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Here is why apoc is better with autocannons than with mega pulses

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Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 00:47:00 - [1] i will bring the data from quickfit also i used max skills for everything except adv weapon gunnery is 4 Apocalypse with mega pulse t2 SHIP'S ATTRIBUTES : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Powergrid : 22938.0 / 25593.75 MW CPU : 615.5 / 625.0 tf Capacitor (regen) : 7875.0 Energy (519.9sec) Max Cap Regen : 37.11 per sec (approx.) Max Cap Needed : 94.184 per sec Velocity : 143.75 m/sec Signature : 400.0 m Target Range : 67500.0 m Scan Resolution : 114.0 mm ECCM Radar : 20.0 points Shield HP (regen) : 5217.45 (1830.0sec) Max Shield Regen : 7.13 per sec (approx.) Shield EM : 0.0 % Shield Explo : 60.0 % Shield Kinetic : 40.0 % Shield Thermal : 20.0 % Armor HP : 7500.0 Armor EM : 68.0 % Armor Explo : 68.0 % Armor Kinetic : 70.0 % Armor Thermal : 74.0 % Structure HP : 6641.25 Drone Capacity : 75.0 m3 Capacity : 0.0 Warp Max Distance : 530.8 AU Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Turret Slot / Launcher Slot <--- here i have an empty slot since im out cpu for another gun or nos Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Explosive Hardener I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Power Diagnostic System II <--- here i needed use it because nos wouldnt fit without it 5217 shield, 7.13/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/74/70/68 7560.0 cap, +35.63/s, -94.184/s <--- wow thats cool ;) 143.75 m/s Damage per second on Structure : 289.143 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) ------------------------------------------- Apocalypse with autocannons t2 SHIP'S ATTRIBUTES : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Powergrid : 19467.0 / 24375.0 MW CPU : 621.0 / 625.0 tf Capacitor (regen) : 7500.0 Energy (568.2sec) Max Cap Regen : 32.34 per sec (approx.) Max Cap Needed : 78.311 per sec Velocity : 143.75 m/sec Signature : 400.0 m Target Range : 67500.0 m Scan Resolution : 114.0 mm ECCM Radar : 20.0 points Shield HP (regen) : 4969.0 (2000.0sec) Max Shield Regen : 6.21 per sec (approx.) Shield EM : 0.0 % Shield Explo : 60.0 % Shield Kinetic : 40.0 % Shield Thermal : 20.0 % Armor HP : 7500.0 Armor EM : 68.0 % Armor Explo : 68.0 % Armor Kinetic : 70.0 % Armor Thermal : 74.0 % Structure HP : 6641.25 Drone Capacity : 75.0 m3 Capacity : 0.0 Warp Max Distance : 505.6 AU Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II [80xEMP L] Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I <--- wow now i won another nos ! Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Explosive Hardener I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II <---- nice i dont need put the pdu so i win dps here Large Armor Repairer II <--- check this now i can use 2 large t2 instead the top named now i do much better tank Large Armor Repairer II 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/74/70/68 7500.0 cap, +32.34/s, -78.311/s <-- wow now i use a lot less cap instead -94.184/s 143.75 m/s and well if i try use ammo T2 the difference is much much greater Damage per second on Structure : 278.644 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) i lose 10.5dps but i won a lot cap/tank also another nos
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.03 00:50:00 - [2] Edited by: Aeaus on 03/06/2006 00:54:36 What kind of ----ing proof is this if you're fitting the weakest Projectiles and Strongest Lasers while not fitting a full rack? ((3.6 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15) / (7.88 * .9 * .8)) * 48 * 6 = 288.95 ((3.6 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15) / (7.88 * .9 * .8)) * 44 * 6 = 226.875 My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 00:53:00 - [3] if you have less than Bs5 then the difference is much greater
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.03 00:57:00 - [4] Your setups suck more then a (censored). I mean, you could actually fit "Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers" which use less resources, less capacitor, don't force you to use nosferatus, etc, etc... ((2.4 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15) / (6.08 * .9 * .8)) * 48 * 8 = 332.9 And I'm sure you can make a better fit given some time, a PDU on an Apocalypse, DUR DUR DURRR My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 01:21:00 - [5] Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 01:21:32 Originally by: Aeaus Your setups suck more then a (censored). I mean, you could actually fit "Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers" which use less resources, less capacitor, don't force you to use nosferatus, etc, etc... ((2.4 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15) / (6.08 * .9 * .8)) * 48 * 8 = 332.9 And I'm sure you can make a better fit given some time, a PDU on an Apocalypse, DUR DUR DURRR thats great, yes we put 8 dual pulse laser (first i lose the ability to self defense vs hacs inty, also i lose the ability to counter another nos also attack enemy cap bs second, lets put data. you are saying dual pulse use less cap, ok lets look it with your 8 dual pulse Apocalypse with dual pulse t2 SHIP'S ATTRIBUTES : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Powergrid : 18202.0 / 24375.0 MW <-- a ton of pg now free CPU : 625.0 / 625.0 tf <-- no cpu Capacitor (regen) : 7500.0 Energy (426.15sec) Max Cap Regen : 43.12 per sec (approx.) Max Cap Needed : 96.358 per sec Velocity : 143.75 m/sec Signature : 400.0 m Target Range : 67500.0 m Scan Resolution : 114.0 mm ECCM Radar : 20.0 points Shield HP (regen) : 4969.0 (2000.0sec) Max Shield Regen : 6.21 per sec (approx.) Shield EM : 0.0 % Shield Explo : 60.0 % Shield Kinetic : 40.0 % Shield Thermal : 20.0 % Armor HP : 7500.0 Armor EM : 68.0 % Armor Explo : 71.2 % Armor Kinetic : 73.0 % Armor Thermal : 76.6 % Structure HP : 6641.25 Drone Capacity : 75.0 m3 Capacity : 0.0 Warp Max Distance : 505.6 AU Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Capacitor Power Relay II <-- more cap Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Large Armor Repairer II <-- we won the large t2 also hards t2 but the difference between resist is only at mas 2-3%, we could get t2 large repair and dont the hards to t1(and loss the resists) 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/76/73/71 7500.0 cap, +43.12/s, -96.358/s <--- thats nice now i regen 6 cap more/s but i waste 1/s cap more 143.75 m/s Damage per second on Structure : 333.169 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) yea we improved the dps but we are wasting more cap at this moment. Also we get less cap because we arent nosfing(boh less tank) , also we now cant counter the nos from another ship also we cant defend from a hac, inty etc also we cant hurt the cap of another bs because now we lost 2 nosferatu, thats sooooooo great! thanks you , "your" setups its so cool ;) i really would love some of your really setups if the mine are so worse ;) if we have to chose what do you want? 47dps or 16cap/s(with bs max5) plus 2 nosfe with 120cap every 12s, thats 10cap/sx2 36cap/s also nosfing ppl also i could use too 8 autocannons if i would but i think nosfe are much better. Also i did that because 8 mega pulse doesnt fit and i wanted compare equal number of turrets im not saying projectiles are wrong , oh my god no! im saying laser are wrong thats why
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.06.03 01:47:00 - [6] CPR 2's are not ingame... Poverty
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.03 01:49:00 - [7] Setups aren't that convincing. I suspect a better laser setup could have been done. Try dual heavies instead of fitting mods.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 01:50:00 - [8] Originally by: LWMaverick CPR 2's are not ingame... well its 4 am here cpr2 and cpr1 are one near other in quickfit
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 01:51:00 - [9] Originally by: Stamm Setups aren't that convincing. I suspect a better laser setup could have been done. Try dual heavies instead of fitting mods. please show me a better setup :)
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.03 01:51:00 - [10] Edited by: Aeaus on 03/06/2006 01:51:20 You are using a tool with no understanding of the game, it is only my opinion of course, but none of your setups are very useful. Like for example, if you downgrade to Dual heavy Pulse, even if you use six you suddenly don't need to have a PDS, oh let's replace that with a heat sink II =/ Oh look we lost 7% damage due to a gun switch and we won, 23% more damage from the Heat Sink. Gee, now we can also probably use two dual heavy nosferatus. My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Stamm Setups aren't that convincing. I suspect a better laser setup could have been done. Try dual heavies instead of fitting mods. please show me a better setup :) Too late at night to fire up quickfit change skills etc. But you will get higher DPS by dropping the fitting mod, going for a damage mod and switching to a mix of megas and dual heavies that fit.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:01:00 - [12] Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 02:01:38 Originally by: Aeaus Edited by: Aeaus on 03/06/2006 01:51:20 You are using a tool with no understanding of the game, it is only my opinion of course, but none of your setups are very useful. Like for example, if you downgrade to Dual heavy Pulse, even if you use six you suddenly don't need to have a PDS, oh let's replace that with a heat sink II =/ Oh look we lost 7% damage due to a gun switch and we won, 23% more damage from the Heat Sink. Gee, now we can also probably use two dual heavy nosferatus. you told me 8 guns and i fitted 8 guns, yes add the heat sink t2 and get 2 nosfe now with 6 dual guns and 2 nosfe Damage per second on Structure : 307.09 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) nice we have now 29dps more than my autocannon projectile but i still wasting 14cap/s more, without count you would be using 2 large top named armor and i would be using 2 t2 large which repair a lot more than top named. also you are trying show me i cant fit better pulse weapons on any amarr ships? since omen maller cant also punisher cant fit them apoc cant too? its so nice
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Stamm Setups aren't that convincing. I suspect a better laser setup could have been done. Try dual heavies instead of fitting mods. please show me a better setup :) Too late at night to fire up quickfit change skills etc. But you will get higher DPS by dropping the fitting mod, going for a damage mod and switching to a mix of megas and dual heavies that fit. nice lets to get different range weapons from mix fitting megas/duals. cool now i hit with some weapons and not with the others.. really who is doing the bad setup?
