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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Heiian Conglomerate
771
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 16:14:00 -
[61] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Bienator II wrote:well, i can already tell now that the cloaking restriction will fix nothing. It might make it even worse. Freaking timer resets is what we need (and maybe a small timer length reduction if they are added).
Did nobody mention that on the roundtable?
edit: and having more rats would fix what again? There is a blog linked on the first page of this thread that recounts the FW round table. The short version is that many suggestions were brought up- 2012 was our year though so only expect small changes. i do understand this that we can't expect big changes. But all we are asking for are tweaks. CCP needed a second expansion to partially fix what they delivered in inferno. And in all instances they always said "we will monitor the situation and tweak it later". This did never happen. And timer resets are a trivial coding task, they are probably LESS effort than adding more rats and balancing them. #justsaying
there is nothing to tweak really, FW is working fine. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
299
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 19:10:00 -
[62] - Quote
I'm also curious if there was any specific response on the subject of timer rollbacks. Seriously, its the most supported change in the FW community. Tell me someone brought it up. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2577
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 00:40:00 -
[63] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:I'm also curious if there was any specific response on the subject of timer rollbacks. Seriously, its the most supported change in the FW community. Tell me someone brought it up.
they could remove the rats all together if there would be timer rollbacks, allow cloaking, stabs everything. The problem is fixed. If you can't hold the line you can't make offensive/defensive progress. Most obvious fix ever. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order Repeat 0ffenders
887
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 01:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:I'm also curious if there was any specific response on the subject of timer rollbacks. Seriously, its the most supported change in the FW community. Tell me someone brought it up. they could remove the rats all together if there would be timer rollbacks, allow cloaking, stabs everything. The problem is fixed. If you can't hold the line you can't make offensive/defensive progress. Most obvious fix ever.
If there is one fact in eve, its that pve'ers will never win a pvp war, and that pvp'ers would never win a pve war. That is why timer rollbacks by themselves would not deter farmers, specially bots.
Make evasion pve harder on top of timer rollbacks, that will put a dent in farming bots.
Cloaky ships, stabbed ships, fine. But ships fitted with these should not be able to effect occupancy. Timers should not tick for stabbed or cloaky ships.
Fitting a cloak to some degree and fitting stabs absolutely is a statement of "I have no interest in FW or leaning how to PVP, im here simply to farm isk to the detriment of everyone else in FW".
I have no problem with people earning isk, but if that is your primary goal, go run high sec missions, or lvl 5's, incursions etc, non of which put pressure on where other players can dock. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Circle-Of-Two
1129
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 04:11:00 -
[65] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Bienator II wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:I'm also curious if there was any specific response on the subject of timer rollbacks. Seriously, its the most supported change in the FW community. Tell me someone brought it up. they could remove the rats all together if there would be timer rollbacks, allow cloaking, stabs everything. The problem is fixed. If you can't hold the line you can't make offensive/defensive progress. Most obvious fix ever. If there is one fact in eve, its that pve'ers will never win a pvp war, and that pvp'ers would never win a pve war. That is why timer rollbacks by themselves would not deter farmers, specially bots. Make evasion pve harder on top of timer rollbacks, that will put a dent in farming bots. Cloaky ships, stabbed ships, fine. But ships fitted with these should not be able to effect occupancy. Timers should not tick for stabbed or cloaky ships. Fitting a cloak to some degree and fitting stabs absolutely is a statement of "I have no interest in FW or leaning how to PVP, im here simply to farm isk to the detriment of everyone else in FW". I have no problem with people earning isk, but if that is your primary goal, go run high sec missions, or lvl 5's, incursions etc, non of which put pressure on where other players can dock.
Covert cloaks should be ok in plexes imo. The ships that use them have a decent value and farmers don't risk ships with a decent value.
All other cloak types and stabs should simply cause ships to just blow up when 30km from a plex beacon because 'something something interference something something caused an anomaly which caused your stuff to explode - you suck - WoW is that way ---->'. Docked since 2009. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2579
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 04:55:00 -
[66] - Quote
it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all.
Why are there timers in the first place? To force players to stay in space (its just the ultra short version of reinforcement timers), which ends up creating a conflict. Right now you can completely avoid the conflict while making progress.
