| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
xeom
   |
Posted - 2006.05.17 04:45:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Rather good ideas
Even after those changes thantos would still be #1.The carriar is there to deal damage with its drone.The best idea was less jumps for the minmatar,but lets be real.Would you rather save a few jumps? Or be more assured know you're fighters are going to be doing 40-50% more damage?
I might go with you're idea if for instance the the gallante one got a nerf to lets say 4% damage extra per level.That would equal the usefullness of the other carriars.Until then nothing you really do will matter.When it comes to these babys it seems damage is king.
CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? |
KilROCK
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 04:56:00 -
[32]
*nods*
But i don't think any of those changes will make people go for caldari/minmatar/amarr over the Gallente carrier.
Might be 'worth' flying minmatar one.. still not that great bonus you have in mind there.
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Kunming
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 05:33:00 -
[33]
Indeed good ideas by DC.
Even though I dont think the gallente carrier is overpowered, I would like to see all carriers have a unique bonus to their fighters...
Amarr could get an armor bonus so they get the most out of the amarr fighters which have the most armor
Minnies, a speed bonus to their fighters.. again they will get the most out of the minmatar fighters since they are the fastest
Caldari, optimal range bonus probably as the caldari fighters have the best range it seems.
TBH, carriers really look like they have been rushed to make it into the patch, the amount of bugs, the balance issues, and besides werent fighters going to be XL drones which one could fit modules on... guess all the good ideas got scrapped on the way when they realized they were short on time.
|
KilROCK
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 06:29:00 -
[34]
I think fighters skill should have 10% to fighter damage and hitpoint.. or Release a skill that increase hitpoints..
They are really... 17m easy to pop nice looking things..
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Bacchuss
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 06:45:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Quote:
was always obvious the gallente ones would be best at dealing damage
actually, seeing as fighters are caldari tech, it wasn't :). besides that though, some very good ideas in there
/emote waits for istvaan to see this thread
thought frgates was caldari tech, aka kessies
**************************************
"What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!"
**************************************
|
Boonaki
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 06:51:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Boonaki on 17/05/2006 06:51:07
The part where "if you're in a position to be taking damage you've done something horribly wrong." I don't really agree with 100% of the time. For small gang on gang warfare carriers can turn the odds into your favor. They can tank sentries forever and it takes about 20-45 seconds for a sentry to kill a fighter. There are tactics around that. I'm just slightly annoyed that the fighters go off and attack the sentries and wont follow the return order.
But yeah, anything bigger then small fleets and the carrier is BBQ'd in 45 seconds.
Fear the Ibis of doom! |
vecdran
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 07:06:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kilo Paskaa
I will destroy YOU! [insert here singing AK¦s and missiles]
I can't stop laughing XD
|
Abyss Jack
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 08:25:00 -
[38]
Originally by: KilROCK
I think fighters skill should have 10% to fighter damage and hitpoint.. or Release a skill that increase hitpoints..
They are really... 17m easy to pop nice looking things..
the skill "Drone Durability" is your friend
my idea:
*gallente: 10% fighter drone damage / hitpoints per lvl (also should effect on assignd drones at gangmates)
*minmatar: 5% armor repair / shield booster amount 5% speedbonus per lvl (maybe the minmi fighter drones should've faster recovery)
*amarr: 5% armor resistence 5% armor hitpoints per lvl
*caldari: 5% shield resistence, 5% shield hit points per lvl
***the minmi, amarr, caldari bonus should effect all gangmates and fighterdrones
im not realy care about minmatar 
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 08:31:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Bacchuss
Originally by: Sarmaul
Quote:
was always obvious the gallente ones would be best at dealing damage
actually, seeing as fighters are caldari tech, it wasn't :). besides that though, some very good ideas in there
/emote waits for istvaan to see this thread
thought frgates was caldari tech, aka kessies
Linkage
Originally by: "Chronicle"
The drones reversed the tide of the war and now the Caldari were scrambling to come up with a solution against these new weapons. It didnÆt take them that long - they simply upgraded their fighters a bit, added some shields and extra weapons and called the new vessels frigates. Some extra crew was also needed at first, but then the Caldari obtained capsule technology from the Jovians some years later and could again reduce the crew to one on most frigates.
text bolded to point out the key points
|
Teles666
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 08:41:00 -
[40]
I don't see why the Gallente fighters should be more powerful, it is completely out of step with the back story and the history of the eve cluster.