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:05:00 - [14] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Stamm Setups aren't that convincing. I suspect a better laser setup could have been done. Try dual heavies instead of fitting mods. please show me a better setup :) Too late at night to fire up quickfit change skills etc. But you will get higher DPS by dropping the fitting mod, going for a damage mod and switching to a mix of megas and dual heavies that fit. nice lets to get different range weapons from mix fitting megas/duals. cool now i hit with some weapons and not with the others.. really who is doing the bad setup? The optimals and falloffs are similar enough.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:09:00 - [15] Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 02:10:50 Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 02:09:53 Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Stamm Setups aren't that convincing. I suspect a better laser setup could have been done. Try dual heavies instead of fitting mods. please show me a better setup :) Too late at night to fire up quickfit change skills etc. But you will get higher DPS by dropping the fitting mod, going for a damage mod and switching to a mix of megas and dual heavies that fit. nice lets to get different range weapons from mix fitting megas/duals. cool now i hit with some weapons and not with the others.. really who is doing the bad setup? The optimals and falloffs are similar enough. can you tell me which others ships do that? im looking in fitting thread in forum and i cant find any ship doing that mix http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=333309
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:12:00 - [16] 1) use rcuII, with that you even might be able to fit a 2nd nos, atleast you can improve some other stuff 2) if you wanna make a point how better you can fit stuff with using ac's then use atleast the same tiers, namely 800's for ac's in this case 3) if you just want to compare working setups, well then i dont know how its for megapulses but an ac setup without ab or or mwd is just bad Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:14:00 - [17] I'd like to see you get your Apoc somewhat close into optimal quickly. Because otherwise... Dual Heavy Pulse = 26.25 km Optimal Dual 650mm = 24.5 km [100% Fall Off] Lasers are much more versitile on this slow ship. My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:23:00 - [18] i can use 800mm but.. its much worse for pulses ;) also 3km optimal+20km falloff well i think its enough to hit around 15km(pulses are giving that or even less with dual) and i can use t2 ammo ( i really dont care about speed if the other is using mdw he will catch me and if its a cruiser , frig, inty will out run me ) Apocalypse with 800mm t2 Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Explosive Hardener I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Large Armor Repairer II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I <-- i losted the t2 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/74/70/68 7500.0 cap, +32.34/s, -78.311/s <-- the cap 143.75 m/s Damage per second on Structure : 292.621 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) i won now a lot more dps than before and now its very near the damage from using dual pulse and i still using a lot less cap
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:25:00 - [19] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 03/06/2006 02:25:59 an ac setup without ab or mwd is still crap (mwd kinda necessary if its for pvp) Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Aeaus I'd like to see you get your Apoc somewhat close into optimal quickly. Because otherwise... Dual Heavy Pulse = 26.25 km Optimal Dual 650mm = 24.5 km [100% Fall Off] Lasers are much more versitile on this slow ship. Yep... the apoc is a horrible AC platform because it has NO speed to engage with guns that need speed. Another useless thread. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Aeaus I'd like to see you get your Apoc somewhat close into optimal quickly. Because otherwise... Dual Heavy Pulse = 26.25 km Optimal Dual 650mm = 24.5 km [100% Fall Off] Lasers are much more versitile on this slow ship. try those numbers with MF and EMP ammo, i though range reduction ohh mf get dual heavy pulse to 23.125km but lets watch autocannon.. damn they still have the 20km falloff bonus only lost the 4.5km in optimal (now its 2.25km)
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 03/06/2006 02:25:59 an ac setup without ab or mwd is still crap (mwd kinda necessary if its for pvp) i can fit it but i will lose the heavy cap for tank, thats really i think doesnt matter about fitting weapons
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Aeaus I'd like to see you get your Apoc somewhat close into optimal quickly. Because otherwise... Dual Heavy Pulse = 26.25 km Optimal Dual 650mm = 24.5 km [100% Fall Off] Lasers are much more versitile on this slow ship. Yep... the apoc is a horrible AC platform because it has NO speed to engage with guns that need speed. Another useless thread. you forgot EMP 50% range bonus doesnt affect nearly to the autocannon optimal but it hurt a lot in pulses , another useless flame reply from you
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 03/06/2006 02:25:59 an ac setup without ab or mwd is still crap (mwd kinda necessary if its for pvp) i can fit it but i will lose the heavy cap for tank, thats really i think doesnt matter about fitting weapons Yes, because combat isn't about feasible setups it's all about weapons... You know what, TACHs would have incredible damage, but they're not really worth comparing are they =/ My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Tiuwaz Edited by: Tiuwaz on 03/06/2006 02:25:59 an ac setup without ab or mwd is still crap (mwd kinda necessary if its for pvp) i can fit it but i will lose the heavy cap for tank, thats really i think doesnt matter about fitting weapons Yes, because combat isn't about feasible setups it's all about weapons... You know what, TACHs would have incredible damage, but they're not really worth comparing are they =/ we are speaking about short rang and second to even try fit taychs you need 2 rcu t2, that doesnt count right? i was speaking about cap booster over mdw because with 3km optimal + 20km falloff will give me around 15km-17km good damage also i would still hitting them even if they are at 20km(more than 20km = warp ), cap booster gives me tank, and time to use my uber cap also use my 2 nosferatus. i really dont need be in optimal to do uber 300dps, i would need it if i was doing 700dps with little tank
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Sniser i can use 800mm but.. its much worse for pulses ;) also 3km optimal+20km falloff well i think its enough to hit around 15km(pulses are giving that or even less with dual) and i can use t2 ammo ( i really dont care about speed if the other is using mdw he will catch me and if its a cruiser , frig, inty will out run me ) Apocalypse with 800mm t2 Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Eutectic I Capacitor Charge Array X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Explosive Hardener I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Gyrostabilizer II Large Armor Repairer II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I <-- i losted the t2 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=68/74/70/68 7500.0 cap, +32.34/s, -78.311/s <-- the cap 143.75 m/s Damage per second on Structure : 292.621 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) i won now a lot more dps than before and now its very near the damage from using dual pulse and i still using a lot less cap You might also add in the 50% larger clipsize going in for 800mms :) OP wins thread.... other guy needs to post actual setups and explain them instead of saying "this is better." Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
MrFu	Posted - 2006.06.03 03:22:00 - [27] Get a tempest,you noob :P
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 03:40:00 - [28] Originally by: MrFu Get a tempest,you noob :P lol later i will travel to north with my uber apocpest bs :P
Toille	Posted - 2006.06.03 04:06:00 - [29] High Slots (8 Slots) - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L Mid Slots (4 Slots) - Domination Stasis Webifier - Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner - Cap Recharger II - Cap Recharger II Low Slots (8 Slots) - Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer - Armor Hardener II - Armor Hardener II - Armor Hardener II - Dark Blood Heat Sink - Dark Blood Heat Sink - Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay - True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Semaj Valencia	Posted - 2006.06.03 04:22:00 - [30] You took out the warp scrambler and put in an afterburner? I thought this was a pvp comparison.
Malken	Posted - 2006.06.03 05:22:00 - [31] to get the Projectiles to do more dmg then a megapulse setup you need to use a whole rack and 1+ dmg mod. the main thing to me is that i can do comparable dmg and all dmg types and to have more cap to tank with since projectiles dont use cap nowadays. Quote: [05:17:46] Obiareus > freindlies dock or safespot [05:17:51] Obiareus > YOU CANNOT WIN
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.06.03 07:18:00 - [32] Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 03/06/2006 07:18:49 Originally by: Toille High Slots (8 Slots) - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L - Mega Pulse Laser II - w. Conflagration L Mid Slots (4 Slots) - Domination Stasis Webifier - Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner - Cap Recharger II - Cap Recharger II Low Slots (8 Slots) - Centus X-Type Large Armor Repairer - Armor Hardener II - Armor Hardener II - Armor Hardener II - Dark Blood Heat Sink - Dark Blood Heat Sink - Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay - True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay Good job.. you basically posted something completely worthless. Wheres the explanation on why you chose what, the concepts behind your decisions, etc, and where are the stats, DPS? DoT? Fitting skills, why you think its better than the OP's setup, etc. Also an analysis of your own experience flying it would be good - where it excells, what tactics might counter it, what annoying problems you tend to run into, etc. Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.03 08:57:00 - [33] There is no possible way that autocannons can outdamage pulses. It just can't be done. If it could, I'd eat my avatar and quit the ofrums right now. Testy's Eve Blog, Updated 01/06/06 Caldari Alt for sale!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.03 08:59:00 - [34] He also managed to use a Navy Apoc for his **** setup.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.03 09:15:00 - [35] Also, for what its worth: HIGH-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] > [2024 \| 30] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] MED-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~ > [ 1 \| 22] Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I > [ 1 \| 32] Faint Warp Prohibitor I > [1750 \| 40] Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I > [1375 \| 75] 100MN MicroWarpdrive II LOW-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~ > [2300 \| 55] Large Armor Repairer II > [2300 \| 55] Large Armor Repairer II > [ 2 \| 30] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II > [ 2 \| 30] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II > [ 2 \| 30] Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II > [ 1 \| 30] Gyrostabilizer II > [ 1 \| 0] Co-Processor II 800 PG and 42.5CPU left. DPS is about 350, according to Quickfit. I dont like it.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.06.03 09:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Elve Sorrow I dont like it. I'd be worried if you did, with it sucking so damn hard and all... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.03 09:21:00 - [37] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 03/06/2006 09:24:51 Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Elve Sorrow I dont like it. I'd be worried if you did, with it sucking so damn hard and all... Meh, there isn't a whole lot to work with. Cant fit EW in the mids, you need the CPU II, although that might be fixed by getting a 3% CPU implant. (28 CPU left if you drop the Gryo II and CPU II.) But that leaves you with a spare lowslot. The damage isn't exactly staggering either, and the large cap of the Apoc doesn't shine, because against any other closerange BS it would simply be a contest of who runs out of 800s earlier. You, likely, because this thing eats ammo. I'll stick with my Dual Nosf/Neut Apoc for now, thanks.