FW has already semi broken pve content in form of missions (you can finish missions in SBs without NPC agro) you can farm all day long, so farmers would still have something to do even if CCP would fix plexing. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Ayem Quarm
Benito de Soto
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 06:43:00 -
[67] - Quote
I'm sure that CCP believes that the code that runs the timers is complex. I have noted several times that they are reluctant to modify it. I rememeber reading in a thread somewhere where a CCP dev outright expressed the dificulties associated with this code.
Most vetrans will rember certain bugs associated with the timers and how long it took CCP to fix them despite the fact they were obvious exploits. As well as the expoits there were numerous small bugs.
Timers are pretty much working as intended ATM more by luck than judgement. For me CCP is reluctant to re-open the can of worms. Easier to tweak the rat's stats. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
193
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 07:33:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ayem Quarm wrote:I'm sure that CCP believes that the code that runs the timers is complex. I have noted several times that they are reluctant to modify it. I rememeber reading in a thread somewhere where a CCP dev outright expressed the dificulties associated with this code.
Most vetrans will rember certain bugs associated with the timers and how long it took CCP to fix them despite the fact they were obvious exploits. As well as the expoits there were numerous small bugs.
Timers are pretty much working as intended ATM more by luck than judgement. For me CCP is reluctant to re-open the can of worms. Easier to tweak the rat's stats. You may be right.
But the 15Gé¼ we pay each month aren't 'bugged', so if the only reason CCP isn't changing the timers is bugged code, it would be nice if they'd debug it. |
Gordin Brott
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 08:50:00 -
[69] - Quote
I once told new farmers in militia chat that each warp stabiliser and cloak they fitted to their ship reduced the LP payout for running a plex by 25%. Much to my surprise, many people believed me, and nobody called bullshit on it. I told them that CCP had introduced the change for RP reasons, as the Empire factions considered anybody fitting these modules to be 'insufficiently committed' to the war effort. I was mildly surprised that people were still mentioning this as truth in militia chat days later.
While I intended it as a joke, this might actually help reduce the rampant farming within the militias, or at the very least mean that farmers must actually risk their ships in order to get a 100% payout. |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
117
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 09:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
Gordin Brott wrote:I once told new farmers in militia chat that each warp stabiliser and cloak they fitted to their ship reduced the LP payout for running a plex by 25%. Much to my surprise, many people believed me, and nobody called bullshit on it. I told them that CCP had introduced the change for RP reasons, as the Empire factions considered anybody fitting these modules to be 'insufficiently committed' to the war effort. I was mildly surprised that people were still mentioning this as truth in militia chat days later.
While I intended it as a joke, this might actually help reduce the rampant farming within the militias, or at the very least mean that farmers must actually risk their ships in order to get a 100% payout.
It's an interesting idea to expand on. I know there are some niche cases where you bring a cloaked griffin alt into the site with you or you use a vexor with a single stab so you can warp off if you're being kited to death but that would certainly add options to the FW meta, especially since mobile depots and carrying around stabs in the cargo is beyond easy to do if it's required. |
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Silverbackyererse
Nasranite Watch Heiian Conglomerate
62
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 11:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:
Covert cloaks should be ok in plexes imo. The ships that use them have a decent value and farmers don't risk ships with a decent value.
With smarts like that you're wasted in null-sec m8. Get it out of your system and return to where you belong pronto. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
178
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 12:17:00 -
[72] - Quote
FYI: Wall of text incoming.
So I attended the FW Roundtable, and of course was rather involved in the discussions. Here's some points that I recall, and my impressions.
1. CCP intended FW to be a small gang and solo content magnet, which it has succeeded at in their eyes. They're fairly happy with where FW is in that regard, and recognize the differences between the warzones.
2. The attendees were almost universally PvP centric FW players. CCP recognizes the issues of farmers in the warzone and the mission imbalance. The cloak change and NPC respawns are intended to help with those issues.
3. NPCs will be on a random 90-300 second respawn timer, with no more than 1 per plex at a time. The NPCs are intended solely as a DPS check, nothing more, and this change is intended to force more combat oriented fits. We asked about buffing the rats, and CCP noted that was tricky since if they buff them too much the content won't be as accessible to new players - which they want to preserve.