Fighter description: Single-pilot combat vessels
This was the Caldari modus operandi, the success of Caldari fighters made Gallente build drones.
Drones are not fighters, Caldari should have uber fighters if anyone is to.
Also every carrier bonus should apply to it's fighters. Amarr carriers should give boosts to the fighter's armour, Caldari should boost the fighter's damage, Gallente should boost the fighter's rof and Minmatar should boost the fighters speed and agility.
|
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 08:55:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 17/05/2006 08:55:54
Quote:
fighers barely hit anything smaller than a BS
Never had any problems hitting cruisers or hacs. Besides you can still use 9 Heavies.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
LUKEC
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 08:58:00 -
[42]
Edited by: LUKEC on 17/05/2006 08:58:52
Now the few things that really bother with fighters/carriers:
1. does ship bonus work when you delegate them to someone?
2. does figter skill apply when you delegate them?
3. assigning fighters to gallente pilot means that he loses 1/3 of his own firepower or even more in some cases... great, isn't it? Caldari technology, obvious.
4. the whole ss/pos hugging idea of carrier is wrong. Something should be changed, or at least description in skill: warning, train with alt char...
5. make them able to enter plexes:P
Die, die, die. |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 08:59:00 -
[43]
This is really a no brainer situation here guys. I don't even see what the debate is.
You train Carriers to get the ability to use Fighters.
Fighters are really good, they do really cool stuff.
One carrier gets a 50% damage bonus to its fighters, and holds the most fighters, the other 3 get bonuses which do not help a carrier be better at its intended role, of deploying fighters in combat.
Now how you can say any of the other carriers are even remotely as good as the Thanatos, I don't know. Obviously they are not. Unless you are very very stubborn about flying one race there is absolutely zero reason to train for any other carrier except the Gallente one. It is simply that much better than the rest and that is because it a) holds more fighters b) does up to 50% more damage with those fighters.
How you can spin that or cook up new exciting bonuses like further jumpdriving and bigger hangar maintenance bays would somehow make someone look at the carriers and say hey that amarr carrier sure has an awesome maintenance bay, I will forgoe training for the carrier that holds the most fighters and gets a huge incredible bonus to fighter damage and train for that!
Seriously.
------
FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:13:00 -
[44]
As long as Digital Commuist doesn't talk about insta-jumps, I've found I'm one of his fanbois. Great ideas over all.
@ Sarmaul :: Those fighters in that chronicle were solo-fighters. Carrier fighters are far from solo-fighters. It's much like the WW2 with german versus british fighters, and in this case the british are Gallente. It didn't go too well for the british until they realized that flying solo just didn't work out for them.
So frigates, and heavy fighters, are Caldari engineering (well... not frigates. That's Jove engineering, but...). As for fighters, it's a common doctrine to have, but one can only assume it was developed for space warfare during the time the Caldari were part of the Federation and as such can't be attributed neither the Gallente nor the Caldari.
In other words, Fighters as such are race-less when it comes to specialization. Gallente are the ones who've taken carriers (especially drone carriers) further.
@ Archon :: If you actually bring your carrier into combat instead of having it at safespot you'll find that it's much easier to pimp the Archon's capacitor than the Thanatos' which in turn enhances the Archon's resistance bonus further. In an environment were you not able to delegate fighter control, the Archon, Thanatos, and Chimera would be more or less balanced (at the very least well within acceptable levels). Now that you can delegate drone control, though...
@ Numbers and the OP :: One reason for the jump distances to be more or less equal is to give players a more or less equal playing field as to logistics. In other words, it's good to have the different carriers able to jump an equal distance, not to mention that it's hard enough to comprehend jump planning due to the lack of documentation and tools involved. As for fuel costs I think that one is more a matter of not wanting to devalue this or that ice ore.
