CCP Fozzie has indicated that the new Gecko already has the Kronos stats. So come June 3, when the drone interfacing skill is cut from 100% to 50% you can expect to see Gecko damage nerfed by approximately 6.3%.

Drones keep getting killed, bit by bit, just like high sec.
I have switched to a gun boat for my PvE since drones' effective DPS is a shadow of what it was a year ago.
And the faction damage mods on the way won't even begin to address the ridiculous nerfs drones have endured, let alone all the ones lined up in 4 weeks.

CCP Fozzie has indicated that the new Gecko already has the Kronos stats. So come June 3, when the drone interfacing skill is cut from 100% to 50% you can expect to see Gecko damage nerfed by approximately 6.3%.

I am pretty sure that is not what they said, mostly.

I am pretty sure that is not what they said, mostly.

Drone Interface is being reduced from 20% per level to 10% per level, that is correct. However that 50% difference is being applied on the drones themselves so that new players have higher damage drones and older players stay the same.

And what fozzie apparently has said is that this difference has already been applied to the gecko so come June the only thing that is going to change about the gecko is the skill-nerf.

I haven't read anything about this myself but that's what i gather from op's post.

And what fozzie apparently has said is that this difference has already been applied to the gecko so come June the only thing that is going to change about the gecko is the skill-nerf. I haven't read anything about this myself but that's what i gather from op's post.

And what fozzie apparently has said is that this difference has already been applied to the gecko so come June the only thing that is going to change about the gecko is the skill-nerf.

I haven't read anything about this myself but that's what i gather from op's post.

You're correct - it's only a 6.3% nerf with the new Rattlesnake. It's a 25% nerf to any other hull.
Feel free to let me know if I made a mistake anywhere on the math...

Gecko (pre-Kronos)
GÇó 128 damage, 2.05x amplifier, 2.0x drone interface, 0.25x heavy drone (2.5x total)
GÇó (2) * 2.05 * 128 * 2.5 (skills) * 1.778 (4 T2 DDAs) / 4s ROF = 583.2 dps

Gecko (post-Kronos)
GÇó 128 damage, 2.05x amplifier, 1.5x drone interface, 0.25x heavy drone (1.875 total)
* (2) * 2.05 * 128 * 1.875 (skills) * 1.778 (4 T2 DDAs) / 4s ROF = 437.4 daps

I wonder how the rattlesnake will be with 1 gecko VS 2 heavies/sentries in terms of paper DPS and applied DPS, and how quickly you would lose those drones.

After Kronos, 2 heavies will actually provide more DPS and applied damage than a single Gecko since you can tailor it to specific resistances.

Drones keep getting killed, bit by bit, just like high sec.

CCP Fozzie has indicated that the new Gecko already has the Kronos stats. So come June 3, when the drone interfacing skill is cut from 100% to 50% you can expect to see Gecko damage nerfed by approximately 6.3%.

I'm pretty sure I heard Fozzie say that the drone damage was being changed to compensate for the 100% to 50% drop. The change in the skill affect is to limit the apparent requirement to train to level V and not to nerf the damage output of drones.

2 Ogres will still have less speed, less tracking and probably less EHP
2 valkyries will still have less damage.
The future of the Gecko is looking fine, instead of being the absolute god of drones.

yes, all other drones are getting a 33% boost.

the gecko has been added to the game with that boost already applied. therefore the gap between geckos and other drones will be closing up come kronos.

I understand. Probably why we only get 3 each to prevent an uber Gecko meta in between now and Kronos.

Give people free super drones for a month and they complain.

Drones keep getting killed, bit by bit, just like high sec.

And the faction damage mods on the way won't even begin to address the ridiculous nerfs drones have endured

Seems stupid to nerf the gecko when its a limited commodity.

Drones keep getting killed, bit by bit, just like high sec.

Then again, they're not actually nerfing the Gecko, so that turns out ok.

Whether directly or indirectly, it's the only drone getting weaker.

