
[28]
I have an issue with the assumption that carriers are meant to sit at pos and assign fighters. I think the amarr and Caldari carriers are going in the right direction with resistance bonuses, because it's ridiculous that a carrier dosn't even need to see the battle and win it.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Cadiz
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Posted - 2006.05.17 03:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Neon Genesis
I have an issue with the assumption that carriers are meant to sit at pos and assign fighters. I think the amarr and Caldari carriers are going in the right direction with resistance bonuses, because it's ridiculous that a carrier dosn't even need to see the battle and win it.
Amusingly enough, this is what carriers actually tend to do IRL. For what little the comparison's worth, anyways.
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Vasudeva Subhadra
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Posted - 2006.05.17 03:41:00 -
[30]
In "real life" naval combat happens at out of visual range and pilots get to have all the fun :P
I have no problem with carriers going into combat... there are situations where they wont suck even though it is a lot to risk to take out a couple of BS. Still... why fly the damn thing if you're not gonna have fun with it.
And as much as it pains me to admit it, I agree with Digi. I dont care if minmatar dont do as uber damage as the French carriers, after all what minmatar ship can compete in DOT? I would LOVE it if minmatar carriers had more range than other races.
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