In essence, though, I agree with you. Racial diversity is what is needed rather than an equal (which is not to be read as level) playing field. The difficulty is in identifying the Minmatar bonus properly as to not create more problems. A greater part of that difficulty is that the Minmatar's doctrine is made for smaller ships and a Minmatar capital ship carrier is about as far out of the Mimatar's waters as you can get.
Regarding Caldari, though, there is no fighter control range, Digi. You lock a target and tell fighters to go get it, and they do regardless if it's 289km away or 10km away.
Amarr might get one of it's bonuses to be +10% ship maintenance bay
Minmatar might get one of it's bonuses to be +10% drone velocity and tracking (This means BOTH velocities)
As for Caldari, I am at a loss. The same goes for Gallente, although the natural choice for fighter damage bonus - is it enough if the others get two bonuses? (the above suggested bonuses aren't enough)
What would a sufficiently strong bonus for Caldari be and a sufficiently... interesting but not powerful... bonus for Gallente be? (Let's face it, Shield or armour resistance bonuses are just as boring as fighter damage - only the Minmatar's bonus is interesting, if really bad)
New sig coming soonÖ
Drone musing (MC-boards) |
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:20:00 -
[45]
@ Jim Raynor :: Actually, the "hold more fighters" issue isn't much of an issue. It's mostly an issue because it's impossible to monitor fighter health, but that's more a matter of a bug. It would've been an actual game play issue were it easy to change fighters mid combat, but considering it takes around 2-3 minutes to get fighters back into drone bay, it's not.
Originally by: LUKEC
Edited by: LUKEC on 17/05/2006 08:58:52
Now the few things that really bother with fighters/carriers:
1. does ship bonus work when you delegate them to someone?
2. does figter skill apply when you delegate them?
3. assigning fighters to gallente pilot means that he loses 1/3 of his own firepower or even more in some cases... great, isn't it? Caldari technology, obvious.
4. the whole ss/pos hugging idea of carrier is wrong. Something should be changed, or at least description in skill: warning, train with alt char...
5. make them able to enter plexes:P
1. If no, then that'd be an interesting... erm... "nerfbat fix" for the Thanatos versus other carrier situation.
2. Dunno.
3. And did you know that Minmatar and Caldari ships are much smaller than Gallente and Amarr ships. Especially the Minmatar ones tend to fit in more in a Carrier than the others. Not a boost for the Nidhoggur, though.
4. Yup. Pretty much what everyone except Golan does in MC :p
5. No!
New sig coming soonÖ
Drone musing (MC-boards) |
Eximius Josari
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:23:00 -
[46]
Does anyone know for sure if the Gallente extra bonus applies to Fighters tasked to other players?
~Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:35:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 17/05/2006 09:35:35
Originally by: Ithildin
@ Sarmaul :: Those fighters in that chronicle were solo-fighters. Carrier fighters are far from solo-fighters. It's much like the WW2 with german versus british fighters, and in this case the british are Gallente. It didn't go too well for the british until they realized that flying solo just didn't work out for them.
So frigates, and heavy fighters, are Caldari engineering (well... not frigates. That's Jove engineering, but...). As for fighters, it's a common doctrine to have, but one can only assume it was developed for space warfare during the time the Caldari were part of the Federation and as such can't be attributed neither the Gallente nor the Caldari.
In other words, Fighters as such are race-less when it comes to specialization. Gallente are the ones who've taken carriers (especially drone carriers) further.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The only reason I can think of that CCP decided to go against the backstory was because it was easier than having all the gallente idiots (not including you in this) moaning that their ships didn't get bonuses to fighters, dispite it clearly stating in the back story that gallente had nothing to do with fighters (besides one horribly failed attempt) and instead developed the drone technology by combining mines with AI (and a few bells and whistles obviously). The drones were a counter to fighters, not a replacement.
Secondly, CCP have stated in the past that fighters are one-man crafts with the capsule technology stripped out and a single fighter pilot's*****pit put in instead (which is clearly visible of you zoom in on the ship model). I'm not sure where your getting the information from that any form of fighter exists that has more than 1 person as crew.
Thirdly, frigates are not Jove technology. Frigates are the evolution of fighters. When the fighters were upgraded with extra guns and armour they became frigates and needed some extra crew (note that this is not fighters with more crew, but frigates). When the caldari got the capsule technology from the Jove, they integrated it with the frigate technology to create today's modern one-man pod-piloted frigates.