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.03 09:52:00 - [38] It is ok if you want to fit autocannons in your apoc. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Originally by: Jenny Spitfire EvE is ecstatically malevolent.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.06.03 09:55:00 - [39] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Meh, there isn't a whole lot to work with. Cant fit EW in the mids, you need the CPU II, although that might be fixed by getting a 3% CPU implant. (28 CPU left if you drop the Gryo II and CPU II.) But that leaves you with a spare lowslot. The damage isn't exactly staggering either, and the large cap of the Apoc doesn't shine, because against any other closerange BS it would simply be a contest of who runs out of 800s earlier. You, likely, because this thing eats ammo. I'll stick with my Dual Nosf/Neut Apoc for now, thanks. Yes, my point exactly. The "sucking" comment was directed at the whole idea of autos/howies/blasters/rails on the apoc in general... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Xendie	Posted - 2006.06.03 10:02:00 - [40] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 03/06/2006 09:24:51 Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Elve Sorrow I dont like it. I'd be worried if you did, with it sucking so damn hard and all... Meh, there isn't a whole lot to work with. Cant fit EW in the mids, you need the CPU II, although that might be fixed by getting a 3% CPU implant. (28 CPU left if you drop the Gryo II and CPU II.) But that leaves you with a spare lowslot. The damage isn't exactly staggering either, and the large cap of the Apoc doesn't shine, because against any other closerange BS it would simply be a contest of who runs out of 800s earlier. You, likely, because this thing eats ammo. I'll stick with my Dual Nosf/Neut Apoc for now, thanks. i think i saw somewhere that autocannons get the clip size increased by what? 50% -------- Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Vathar	Posted - 2006.06.03 10:06:00 - [41] Number crunching on forums is wonderful, but as it's been said, the reality of in game combat will be very different ^^ Apoc handles like a brick, and you definitely need an AB/MWD to get in range. (Webber drones can help here, but you lose inty defense) Actual dps of AC ships is always a bit lower since they mostly operate into fallof. now we have T2 ammo and that tends to be harder to take into account CBA to launch quickfit now, but you could probably take the dual 650 fitting, replace it with DHP II with minor changes and get a really decent pulse platform (about 10 CPU short however, so back to a large acco or something similar), AB would still miss, but not as much as with AC since you outrange ACs by a fair amount ^^ ____________ Space Shaman Don't take life seriously, you'll not survive it anyway
Tassi	Posted - 2006.06.03 10:28:00 - [42] Isn't it possible to fit a tripple large armor rep with AC's? Now THAT would make up for the loss of dps, throw in 1 injector or a 2nd one. That would make a hell of a tank. The problem is, how do you kill stuff with a tank?
Khory Thunderstar	Posted - 2006.06.03 12:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Tassi That would make a hell of a tank. The problem is, how do you kill stuff with a tank? Ram it!
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 12:44:00 - [44] Originally by: Malken to get the Projectiles to do more dmg then a megapulse setup you need to use a whole rack and 1+ dmg mod. the main thing to me is that i can do comparable dmg and all dmg types and to have more cap to tank with since projectiles dont use cap nowadays. projectiles can do all damage types and lasers dont. Well i really would use 3nosfe instead only 2, but for to do a nice compare i used 2. its true i need use a gyro to get the same dps but at this moment since i cant fit well megapulses with projectiles i can use the gyro and with megas i cant use a heat sink
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2006.06.03 12:54:00 - [45] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Aeaus I'd like to see you get your Apoc somewhat close into optimal quickly. Because otherwise... Dual Heavy Pulse = 26.25 km Optimal Dual 650mm = 24.5 km [100% Fall Off] Lasers are much more versitile on this slow ship. try those numbers with MF and EMP ammo, i though range reduction ohh mf get dual heavy pulse to 23.125km but lets watch autocannon.. damn they still have the 20km falloff bonus only lost the 4.5km in optimal (now its 2.25km) You do realise that operating at 100% falloff you only have 50% base accuracy right ? that 23k optimal is far superior to 2.25k optimal and 20k falloff ? . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 13:04:00 - [46] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Aeaus I'd like to see you get your Apoc somewhat close into optimal quickly. Because otherwise... Dual Heavy Pulse = 26.25 km Optimal Dual 650mm = 24.5 km [100% Fall Off] Lasers are much more versitile on this slow ship. try those numbers with MF and EMP ammo, i though range reduction ohh mf get dual heavy pulse to 23.125km but lets watch autocannon.. damn they still have the 20km falloff bonus only lost the 4.5km in optimal (now its 2.25km) You do realise that operating at 100% falloff you only have 50% base accuracy right ? that 23k optimal is far superior to 2.25k optimal and 20k falloff ? did you saw that 23k optimal will be cut by half when you use the MF and those falloff will not be cut by half? only their crapy optimal so they are equal
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2006.06.03 13:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 03/06/2006 13:32:30 Mega pulse I (MF) 100% base accuracy at 12.5km 75-80% base accuracy at 17.5km 50% base accuracy at 22.5km 800mm I (EMP) 100% base accuracy at 2.5km 75-80% base accuracy at 12.5km 50% base accuracy at 22.5km Mega pulse I (Gamma) 100% base accuracy at 15.625k 75-80% base accuracy at 20.625k 50% base accuracy at 25.625k 800mm I (Phased) 100% base accuracy at 3.125k 75-80% base accuracy at 13.125k 50% base accuracy at 23.125k mega pulse I (standard) 100% base accuracy at 25k 75-80% base accuracy at 30k 50% base accuracy at 35k Before you attempt to throw the last one out of the window completey, I feel the need to point out it still deals 75% of the damage of MF, with -45% cap use and a fully accurate range that autocannons can only manage at 50% accuracy using the longest range ammo. . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 13:47:00 - [48] please check the graphs here (the first not, the second graphs ;) Graphs autocannons vs pulses
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 13:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Edited by: Zyrla Bladestorm on 03/06/2006 13:32:30 Mega pulse I (MF) 100% base accuracy at 12.5km 75-80% base accuracy at 17.5km 50% base accuracy at 22.5km 800mm I (EMP) 100% base accuracy at 2.5km 75-80% base accuracy at 12.5km 50% base accuracy at 22.5km Mega pulse I (Gamma) 100% base accuracy at 15.625k 75-80% base accuracy at 20.625k 50% base accuracy at 25.625k 800mm I (Phased) 100% base accuracy at 3.125k 75-80% base accuracy at 13.125k 50% base accuracy at 23.125k mega pulse I (standard) 100% base accuracy at 25k 75-80% base accuracy at 30k 50% base accuracy at 35k Before you attempt to throw the last one out of the window completey, I feel the need to point out it still deals 75% of the damage of MF, with -45% cap use and a fully accurate range that autocannons can only manage at 50% accuracy using the longest range ammo. can you tell me why i want hit more than 20km? i just will warp or target will do
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.03 13:53:00 - [50] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 13:54:31 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 13:53:19 Do those graphs for shield tankers, i'm interested in seing if the lasers leap above AC's. Faction warp disruptors go to 28km...
Tehyarec	Posted - 2006.06.03 14:25:00 - [51] What does it matter if you use whatever on Apoc, if not counting RP reasons? Hell, it gives no bonuses for large lasers except the cap usage bonus, so you can fit whatever damage-wise. Fit projectiles and get insane cap for tanking, and so on. Nothing to argue about, use whatever you feel like
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 14:27:00 - [52] Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 14:29:38 Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 14:28:07 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 13:55:43 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 13:54:31 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 13:53:19 Do those graphs for shield tankers, i'm interested in seing if the lasers leap above AC's. Faction warp disruptors go to 28km... And remember if someone is comming AT you to get in there optimal you will hit them before they hit you, thats a increase in DPS right there. tell me where is suposed ships are balanced when you count the faction loot? yes vs shields laser will get a bit more dps but i can use emp to reduce that impact. Also im caldari(later i began to train amarr for insta dmg from turrets because there werent any caldari bs with turrets) but when i use my raven i fit it with armor tank and ecm in mids, even scorpion do that or moa, carcal cant do it but it sucks for close pvp combat 0<20km anyways :P nearly everyone is using armor tank because you need mids to use mdw/ab, scramble,web,ecm or heavy cap booster. this is why the most people in pvp use armor tank
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.03 14:32:00 - [53] Originally by: Elve Sorrow because against any other closerange BS it would simply be a contest of who runs out of 800s earlier. You, likely, because this thing eats ammo. Do you even know how much ammo you can fit in your hold? Thats a retorical question btw, I just had to ask
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.03 14:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Faction warp disruptors go to 28km... And? Are we using standard modules as examples or faction mods?
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:09:00 - [55] Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Elve Sorrow because against any other closerange BS it would simply be a contest of who runs out of 800s earlier. You, likely, because this thing eats ammo. Do you even know how much ammo you can fit in your hold? Thats a retorical question btw, I just had to ask I do, do you? With 16 Cap 800s, you have 35 m^3 left. Or 350 EMP. With the more usual 12 Cap 800s, you have 195 m^3 left. Or 1950 EMP. Thats just over 6 reloads. But, since you seem to advocate the advantage of doing multiple damage types, you want a bit different types. Likely some Barrage, and maybe a bit of Hail too. That means you can fit 2 reloads of each. That means you'll last about two fights. After that, the advantage of switching ammo is already void because you'll have run out of one type, if not more. You might be able to get away with 3 fights, because you obviously carry a full reload in your guns aswell. Rhetorical eh?
Lygos	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:13:00 - [56] It's not the dps that matters, but the optimals and speed. Anything will work if it's setup in the position it's designed to work. Unless it's a Raven.
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:14:00 - [57] Edited by: Godar Marak on 03/06/2006 15:14:59 Edited by: Godar Marak on 03/06/2006 15:14:39 Originally by: Elve Sorrow With 16 Cap 800s, you have 35 m^3 left. Ok then why didnt you say you were 'thinking' about fitting you poc with cap boosters? edit : also why fit a poc wih cap boosters when they are supposed to be the 'cap' ship in EVE? Sorry for the rolleyes, but you do see the point dont you?
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:20:00 - [58] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 03/06/2006 15:20:35 Originally by: Elve Sorrow [...]and the large cap of the Apoc doesn't shine, because against any other closerange BS it would simply be a contest of who runs out of 800s earlier. You, likely, because this thing eats ammo. Originally by: Elve Sorrow MED-SLOTS : ~~~~~~~~~~~ > [ 1 \| 22] Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I > [ 1 \| 32] Faint Warp Prohibitor I > [1750 \| 40] Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I > [1375 \| 75] 100MN MicroWarpdrive II I would think those two sortof gave it away. However, there a third and simple reason: You cannot sustain 2 Large Reps without using atleast 5 Cap mods. Or, in other words, 2 Cap Relays and 3 Cap IIs. That leaves you with a single midslot to fit a Webber, Scrambler and MWD/AB. You need the Cap Booster.
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:32:00 - [59] Fair enough, and thanks for being a gentleman about it.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:33:00 - [60] Sniser... The calculations seems to be talking the same langauge as you do, but the problems is that it dosent work for real. Falloff, optimal, dps, cap usage and so on.. Try it, seriously. Im glad that someone is trying to think outside the box for a change, but this time, its a "No go". /Mav Poverty
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:36:00 - [61] Originally by: Sniser tell me where is suposed ships are balanced when you count the faction loot? yes vs shields laser will get a bit more dps but i can use emp to reduce that impact. Also im caldari(later i began to train amarr for insta dmg from turrets because there werent any caldari bs with turrets) but when i use my raven i fit it with armor tank and ecm in mids, even scorpion do that or moa, carcal cant do it but it sucks for close pvp combat 0<20km anyways :P nearly everyone is using armor tank because you need mids to use mdw/ab, scramble,web,ecm or heavy cap booster. this is why the most people in pvp use armor tank This is where your arguement totally falls down. You produce numbers and graphs that support your view and make assumptions about anything else. When against shield tankers with a typical EM, Therm and invuln combo using your sig rad and traversal Lasers are more accurate after 11.5km and into the mid/high 20's. Peak damage is about equal with AC's a few percent high BUT at 13km the damage is equal between 800mm T2 and Mega T2's so thats 7km to your T1 Disruptor limit of 20km. So your arguement against shield tanking is that you armour tank your shield ships... congratulations for narrowing the parameters to again fit your view. From your comment it seems as though you want a boost to something or a nerf? Ship bonus or starting stats? Nerf the fitting of the turrets? Tempest fitting 6x 800mm t2 and 2x heavy nos has around 3000 PG left. Apocalypse fitting 8x Mega Pulse T2 has over 4000 PG left. If you use 2x NOS you have over 5000 PG left. So you want a good tank, the apoc has an extra low and 1000 to 2000 more PG to play with, thats a large armour rep or large cap booster to start with. If fitting a PDU or RCU the difference between the two increases. Apoc with PDU II can fit its 2nd armour rep, 1600mm plate(or a AB) and large cap booster plus the cap benifits it gives. A tempest requires a RCU II to fit a 2nd armour rep and cap booster but doesn't have any PG left for a AB or plate. So PG isn't an issue, the Apoc can fit a great tank + biggest guns while the tempest can't fit its largest guns and good tank. I have notaced CPU is a squeze on the apoc when fitting the biggest T2 guns, a large cap booster and 2x large armour reps. But wtf do you want? Huge damage, huge tank and huge cap? Fit a single rep and use that extra low for a CPU mod and fit your res/damage mods where other ships have to fit a RCU to fit there biggest guns. Sacrifice something like every other ship has to, you have the option of using the largest AC's or even Hybrids to make tanking easier, other races have no option but to use there races guns due to cap and fitting issues. Don't complain that you AC's are better when you want to fit a big tank, tempest users have no option but to use lower class of guns if we want a dual rep tank (650mm T2 requires AWU 5 to fit for dual rep and 800mm T2 requires a fitting mod with single rep tank). Basically there isn't a balance problem in my eyes.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 15:52:00 - [62] Originally by: LWMaverick Sniser... The calculations seems to be talking the same langauge as you do, but the problems is that it dosent work for real. Falloff, optimal, dps, cap usage and so on.. Try it, seriously. Im glad that someone is trying to think outside the box for a change, but this time, its a "No go". /Mav im sorry if i do a lot mistakes writing, Im trying write as best as i can
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.06.03 16:03:00 - [63] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: LWMaverick Sniser... The calculations seems to be talking the same langauge as you do, but the problems is that it dosent work for real. Falloff, optimal, dps, cap usage and so on.. Try it, seriously. Im glad that someone is trying to think outside the box for a change, but this time, its a "No go". /Mav im sorry if i do a lot mistakes writing, Im trying write as best as i can Poverty
TraxNet	Posted - 2006.06.03 16:24:00 - [64] Just get a mega for short engagements. They will blow up that apoc setup in 30s without more armor, just try it in the test server. And I would recomend you using Dual Heavys, you will get more dps because u can fit 1 more gun with them.
MrFu	Posted - 2006.06.03 16:37:00 - [65] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: MrFu Get a tempest,you noob :P lol later i will travel to north with my uber apocpest bs :P Bring it on
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.03 16:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It is ok if you want to fit autocannons in your apoc. qft
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 17:05:00 - [67] Originally by: TraxNet Just get a mega for short engagements. They will blow up that apoc setup in 30s without more armor, just try it in the test server. And I would recomend you using Dual Heavys, you will get more dps because u can fit 1 more gun with them. 30s? noob large repair are 12s cycle with 4 repair system skill :P also speaking about dual heavy you should read the entire thread ....
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.03 17:36:00 - [68] Edited by: Godar Marak on 03/06/2006 17:37:00 Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Jenny Spitfire It is ok if you want to fit autocannons in your apoc. qft This isnt the thread to forum *****, why dont you move to out of pod experience or general discussion? 'qft' isnt worth a post you semi-troll forum warrios ftl
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.03 17:44:00 - [69] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Aeaus I'd like to see you get your Apoc somewhat close into optimal quickly. Because otherwise... Dual Heavy Pulse = 26.25 km Optimal Dual 650mm = 24.5 km [100% Fall Off] Lasers are much more versitile on this slow ship. Yep... the apoc is a horrible AC platform because it has NO speed to engage with guns that need speed. Another useless thread. you forgot EMP 50% range bonus doesnt affect nearly to the autocannon optimal but it hurt a lot in pulses , another useless flame reply from you Do you even fly an APOC... or Do you even use Autocannos? Because they just don't mix very well. Believe me they didn't when there was no such thing as transversal and they don't now. The only Projectile worth a thought on an Apoc is 1400 IIs and that is only if you are in a fleet. ACs need speed. Period. You could put 220 IIs on a prophecy but it would still suck more than 220 IIs on a cyclone. Same thing applies to BSs. Your numbers betray you. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.03 17:48:00 - [70] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: MrFu Get a tempest,you noob :P lol later i will travel to north with my uber apocpest bs :P Feel free to come to Catch anytime and try that setup on me. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:04:00 - [71] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Feel free to come to Catch anytime and try that setup on me. Why would anyone go to catch?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:09:00 - [72] Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Kaylana Syi Feel free to come to Catch anytime and try that setup on me. Why would anyone go to catch? Come and find out? Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Rip Marley	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:22:00 - [73] I am no expert here by anymeans, but that autolypse might have potential as a mission runner. I have some buddies in apocs who do level 4 missions in angel space where my corp is. And they hate angels due to the those high EM and Thermal resist. The AC's lack of cap usage and ability to choose damage types might have a place for a mission runner.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:36:00 - [74] Originally by: Rip Marley I am no expert here by anymeans, but that autolypse might have potential as a mission runner. I have some buddies in apocs who do level 4 missions in angel space where my corp is. And they hate angels due to the those high EM and Thermal resist. The AC's lack of cap usage and ability to choose damage types might have a place for a mission runner. Ability to choose damage types? Clarify that statement abit please? I been using projectiles for a long, long time and have never carried more than one type of ammo in my cargo hold at a time. It's just not effecient because NPC fights can last a lot longer than PvP so you need conistancy. In pvp there is only 3 ammo types imo... EMP, Barrage and Hail. Putting Phased Plasma and Fusion in your cargo hold is rediculous for missions. At that point you should just do EMP L and be done with it. Missions are range games. You will waste more ammo in falloff getting 50% less damage at the same range Dual Heavy Pulses will be 100% optimal. You can use Cruise/Siege Launchers to make up for any missing 3rd damage type AND you can afford a cap injector if you are having cap problems on your tank since you don't need cargo space for ammo. Amarr are outstanding NPC hunters in 0.0. They are subpar mission runners and close range PvP boats. They make up for it with with their tanks, EM heavy damage that is rivaled only by a Mjolnir only Ravens and no ammo use. ACs only enhance one aspect of this... the tank... which tbh isn't worth destroying your damage potential and flexability. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Originally by: Sniser Originally by: MrFu Get a tempest,you noob :P lol later i will travel to north with my uber apocpest bs :P Feel free to come to Catch anytime and try that setup on me. lol he is a friend, this is why i told him that ;)
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:41:00 - [76] everyone knows the 75mm gatling railgun is the best turret for the apoc, noobs ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:48:00 - [77] That's funny, I had a fight with a laserphoon on the test server. I'll ask the guy to post a thread "Here is why typhoon is better with mega pulses than with autocannons" for a laugh . By the way, with the spreadsheet linked in my sig, you could save some hassle going through all these calculations. NB.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.03 18:51:00 - [78] Originally by: Sniser please check the graphs here (the first not, the second graphs ;) Graphs autocannons vs pulses Decided to use your graph numbers to have some more fun. Full rack of 800mm T2's with Fusion vs full rack of Mega T2's with MF. Used your graph numbers of: Sig: 380 (no ship has a sig of 380, geddon has 380 and mega 400) Traversal: 200 EM 79% Exp 58% Kin 61% Therm 66% With Amarr BS 4 (so not even getting the max reduction to cap use or size) Both setups have large cap booster, dual rep tank. Mega pulse setup gets 2 cap modules and 2 passive resists + DMG control with a PDU II for everything to fit (more cap to!) 800 AC setup gets instead of the cap modules a AB and CPU and 3 active hardeners with a 1600mm plate replacing the PDU. Its very similar to Elves btw. Both setups make me wince but since the OP hasn't stated what these setups are for besides "proving" AC's are better than lasers I have assummed he wants the biggest T2 guns and a sustainable dual rep tank. On to the DPS courtesy of quickfit using your traversal, sig and resists on a mega: Mega Pulse Damage per second on Shield : 349.35 (316.405 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Armor : 122.068 (112.574 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Structure : 420.676 (384.736 taking accuracy into account) Average DPS : 296.953 Time to down the shield : 14 sec Time to down the armor : 43 sec Time to down the structure : 14 sec Time to destroy the ship : 54 sec (01 min 00 sec taking accuracy into account) 800 AC Damage per second on Shield : 152.759 (126.816 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Armor : 146.796 (122.386 taking accuracy into account) Damage per second on Structure : 353.562 (294.6 taking accuracy into account) Average DPS : 212.095 Time to down the shield : 32 sec Time to down the armor : 36 sec Time to down the structure : 16 sec Time to destroy the ship : 01 min 16 sec (01 min 32 sec taking accuracy into account) So yes lasers take longer to down that specific resistance layout by 20dps I see a lot of active 3x hardener setups with no dmg control so EM could be lower i'm taking your word on what is "common" which you didn't take armour compensation into account but affects the lower resists more than the higher so it increases the difference between the EM/Therm and Exp/Kinetic helping the AC's in your arguement by a small percentage so not a problem. Now obviously this isn't taking into account enemy plates or rep. But quickfit also doesn't take into account the size and slowness even with AB (or MWD) of the ship. In future please use a introduction for what the topic is to do and what you are trying to show indetail rather than AC's are better than Lasers. When are they better? Against the specific stats you've put forward and general assumpsions. Show the stats after that instead of just throwing a load of numbers out and going "see i'm right!". A conclusion about WHY you think you are right would help to. So in conclusion. Against 2x EANM + named damage control a 8x 800mm T2 Apoc does 20dps more than a 8x Mega Laser T2 Apoc. Although according to quickfit it is 10dps with accuracy taken into account. It also says a Mega Laser Apoc will kill the ship quicker. Against a 3x Active Hardener tank the 800mm T2 Apoc has 30DPS LESS so it really depends on your targets setup which is what EVE should be about. Hence NO PROBLEM HERE, use AC's if you want but they arn't better than lasers, they are just better in certain situations so could be used as an alternative (against known minmatar heavy targets to avoid the extra 10% em armour resistance they have). Any more generalisations and stats you'd like me to use for these theoretical number games which isn't thinking about in game mechanics or player skill ?
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 19:29:00 - [79] Mila can you show me a setup with 8 mega pulses + tank for the apoc? tank includes 2 Large reps + 1 heavy cap of course if you cant your estimated doesnt matter since you used full 8 guns maths + tank the good of AC is they dont waste any cap and you can chose dmg types. The bad of mega pulses is they dont fit with heavy tank ^^ so you need dual heavy pulses remember apoc is a tanker
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 19:35:00 - [80] Originally by: Naughty Boy That's funny, I had a fight with a laserphoon on the test server. I'll ask the guy to post a thread "Here is why typhoon is better with mega pulses than with autocannons" for a laugh . By the way, with the spreadsheet linked in my sig, you could save some hassle going through all these calculations. NB. im going to use your spreadsheet well mega pulses do more but you cant fit them with a heavy tank, apoc is a heavy tank bs. there is no powergrid for megas + tank , even using 2 nosfe(they waste less pg than megapulses) also the 800AC t2 can get the gyro while you cant with apoc because there isnt enough cpu this is the basic problem if you check my fits you will see im using nosfe because there isnt enough pg/cpu for more turrets
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.03 20:07:00 - [81] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 20:13:52 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 20:09:13 Originally by: Sniser Mila can you show me a setup with 8 mega pulses + tank for the apoc? tank includes 2 Large reps + 1 heavy cap of course if you cant your estimated doesnt matter since you used full 8 guns maths + tank the good of AC is they dont waste any cap and you can chose dmg types. The bad of mega pulses is they dont fit with heavy tank ^^ so you need dual heavy pulses remember apoc is a tanker Why would I not be able to show you? Was simply a char limit on the post that I didn't. AHHHH We finally get it from you, the Apoc is a tanker, so your priority is tanking. Your then trying to get the best DPS with whatever is left over. The theoretical setup I used was Apocalypse Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Heavy Capacitor Booster I [4xCap Booster 800] Barton Reactor Capacitor Recharger I Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Power Diagnostic System II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Capacitor Power Relay I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Internal Force Field Array I 5217 shield, 7.13/s, E/T/K/Ex=11/29/46/64 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=79/66/61/58 7560.0 cap, +43.34/s, -102.074/s 143.75 m/s 297.0 DPS With AWU 5 you could use a 1600mm plate instead of the Dmg control, think it adds more effective HP than the resistances if you ignore the structure res. Note this readout is against the EANM resists. Can't run reps 100% of the time but when you have 7.5k armour HP and all resists over 50% I wouldn't imagine you would need to run them 100% of the time but I don't fly this ship. Note the difference between natural cap recharge and usage is 60cap/second but you have 7500 cap to eat through. For comparison a Tempest with a dual rep setup and using T2 650's has a similar difference between usage and recharge with about 20cap comming in natural recharge and 70ish going out which is 50cap lost for the cap booster to pick up. There is enough PG and CPU to swap a Heavy Nos in there to counter other ships NOS, of course you lose less than 1/8th of the damage (you have 5med drones hopefully). If enemy has no NOS the change in setup to NOS should hold cap at 50%, named instead of T1 items such as the warp disruptor and webber will help, and the better the cap recharger. With 7 guns and heavy nos Global Damage output Damage per second on Shield : 309.191 Damage per second on Armor : 110.495 Damage per second on Structure : 376.867 Average DPS : 265.008 You lose 1/10 damage for that NOS and makes the tank more sustainable. I like how AC's have no bad points according to you, lets see. less room for 800 charges and EATs ammo like nothing else. Less ammo choice since the more different types you carry (emp, fusion and T2) means the sooner your likely to run out of one kind. p.s. I like how you say the Apoc is a "tank" then give the 800mm setup a gyro, if its a tank fit more tanking and not a gyro.