So technicalities aside, any sane person would call it a nerf.

Whether directly or indirectly, it's the only drone getting weaker.

So technicalities aside, any sane person would call it a nerf.

NICE SEGUE

CCP Fozzie has indicated that the new Gecko already has the Kronos stats. So come June 3, when the drone interfacing skill is cut from 100% to 50% you can expect to see Gecko damage nerfed by approximately 6.3%.

slight of hand.. "don't pay attention to those nerfs behind the curtain.. look at that gecko!"

the drone isn't getting weaker at all.
people who don't read dev blogs would call it a nerf.

You are correct, the drone is not getting weaker, the skill applying to the drone is, thus causing the drones performance under a pilot with that skill to drop.

doesn't change the fact that the gecko isn't getting nerfed.

Don't be surprised when your dps drops 25%...

Don't be surprised when your dps drops 25%...

Don't be surprised when your dps drops 25%...

GǪwhich still isn't going to happen because of any kind of Gecko nerf.

Drone nerf, Gecko nerf - same difference...

doesn't change the fact that the gecko isn't getting nerfed.

except no drones are being nerfed. all drones are being buffed, the gecko is being untouched. you have red the devblog, right?

Drone nerf, Gecko nerf - same difference...

If your definition of a nerf excludes the buff of all comparable items but the item in question, sure, it wasn't nerfed. Though I think you will find that others believe that definition to be reasonable.

1. See revised title.
2. Gecko dps will drop 6.3-25% on June 3.

if you want to change the definition of nerf, feel free.
however that also doesn't change the fact that the gecko isn't getting nerfed.

Drones keep getting killed, bit by bit, just like high sec.
I have switched to a gun boat for my PvE since drones' effective DPS is a shadow of what it was a year ago.
And the faction damage mods on the way won't even begin to address the ridiculous nerfs drones have endured, let alone all the ones lined up in 4 weeks.

1. See revised title.
2. Gecko dps will drop 6.3-25% on June 3.

So a nerf or buff is not related to performance changes? Even when those changes are limited to a single item or item type? Seems dishonest to completely decouple the 2 concepts.

remind me what changes are being done to the gecko?

It's losing 50% of the drone interface bonus June 3.
But you're right, I must be imagining that it could possible have an effect...

So a nerf or buff is not related to performance changes?

It's losing 50% of the drone interface bonus June 3.

i see exactly 0 changes to the gecko in your post.
hence we must conclude it's not being nerfed, you know based on the fact that it isn't being changed.

You're not stupid enough to think you're talking about the whole picture here.

We can conclude that you have nothing insightful to offer.

No. It retains the full bonus from drone interfacing. Drone interfacing is getting nerfed, but drone interfacing is something vastly different from the Gecko drone. The Gecko drone is not being changed in any way, which rather rules out any kind of nerf.

We can conclude that you have nothing insightful to offer.

You're arguing semantics.

You're arguing semantics. The Gecko still gets 100% of the drone interfacing bonus. Unfortunately, it's being reduced 50%, which cuts the total damage output of the Gecko from current levels by 25%.

We can conclude that you have nothing insightful to offer.

We can conclude that you have nothing insightful to offer.

good job

Well, pessimists will be pessimistic.

What's that other saying? "Give a moth a cookie, and it will want a glass of milk."

No. I'm arguing that you got your facts wrong. The Gecko is not getting nerfed GÇö it can't, since it is not being changed in any way whatsoever.

Only relative to the item's previous stats, and those stats are pretty much universally going up, except in the case of the Gecko, where they stay the same since they arrive pre-buffed and nothing changes.

So: no change GÇö no nerf.

This is where I am confused, for any pilot with drone interfacing trained the output of the gecko is going down. This is a change, but for some reason, since the change isn't on the base stats of the item itself it doesn't count as a nerf? I can genuinely say that this reasoning doesn't make sense to me. I would expect that if any series of interactions is changed in a way to benefit or harm a single entity, regardless of whether the entity itself was changed, would count as a buff or nerf.

