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drillerkiller2004
Devil's Evil Spirits
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.05.04 07:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP constantly make changes in game to make it a bit easier for newer players and keep it fair.
What's fair about players//alliances owning T2 BPO's that were given to them 10/11 years prior to any of these guys starting up. Especially when there's no chance of them ever attaining them the same way.
CCP should set a future date and get rid of them, make T2 a level playing field of invention alone.
It's going to be even worse if the copy time for t2 prints is reduced......that was probably the only thing that stop the BPO holders from completely dominating ever part of the T2 market.
Now I totally expect to get flamed by the alliances or individuals that own the BPOs, but I'm sorry guys you will have to get over it. You've had it too good for too long.
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Sigras
Conglomo
739
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Posted - 2014.05.04 09:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
this is a common misconception. Any T2 BPO is far better if you sell it than if you actually use it.
Yes it nets you a fair profit margin but it isnt as much ISK as you would think, and it locks you into one single thing ever. It also ties up a METRIC TON of ISK in one object that could/should make you much more ISK with other investments. Also getting a T2 BPO is a huge risk; what if the item in question gets nerfed? What if something gets buffed and becomes better than what you make?
Lets look at the actual numbers for a fairly popular ship: the Vagabond
The vagabond sells for around 160,000,000 in jita all day. assuming perfect manufacture (duh) and ME/PE level 20
The build cost is around 116 million ISK giving you a nice profit margin, but you can only produce a max of 1 every 28.75 hours meaning you still only make around 1 billion ISK a month.
The last vagabond BPO that came up on the market had a bid of 200 billion ISK for it. Thats 16 years worth of manufacturing the darn thing!
TL;DR
T2 BPOs are worth more sold than produced from, and anyone who is currently holding on to them is either a collector or a moron. |
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
619
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 09:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
I suppose we should also remove all the unique and limited edition ships from the game? After all, there's only a finite number of them around and players who join the game in the future will never be able to get their hands on them the same way we did.
Life is not fair. EVE is not fair. These forums are not fair. I can only hope that you are wearing your fire-proof underpants...
Fleet Bookmarks
New Gravimetric Sites
Med Clones 2.0 |
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
197
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 09:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
EVE doesn't have matchmaking, and I like it that way. |
LiBraga
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
10
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Posted - 2014.05.04 09:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
During the Industry Panel yesterday @FanFest...
CCP have said that they will be removing T2 BPOs. Expect to hear more about it after the summer expansion, probably when they redo the Invention balancing.
And for all you T2 BPO owners... they did say that you'll receive some form of compensation.
If it moves.... You obviously didn't kill it the first time. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
475
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 09:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sigras wrote:this is a common misconception. Any T2 BPO is far better if you sell it than if you actually use it.
Yes it nets you a fair profit margin but it isnt as much ISK as you would think, and it locks you into one single thing ever. It also ties up a METRIC TON of ISK in one object that could/should make you much more ISK with other investments. Also getting a T2 BPO is a huge risk; what if the item in question gets nerfed? What if something gets buffed and becomes better than what you make?
Lets look at the actual numbers for a fairly popular ship: the Vagabond
The vagabond sells for around 160,000,000 in jita all day. assuming perfect manufacture (duh) and ME/PE level 20
The build cost is around 116 million ISK giving you a nice profit margin, but you can only produce a max of 1 every 28.75 hours meaning you still only make around 1 billion ISK a month.
The last vagabond BPO that came up on the market had a bid of 200 billion ISK for it. Thats 16 years worth of manufacturing the darn thing!
TL;DR
T2 BPOs are worth more sold than produced from, and anyone who is currently holding on to them is either a collector or a moron.
Your numbers. |
Klingon Admiral
Black Hole Cluster
75
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 09:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
I predict that the impact of T2 BPO on any T2 item with a somewhat wide use is negligible, as their numbers are very limited and, even if they are copied non-stop, can probable not even nearly keep up with the flow of invention T2 BPCs.
Most of the worth of T2 BPO does not come from their production capabilities, but from the fact that they are
- limited in number
- not increasing in number
As such, the value of a T2 BPO will never decrease, and it can always be sold for the same ISK (or even more) than it was bought for. Any ISk made with producing them is nothing more than a small bonus. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
475
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 09:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI. |
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Space-Brewery-Association
24eme Legion Etrangere
50
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 10:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI.
If tere is a solution that could be acceptable by all parties it will be hard to find.
I think it is the quality of BPC's from invention that is the problem.
If I invent a Tech 2 item then there should be a very small probability that it is a high ME /PE quality. There should be a means chance that they are as good as a researched Tech 2 BPO and there should be a chance that it is a poor quality invention with low ME/PE and, finally, even a small chance its a fail.