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.03 20:23:00 - [82] You're using a Barton Cap Recharger. Why? Use an MWD.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 20:23:00 - [83] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 20:13:52 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 20:09:13 Why would I not be able to show you? Was simply a char limit on the post that I didn't. AHHHH We finally get it from you, the Apoc is a tanker, so your priority is tanking. Your then trying to get the best DPS with whatever is left over. The theoretical setup I used was Apocalypse Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Heavy Capacitor Booster I [4xCap Booster 800] Barton Reactor Capacitor Recharger I Fleeting Warp Scrambler I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Power Diagnostic System II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Capacitor Power Relay I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Internal Force Field Array I 5217 shield, 7.13/s, E/T/K/Ex=11/29/46/64 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=79/66/61/58 7560.0 cap, +43.34/s, -102.074/s 143.75 m/s 297.0 DPS With AWU 5 you could use a 1600mm plate instead of the Dmg control, think it adds more effective HP than the resistances if you ignore the structure res. Note this readout is against the EANM resists. Can't run reps 100% of the time but when you have 7.5k armour HP and all resists over 50% I wouldn't imagine you would need to run them 100% of the time but I don't fly this ship. Note the difference between natural cap recharge and usage is 60cap/second but you have 7500 cap to eat through. For comparison a Tempest with a dual rep setup and using T2 650's has a similar difference between usage and recharge with about 20cap comming in natural recharge and 70ish going out which is 50cap lost for the cap booster to pick up. There is enough PG and CPU to swap a Heavy Nos in there to counter other ships NOS, of course you lose less than 1/8th of the damage (you have 5med drones hopefully). If enemy has no NOS the change in setup to NOS should hold cap at 50%, named instead of T1 items such as the warp disruptor and webber will help, and the better the cap recharger. With 7 guns and heavy nos Global Damage output Damage per second on Shield : 309.191 Damage per second on Armor : 110.495 Damage per second on Structure : 376.867 Average DPS : 265.008 You lose 1/10 damage for that NOS and makes the tank more sustainable. I like how AC's have no bad points according to you, lets see. less room for 800 charges and EATs ammo like nothing else. Less ammo choice since the more different types you carry (emp, fusion and T2) means the sooner your likely to run out of one kind. p.s. I like how you say the Apoc is a "tank" then give the 800mm setup a gyro, if its a tank fit more tanking and not a gyro. your resists E/T/K/Ex=79/66/61/58 my resist E/T/K/Ex=69/75/71/69 difference E/T/K/Ex=-10/+9/+10/+11 while im losing 10% em i win around +10% resist to the other resist. thanks to you i can show why apoc with AC is better, where you use the CPR to try maintain the turrets i can use a gyro and get more damage ^^ your massive waste from turrets will help to my 2 nosfe to bring you with 0 cap :) and i put a gyro because add another EANM or dmg control give very little resists (around 5 more)
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.03 20:45:00 - [84] Originally by: Elve Sorrow You're using a Barton Cap Recharger. Why? Use an MWD. Love the sarcasm, I used barton since I know its in game, use a Tech 2 if you can afford/have access to them. Originally by: Sniser your resists E/T/K/Ex=79/66/61/58 my resist E/T/K/Ex=69/75/71/69 difference E/T/K/Ex=-10/+9/+10/+11 while im losing 10% em i win around +10% resist to the other resist. thanks to you i can show why apoc with AC is better, where you use the CPR to try maintain the turrets i can use a gyro and get more damage ^^ your massive waste from turrets will help to my 2 nosfe to bring you with 0 cap :) and i put a gyro because add another EANM or dmg control give very little resists (around 5 more) Which 800mm setup is that? Since you didn't ask for the one I compared my mega pulse setup with. Congratulations, you've shown you can tank better but have less DPS by using a lower fitting weapon... I think we all could work that one out.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 20:59:00 - [85] Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 21:00:18 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Congratulations, you've shown you can tank better but have less DPS by using a lower fitting weapon... I think we all could work that one out. oh i didnt know 800mm were lower fitting weapon... /sarcasm on hey minmatar your weapons are lower than amarr weapons.. yay /sarcasm off i think you forgot i can use 8 turrets too Damage per second on Structure : 390.162 (0.0 taking accuracy into account) and i still wasting less cap than you and tanking more ^^ also if we put resist on the table i can choose them and i even will do more damage on you
Spartan239	Posted - 2006.06.03 21:02:00 - [86] Originally by: Meridius that projectile apoc thread is an abomination. sums it up very nicley Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.03 21:10:00 - [87] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Love the sarcasm, I used barton since I know its in game, use a Tech 2 if you can afford/have access to them. You're in an Apoc. A Closerange Apoc. Doing 136 m/s. Use a ******* MWD.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 21:17:00 - [88] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Mila Prestoc Love the sarcasm, I used barton since I know its in You're in an Apoc. A Closerange Apoc. Doing 136 m/s. Use a ******* MWD. great you want destroy the bonus apoc :) get skills for range change ammo for range
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2006.06.03 22:01:00 - [89] Apocalypse Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Mega Pulse Laser II [1xMultifrequency L] Turret Slot / Launcher Slot Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I [4xCap Booster 800] Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I 100MN Afterburner II Faint Warp Prohibitor I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 5962 shield, 8.77/s, E/T/K/Ex=0/20/40/60 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=77/63/57/54 7500.0 cap, +26.52/s, -109.879/s 365.53571428571433 m/s 361.6 DPS There "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.06.03 22:42:00 - [90] Originally by: Godar Marak HOLD ON STOP THE PRESS!!1 Did you just suggest one fit a mwd on an apoc? With pulses it might not be the brightest idea, but with AC it's pretty much mandatory. A tempest can get away with an ab t2 and some lucky BM's, but an apoc... probably not. NB.
Imperial Coercion	Posted - 2006.06.03 22:49:00 - [91] A tempest will align and warp much quicker than an apoc. Amarr needs love from the devs damnit!.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 22:50:00 - [92] Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 22:50:18 Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 22:24:39 Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 22:12:30 Apocalypse If you want your therm/kin/exp + EANII setup, just switch one of the MPs for a DHP, drop two EANIIs and one HS2 and put in n-types. However, I think you are going to find that with such low DPS, and so little armor, you will get pwned by any high-damage BS. Oh, and Elve is right, if you take an AC fitted apoc into pvp w/o at LEAST a 100mn AB II, you are going to be pretty worthless. your setup really sucks lol, different turrets type dont work, also 1 slot free in Hi also i can fit all turrets :P and i still having nice resist Apocalypse 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I [4xCap Booster 800] 100MN Afterburner II Faint Warp Prohibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I N-Type Explosive Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Thermic Hardener I Gyrostabilizer II Internal Force Field Array I 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=11/29/46/64 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=65/72/67/65 7200.0 cap, +25.46/s, -101.961/s 315.42857142857144 m/s its impossible fit another gyro but i have 1 gun more
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:09:00 - [93] Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Elve Sorrow Originally by: Mila Prestoc Love the sarcasm, I used barton since I know its in game, use a Tech 2 if you can afford/have access to them. You're in an Apoc. A Closerange Apoc. Doing 136 m/s. Use a ******* MWD. HOLD ON STOP THE PRESS!!1 Did you just suggest one fit a mwd on an apoc? HOLD ON STOP THE PRESS!!!111one!11one You suggesting one use ACs without a mwd? ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:10:00 - [94] I'm finding so much irony in that a new player with little understanding of the game and the access to a fitting program is flaming others for being "noobs." The simple thing is that the Apoc is a much better laser boat then it is a projectile boat, you gain lots of DPS for a little more capcitor use while remaining with a viable setup. An Apoc with autocannons needs a propulsion module or otherwise you operate at falloff, and your DPS starts falling even more. For once stop posting stupid quickfit printouts and just discuss setups, hardly any of your setups are viable in PvP. My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:12:00 - [95] Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 22:50:18 Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 22:24:39 Edited by: Letifer Deus on 03/06/2006 22:12:30 Apocalypse If you want your therm/kin/exp + EANII setup, just switch one of the MPs for a DHP, drop two EANIIs and one HS2 and put in n-types. However, I think you are going to find that with such low DPS, and so little armor, you will get pwned by any high-damage BS. Oh, and Elve is right, if you take an AC fitted apoc into pvp w/o at LEAST a 100mn AB II, you are going to be pretty worthless. your setup really sucks lol, different turrets type dont work, also 1 slot free in Hi also i can fit all turrets :P and i still having nice resist Apocalypse 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] 800mm Repeating Artillery II [40xEMP L] Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I [4xCap Booster 800] 100MN Afterburner II Faint Warp Prohibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I N-Type Explosive Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Thermic Hardener I Gyrostabilizer II Internal Force Field Array I 4969 shield, 6.21/s, E/T/K/Ex=11/29/46/64 7500 armor, E/T/K/Ex=65/72/67/65 7200.0 cap, +25.46/s, -101.961/s 315.42857142857144 m/s its impossible fit another gyro but i have 1 gun more Beautiful setup, instead of taking 30 seconds to die, it'll take 40 seconds. And wasn't EMP such a horrible damage type? So why the EMP.. use Phased Plasma so you'll do lots and lots of thermal damage, it rules... ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:16:00 - [96] Originally by: Aeaus I'm finding so much irony in that a new player with little understanding of the game and the access to a fitting program is flaming others for being "noobs." The simple thing is that the Apoc is a much better laser boat then it is a projectile boat, you gain lots of DPS for a little more capcitor use while remaining with a viable setup. An Apoc with autocannons needs a propulsion module or otherwise you operate at falloff, and your DPS starts falling even more. For once stop posting stupid quickfit printouts and just discuss setups, hardly any of your setups are viable in PvP. first im not a new player i have been playing since december 2005, this is my 7 month.i can still learning more things but im not a newbie or new player with 1 or 2 months second you are only a troll if dont bring us your "super" fits. you only come here and saying us "this is better" but without giving us any example. and.. my last fit have abt2 also the big loss dps of around 300dps inst so much ^^ this isnt a dps ship you will lose a lot more if you can change your ammo type and your target have 3 eanm or 2 eanm + dmg control txtxbyebye