Gallente-Caldari War: The War Drones On is the backstory article. Go read it and come to some new conclusions :)
|
bUBbLeS
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:36:00 -
[48]
tbh digi hits the spot again - carriers shoulnt actually be IN the fight, and the bonus's dont make sense as they are
also anyone know when CCP are actually gonna fit the fighters/drones
oh and the carrier corp hanger
|
Ithildin
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:43:00 -
[49]
Ok, it's a bit off topic...
In the backstory article it stated on all but one occasion specifically "solo-fighter". Maybe you are right and the Caldari were the fighter inventors. But would you mind Caldari then handing over the Scorpion to us? :p
Oh, and also, the Caldari weren't very brilliant when it came to larger ships during that war. A lot has changed, I guess. (In fact, the Raven is the Caldari state's oldest battleship and it's a whopping... 8 years old design now. The Scorp is about 4 years old).
As for the frigates, the thing with them were that they didn't become effective until the Jove's gave Caldari pod technology, and effectively saved them from becoming a lesser race a'la one of the pirate factions. Think that's detailed in a different article, though. Was something to do with the frigates able to execute navigational moves which obsoleted fighters due to the pod's faster ship interfacing and greater ability to preserve the human body under extreme conditions (for lack of better words).
Kind of gives a new argument. The fighters in that story aren't the fighters we have today. Those solo-fighters were made obsolete during the Caldari-Gallente war.
New sig coming soonÖ
Drone musing (MC-boards) |
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:48:00 -
[50]
I feel like such a nerf arguing over the backstory :/
Originally by: Ithildin
But would you mind Caldari then handing over the Scorpion to us? :p
I thought everyone knew the caldari modified the guristas' rattlesnake design to make the scorpion 
|
Scalor Valentis
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 09:52:00 -
[51]
You can touch Siddys "nidhoggur", he sed so 
<3 lots digi
[23] Member: BoB Alt
Haha shin ra, haha. |
KilROCK
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:05:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Abyss Jack
Originally by: KilROCK
I think fighters skill should have 10% to fighter damage and hitpoint.. or Release a skill that increase hitpoints..
They are really... 17m easy to pop nice looking things..
the skill "Drone Durability" is your friend
Ignorance is yours, as the skill doesn't affect fighters.
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Chronus26
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:10:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Kunming
Indeed good ideas by DC.
Even though I donÆt think the Gallente carrier is overpowered, I would like to see all carriers have a unique bonus to their fighters...
Amarr could get an armour bonus so they get the most out of the Amarr fighters which have the most armour
Minnies, a speed bonus to their fighters.. Again they will get the most out of the Minmatar fighters since they are the fastest
Caldari, optimal range bonus probably as the Caldari fighters have the best range it seems.
I like both DigitalCommunist and this idea. I agree that carriers could do with a little tweaking.
As a capital pilot in-training I can't really speak from experience, but from looking at stats and hearing other people discuss Carriers in general I think I can understand the issues with them.
Personally, I hate the idea of sitting at a safe spot in my (future) Carrier while my gang is on the battlefield utilizing my fighters which I have spent months training for. Looking at carrier bonuses, I don't agree that this is how they were intended to be used, which is a real shame.
The Thanatos' description states that it was
Quote:
Designed to act primarily as a fighter carrier for small- to mid-scale engagements, its significant defensive capabilities and specially-fitted fighter bays make it ideal for its intended purpose.
To me this says that a Carrier is not really intended for use in full-scale 100-man-a-side fleet engagements, more in smaller fights where the actions of every individual counts. I think the carriers place should be on the battlefield, where its bonus' can be used as they are.
As from a role-playing point of view, although the Caldari originally developed the concept and usage of fighters, I believe that the Gallente saw this technology and improved upon it, creating drones. The Caldari however developed their Fighters into Frigate class vessels as we see them now and abandoned fighter technology. Caldari are not the "masters" of fighters, merely the creators. The Gallente took the technology onboard and improved upon it, so they are the true masters. I do not think it is wrong for the Gallente Carriers to be more skilled in the usage of their own technology. Having said that I do think that there also has to be benefits to using the other race carriers:
- Tanking bonus on Amarr, whether it be on the carrier itself or on the fighters.