Anyone who bought a T2 BPO in the last 2 years can have no complaints. The nerf hads been on the cards for 4 years + |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
475
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 10:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI. If tere is a solution that could be acceptable by all parties it will be hard to find. I think it is the quality of BPC's from invention that is the problem. If I invent a Tech 2 item then there should be a very small probability that it is a high ME /PE quality. There should be a means chance that they are as good as a researched Tech 2 BPO and there should be a chance that it is a poor quality invention with low ME/PE and, finally, even a small chance its a fail. Anyone who bought a T2 BPO in the last 2 years can have no complaints. The nerf hads been on the cards for 4 years +
Or at least some decryptors that allow you to invent into the positive ME/TE values. ME1/2 is already enough to gain massively over ME-1. Of course these decryptors would be expensive depending on how often they drop, but it would also be an easy way to give 00/Low sec a better distinction over High sec, it would increase Exploration earnings with reasonable new items and Inventors had a chance to gain more profits.
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
570
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Posted - 2014.05.04 11:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Sigras wrote:this is a common misconception. Any T2 BPO is far better if you sell it than if you actually use it.
Yes it nets you a fair profit margin but it isnt as much ISK as you would think, and it locks you into one single thing ever. It also ties up a METRIC TON of ISK in one object that could/should make you much more ISK with other investments. Also getting a T2 BPO is a huge risk; what if the item in question gets nerfed? What if something gets buffed and becomes better than what you make?
Lets look at the actual numbers for a fairly popular ship: the Vagabond
The vagabond sells for around 160,000,000 in jita all day. assuming perfect manufacture (duh) and ME/PE level 20
The build cost is around 116 million ISK giving you a nice profit margin, but you can only produce a max of 1 every 28.75 hours meaning you still only make around 1 billion ISK a month.
The last vagabond BPO that came up on the market had a bid of 200 billion ISK for it. Thats 16 years worth of manufacturing the darn thing!
TL;DR
T2 BPOs are worth more sold than produced from, and anyone who is currently holding on to them is either a collector or a moron.
The big issue here though is that those BPOs were never bought, they were gifted to an elected few lucky people that had either vacation or otherwise free time to a sufficient degree at the right time to boost their chances to get some.
With those T2 BPOs, it was less of an issue that they did exist, but way more how they were distributed - and how it's now not fair if the big part of eve is cooking with water, and a few people have water mkII, without their primary asset being even remotely at risk.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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drillerkiller2004
Devil's Evil Spirits
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1
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Posted - 2014.05.04 20:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
LiBraga wrote:During the Industry Panel yesterday @FanFest...
CCP have said that they will be removing T2 BPOs. Expect to hear more about it after the summer expansion, probably when they redo the Invention balancing.
And for all you T2 BPO owners... they did say that you'll receive some form of compensation.
AWESOME!
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions
Headshot Gaming
372
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Posted - 2014.05.04 20:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
I dont like them in game, but its not because of fairness, there are plenty of un fair advantages in EVE, thats what makes it unique from other games. If you are going to suggest removing them, please use another justification other than, "unfair". |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions
Headshot Gaming
372
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 20:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
LiBraga wrote:During the Industry Panel yesterday @FanFest...
CCP have said that they will be removing T2 BPOs. Expect to hear more about it after the summer expansion, probably when they redo the Invention balancing.
And for all you T2 BPO owners... they did say that you'll receive some form of compensation.
This is another troll post, that was never said, please stick to the topic...infact can we get ISD to go ahead and edit his post? |
drillerkiller2004
Devil's Evil Spirits
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 20:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Also, let's not forget that a certain dev gifted their alliances T2 BPOs. Granted when found out they were all taken back, but I don't believe that the profits ever were.
I don't believe it was a fair system though at all........if it was then I would have won some :o) |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2188
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 20:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
If tere is a solution that could be acceptable by all parties it will be hard to find.
LOL, who said all parties need to have an acceptable solution. Get rid of the damn things. They are unfair.
Give them enough copies on their BPOs for like 2 months* of production and be done with it.
* pick whatever time scale you want. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2188
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 20:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Octoven wrote:I dont like them in game, but its not because of fairness, there are plenty of un fair advantages in EVE, thats what makes it unique from other games. If you are going to suggest removing them, please use another justification other than, "unfair"**. "Ridiculously unfair" work?
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Sigras
Conglomo
741
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 22:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI.
So you're telling me that if I gave you a choice between a vagabond BPO and 200 billion ISK right now, you'd take the vagabond BPO? because thats the choice BPO holders make every day. There are dozens of people with more money than math credits who are chomping at the bit to get a T2 BPO for ridiculous prices.