IE: Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?

You don't get to take your own interpretations of the word's meaning and stamp it as fact.

because it's drone interfacing that's being nerfed, not the gecko.
sure the result is the gecko doing less damage - but that's not because the gecko is getting nerfed; drone interfacing is.

At the same time the gecko is the only drone not being compensated.

The indisputable fact is that with the release of Kronos, the Gecko will

This is where I am confused, for any pilot with drone interfacing trained the output of the gecko is going down.

Eliminating the controlled burst skill would be a nerf to Lasers and to a lesser degree hybrid weapons, or so I would reason, but I take it you would disagree?

At the same time the gecko is the only drone not being compensated.

GǪhave the exact same stats it has today since it comes pre-buffed to match the Kronos drone balance. It does not change. It is not getting nerfed. This is indeed the indisputable fact.

GǪhave the exact same stats it has today since it comes pre-buffed to match the Kronos drone balance. It does not change. It is not getting nerfed. This is indeed the indisputable fact.

Your entire problem is that you confuse a support skill to be an aspect of the drone. It is not. It is its own separate thing. Drone Interfacing is being nerfed. Geckos remain the same GÇö they are getting neither buffed nor nerfed.

Not quite. For any pilot with Drone Interfacing trained, the bonus from Drone Interfacing is going down. Almost all drones are getting buffed, but the Gecko is not because it was introduced pre-buffed to match the new balance. The Gecko remains the same GÇö neither buffed nor nerfed GÇö and DI is giving it, and every other drone in the game, a smaller bonus than before (wellGǪ every other non-capital drone at least).

It would be a nerf to cap-based turrets as a class just like the DI nerf is a nerf to drones as a class. It would not be a nerf to Megapulse Lasers just like how the DI nerf is not a nerf to Geckos GÇö it's a nerf to DI.

It was compensated before it was even implemented.

An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

yes it does; that's the entire point.

yes it does; that's the entire point.

No it doesn't and restricting the definition of nerf in this way is unhelpful.

... pedantry and nothing else.

An item does not have to be changed in order to be nerfed.

Nice rant post, but that still leaves the fact that an indirect change that affects the effectiveness of a Gecko

i'm not restricting the definition.

Tippia by your logic all drones besides the Gecko are getting a buff due to their stats being increased in compensation for the changes to Drone Interfacing.
Which is blatantly false.

My definition:
Nerf - A change made to a game that reduces the effectiveness or desirability of something in the game.
Your definition:
A change made to something in a game that reduces the effectiveness or desirability of that something.

Yours is more restrictive. So yes, you are restricting it.

No, it is pretty much exactly what is happening.
The Gecko got the exact same increase GÇö it just got it before all other drones.

making up your own definitions for words doesn't give you credibility, it removes it.

The Gecko should not have been released pre-Kronos with post-Kronos stats.

So you have no credibility then. Glad we cleared that up.

good job my credibility has no bearing on facts, they exist regardless of my credibility.

It would be a nerf to cap-based turrets as a class just like the DI nerf is a nerf to drones as a class. It would not be a nerf to Megapulse Lasers just like how the DI nerf is not a nerf to Geckos GÇö it's a nerf to DI.

Your "fact" is something you've never supported beyond "this is true because I said so."
If this is some well-established definition, then whose is it and where did it come from?

It's losing 50% of the drone interface bonus June 3.
But you're right, I must be imagining that it could possible have an effect...

Pulled straight from his ass, I imagine.

Good god this is dumb.

Who in their right mind thought that the heavy drone newly that is literally better than a fighter and was introduced literally weeks before a drone rebalance patch is going to stay that overpowered relative to everything else?

What did you smoke and where can I get some?

Good god this is dumb.

Who in their right mind thought that the heavy drone newly that is literally better than a fighter and was introduced literally weeks before a drone rebalance patch is going to stay that overpowered relative to everything else?

What did you smoke and where can I get some?

still a more accurate source than the one cited for the gecko's nerf since it isn't being changed, and all.

We will be minimizing this problem by reducing the bonus from the Drone Interfacing skill to 10% per level, and building the extra damage into the base stats of the drones. That means that on average, all drones will be gaining about 33% more base damage and a character with Drone Interfacing trained to level 5 will see their damage remain constant (ignoring for a moment all the other drone changes being made in this release)

Skill really doesn't matter at this point, all they did was shift the bonus from being purely skills to being skills and drones. ALL drones will be gaining 33% more damage. The Gecko will not since it has already been modified. This does not nerf the Gecko in anyway, it just buffs already existing drones. Yes, there will not be a larger gap between the two but that in no way constitutes a nerf. If you only use the Gecko all the time every time, you will still be getting the same damage, they same HP, and performance as you are now, that is not changing in any way. The only thing this change is affecting is other drones and thus you will get buffs to help be more competitive with the Gecko.

To say that this effectively kills the Gecko's usage is a bit shortsighted if you ask me. The Gecko is getting no loss in DPS, it just appears that way if you are using other heavies because the gap is smaller.

Skill really doesn't matter at this point, all they did was shift the bonus from being purely skills to being skills and drones. ALL drones will be gaining 33% more damage. The Gecko will not since it has already been modified. This does not nerf the Gecko in anyway, it just buffs already existing drones. Yes, there will not be a larger gap between the two but that in no way constitutes a nerf. If you only use the Gecko all the time every time, you will still be getting the same damage, they same HP, and performance as you are now, that is not changing in any way. The only thing this change is affecting is other drones and thus you will get buffs to help be more competitive with the Gecko.

To say that this effectively kills the Gecko's usage is a bit shortsighted if you ask me. The Gecko is getting no loss in DPS, it just appears that way if you are using other heavies because the gap is smaller.

The Gecko should not have been released pre-Kronos with post-Kronos stats.
It should have had its damage on delivery pre-nerfed and then adjusted in Kronos along with every other drone.

Why?

You know exactly why.

I really don't get this thread.

Two weeks ago no one even heard of the gecko. Now we all have free geckos, and people complain that the free stuff we got won't be as wtfbbqpwn in 1 month.

Y'all are wierd.

Good god this is dumb.

Who in their right mind thought that the heavy drone newly that is literally better than a fighter and was introduced literally weeks before a drone rebalance patch is going to stay that overpowered relative to everything else?

What did you smoke and where can I get some?

It's not about entitlement. It doesn't make sense to release an uber powerful drone and say "oh we don't actually intend it to be this strong, but you get a few weeks of it anyway because we're too lazy to give it proper stats for the interim/too stupid to hold off on release".

If we didn't get anything for EVE's birthday few would have noticed and even fewer would have cared.

So CCP does something nice for drone users everywhere, giving them 1 month of super drone that does an additional X% damage, and that's a bad thing?

People are asy to spoil, easy to upset and feel entitled to, well, everything.

And yea, I wish they'd puff puff pass that good green to me too (in game lol)

But this feels like just a "here's a shiny new toy, go play with it" more than any gift I can recall receiving in the past.

I prefer my sandbox MMO to have less gimmicks, not more.

Those were all pretty minor. I suppose the Gnosis does come close.

I mean I see your point but still, if you're going to release something, don't release it with blatantly inflated strength for a month just because you think it'll be nice.

Put more simply: CCP put something in the game, knowingly in a much stronger state than what they intend for the game.
Do you see why this causes problems?

Nope. The Chameleon, Utu, Merocha, Chremoas , and Adrastia are all much stronger than the ships intended for their respective roles. They are however limited in quantity, so as not to affect the overall balance of the game.

The gecko is a much stronger drone then intended for it's role (allegedly). It is however limited in time, so as not to affect the overall balance of the game.

Except a month of overpowered drones that everyone gets has a much more profound effect on game balance...

lol, semantics .... almost as bad as D&D and 40K rules lawyers.

Happens around here all the time.