- Mobility bonus for Minmatar - either Jump drive orientated as DC suggests or Fighter Based as Kunming says.
- Caldari are masters of range and electronic warfare so either of these could work well.
- Gallente should retain damage superiority over the others as masters of drone/fighter technology.
Thats just my view of the situation, and how things can be improved. If you don't agree feel free to discuss.
-----
|
Kunming
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:11:00 -
[54]
I thought the scorp came first and then the raven, isnt this stated in the novel 'Ruthless' which is all about the raven actually. I definetly read 100% of all backstory but its been such a long time might be mistaken there...
As for the fighter discussion, caldari fighters got obsolete indeed, when the gallente started deploying drones.. carrier design has nothing to do with fighter design though, in RL we dont see carriers with KMs of runways, no instead the fighters are actually designed to fit the carriers.
Different race carriers should give race specific strengths to their fighters not useless bonus to remote repairing or something.
|
Abyss Jack
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:21:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Abyss Jack on 17/05/2006 10:25:05
Originally by: KilROCK
Ignorance is yours, as the skill doesn't affect fighters.
well so it's better to add a new skill to increase specialy fighter hitpoints than fixing the old one to have same effect on all drones 
just wondering what the devs are doing atm... 
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:22:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kunming
I thought the scorp came first and then the raven, isnt this stated in the novel 'Ruthless' which is all about the raven actually. I definetly read 100% of all backstory but its been such a long time might be mistaken there...
As for the fighter discussion, caldari fighters got obsolete indeed, when the gallente started deploying drones.. carrier design has nothing to do with fighter design though, in RL we dont see carriers with KMs of runways, no instead the fighters are actually designed to fit the carriers.
Different race carriers should give race specific strengths to their fighters not useless bonus to remote repairing or something.
Scorpion is the newest BS ingame, think the old description stated this. Its so new, that its purpose is still unkown.
Summertime - Campingtime!
|
KilROCK
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:22:00 -
[57]
Edited by: KilROCK on 17/05/2006 10:22:34
Originally by: Abyss Jack
Originally by: KilROCK
Ignorance is yours, as the skill doesn't affect fighters.
well so it's better to add a new skill to increase specialy fighter hitpoints than fixing the old one to have same effect on all drones
And that's what i suggested?
Normal drones skill don't affect fighters, as CCP says 'they are not drones'.
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Noriath
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:32:00 -
[58]
Capital ships just don't have enough HP, that's what it really comes down to. If you acctually bring a capital ship to a fleetbattle it will be dead faster then you can say gankfleet. CCP said that the carrier was supposed to be a ship that every fleet fielded at least one of, however that never happened for two reasons:
First of all you can't take a capital ship into enemy fire, because it's a huge, expensive, dangerous target that won't survive the combined fire of 50 battleships for 30 seconds.
And secondly the entire remote repairing idea is somewhat useless because you don't need to be repaired after you got fleetganked, you need a new ship.
It would be way better if instead of repairers carriers had remote resitance boosters that add like 95% resistance to one type.
Now that would make fleetbattles awsome, because if everyone targets the same guy he just gets uber resistances from the carrier and tanks them till sunday. So in order to acctually kill people you have to spread your fire out amongst so many targets that the enemy carriers can't boost them all.
If you have multiple carriers in the fleet this will also allow you to boost themselves, giving them a decent chance of survival against gankfleets.
And last but not least it would give an edge to non-Gallente carriers.
|
KilROCK
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:34:00 -
[59]
Edited by: KilROCK on 17/05/2006 10:34:42
Funny tho, an avatar with the best implants and gang implants and skills can have over 200k of armor..
(without regenerative membranes)
They should boost up Gang assist modules to have an higher attribute..
Petwraith ♥ me. I make sigs |
Abyss Jack
|
Posted - 2006.05.17 10:37:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Abyss Jack on 17/05/2006 10:38:29
i could swear fighters are 5 times bigger, cuz in real you can hit them even with capital weapons. I think they're running mwd to often, even if they don't move.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |