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Kuronaga
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
273
   |
Posted - 2014.05.09 10:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Kinda seems like they aren't. On a professional level isn't this a bit irresponsible?
The original vision for player owned deadspace areas with modular POS's didn't have one. The "vision" for this, as very few people remember, resulted in a kind of pvpve experience. This is all but forgotten now, and clearly it went nowhere because it was just an idea in someones head that nobody bothered to actually sit down and hammer out.
Incarna didn't have one. They STILL don't know what they want to do with the WiS component. This ultimately resulted in the inability to create a product anybody wanted.
Dust/Legion didn't have one. They speak vaguely of things like PvE and sandbox areas yet have never been able to say anything concrete about how they are connected to big picture of new eden or how the gameplay works. The inability to clearly state what was wanted out of the game early on also resulted in several years of development time being wasted on hardware that couldn't go anywhere with it, as well as the procurement of an engine that can't do anything on a grand scale easily.
Valkyrie clearly doesn't have one, as that was an experiment that just sorta happened and took off. It might be the only project that really justifies not having a design document as its success was kinda bred out of thin air.
I can't help but think that Seagull's vision for EVE, pretty as it may be, is probably also lacking in design. It might be incorrect to say that, but, given the track record it's not really unreasonable to assume so either.
The lack of knowing where we are going is troubling to me. I feel like we're always traveling with a compass but never a map. |
Karen Avioras
Unsung Heroes
The Volition Cult
578
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Posted - 2014.05.09 10:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
*sighs* |
Kuronaga
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
273
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 10:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
Well, that was insightful. |
Solecist Project's Alt
Wildly Inept Pacifists
151
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 10:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
And this is relevant how?
Matters for whom?
Have you tried a blog instead? I've heard blogs attract lots of people
with irrelevant opinions who love to read irrelevant opinions of others.
Give it a try! |
Kuronaga
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
273
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 10:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
I heard the forums were for discussing things too.
Have I been lead wrong this whole time?! |
Solecist Project's Alt
Wildly Inept Pacifists
151
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 10:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kuronaga wrote:I heard the forums were for discussing things too.
Have I been lead wrong this whole time?!
Discussing what exactly?
All you did was crap your thoughts in here,
based on nothing but assumptions.
What relevance does it have to talk about this?
What need is there to agree or disagree with your assumptions?
Do you work for CCP?
And it seems to rather belong to OOPE, too! |
Kuronaga
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
273
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 10:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
They aren't based on assumptions at all.
CCP has gone on record numerous times saying they don't have designs laid out for certain things, just ideas. |
Nalelmir Ahashion
Omegon 42nd Core
429
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 11:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
posting in stealth dust bunny alt thread.
"What's worse than a foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother? A foul-mouthed eight-year-old constantly claiming he's had relations with your mother who thinks he's a gangser, that's what."
--áAaron Birch |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
1802
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Posted - 2014.05.09 11:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
I also prefer to worry about internal paperwork and development processes of CCP instead of playing their game.
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
1477
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Posted - 2014.05.09 11:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kuronaga wrote:The lack of knowing where we are going is troubling to me. I feel like we're always traveling with a compass but never a map.
Any company that draws up a plan and never changes it is a company that is not very flexible and not responsive to its customers.
That CCP are so involved with and influenced by the community is a good thing (unless you live in highsec, then CCP are clearly just going to nerf you to hell under the influence of their nullsec cartel puppet masters, or so I read often).
They clearly do have a map, at least now, but remain open to the possibility that there are multiple paths to reaching the destination they are currently aiming for, which appears to be new regions of space and player control of everything in game.
While I don't personally know the exact detination CCP is aiming for, I'm a customer not an employee; and while I'm invested in this game for the long term, I am fairly happy that CCP seem to be on a more structured path than they were a few years ago.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
. -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
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Octoven
Phoenix Productions
Headshot Gaming
379
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Posted - 2014.05.09 11:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Any sane person knows that CCP doesnt make the game, we do, they just give us tools to do it. Anything they have designed or dreamed of doing for a purpose you can be sure the players will do the exact opposite. |
Kuronaga
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
273
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 11:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:posting in stealth dust bunny alt thread.
Been an eve player since 2005. |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
Advanced Amateurs
1288
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 12:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
And why would there be no design documentation? Because it isn't published in public? Errrrhhh... |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3311
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 12:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
A design document is the last stage in the development process, just before it goes into development. And even then it's a very fluid document that gets changed as process demands. With CCP doing agile development, there are probably more than one design document around at any time. It's the job of the design lead to keep everything coherent and to carry the vision of where the game is supposed to go. And even that can change as progress and technology demands. Game design is not industrial engineering. It's a lot more malleable than that and plays around with much more vague concepts like 'fun' and 'flow'.
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics |
TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
676
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 13:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:And why would there be no design documentation? Because it isn't published in public? Errrrhhh...
Well obviously, because the EVE player base is so entitled that everything CCP works on better be public knowledge, or we're gonna rage until there's no tommorow.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
Kristalll
Valkyrie Professional Resources
249
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Posted - 2014.05.09 13:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
My views on this matter, expecially WiS is best summarized by this quote.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
GÇ£Die tryingGÇ¥ is the proudest human thing. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Independent Faction
471
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Posted - 2014.05.09 13:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kristalll wrote:My views on this matter, expecially WiS is best summarized by this quote.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
'No campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy.' (Moltke) is I believe what you wanted to say. |
mkint
1216
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 13:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
While it appears CCP does have a clearer vision than they ever had, OP does have a point. Yes, CCP has a roadmap for when they'll get to "fix sov," but, well, what does CCP think "fix sov" actually means? Is CCP's conception of what's wrong with these systems on their road map so different from everyone else's to justify sticking around until any of that stuff actually happens? Because for anyone who stuck around just because they wanted wis/pi/dust/etc, that definitely wasn't justified. Both dust and wis literally had no published goals whatsoever to begin with, and for PI CCP just wasn't capable of turning it into something near as awesome as their hype.
Which is also why EVE players need to learn the important lessong: The CCP Presents panel at fanfest where they do their vision stuff is all marketing hype. They never talk about anything meaningful there, the whole point of it is to confuse people into keep paying subs for another year.
Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
DaReaper
Net 7
The Last Brigade
501
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 16:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kuronaga wrote:Kinda seems like they aren't. On a professional level isn't this a bit irresponsible?
The original vision for player owned deadspace areas with modular POS's didn't have one. The "vision" for this, as very few people remember, resulted in a kind of pvpve experience. This is all but forgotten now, and clearly it went nowhere because it was just an idea in someones head that nobody bothered to actually sit down and hammer out.
Actually, the modular pos redesign was scrapped because when they took a look at the pos code, they kinda went 'oh crap, if we change this it will break x,y,z. So we need to fix x, y, z. CCP has stated numerous times why they have not fixed pos'. People just don't listen.
Quote:
Incarna didn't have one. They STILL don't know what they want to do with the WiS component. This ultimately resulted in the inability to create a product anybody wanted.
Incarna had a vision, but for some reason ccp scrapped the engine they were making and decided to use a premade one. There vision for incarnia got changed. They rolled it out and had plans to add more to it, but due to the microtransactions and greed is good memo, the player base told ccp to **** off till they fix space ships. So that's what they did. In this case, it was the players that changed course.
Quote:
Dust/Legion didn't have one. They speak vaguely of things like PvE and sandbox areas yet have never been able to say anything concrete about how they are connected to big picture of new eden or how the gameplay works. The inability to clearly state what was wanted out of the game early on also resulted in several years of development time being wasted on hardware that couldn't go anywhere with it, as well as the procurement of an engine that can't do anything on a grand scale easily.
This one is simple to answer. Dust had a roadmap. But ccp was afraid that if dust was a total failure, and it was linked to eve in a meaningful way that it could kill eve. Which is understandable. They had thoughts on expanding dust. But they looked at the model last year, which was 'eve everwhere' and decided this was not what they should be doing. So now they are doing unified theory if you will. Eve universe on pc. Hence the start of legion. I also suspect, that there was limits to what the ps3 and even ps4 can do when compaired to what they wish to do with Dust/Legion. They were willing to work withen thouse limits because they figured it they get eve into more mediums, they would in turn get more money, but when they changed there vision, Dust no longer fit into it as is.
Quote:
Valkyrie clearly doesn't have one, as that was an experiment that just sorta happened and took off. It might be the only project that really justifies not having a design document as its success was kinda bred out of thin air.
