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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
495
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Posted - 2014.05.13 06:56:00 -
[211] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: Fitting Hull Rigs alone effectively removes 40k m3 from the Orcas cargo capacity, Bulkhead ll and DCU ll, removes another 30k m3 and you want to remove more by having a Cargo Capacity Drawback on Hull Rigs? Adding a speed deficit to hull rigs for a ship that does 75m/s now, sort of defeats the purpose of fitting the extra hull, once you leave the safety of highsec..
While 30k or 40k Cargo reduction on a T1 Freighter may not have much effect - The same reduction applied to a JF has a massive impact - 50% more fuel being required to move a JF about + reduction to carrying capacity by fitting rigs = Disaster for Lowsec and Nulsec logistics. Further reducing the speed of JF's by having speed drawback for hull rigs = More time for gankers to get through the extra bit of hull you picked up with the rigs.
Hull Rigs, IMO should have the same Drawback as Engineering Rigs - None - The ships they will benefit most already have enough draw backs. Speed, Agility, Target Value, just to name a few. Why give them the ability to help overcome some of the drawbacks then add drawbacks that all but neutralize what they are being given.
As much as I see your reason here for freighters and jump freighters, hull rigs without drawbacks are not going to happen. Simple reason: they can also be used on other ships, where draw backs are absolutely essential. In the end, this means a (potential) massive nerf to freighters and jump freighters. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
781
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Posted - 2014.05.13 08:51:00 -
[212] - Quote
I'm struggling to understand why a reduction in sub-warp speed is in any way a drawback for a freighter or industrial.
Slow boating these ships is an error. They should be in warp.
The max speed in no way affects the time to warp.
Thus the speed penalty is no penalty at all for industrials.
It's barely a penalty for combat ships, since we have already learned to live with the idea that trim arks slow a ship down.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
211
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Posted - 2014.05.13 08:56:00 -
[213] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Fitting Hull Rigs alone effectively removes 40k m3 from the Orcas cargo capacity, Bulkhead ll and DCU ll, removes another 30k m3 and you want to remove more by having a Cargo Capacity Drawback on Hull Rigs? Adding a speed deficit to hull rigs for a ship that does 75m/s now, sort of defeats the purpose of fitting the extra hull, once you leave the safety of highsec..
While 30k or 40k Cargo reduction on a T1 Freighter may not have much effect - The same reduction applied to a JF has a massive impact - 50% more fuel being required to move a JF about + reduction to carrying capacity by fitting rigs = Disaster for Lowsec and Nulsec logistics. Further reducing the speed of JF's by having speed drawback for hull rigs = More time for gankers to get through the extra bit of hull you picked up with the rigs.
Hull Rigs, IMO should have the same Drawback as Engineering Rigs - None - The ships they will benefit most already have enough draw backs. Speed, Agility, Target Value, just to name a few. Why give them the ability to help overcome some of the drawbacks then add drawbacks that all but neutralize what they are being given. As much as I see your reason here for freighters and jump freighters, hull rigs without drawbacks are not going to happen. Simple reason: they can also be used on other ships, where draw backs are absolutely essential. In the end, this means a (potential) massive nerf to freighters and jump freighters. The fix for that is really quite simple. Drawbacks apply to hulls not rigs. This could be built into the rigs so bonuses and attributes on ships don't need to be changed. EG; Hull Rig Drawback, -10% to speed, does not apply to Capital Industrial Ships, Jump Freighters or Freighters.
I understand the need for drawbacks on combat hulls but if the drawbacks apply to those mentioned, they could create a balance where the rigs are of very little or no benefit.
My opinions are mine. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK. Just don't bother Hating - I don't care.. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
495
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 10:43:00 -
[214] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:I'm struggling to understand why a reduction in sub-warp speed is in any way a drawback for a freighter or industrial.
Slow boating these ships is an error. They should be in warp.
The max speed in no way affects the time to warp.
Thus the speed penalty is no penalty at all for industrials.
It's barely a penalty for combat ships, since we have already learned to live with the idea that trim arks slow a ship down.
Have you ever landed 2.5 km away from a station and slowboated to the station's docking range?
And I don't see why autopiloting an empty freighter is "an error", it's as viable a way to travel as with any other ship.
Sgt Ocker wrote:The fix for that is really quite simple. Drawbacks apply to hulls not rigs. This could be built into the rigs so bonuses and attributes on ships don't need to be changed. EG; Hull Rig Drawback, -10% to speed, does not apply to Capital Industrial Ships, Jump Freighters or Freighters.