People bitching about finding $10 in the street because it wasn't $20.

I'm making 200mil/hr in highsec right now. I'm making that amount of ISK while typing this message on the forums. I could go take a poop right now, come back, and I'd still be making progress towards that 200mil/hr.

High-sec income is completely over the top due to the ability to multibox accounts in this game.
You cannot multibox in non-highsec with the same safety and therefore efficiency.

I understand the high-sec income nerfs are bothersome for players with solo accounts, but consider what happens if they don't nerf it. People like me continue to make 200mil/hr for almost no effort. If you have one account, get the hell out of high-sec is my suggestion.

Now, back on topic..... the current gecko is completely OP. Perhaps with this change the gecko will actually be balanced now. Remember it still has it's absurd EHP, ridiculous speed/tracking for a heavy drone, and all the other goodies.

Pretty much this... Everyone started making big plans with their free 20 bucks but soon discovered the next day we were being slipped a Ten-spot instead. A little ungrateful I agree but damn it, I had some big plans for my 20 bucks....

Put more simply: CCP put something in the game, knowingly in a much stronger state than what they intend for the game.
Do you see why this causes problems?

I thought the complaining was because folk found $20 in the street only to be told that very shortly said $20 would in fact be worth $10.

yes, you get dumb people crying nerf where there is none.

actually, they're complaining that they found -ú20 in the street, and then the price of their favourite thing went up. except they seem to think it's an issue with their find, rather than an issue with the pricing.

Still waiting on the source of that definition.

keep waiting, i have no interest in really having a discussion with you.

Did not like his definition, so in effect you accused him of making one up to suit his argument, so you made one up to suit your own instead.

+1 to James then.

actually, he changed his very definition

Yeah, that can happen when there's no official definition to work from, which is something you kind of need for your argument to hold any water.

If we didn't get anything for EVE's birthday few would have noticed and even fewer would have cared.

Those were all pretty minor. I suppose the Gnosis does come close.

I mean I see your point but still, if you're going to release something, don't release it with blatantly inflated strength for a month just because you think it'll be nice.

The stats issue is a huge part of why I feel like they're gimmicks though. It would have been fine if they were released with realistic stats, but they weren't. They have artificially inflated stats for no reason other than the fact that they were released too early.

Except a month of overpowered drones that everyone gets has a much more profound effect on game balance than some AT prize ships that mostly won't even see combat at all outside of the AT.

Except when we add the other changes that aren't to the Gecko, suddenly the Gecko has 25% lower DPS.
It's directly affected by a change. That change may as well have been to it.

it holds water fine.

if we removed everything that isn't a gecko change from the kronos expansion, then deployed kronos... well it'd be the fastest patch in the history of eve, and the gecko would remain as it is (because you know, not getting nerfed)

Thus in that case, yes, there would be no gecko nerf as it effectiveness in the game as a whole would remain unchanged.

exactly, there is no gecko nerf.

Too bad that isn't what is happening and there is a gecko nerf. Also, selective quoting does not a valid argument make.

except there isn't a gecko nerf, read the thread.

i wouldn't have to selectively quote, if you'd read the thread and not **** post.

the base stats aren't.

hence, it's not being nerfed.
you've been told several times.

Yes, it is. A nerf to a skill is a nerf to the items using that skill, conceded by even Tippia indirectly.

nobody has ever denied that drone interfacing is being nerfed. in fact, we've pointed it out several times.

Which is a nerf to all drones save those being compensated. The Gecko is not being compensated, thus it is being nerfed.

no, it's a nerf to the drone interfacing skill. all drones are being buffed, except the gecko which is remaining unchanged.

you know the DI skill is being nerfed, you know the gecko isn't. you're aware of the facts.

To neckbeard or not to neckbeard, that is the question

CCP Fozzie has indicated that the new Gecko already has the Kronos stats. So come June 3, when the drone interfacing skill is cut from 100% to 50% - you can expect to see Gecko damage drop from current levels by 25% (6.3% on drone bonused hulls such as the new Rattlesnake).