4. Cloak radius is going to be implemented as an object radius increase, so that when you're within 30ish km of the button it's like you're at 0km, kind of like gates etc. They are aware of the "hover just outside of range" issue and will ensure there's a big enough buffer to force movement and such. This is the first iteration and they'll adjust in the future as needed. The change to release schedule means they'll have a lot more flexibility to do this.
5. Their resources to iterate on FW are limited, since there's so much going into rewriting core parts of EVE to allow for the future functionality they want to implement. In addition, they simply can't change some things due to the nature of those. To rebalance missions - and they want to include things like webbing towers etc - they'd have to put in massive efforts. Once the new content tools are authored, however, that becomes a far easier task that they'll likely tackle then. To give one example, mission rats aren't supposed to shoot their own faction - that's a bug. They spend 5 weeks trying to figure out what broke, and weren't able to find it. They are looking at these things, but other stuff requires more resources and attention.
6. They'll be looking to rebalance items in the LP stores - faction webs, etc - to make them more attractive, which should increase demand. In addition, someone raised the idea of faction Capital mods - and faction Capital ammo specifically was noted as something they might look to add to the LP store.
7. Regarding FW income in general, they specifically noted that aside from mission imbalance they were pretty happy with FW income - primarily because they view FW space as the riskiest at the moment, and feel the rewards are roughly in line. They are concerned with the ease of getting and keeping high standings, the freeloader problem, and cross faction plexing issues. They asked about whether folks would be interested in some kind of standings decay over time due to inactivity, possibly linked to iHUB donations or PvP, which attendees were receptive to depending on implementation. In response to their question about separating allied factions - i.e. Gallente and Minmatar - attendees were unanimous in their support for breaking them up. As CCP has some lore opportunity to implement that, and it'd fix a lot of cross-faction awox and plexing issues, expect to see them look into this more seriously.
8. One other issue that was brought up was how security status was given higher priority in the overview than militia, and how this causes issues with new players or players unaware of the problem who haven't fixed their overview. The suggestion was made to put militia higher by default, which CCP noted and said was something that should be relatively easy to implement.
9. Regarding timers, they were aware of the assymetric time commitment and the defensive vs. offensive disparity. Balancing all those things is very tricky however. Regarding defensive plexing, they commented that making rewards proportional to system contested level was necessary to balance farmers and make plexing in unfitted boats an unattractive proposal. One suggestion was made to have defensive plexing add LP to the iHUB like oplexing takes it, and CCP commented that generally they didn't want to do that as it'd be too easy to push up tier that way - but with the proportional LP reward with contested level, that might be doable and that they'd look into it.
10. Regarding PvP LP, CCP stated that there was a cap on how much they could give out due to exploitability, but they'd look into smoothing the rewards across tiers so that PvP in general was rewarded at a higher level on average than currently.
11. Some raised the idea of an incursion style LP payout, wherein LP are only rewarded when an iHub is flipped. CCP commented that this could overly reward attack over defense, leading to system pong, which they didn't want. We raised the idea of partial LP being withheld until the iHUB was flipped, which CCP agreed to go into.
In short, I think that CCP is fully aware of most of our concerns, and intends to further iterate on FW in the future. At the moment though, the grunt work of having to totally redo huge portions of the EVE codebase in order to allow for future functionality is taking up the vast majority of available resources. Module tiericide, content authoring tools, the new Mordu's Legion ships, the industry changes, and the ore anomaly changes all offer opportunities to significantly improve FW and low sec in general, and with two low sec CSM - including one specifically FW focused - I think we're set up well for the next year. Their new release schedule means we won't have to wait a year for more balance changes.
Brighten up gents, the future is shiny. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
178
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 12:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:Gordin Brott wrote:I once told new farmers in militia chat that each warp stabiliser and cloak they fitted to their ship reduced the LP payout for running a plex by 25%. Much to my surprise, many people believed me, and nobody called bullshit on it. I told them that CCP had introduced the change for RP reasons, as the Empire factions considered anybody fitting these modules to be 'insufficiently committed' to the war effort. I was mildly surprised that people were still mentioning this as truth in militia chat days later.