I understand the need for drawbacks on combat hulls but if the drawbacks apply to those mentioned, they could create a balance where the rigs are of very little or no benefit.
That would certainly be a good option; however, knowing CCP Fozzie, this is unlikely to happen. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
390
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Posted - 2014.05.13 19:45:00 -
[215] - Quote
Would be awesome if you could also buff hull repair and remote hull repair modules a bit as well. The remote rep mods can't be overheated, and they repair maybe half as much over time as the remote armour rep modules. Equalizing cost and cycle time between armour rep and hull rep modules, and adding overheating to the hull rep modules might be sufficient to keep them lower-demand but still pull them out from the bowels of unused modules and under-trained skills. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9988
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:53:00 -
[216] - Quote
After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Vivi Udan
Multiplex Gaming Li3 Federation
14
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:57:00 -
[217] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty.
Do this mean that Freighters/JFs will be getting low slots too? The Mittani of House GoonWaffe,-áFirst of His name, King of the Goons and VFK,-áMaster of griefing,-áLord of the CFC, Warden of the West,-áand Protector of Deklein. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
9991
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:57:00 -
[218] - Quote
Vivi Udan wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. Do this mean that Freighters/JFs will be getting low slots too? Not at this time. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
790
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Posted - 2014.05.13 21:58:00 -
[219] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time.
Oh well, that's the end of the hull tanked Dominix and Armageddon plan then Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Marc Callan
Nuclear Manhattan Limited
445
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Posted - 2014.05.13 22:06:00 -
[220] - Quote
Ouch. I just realized that there's one edge case that would get hurt by a cargohold penalty to bulkhead modules.
An Orca flown by a pilot with ICS IV, with two T2 cargohold rigs and a T1 ACR, can do the DC/bulkhead hull tank, fit a MWD for pulse-to-warp, and carry a battleship in its main cargohold - it's got over 50K of space that way, with a 200K+ EHP tank. With a bulkhead chewing up cargo space instead of slowing the ship down, that possibility is gone.
Which I suspect is part of the point, huh? "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt |
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Ranamar
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
57
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Posted - 2014.05.13 22:11:00 -
[221] - Quote
Huh... for some reason I thought bulkheads currently increased mass instead of doing a speed decrease and an agility penalty. TIL.
I'm trying to parse your post... a "equal cargo penalty" means that whatever they currently lose in speed they'll lose in cargo instead? (so, like, -11% speed becomes -11% cargo?) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10002
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Posted - 2014.05.13 22:37:00 -
[222] - Quote
Ranamar wrote: I'm trying to parse your post... a "equal cargo penalty" means that whatever they currently lose in speed they'll lose in cargo instead? (so, like, -11% speed becomes -11% cargo?)
Yes. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Abulurd Boniface
The Scope Gallente Federation
123
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Posted - 2014.05.13 22:48:00 -
[223] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:and who would use them?
How about: real men?
How long have you been here?
Real men hull tank. What do you think they do this for? |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3375
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 22:50:00 -
[224] - Quote
So when are we going to see the changes to freighters so we can fully understand what that means for the transportation business? Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
790
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Posted - 2014.05.13 22:54:00 -
[225] - Quote
Law of unintended consequence alert:
Bulkheads are used by dread pilots to rescue the dread while still in triage once the cap is gone.
Now when dreads refit they will find gat the cargo hold is suddenly overful.
Has CCP coded for this consequence? Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Adarnof
Free Trade Monopoly
12
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Posted - 2014.05.13 22:59:00 -
[226] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time.
The orca use case right now falls into two categories: assembled ships and bulky cargo that doesn't quite justify a freighter. Making bulkheads and rigs reduce cargo capacity effectively reduces that to simply assembled ships. A standard orca fit right now (DC2 + bulkhead and T1 cargo rigs) can barely haul more than a bestower in its main bay as is, once cargo penalties get introduced that's going to drop even more. Unless you're moving ships most people will be better off nerfing the cargo in their freighter with these rigs for some added survivability.