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:21:00 - [97] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 22:50:18 Beautiful setup, instead of taking 30 seconds to die, it'll take 40 seconds. And wasn't EMP such a horrible damage type? So why the EMP.. use Phased Plasma so you'll do lots and lots of thermal damage, it rules... EMP is just to get one, if you want i can write 10 setups with each ammo type ^^ i could be using Fusion why ppl dont read the post? i was giving a similiar setup like Letifer's Deus setup. go back and read the entire thread thx
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:26:00 - [98] Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Aeaus I'm finding so much irony in that a new player with little understanding of the game and the access to a fitting program is flaming others for being "noobs." The simple thing is that the Apoc is a much better laser boat then it is a projectile boat, you gain lots of DPS for a little more capcitor use while remaining with a viable setup. An Apoc with autocannons needs a propulsion module or otherwise you operate at falloff, and your DPS starts falling even more. For once stop posting stupid quickfit printouts and just discuss setups, hardly any of your setups are viable in PvP. first im not a new player i have been playing since december 2005, this is my 7 month.i can still learning more things but im not a newbie or new player with 1 or 2 months second you are only a troll if dont bring us your "super" fits. you only come here and saying us "this is better" but without giving us any example. and.. my last fit have abt2 also the big loss dps of around 300dps inst so much ^^ this isnt a dps ship you will lose a lot more if you can change your ammo type and your target have 3 eanm or 2 eanm + dmg control txtxbyebye 300dps is a lot, a ab does nothing on a APOC and doesn't even remotely give enough speed to operate ACs, you'd know that if you had any experience with them. And your 7 months mean nothing in and by themselfs, what you're posting shows you have a lot to learn. And there's a host of 3 year old vets telling you that you're wrong. And explaining why. This isn't a how do I setup my apoc thread so I really don't feel inclined to start spraying around apoc fittings. I really can't make sense of why changing damage type against a EANM hardened battleship would make you lose damage since against those type of tanks you dont want EM, but you want something with higher explosive damage ideally. Last but certainly not least, if you think the loss of 300 dps isn't a big deal. You really have a LOt to learn yet. Due to the nature of tanking ( which cuts a big portion off the damage that does get through resists, a aditional 300 dps is something that decides who breaks through first, since your first 200+ dps is wasted on the tank of the enemy ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:28:00 - [99] Edited by: Gariuys on 03/06/2006 23:32:13 Originally by: Sniser Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 22:50:18 Beautiful setup, instead of taking 30 seconds to die, it'll take 40 seconds. And wasn't EMP such a horrible damage type? So why the EMP.. use Phased Plasma so you'll do lots and lots of thermal damage, it rules... EMP is just to get one, if you want i can write 10 setups with each ammo type ^^ i could be using Fusion why ppl dont read the post? i was giving a similiar setup like Letifer's Deus setup. go back and read the entire thread thx You're giving raw dps figures for EMP, but saying you'd use something else as ammo, which cuts into your raw dps considerably, showing a completely different figure. Now which is it? The high raw dps but oh so weak EM damage dealing ammo, or the lower DPS, but in your eyes oh so great damage types of thermal? Keeping in mind ofcourse that against a EANM tank no matter how many you fit or what your resist will be, raw explosive will be over twice as effective as em if the explosive hole isn't plugged. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:34:00 - [100] Originally by: Gariuys 300dps is a lot, a ab does nothing on a APOC and doesn't even remotely give enough speed to operate ACs, you'd know that if you had any experience with them. And your 7 months mean nothing in and by themselfs, what you're posting shows you have a lot to learn. And there's a host of 3 year old vets telling you that you're wrong. And explaining why. This isn't a how do I setup my apoc thread so I really don't feel inclined to start spraying around apoc fittings. I really can't make sense of why changing damage type against a EANM hardened battleship would make you lose damage since against those type of tanks you dont want EM, but you want something with higher explosive damage ideally. Last but certainly not least, if you think the loss of 300 dps isn't a big deal. You really have a LOt to learn yet. Due to the nature of tanking ( which cuts a big portion off the damage that does get through resists, a aditional 300 dps is something that decides who breaks through first, since your first 200+ dps is wasted on the tank of the enemy ) i think you missread me. i have 300dps max, not im losing 300dps. if you check graphs here graphs you can see the difference between 10km and 15km are 10%less accurancy, that is 10% less dmg , so 300x0.1= you loss 30dps, thats not much
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:43:00 - [101] Originally by: Sniser Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 23:38:09 Edited by: Sniser on 03/06/2006 23:35:04 Originally by: Gariuys 300dps is a lot, a ab does nothing on a APOC and doesn't even remotely give enough speed to operate ACs, you'd know that if you had any experience with them. And your 7 months mean nothing in and by themselfs, what you're posting shows you have a lot to learn. And there's a host of 3 year old vets telling you that you're wrong. And explaining why. This isn't a how do I setup my apoc thread so I really don't feel inclined to start spraying around apoc fittings. I really can't make sense of why changing damage type against a EANM hardened battleship would make you lose damage since against those type of tanks you dont want EM, but you want something with higher explosive damage ideally. Last but certainly not least, if you think the loss of 300 dps isn't a big deal. You really have a LOt to learn yet. Due to the nature of tanking ( which cuts a big portion off the damage that does get through resists, a aditional 300 dps is something that decides who breaks through first, since your first 200+ dps is wasted on the tank of the enemy ) i think you missread me. i have 300dps max, not im losing 300dps. if you check graphs here graphs you can see the difference between 10km and 15km are 10%less accurancy, that is 10% less dmg , so 300x0.1= you loss 30dps, thats not much also you could see it matters use EMP or FUSION vs EANM targets, and a lot EDIT: i corrected the other post, yes i wrote it bad sorry I didn't misread, you missaid, but okay, 300dps from a shortrange boat? LOL but anyway. How does the 10km 15km thing factor into all this? I didn't say anything regarding range afaik. Anything other then EMP has more range, so you gain from accuracy in that regard. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:45:00 - [102] Forgot and didn't feel like editing. I fly a short range boat too, it outputs somewhere in the +1300 raw dps that's why I was loling at 300dps from a short range boat. It's absolute garbage, couldn't kill a cruiser with it. Let alone catch a cruiser with that ab but think I made that clear already. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.03 23:55:00 - [103] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 04/06/2006 00:02:09 Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/06/2006 23:56:44 Originally by: Aeaus hardly any of your setups are viable in PvP. That is the main point that keeps comming up but I have yet to seen Sniser or anyone discuss the issues raised. Originally by: Sniser also the big loss dps of around 300dps inst so much ^^ this isnt a dps ship you will lose a lot more if you can change your ammo type and your target have 3 eanm or 2 eanm + dmg control txtxbyebye FFS NOT EVERYONE USES 2 EANM + DMG CONTROL! Stop saying they do, in one of your posts you even used a 3x active hardener setup. When the effect of ECM and NOS is reduced (however long that might take) less people will armour tank Ravens or use NOS/ECM domi's making lasers hugely better than AC's since the best shield ammo AC's have is EMP which does 40% EM damage with the rest mostly Explosive with a bit of Kinetic. Not to mention T2 ammo. Your assumption is that everyone armour tanks which makes Lasers weaker and is the basis of your arguement. Does anyone else feel that trend is the same? Also the DPS of AC's IS NOT 300 on a Apoc even with a Gyro. It will take you 80 seconds at 300m/s to get into optimal range from when you can start shooting at optimal+falloff assuming the target isn't moving at you. With lasers you could of got your max DPS from the start which really adds up. As you keep pointing out that Damage control being common what about when you've broken the armour tank? You then have 5000+ of 50%+ resists to eat through, so its not so clear cut as you make it. I will again point out this with the megalaser setup I posted (not a great setup I know): Apoc has 2000+ more cap to start with over a tempest. The Apocs natural recharge is about 40 with loss just over 90. A difference of 50. The Tempest natural recharge is about 20 with loss just over 75. A difference of 55. I have not included AB useage in this, if a MWD was fitted the difference would be even greater with recharge being affected to. Yes the tempest could fit 2x NOS to give a max of 20cap/sec using best named. What if it gets jammed? The apoc setup is more sustainable while jammed. Yes I used two cap modules to get that result but the Tempest to fit its mid tier guns, AB, dual rep and cap booster needed a RCUII where the apoc fitted a PDU II. Apoc also has more armour HP and a extra low slot so you are right to say it is meant to tank but its up to you if you want to increase that tanking advantage or use that advantage to not need a plate or as high resists so you can fit cap modules and/or heat sinks. Please stop saying ACs > Laser on a Apoc. In certain situations they maybe better but then its like that for every setup on every ship, there maybe a better setup for that ship in a situation. ps. don't trust quickfits damage calculations, i've never got them as high as people say on the forums but it is useful for comparisons. pps. your showing a clear lack of knowledge in this sentence "this is not a DPS ship". Without DPS you can't kill another ship. If you don't have DPS you can't break its tank, the less you make them rep the less they need to cap boost the longer they can last pounding you till your ACs use all its ammo or you run out of cap boosters. Balance is the key.