While I intended it as a joke, this might actually help reduce the rampant farming within the militias, or at the very least mean that farmers must actually risk their ships in order to get a 100% payout. It's an interesting idea to expand on. I know there are some niche cases where you bring a cloaked griffin alt into the site with you or you use a vexor with a single stab so you can warp off if you're being kited to death but that would certainly add options to the FW meta, especially since mobile depots and carrying around stabs in the cargo is beyond easy to do if it's required. Some of the GMVA suggested changing WCS to give a flat 10-20% damage decrease. Since the rats are intended to be DPS checks, that would quickly limit the kinds of plexes you could run with stabbed boats. It's an interesting and relatively simple change that doesn't require more heavy-handed changes like banning them from plexes or tying it to LP rewards. |
Samuel Reaper
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 12:32:00 -
[74] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:I'm also curious if there was any specific response on the subject of timer rollbacks. Seriously, its the most supported change in the FW community. Tell me someone brought it up.
It's a terrible idea and I very much doubt that CCP will take anything so unbalanced into consideration. It is basically a free pass for defenders to never have to run down a plex counter again. Any change to timers needs to be on the basis of first past the post dual timers. Rollbacks will be far worse than what we have at the moment, introducing a massive imbalance to address an insignificant problem. |
Samuel Reaper
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 12:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all.
Why are there timers in the first place? To force players to stay in space (its just the ultra short version of reinforcement timers), which ends up creating a conflict. Right now you can completely avoid the conflict while making progress.
Resets or rollbacks simply don't achieve the aim you identify here. The defender just drives the aggressor out of the plex and then flies off. He has no motivation to stay in place as the timer will roll back anyway and he can maintain the status quo - which is inherently a defensive victory - without ever capping a plex. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
330
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 12:58:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ayem Quarm wrote:I'm sure that CCP believes that the code that runs the timers is complex. I have noted several times that they are reluctant to modify it. I rememeber reading in a thread somewhere where a CCP dev outright expressed the dificulties associated with this code.
Most vetrans will rember certain bugs associated with the timers and how long it took CCP to fix them despite the fact they were obvious exploits. As well as the expoits there were numerous small bugs.
Timers are pretty much working as intended ATM more by luck than judgement. For me CCP is reluctant to re-open the can of worms. Easier to tweak the rat's stats. Holy crap i almost forgot about some plex exploits. im really glad that most are gone now. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
229
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 13:07:00 -
[77] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Wall of useful text.
Thank you for sharing this with us Ves.
Quote:...primarily because they view FW space as the riskiest at the moment,...
uhm...apparently they really don't understand it.
Anyway, with bacon and sugar in CSM, I hope we can push for timer rollbacks. I am quite happy if they can re-visit some useless faction mods and make them decent again.
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
179
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 13:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
Deerin wrote:Veskrashen wrote:..primarily because they view FW space as the riskiest at the moment,... uhm...apparently they really don't understand it. Low sec, and particularly FW low sec, is far more dangerous than operating in sov null these days. Some things are out of whack - stabbed plexers, bombers in L4 missions - but in general I feel CCP has it right with that opinion. Noone in FW lowsec would ever consider AFK ratting in a carrier or Ishtar, for example. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
330
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 13:32:00 -
[79] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:
7.They are concerned with the ease of getting and keeping high standings, the freeloader problem, and cross faction plexing issues. They asked about whether folks would be interested in some kind of standings decay over time due to inactivity, possibly linked to iHUB donations or PvP, which attendees were receptive to depending on implementation.
First of all veskrashen thx for all this information.
This is the only piece that concerns me. and i would say HELL NO. CCP already nerfed plex standings increases so that its almost impossible to climb up the standing ladder with them anymore. Which was how some of us in FW used to fund our pvp. (storyline missions). Some of us vets worked our literal asses off for these standings and our loyalty shall not deteriorate over time.
Having to occasionaly fire back and awox a friendly once in a while for various reasons, i have to grind up normal amarr mission storyline missions to maintain high standings. having these deteriorate over time just because __________ [insert whatever reason RL or just upset with the game reasons, or to busy doing other game aspects] is BS.
CCP could count on significantly less subscriptions for those of us in FW who have made this our endgame if this was implemented. Guilty until proven innocent is this policy and the fact that ccp even proposed this and even more scary that attendees were receptive is WTF. |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
81
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 14:05:00 -
[80] - Quote
Samuel Reaper wrote:Bienator II wrote:it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all.
Why are there timers in the first place? To force players to stay in space (its just the ultra short version of reinforcement timers), which ends up creating a conflict. Right now you can completely avoid the conflict while making progress.