Killing the rorqual and then the orca is a bit harsh, don't you think? The only reason I'll be owning either of these post-expansion is for their new-found yellowness. |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
212
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Posted - 2014.05.13 23:05:00 -
[227] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time. Wow, so you can have a tanky Orca - As long as you don't want to put anything in the cargo hold. Orca gets penalized in cargo size 4 times by fitting Hull Rigs and Bulkhead. I was looking forward to a few more lowsec mining runs in my Orca, not worth it if you can't fit enough ore in it to make the trip worthwhile. Rorqual will suffer even more, it has a tiny Fleet hangar for its use and now to finally be able to put a reasonable tank on it you lose 3/4 of your Cargo Hold.
I take it we have no indy representatives on the new CSM or did they just get shouted down by the, "I want to kill industrial ships crowd" that dominates CSM's.
You've given any combat ship with the viability to fit a hull tank a massive boost (cargo space is irrelevant) and nerfed the few industrial ships (cargo space is everything) that could have used hull rigs.
CCP Fozzie; I think your "Eve is all about PVP" focus is a little too narrow minded. My opinions are mine. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK. Just don't bother Hating - I don't care.. |
Arronicus
Ravens' Nest Outlaw Horizon.
965
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 23:12:00 -
[228] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Law of unintended consequence alert:
Bulkheads are used by dread pilots to rescue the dread while still in triage once the cap is gone.
Now when dreads refit they will find gat the cargo hold is suddenly overful.
Has CCP coded for this consequence?
CCP seems to have addressed this by ensuring that you cannot fit triage to a dreadnaught. As for overfull cargoholds, this isn't anything new, any shouldn't cause any problems, unless of course, you eject from the ship, you'll get a warning that the ship is overfilled. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
791
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 23:14:00 -
[229] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Law of unintended consequence alert:
Bulkheads are used by dread pilots to rescue the dread while still in triage once the cap is gone.
Now when dreads refit they will find gat the cargo hold is suddenly overful.
Has CCP coded for this consequence? CCP seems to have addressed this by ensuring that you cannot fit triage to a dreadnaught. As for overfull cargoholds, this isn't anything new, any shouldn't cause any problems, unless of course, you eject from the ship, you'll get a warning that the ship is overfilled.
Forgive me, I of course meant siege. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
212
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Posted - 2014.05.13 23:15:00 -
[230] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Law of unintended consequence alert:
Bulkheads are used by dread pilots to rescue the dread while still in triage once the cap is gone.
Now when dreads refit they will find gat the cargo hold is suddenly overful.
Has CCP coded for this consequence? CCP seems to have addressed this by ensuring that you cannot fit triage to a dreadnaught. As for overfull cargoholds, this isn't anything new, any shouldn't cause any problems, unless of course, you eject from the ship, you'll get a warning that the ship is overfilled. Or in the case of a capital, you try to warp or jump. Overloaded cargo = no warp, no jump. My opinions are mine. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK. Just don't bother Hating - I don't care.. |
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3604
|
Posted - 2014.05.13 23:17:00 -
[231] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time. Well, that pretty much made both useless for haulers, in my opinion.
Is there some explanation of the reasoning? |
Sven Viko VIkolander
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
165
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Posted - 2014.05.13 23:53:00 -
[232] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time.
Hull tanked Gallente ships here I come!!!
Serious question though: For a ship like an Orca, will the hull rigs decrease the cargo of just the personal cargo area, or all the hangars (fleet, ore hold, ship maintenance bay)? Sorry if this is obvious. In either case, my Orca hauler thanks you. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
47
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Posted - 2014.05.14 00:32:00 -
[233] - Quote
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time. Hull tanked Gallente ships here I come!!! Serious question though: For a ship like an Orca, will the hull rigs decrease the cargo of just the personal cargo area, or all the hangars (fleet, ore hold, ship maintenance bay)? Sorry if this is obvious. In either case, my Orca hauler thanks you.
In the past, anything that reduces cargo or increases cargo is just the cargo bay. The others are holds or hangar. |
Utopa Kashuken
Eos Tribe
14
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Posted - 2014.05.14 01:50:00 -
[234] - Quote
How about Hull Resistance Rigs? They will be awesome. |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
175
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Posted - 2014.05.14 02:25:00 -
[235] - Quote
Powers Sa wrote:Can you adjust the HULL Rig penalties to add a reduction to cargo for choosing to fit tank? This would force the player to choose between tank or cargo, and making it a real choice with drawbacks either way. The cargo rigs should reduce hull, and the hull rigs should reduce cargo. This would be the best balance and reinforce the choices and roles the players will use these ships for.