Yes, the Gecko is being nerfed. It doesn't exist in a vacuum isolated from the drone interfacing skill. Thus a drone interfacing nerf is a Gecko nerf.

of course it doesn't exist in isolation.
except, that doesn't change the fact that the gecko isn't being nerfed.

the drone interfacing nerf, is a drone interfacing nerf.

Which will affect gecko drones relative to how they perform pre- Kronos.

of course it doesn't exist in isolation.
except, that doesn't change the fact that the gecko isn't being nerfed.

the drone interfacing nerf, is a drone interfacing nerf.

I don't see how it's even actually possible to nerf something that is about to be buffed.
They aren't changing the stats, unless it's to maintain their current capabilities, in which case, it isn't actually a nerf.

So, HTFU.

Which is a drone nerf. Nerfing a skill nerfs the items affected by that skill. The exception would be if the base stats are changing to compensate, but as you state, that isn't happening, thus the nerf.

It's not retaining it's current capabilities

drones aren't being nerfed, they're being buffed (except the gecko).
drone interfacing is being nerfed.
if you're still confused at this point, i suggest you read the devblog.

I'm aware of the devblog. Doesn't change that the gecko is being nerfed by was of the changes to drone interfacing. I've demonstrated I'm aware of the blog and this thread.
Feel free to demonstrate how damage with skills, specifically drone interfacing, is not being changed.

I can't believe this hit 10 pages...

the gecko isn't being nerfed, it's not being changed.
seems you don't understand that simple concept.

kung fu panda MMO...

The Gecko doesn't exist in isolation, and thus doesn't need to be changed directly to be nerfed. It can be nerfed by any number of external but interacting factors. Factors like the Drone interfacing skill.

The Gecko doesn't exist in isolation, and thus doesn't need to be changed directly to be nerfed. It can be nerfed by any number of external but interacting factors. Factors like the Drone interfacing skill.

So if the Gecko had been introduced as-is after the skill change, you'd be perfectly happy with it?

I can't believe this thread is even a thing.

So if the Gecko had been introduced as-is after the skill change, you'd be perfectly happy with it?

except that's the drone interfacing skill being nerfed, not the gecko.
look, we've been through this. instead of posting more crap just go through the posts in this thread to realise whatever you're about to post has been addressed already.

Theres a lot of bloody faces from that brick wall.

Its amazing the amount of repetition going on in the hope of a different result.....

Still not as bad as the DUST forums, last weekend....

True, though there was a vast amount of suicides I heard too

You've yet to actually directly address the fact that nerfing drone interfacing nerfs the gecko.

it has been addressed several times.
nerfing drone interfacing is a nerf to drone interfacing, not the gecko.

So you are saying that nerfing drone interfacing has no effect on the items that drone interfacing effects? That doesn't logically make sense.

it has been addressed several times.
nerfing drone interfacing is a nerf to drone interfacing, not the gecko.

no, i'm not saying that at all. read what i wrote.

I did, You said that a nerf to drone interfacing is not a nerf to the gecko, which can only be true if drone interfacing has no effect on the gecko.

You obviously missed the part where Caldari drones are getting a HUGE tracking and speed bonus, so they will be able to more effectively apply their DPS, putting them on-part with Gallente and Minmatar drones.

Last time I checked, Geckos are technically Caldari.

You obviously missed the part where Caldari drones are getting a HUGE tracking and speed bonus, so they will be able to more effectively apply their DPS, putting them on-part with Gallente and Minmatar drones.

Last time I checked, Geckos are technically Caldari.

I'm not unhappy with it as is or as will be after the drone interfacing change. My participation has nothing to do with dissatisfaction with what will hit like a pair of ogre II's while being faster and tracking better.

Edit: To be clear, my position is that a negative change is happening to the gecko through a factor external to it, which qualifies as a nerf to it, which is a fact that is in no way related to my opinion as to whether it will be still desirable afterwards.