Resets or rollbacks simply don't achieve the aim you identify here. The defender just drives the aggressor out of the plex and then flies off. He has no motivation to stay in place as the timer will roll back anyway and he can maintain the status quo - which is inherently a defensive victory - without ever capping a plex.
And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.
Basically the only effect of rollbacks is that a combat player can drive out farming alts from plexes, and it actually affects the farming profitability- while not reducing the LP income of legit FW players, sounds ideal tbfh.
As what comes to the topic, these are an improvement, but increasing rats is not a good solution.
So I suggest a structure "Military Complex Defence Unit" to replace the rats: easy to tweak it's shield/armor recharge rate and HP, and also to remove it's influence on PVP by making it only do damage when it's being shot.
In other words: to start the timer, you have to destroy a structure that tanks X hp/s, and only defends itself passively, i.e. does not shoot unless shot. It should act like gate guns with infinite tracking and flat dps, only shoot members of opposing militia when shot by member of opposing militia (does not react to friendly fire).
Ideally these structures should have much more tank than current rats, time spent shooting and tanking it could be compensated by shortening all plex timers if necessary.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2190
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 14:29:00 -
[81] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
It serves as a punishment for winning the engagement! How dare you run them out??!!
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
330
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 14:31:00 -
[82] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.
No. that is timer reset. not rollback
Timer reset: plex resets to zero Timer rollback: the plex ticks backwards.
timer reset has no place in this game as it is opened for abuse by defending players
timer rollback actually has a place in eve. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
229
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 14:35:00 -
[83] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Noone in FW lowsec would ever consider AFK ratting in a carrier or Ishtar, for example.
Of course they wouldn't ...why would they if you can just fit a condor with t1 cloak and t1 stabs and make more than triple times the income in the same time.
I don't think the non-cloak zone or nerfing of wcs's in plexes is going to help. In its simpliest form farming is this: If enemy is on supershort scan, warp away, avoid conflict, go to another plex even...and come back when enemy is gone. You don't really need to commit to your plex to capture it.
If there was a fast rollback feature (timers running 5x faster to reset to initial state) however, the enemy would just spend 1-2 minutes inside to reset the timer to its original state, undoing all the progress of the farmer.
At that point farmer would have to choose: Do I commit, stay and fight for my plex, or do I watch the enemy reset my timer.
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
330
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 14:41:00 -
[84] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Deerin wrote:Veskrashen wrote:..primarily because they view FW space as the riskiest at the moment,... uhm...apparently they really don't understand it. Low sec, and particularly FW low sec, is far more dangerous than operating in sov null these days. Some things are out of whack - stabbed plexers, bombers in L4 missions - but in general I feel CCP has it right with that opinion. Noone in FW lowsec would ever consider AFK ratting in a carrier or Ishtar, for example. back in the days or major unrestricted complexe's we used to run them with archons. just sayin. these things did happen.
and that WAS how some of us made our isk. through collecting minmatar dog tag's which were very profitable |
Rahelis
Viziam Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 15:22:00 -
[85] - Quote
Frist I want to thank Veskrashen for his sharing of much appreciated Information.
Surly CCP is fighting a multifornt war at this time, doing much stuff to get their game running for the next 2 or 3 years - with much more competition in their nice of the market.
Closing the world of darkness mmo is also something that will benefit us eve players.
So we FW guys have to be patient - as always.
I am glad to see that ppl like Veskrashen are present at the round table and heared at all. It is nice to have enemies like this guy!
I would also like to see full scale war in the empire, every faction against every faction. Cross faction farming is of no use.
@ pockets - get back into the game, bro, amarr needs ya! |
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1278
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 16:00:00 -
[86] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all....
I think you are right on this. But I do think it is a pve versus pvp issue. Ultimately the question is are you going to make the most progress for your faction by typically staying and fighting: pvp or are you going to make the most progress by avoiding other players: pve.
FW has always been about pve. CCP never implemented the mechanics that would make it more efficient to stay and rather than just run to another system and plex there.
BTW station lockouts also make it less efficient to stay and fight. If you could dock anywhere then you could stay and fight and even if you lose you could get back into the action right away. But now if you lose you may need to go several jumps just to reship losing even more time for your faction. Hence you are going to be more effective in the plexing war if you just avoid combat.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
82
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 16:01:00 -
[87] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.