Players frequently moving higher value will have to move less but be safer. Players moving low value but high volume will be less of a valuable target, but accepting risk with the fitting choice. While cargo rigs currently reduce armor, it would make far more sense for astronautics rigs in general to have a hull penalty, rather than armor. It makes little sense that ship modifications to improve engine performance would take away armor as a penalty. Having this would be ideal, I think. Either that, or introducing these hull rigs as an astronautic rig rather than an armor rig, and having the same penalties for cargo apply to all astro rigs, while renaming all astronautic rigs, "hull rigs" in the same way we have hull upgrades. |
Catherine Laartii
State Protectorate Caldari State
175
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Posted - 2014.05.14 02:32:00 -
[236] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Liafcipe9000 wrote:Tengu Grib wrote:Real men hull tank. Thanks CCP! Now we can do it for REAL!
this. I checked the numbers in evehq. A hull tanked neutageddon will have more ehp than an armour tanked neutageddon - if you ignore the effect of gang links. This is because the hull rigs give a 5% larger bonus when compared to trimarks. lol whats a domi look like? Navy domi with 3 shield mods, 2 bulkheads and 3 hull rigs pulls 175k ehp. 3 bulkheads pulls a hair over 200k. It also gets over 50k hull hp. |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
213
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Posted - 2014.05.14 03:14:00 -
[237] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Powers Sa wrote:Can you adjust the HULL Rig penalties to add a reduction to cargo for choosing to fit tank? This would force the player to choose between tank or cargo, and making it a real choice with drawbacks either way. The cargo rigs should reduce hull, and the hull rigs should reduce cargo. This would be the best balance and reinforce the choices and roles the players will use these ships for.
Players frequently moving higher value will have to move less but be safer. Players moving low value but high volume will be less of a valuable target, but accepting risk with the fitting choice. While cargo rigs currently reduce armor, it would make far more sense for astronautics rigs in general to have a hull penalty, rather than armor. It makes little sense that ship modifications to improve engine performance would take away armor as a penalty. Having this would be ideal, I think. Either that, or introducing these hull rigs as an astronautic rig rather than an armor rig, and having the same penalties for cargo apply to all astro rigs, while renaming all astronautic rigs, "hull rigs" in the same way we have hull upgrades. That wouldn't work very well. Cargo optimization rigs ARE Astronautic rigs.
It is very easy for people who don't fly Indy, Haulers to say - reduce cargo.
If Hull rigs are to so dramatically affect the orca they will not be worth fitting. Simply opting to fit Hull rigs effectively reduces your cargo capacity by 50%, then it is further reduced by the rigs themselves.
Seems balanced to me. not. The only ships able to use Hull rigs without drawbacks affecting their viability to do their job, will be combat ships. Effectively, combat ships get a bonus to Hull rigs, while Haulers are penalized. My opinions are mine. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áIf you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK. Just don't bother Hating - I don't care.. |
Valterra Craven
228
|
Posted - 2014.05.14 03:59:00 -
[238] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time.
So. What you've done is simultaneously released an item in game that everyone wanted and also made a majority of the people that would want to use no longer want to do so....
Seriously?
None of the combat rigs have what I would call meaningful penalties. Aka increase dps at the expense of alpha, or increase range at the expense of tracking, etc... I know you guys don't exactly throw fitting at ships, but those penalties are not very meaningful compared to this change. All of the ships that would use it for its intended purpose now no longer want to because it hampers their main role.
I think you should revert this change, or make rig personalities actually meaningful on all rigs instead of continually penalizing indy types for no reason. |
Valterra Craven
228
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Posted - 2014.05.14 04:00:00 -
[239] - Quote
Also, where the hell are my hull tanking links and leadership skills... |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
502
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Posted - 2014.05.14 05:52:00 -
[240] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:After some thinking over the feedback in this thread and discussion with the CSM, we've decided to switch the penalty for the hull hp rigs to cargo capacity.
We are also going to swap the speed penalty on all reinforced bulkhead modules to an equal percentage cargo capacity penalty. The agility penalty will remain intact at this time.
So, fulfilling the expectations as always. How much hull HP do freighters lose with your other nerf? I mean, you need to create an artificial demand for these rigs, right? Freighter pilots need to compensate the lost HP with these rigs in order to not being gankable by 1 Catalyst and in turn pay with cargo and increased exposure to PVP. And of course we also need to install cargo rigs and pay with even more HP in order to have at least some meaningful cargo space on the ships. So, everything going according to the plan? |
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