Im assuming your goal is to make the most money fastest, and T2 BPOs are not the way to do that. In fact, if you have a T2 BPO the way to make the most ISK fastest is to sell it and get into trading. |
Sigras
Conglomo
741
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 22:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:Sigras wrote:this is a common misconception. Any T2 BPO is far better if you sell it than if you actually use it.
Yes it nets you a fair profit margin but it isnt as much ISK as you would think, and it locks you into one single thing ever. It also ties up a METRIC TON of ISK in one object that could/should make you much more ISK with other investments. Also getting a T2 BPO is a huge risk; what if the item in question gets nerfed? What if something gets buffed and becomes better than what you make?
Lets look at the actual numbers for a fairly popular ship: the Vagabond
The vagabond sells for around 160,000,000 in jita all day. assuming perfect manufacture (duh) and ME/PE level 20
The build cost is around 116 million ISK giving you a nice profit margin, but you can only produce a max of 1 every 28.75 hours meaning you still only make around 1 billion ISK a month.
The last vagabond BPO that came up on the market had a bid of 200 billion ISK for it. Thats 16 years worth of manufacturing the darn thing!
TL;DR
T2 BPOs are worth more sold than produced from, and anyone who is currently holding on to them is either a collector or a moron. The big issue here though is that those BPOs were never bought, they were gifted to an elected few lucky people that had either vacation or otherwise free time to a sufficient degree at the right time to boost their chances to get some. With those T2 BPOs, it was less of an issue that they did exist, but way more how they were distributed - and how it's now not fair if the big part of eve is cooking with water, and a few people have water mkII, without their primary asset being even remotely at risk.
Im going to assume you were not in game for the BPO lottery because you're misrepresenting how it occurred.
When the lottery was active, people started research jobs at different corporations accumulating Research Points (RP) like tickets in a raffle. Then periodically CCP would spawn T2 BPOs into the game raffle style. The people who "won" T2 BPOs lost all of their RP in exchange for the BPO, and everyone else got to keep theirs.
In 2007 when the lottery ended and invention was introduced, the people who had been accumulating RP for years could then turn them into datacores, at that time most of them received billions of ISK in datacores.
TL;DR
yes, the people who won T2 BPOs in the lottery paid for them in opportunity cost. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
419
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Posted - 2014.05.05 00:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sigras wrote:
TL;DR
yes, the people who won T2 BPOs in the lottery paid for them in opportunity cost.
you are fighting a losing battle, These people have never owned a t2 bpo. They don't know except for a few isk printing ones these are not the great things they make them out to be. I know of many ships unloved for years the t2 owner got no bene's.....no one was buying them in droves. We can also bring in the great named gear vs t2 mod whining debates. Some items as we know you'd be better off named gearing it. here we see many t2 owners not making out. Smart inventors don't even bother here, they are already a leg up on the t2 owner lol. If original owners like you said, they dumped lots of rp for that BPO not worth much.
I was a t2 bpo owner, twice. Bought mine. They made more isk flipping than making. My spreadsheets for profitablility factored in cost of bpo buy for ROI. They do no know how slowly that cost chips away. Especially when market shifts or you get the "free stuff" (cores, mins, decryptors, etc) builders flooding the market. Or you get the builders who are on a bad string of luck and suck up losses to quicksell to liquidate some isk for other ideas they have.
I sold mine when one day I realied you know....my invention spamming was better isk.
It's been said ccp will pull these above it seems. I will laugh when for some they realize this won't be the windfall they think it is. I have seen this firsthand. I several times have said don't invent/build in markets with t2 bpo's. I followed my own advice. Some days making blops paid me well. Other times....I had no clue how the hell other blops makers were making any isk as their prices had me all kinds of confused. As their prices had me going jsut what the hell were you cutting off the build cost.
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Quintessen
Messengers of Judah
Socius Inter Nos
399
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Posted - 2014.05.05 00:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP has said they want to do something about T2 BPOs. I'm more concerned about the new T1 research times that will put anyone just getting started into industry after June at a huge, insurmountable disadvantage.
Research times are about to get ~4 times as long. Each year of pre-Kronos research will count as four years of post-Kronos research. That's a pretty insane advantage and one that shouldn't exist. I really hope CCP comes back from that decision and makes the research times a bit lower. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
330
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Posted - 2014.05.05 00:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sigras wrote:i own a t2 bpo and i will fabricate evidence to support my opinions
t2 bpos are going away deal with it.
and yes they are insanely profitable. you've had your 10 years to make your trillions of isk. that ship is sailing.
some t2 bpos arnt profitable. sorry those of you who got the broken end of the game.