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:00:00 - [104] Edited by: Gariuys on 04/06/2006 00:02:04 2 good points there. Quickfit being buggy ( never got good results from it, I trusth my calculator and fitting screen a lot more ) and if you can't use those wtf are you doing discussing anything... And it's a discussion about PvP I assume ( since for pve the whole thing is completely irrelevant no ammo usage make lasers the most obvious choice for that ) and the setups being compaired are horrible if not flat out useless for PvP. This includes the whole range thing, moving at 150 m/s with a short range setup means your tanking mods would have been put to better use fitting wcs cause you'll be dead when you get in range. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:07:00 - [105] Mila Prestoc i say 2 eanm+ dmg control because its the usual setup for light tank, if you want use heavy thank then yes you need 3hards+eanm. im not saying AC are better im winning about a lot amarr ships cant fit their big brother guns and the others ships can. And please dont tell me about neutrons or 800mm, because they are like taychons for sniping ion blaster = mega pulses = 650mm 425mm = mega beam = 1400mm
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:10:00 - [106] Edited by: Gariuys on 04/06/2006 00:11:39 Originally by: Sniser Mila Prestoc i say 2 eanm+ dmg control because its the usual setup for light tank, if you want use heavy thank then yes you need 3hards+eanm. im not saying AC are better im winning about a lot amarr ships cant fit their big brother guns and the others ships can. And please dont tell me about neutrons or 800mm, because they are like taychons for sniping ion blaster = mega pulses = 650mm 425mm = mega beam = 1400mm ROFLMAO, then compaire those, 650 vs mega pulse... Neutrons and 800s are like Tachyons. Now I've truly heard it all. And a 3 slot for resist is a light tank? Oh and for your information, fitting ions/mwd/singe rep/plate/nos on a megathron still mean that you need a co-pro so fitting a RCU on a apoc isn't exactly criminal you know. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:12:00 - [107] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 04/06/2006 00:12:51 Originally by: Sniser ion blaster = mega pulses = 650mm 425mm = mega beam = 1400mm It doesn't work like this. The characteristics of those weapons are so different it's pointless to compare them in a one-dimension scale. Tiers of guns do not strictly compare to each other, i can post as many examples as you want. I'm not saying that fittings of "big lasers" are fine. NB.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:14:00 - [108] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Sniser ion blaster = mega pulses = 650mm 425mm = mega beam = 1400mm That doesn't work like that. The characteristics of those weapons are so different it's pointless to compare them in a one-dimension scale. I'm not saying that fittings of "big lasers" are fine. NB. neutron , 800mm AC, taychons they are the same because you cant fit good tank+mdw+cap booster without use a rcu t2 :) taychon hurt even more because its a sniping weapon and they already use more pg/cpu
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:17:00 - [109] Originally by: Sniser neutron , 800mm AC, taychons they are the same because you cant fit good tank+mdw+cap booster without use a rcu t2 :) taychon hurt even more because its a sniping weapon and they already use more pg/cpu According to your definition, megapulse are in the same boat. Large and medium close range lasers are just missing a "gatling" version then... NB.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:22:00 - [110] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Sniser neutron , 800mm AC, taychons they are the same because you cant fit good tank+mdw+cap booster without use a rcu t2 :) taychon hurt even more because its a sniping weapon and they already use more pg/cpu According to your definition, megapulse are in the same boat. Large and medium close range lasers are just missing a "gatling" version then... NB. or maybe gatling are the dual with another name ;) at medium ranges only exist focused and heavy. omen and maller can only fit focused too
Bottled Brain	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:25:00 - [111] Originally by: Sniser ... if you check graphs here graphs you can see the difference between 10km and 15km are 10%less accurancy, that is 10% less dmg , so 300x0.1= you loss 30dps, thats not much I don¦t want to stalk you, but it¦s more than 10% that¦s why I asked you to do the math in the other thread. The 10% accuracy displayed become 20-30% reduced damage if you compare the dps. Under optimal conditions your target is webified and the transversal is lower than 200m/s (the 60m/s are two webified bs). So your damage at 15km and 200m/s transversal is maybe 11 but is 14.5 at 5km and 60m/s, but your accuracy graph shows 10% less accuracy.
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:27:00 - [112] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 04/06/2006 00:32:23 Originally by: Sniser Mila Prestoc i say 2 eanm+ dmg control because its the usual setup for light tank, if you want use heavy thank then yes you need 3hards+eanm. im not saying AC are better im winning about a lot amarr ships cant fit their big brother guns and the others ships can. And please dont tell me about neutrons or 800mm, because they are like taychons for sniping ion blaster = mega pulses = 650mm 425mm = mega beam = 1400mm Mila giggles Its whining btw cos obviously your not winning with your setups or you wouldn't be here whining. Oh we get to the point of the thread finally, you want a sustainable dual rep tank and the largest lasers and don't want to hear that a Tempest or Mega can't fit 800's or neutrons with a strong tank LMAO. I also now see why you used 650mm's in your opening post, would of been nice if you explained your choice and point of the thread then. The difference in DPS of 650mm's and Mega's will be greater than 800mm's and mega lasers but you get even more PG saved to do absolutly nothing with. I think what you really want is a mid tier gun to fit between duals and mega lasers even though you have the PG+CPU to fit the largest lasers and dual rep tank. I've spent enough time on this topic now, time to move on. I'll agree to disagree with you, the numbers I see and experience lead me to a different conclusion from you.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:36:00 - [113] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Sniser And please dont tell me about neutrons or 800mm, because they are like taychons for sniping ion blaster = mega pulses = 650mm 425mm = mega beam = 1400mm Oh we get to the point of the thread finally, you want a sustainable dual rep tank and the largest lasers and don't want to hear that a Tempest or Mega can't fit 800's or neutrons with a strong tank LMAO. i was saying neutron and 800 are like taychons, we cant fit taychons without use rcu t2, so you shouldnt be able to fit them without a rcu t2 too you can fit 425mm and 1400mm without use rcu t2 and they are sniping weapons so they use more pg than short, that is why i was telling about mega pulses should fit
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.06.04 00:52:00 - [114] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 04/06/2006 00:53:22 Originally by: Sniser i was saying neutron and 800 are like taychons, we cant fit taychons without use rcu t2, so you shouldnt be able to fit them without a rcu t2 too you can fit 425mm and 1400mm without use rcu t2 and they are sniping weapons so they use more pg than short, that is why i was telling about mega pulses should fit Now your losing me, how did long range weapons come into a super tank topic about how AC's are better than lasers? It take AWU 5 to fit a full rack T2 1400mm arty to a tempest, leaving 70PG and 2 high slots yet to be fitted. The fact that the Tempest only fits 6x 1400mm T2's and not 8x doesn't factor into your comparison? or that 6x 1400mm T2 arty has less DPS than 8x Tachy's? or that 1400mm have soooo bad tracking and less optimal range which is what you need for sniping. Long range weapons have nothing to do with it, i'm not even going to get involved in that, thats a completely different topic.
Sniser	Posted - 2006.06.04 01:07:00 - [115] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 04/06/2006 00:53:22 Originally by: Sniser i was saying neutron and 800 are like taychons, we cant fit taychons without use rcu t2, so you shouldnt be able to fit them without a rcu t2 too you can fit 425mm and 1400mm without use rcu t2 and they are sniping weapons so they use more pg than short, that is why i was telling about mega pulses should fit Now your losing me, how did long range weapons come into a super tank topic about how AC's are better than lasers? It take AWU 5 to fit a full rack T2 1400mm arty to a tempest, leaving 70PG and 2 high slots yet to be fitted. The fact that the Tempest only fits 6x 1400mm T2's and not 8x doesn't factor into your comparison? or that 6x 1400mm T2 arty has less DPS than 8x Tachy's? or that 1400mm have soooo bad tracking and less optimal range which is what you need for sniping. Long range weapons have nothing to do with it, i'm not even going to get involved in that, thats a completely different topic. maybe they are only 6 turrets but you have 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret firing speed and Large Projectile Turret damage per level. anyways the compare was only to see the fits. sniping weapons use more pg/cpu that is why taychon use 2 rcu t2 and neutron , 800mm only 1 rcu to be able to fit "some" tank
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.04 01:10:00 - [116] Hardly anybody fits the high tier though, as you sacrifice a lot for it, you see sniping battleships often, and occationally pure gank ships, but most ships out there use medium tier and are well-rounded. My Guides (Recomended Reading)
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.04 01:20:00 - [117] To all you whining about the MWD on Apoc suggestion. How exactly do you intend to kill anything if you can't get within scrambling range? Pray you land there, and if you don't, ask the other guy to hold and let you approach him at a whooping 136m/s? If this is some sort of closerange gang ship, lose the ACs, fit Mega Pulse IIs with Scorch , own anything from 10-50km and be done with it.
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.06.04 01:24:00 - [118] Sorry for the double post, As you can clearly see the Apoc with 8 800MM Repeating Artillery (choosen to it's close tier and resource relation to the Mega Pulse Lasers) is outdamaged by the Mega Pulse Laser Apocalypse quite easily. It's only better then a megapulse laser below 10Km. You will require to use a good propulsion modification on the Apocalypse, thus already killing some of your capacitor advantage, it's a flying loaf of bread so you'll probably need a MWD further nullifying capacitor. My Guides (Recomended Reading)
keepiru	Posted - 2006.06.04 01:25:00 - [119] i cant believe youve all managed to drag this this thread on for almost 4 pages with what amounts to, when all is said an done, total and utter dross. i salute you. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.06.04 09:28:00 - [120] Originally by: keepiru i cant believe youve all managed to drag this this thread on for almost 4 pages with what amounts to, when all is said an done, total and utter dross. i salute you. I've started to enjoy it. unfortunately he doesn't respond to most of my questions, but still he's respondend a couple of times and I'm ROFL every single time. It's beautiful. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.04 10:49:00 - [121] Originally by: keepiru i cant believe I managed to drag this this thread on for almost 4 pages with what amounts to, when all I say, is total and utter dross. Corrected.
Spartan239	Posted - 2006.06.04 11:08:00 - [122] Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: keepiru i cant believe I managed to drag this this thread on for almost 4 pages with what amounts to, when all I say, is total and utter dross. Corrected. You realy are totaly clueless if you think what hes saying is dross Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.04 12:04:00 - [123] Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: keepiru i cant believe I managed to drag this this thread on for almost 4 pages with what amounts to, when all I say, is total and utter dross. Corrected. You realy are totaly clueless if you think what hes saying is dross You--------------------------------------------->the point
Spartan239	Posted - 2006.06.04 12:06:00 - [124] Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Spartan239 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: keepiru i cant believe I managed to drag this this thread on for almost 4 pages with what amounts to, when all I say, is total and utter dross. Corrected. You realy are totaly clueless if you think what hes saying is dross You--------------------------------------------->the point Your funny Originally by: Tamora its not the skills that make the eve player... its the smack that back him up

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