Did you not see the keynote and the panels on valk? They actually have a vision for it, it had to go through a few changes, but they have an idea on how it will tie in and work in eve.
Quote:
I can't help but think that Seagull's vision for EVE, pretty as it may be, is probably also lacking in design. It might be incorrect to say that, but, given the track record it's not really unreasonable to assume so either.
The lack of knowing where we are going is troubling to me. I feel like we're always traveling with a compass but never a map.
Again you must of missed the keynote. They laided out the entire roadmap as to how they will get us to the player built star gates. They also explained why things like pos' and sov have not been touched yet.
You are not a big stakeholder of CCP. You are not an investor, stock holder, or employee. Thus your opinion as a customer, in the grand scheme of things, is 1/500,000 (based on accounts) and of that number you are less then 20% of what matters when ccp as a company makes a descision on future vision. The fact that ccp even shares any ideas with us, no matter how hair brained and undo able *cough* constalation and regional sov *cough* is awesome.
I would much rather ccp change vision and ideas when they make mistakes or realize that they can not do something, then plow on ahead into deeper failure. My biggest issue with ccp, in the 10 years I have been here, is the half assed stuff. Ideasa that come into game that are suppose to be v1 then are left for years to collect dust. Or ideas that just plan suck and take years to scrap, like again, constalation sov.
I personally think, the 2014 vision, of unified eve, is the clearest and easiest one that ccp has EVER come up with. I am quite happy with the roadmap, of fixing corp and alliances roles, then pos, then sov, then gates. If ccp pulls it off, and links Eve, Valk, Legion/Dust in a meaningful and unified way, that they will be able to kick the snot out of any other game that's coming into the field. Track record however says they will prolly change course next year. But we will see. This pah, the future of eve looks bright, I just hope they can pull it off. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
Council of Peace and Prosperity
4033
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 16:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
The answer is...
Yes?
"They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn
"I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á ***FREE THE JITA 1*** |
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
235
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
You're in the 3rd stage of grief, bargaining.
Your goal should be to achieve the 5th stage of grief, acceptance. Otherwise known as 'How I learned to stop worrying and love the CCP.' |
DaReaper
Net 7
The Last Brigade
501
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 16:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
mkint wrote:While it appears CCP does have a clearer vision than they ever had, OP does have a point. Yes, CCP has a roadmap for when they'll get to "fix sov," but, well, what does CCP think "fix sov" actually means? Is CCP's conception of what's wrong with these systems on their road map so different from everyone else's to justify sticking around until any of that stuff actually happens? Because for anyone who stuck around just because they wanted wis/pi/dust/etc, that definitely wasn't justified. Both dust and wis literally had no published goals whatsoever to begin with, and for PI CCP just wasn't capable of turning it into something near as awesome as their hype.
Which is also why EVE players need to learn the important lessong: The CCP Presents panel at fanfest where they do their vision stuff is all marketing hype. They never talk about anything meaningful there, the whole point of it is to confuse people into keep paying subs for another year.
Yes and no. Its basicly a 'this is what we want to do... not sure if we can do it... but.." it gets players excited so they keep paying. But nothing said there is set in stone until you see it in patch notes. So yea, a lot of hype, but a roadmap, even if its vaper, is better then nothing. |
Kuronaga
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
274
|
Posted - 2014.05.09 16:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
A roadmap is not the same thing as a design document. A roadmap simply says "We will do this, and then after that we will move onto this other unrelated thing."
A design document says "This is a very specific thing that we will do, it will work like this and we will accomplish it by doing this this and this so that it works like this." It is effectively the creative blueprint to a working gameplay system. All it leaves out are the technical hurdles for the programmers to overcome.
With Valkyrie, they are trying to piece something together, but they even admitted they have been throwing out concepts left and right because they just aren't very fun. They didn't know what they were doing going into this. They are developing that entire game by simply playing things by ear.
So yea, they may have an idea of where they are going, and they may be showing off those ideas, but that isn't the same as a full design document. Of course I don't expect them to share that with the public, I'm simply saying that they clearly don't have one before they start on these projects. If they have design documents at all, then they are most likely written on-the-spot, probably on some sort of bar napkin during the middle of a hard night of drinking. |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3037
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Posted - 2014.05.09 17:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:22. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
Thread closed.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department |
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