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Sigras
Conglomo
743
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Posted - 2014.05.05 06:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Sigras wrote:i own a t2 bpo and i will fabricate evidence to support my opinions t2 bpos are going away deal with it. and yes they are insanely profitable. you've had your 10 years to make your trillions of isk. that ship is sailing. some t2 bpos arnt profitable. sorry those of you who got the broken end of the game.
Do you have a problem with my math or my logic? or are you simply ignoring everything except your pre conceived ideas because you dont know how to think critically?
Im betting on that last one. |
Maruk Ihnati
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
21
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Posted - 2014.05.05 09:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
One of the major flavors of this game that keeps me playing is History. The fact that its a sigle universe and it always has been, makes it so that your actions may be added to the EvE player lore and history.
CPP should know better what their impact to the whole market is. Nerfing them and buffing invention is what the solution should be. If they get cheap enough and at some point very few entities accumulate all BPO's, then additional nerfing so that they don't get to be a manipulative power in the hands of the few, like players like to do.
Don't just delete history, let them stay for the remembering of times long past. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2190
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Posted - 2014.05.05 11:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:I sold mine when one day I realied you know....my invention spamming was better isk.
Excellent then. Since they suck so bad people won't mind getting rid of them. +1 |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
330
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Posted - 2014.05.05 13:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Sigras wrote:i own a t2 bpo and i will fabricate evidence to support my opinions t2 bpos are going away deal with it. and yes they are insanely profitable. you've had your 10 years to make your trillions of isk. that ship is sailing. some t2 bpos arnt profitable. sorry those of you who got the broken end of the game. Do you have a problem with my math or my logic? or are you simply ignoring everything except your pre conceived ideas because you dont know how to think critically? Im betting on that last one.
yes your math is wrong AND so is your logic. bla bla bla no bla bla bla |
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
209
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Posted - 2014.05.05 13:53:00 -
[27] - Quote
Unless I missed a specific note, with the changes to copy and manufacturing t2 BPOs are getting a buff in the summer.
I have a couple t2 bpos and I think many of you are horribly overestimated their profits. Yes almost all of them turn a profit but its pretty small on all but a couple, you can make much better isk doing invention. You trade off convenience for not needing to keep doing inv jobs and just keep pumping them out, but much slower than t2 bpcs will. T2 bpos have had their man and copy times massively increased to adjust how they compare to invented t2 bpcs. Where a bpc might build in 20 min the bpo takes 2 hours.
The Wormhole Kid |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
836
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Posted - 2014.05.05 13:56:00 -
[28] - Quote
There are a handful of t2 bpos that are actually valuable
Ill leave which ones up to the reader
These bpos are for low volume high value items, in which currently the cost savings are the entire invented profit
This when combined with backlog currently restricts invention as a successful path for production
The downside is that when the bpos go the items will be much more expensive |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5629
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Posted - 2014.05.05 14:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yes, it's amazing now many people that are not actually involved in Invention are eagerly pushing for the price of all T2 goods to skyrocket. 
As to the inventors, I get it. You don't like the need to keep your prices at a reasonable level.
That's perfectly understandable, but since CCP hasn't actually said they are going to remove T2 BPO's you may have to wait a bit before you receive free reign to screw over your fellow pod pilots.
Also, you should probably not listen to Goon propaganda... especially when they have a vested interest right now for buying up every T2 BPO they can bluff people into parting with before the next expansion. 
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors.
If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
478
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Posted - 2014.05.05 14:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
Sigras wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Looking at the value of the BPO is pointless in my opinion. What you should look at is the fact that every single BPO holder can undercut any invention result as much as they desire. They don't even need to dominate the market, they can just constantly put their cheap products into the market to keep invention barely profitable, while still making good money. That is the problem of the T2 BPOs, not the fact that they are expensive to acquire or that you need to make a lot of money to get the ROI. So you're telling me that if I gave you a choice between a vagabond BPO and 200 billion ISK right now, you'd take the vagabond BPO? because thats the choice BPO holders make every day. There are dozens of people with more money than math credits who are chomping at the bit to get a T2 BPO for ridiculous prices. Im assuming your goal is to make the most money fastest, and T2 BPOs are not the way to do that. In fact, if you have a T2 BPO the way to make the most ISK fastest is to sell it and get into trading.
I would have taken the BPO a year or two back if I had the money back then; nowadays and with all the changes and possible removal of these BPOs, I would take the money instead and ignore the sweet market domination and juicy profits. I am not after fast money at all, I am after entertainment and do whatever I have to get it for me.
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