No. that is timer reset. not rollback Timer reset: plex resets to zero Timer rollback: the plex ticks backwards. timer reset has no place in this game as it is opened for abuse by defending players timer rollback actually has a place in eve.
Ok, reset then.
Rollback has zero effect on the issue of farming, which is what people are trying to fix. Farmer warps back immediately after the PVP pilot leaves, making it essentially exactly the same as current situation.
Timer reset sets a price for being driven out of the plex. |
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1278
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 16:25:00 -
[88] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?
Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.
No. that is timer reset. not rollback Timer reset: plex resets to zero Timer rollback: the plex ticks backwards. timer reset has no place in this game as it is opened for abuse by defending players timer rollback actually has a place in eve. Ok, reset then. Rollback has zero effect on the issue of farming, which is what people are trying to fix. Farmer warps back immediately after the PVP pilot leaves, making it essentially exactly the same as current situation. Timer reset sets a price for being driven out of the plex.
CCP has many options here. resets, rollbacks, fast rollbacks, rollbacks only if enemy or neutral is in system or on grid or on grid with accell gate (allows fw pvpers to chase farmers out and not lose time in their own plex) dual timers and any of the various combinations of these. For example if you warp out with an enemy or neutral on grid its reset. If you warp out with an enemy/neutral in system it would just rollback. If you warp out with no enemy or neutral in system then your time stays. Nothing needs to be that complicated either. They just need to start implementing this. And honestly there is no reason they didn't do this right away in 2012 instead of messing with all the tiers and lp. By now they should be in the 2nd or 3rd iteration of how the plex timers work. In 2012 I believe they said they would do this and this was part of the plan. Now we are left wondering why the whole idea was apparently dropped.
But any of these ideas is are clearly going in the right direction they just need to start implementing them. Very few people care about occupancy in 99% of the systems now anyway so its not like anyone will be horribly upset if the first implementation of rollbacks doesn't work out perfectly.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2190
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Posted - 2014.05.05 16:30:00 -
[89] - Quote
Cearain wrote: I think you are right on this. But I do think it is a pve versus pvp issue. Ultimately the question is are you going to make the most progress for your faction by typically staying and fighting: pvp or are you going to make the most progress by avoiding other players: pve.
As a guy who has been in FW for a long time - the answer is fighting. For example: More was done to secure the warzone by recently beating the Caldari in Oicx, Enaluri, Innia, and Deven than by any number of afk plex farmers running stuff in backwater systems.
The map is not "flat" - it has terrain. And understanding that terrain is a major factor to being successful in FW. (The enemy is not defeated by taking Maintenault - it is defeated by taking Innia.) Of course, "defeat" is temporary since the Caldari can and will respawn in due time (due to FW mechanics, and willpower of the Caldari), but their recent losses have greatly affected the warzone.
I know you don't understand this stuff, but that's fine. You don't participate in FW and will therefore never "get it". |
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1278
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Posted - 2014.05.05 16:46:00 -
[90] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: I think you are right on this. But I do think it is a pve versus pvp issue. Ultimately the question is are you going to make the most progress for your faction by typically staying and fighting: pvp or are you going to make the most progress by avoiding other players: pve.
As a guy who has been in FW for a long time - the answer is fighting. For example: More was done to secure the warzone by recently beating the Caldari in Oicx, Enaluri, Innia, and Deven than by any number of afk plex farmers running stuff in backwater systems. The map is not "flat" - it has terrain. And understanding that terrain is a major factor to being successful in FW. (The enemy is not defeated by taking Maintenault - it is defeated by taking Innia.) Of course, "defeat" is temporary since the Caldari can and will respawn in due time (due to FW mechanics, and willpower of the Caldari), but their recent losses have greatly affected the warzone. I know you don't understand this stuff, but that's fine. You don't participate in FW and will therefore never "get it".
Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.
You think you are some sort of a military strategist because you figured out that blobbing caldari out of their home bases will be very disruptive to them. But this is just obvious and there really is very little thinking involved.
You can look at the "terrain" all you want. But in the end either you have the blob to force them out of the system or you don't. Opening up the other 95% of systems (what you call back waters) and bringing them into play would make fw much more strategic than it is now.
Station lockouts only decrease the smaller militias options and therefore make fw less strategically interesting. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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