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Fonts again (again)

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Xenius Debyl's Raiders	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:18:00 - [121] Please, please, please fix the font. At least make it selectable. Of all the requests on these boards, is this one REALLY that hard? If you aren't going to give us a font that doesn't hurt my eyes, please dont bust me when I alter the game files so that I can. --Xenius
Rover Vitesse Gallente Crisis Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:58:00 - [122] Originally by: Mephysto I am talking to the decision makers about the font replacement. In order to try and convince them I need the following from you the players: A Bug Report with attached screenshots (zipped, zip file size under 2mb) that clearly display the current font in your monitors native resolution, the current font in a non-native res and a clear description of the monitor type you use, your typical resolution, the what the native resolution is. Please note, this is by no means a guarantee that font replacement will become available. Reported with screenshots. I do understand that some people like the Eve Font, but please take into account that it does give some people headaches and eyestrain. If possible a choice would be really nice. Verdana is great, and was designed specifically for ease of reading, and not "prettyness". Rovers Chronicles
Smagd Encina Technologies Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.08.24 22:31:00 - [123] Originally by: Scorpyn Some of the fonts are a bit too similar. Examples: Uppercase I and lowercase L Uppercase O and 0 (zero) (identical :/) Uppercase S and 5 (five) Uppercase G and 6 (six) At least fix those plz I've still not figured what exactly the last 4 letters of the system N-DQ0D really are. Or was it N-DOOD? Or N-DQD0? And R&D-Agents look a lot like R60. I'm using R+D now. Please, give us some choices. -- When I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Thukkers do
Betonela Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.08.24 22:41:00 - [124] CCP put several fots soo ppl can chose
Celiss	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:08:00 - [125] Edited by: Celiss on 24/08/2006 23:12:31 Originally by: Mephysto I am talking to the decision makers about the font replacement. In order to try and convince them I need the following from you the players: A Bug Report with attached screenshots (zipped, zip file size under 2mb) that clearly display the current font in your monitors native resolution, the current font in a non-native res and a clear description of the monitor type you use, your typical resolution, the what the native resolution is. Mephysto, Thanks for looking into this issue. It is critical for a lot of us to be able to play the game. I spend 8-12 hours a day reading screens and don't have any problems typically, but the EVE font makes my eyes tired within minutes. I also just plain read a lot slower. Even at larger font sizes, due to the shape of the font (boxiness, chars all looking similar) it's straining to read. But to the point of my post... I tried taking screenshots at a non-native res, but they always come out looking exactly the same as my native LCD res, but cropped to the smaller res. i.e. not scaled like it actually looks on the display. I tried using both display adapter scaling and monitor scaling, either way it turns out the same. So unless you want us to take a picture with a digital camera (which I'm happy to do), there's no new info in the non-native res screenshot. Also, when I say, being able to change the font to Verdana is literally what made the difference between me subscribing or not, here's a post I made during my 14 day trial
Spaja Saist Gallente Isotope Industries	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:25:00 - [126] Originally by: Mephysto I am talking to the decision makers about the font replacement. In order to try and convince them I need the following from you the players: A Bug Report with attached screenshots (zipped, zip file size under 2mb) that clearly display the current font in your monitors native resolution, the current font in a non-native res and a clear description of the monitor type you use, your typical resolution, the what the native resolution is. Please note, this is by no means a guarantee that font replacement will become available. What half of eve ***ing about your ty ***** font is not good enough. The arrogance of the Devs's is appalling. People have been complaining since you changed the fonts to unicode. Why should we have to do the work for the lazy devs.
Misses Gap	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:31:00 - [127] Absolutely signed Please either give us back the well balanced font we had before or allow us to choose from a big numer of fonts or system fonts installed on our OS Pretty please
Iyanah Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:33:00 - [128] The fonts are fine as far as i can see. even at max resolution, they don't cause me any trouble. i reccomend you lower your resolution slightly if they are appearing too small. i run on max res (when not running in a window) and everything is fine on my monitor. also, to reduce eye strain, ensure you're using a TFT monitor. ========================================== Iy
Varheg Xan Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:35:00 - [129] I like the new font, I think it's an improvement over the previous one (RMR). I don't think it's perfect but it doesn't bother me.
Darviaari	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:41:00 - [130] Originally by: Mephysto I am talking to the decision makers about the font replacement. In order to try and convince them I need the following from you the players: ... Good to hear at least that. But do you really need the screenshots? Just take some common monitor (21'), set same usable resolution (it mean that the overview window will not be over half of the screen) and try to read few longer mission breefings or any other longer text. The font are only reason, why ppl can not use bigger resolution. I will gladly use 1600*1200 - the overwieev windows is nice small. The icons of items are also small, so the cargo bay is not over all the screen. But in this resolution it is imposible to read anything. So in my opinion - the problem is not in the font - but in the size of the font in the windows with lots of text. Leave the small text in overview. It is OK. But in the mission breafing, chat, market,... - let me set bigger font, plase.

Celiss	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:55:00 - [131] Edited by: Celiss on 24/08/2006 23:58:35 The problem is the font. It's a bad font. Not just the size. The size amplifies it. A bad font is extra hard to read at a small size. A good font is easy to read at any size. The text on this forum is smaller than the small text in EVE at 1600x1200, but is far far easier to read, because it's in a font designed for reading: Verdana. There's a reason why the website uses Verdana (or Arial). Because it's easy to read. Edit: For those who can read the font, good for you. I wish I felt the font was easy to read. For what it's worth, I asked three family members, who were visiting for dinner, what they thought of the font. None of them play games, but all use the computer all day for work, programming, email, etc. They all thought the EVE font was simply terrible and not worth reading.
Auraurious Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.25 00:04:00 - [132] Personally I haven't had to much trouble with the font recently (yay for being 15 with 20/20 vision ). That said, I would very much like multible selectable fonts (hopefully better done fonts than eve's previous ones). _____________________________________________
deathforge	Posted - 2006.08.25 00:14:00 - [133] My only complaint about the font is it's very difficult (impossible, even) to distinguish an o from a zero. Not really an issue in empire space where systems have actual names, but in 0.0 it can make things a little tougher. Add a cross bar or whatever to the zero please
Maj Woodcock Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.25 00:18:00 - [134] Edited by: Maj Woodcock on 25/08/2006 00:18:14 There is nothing wrong with the font! Just down 2 shots of Brennivfn and everything is fine. I am sure that is what the DEVs did when they picked this font. Serouisly can you please roll it back to the one before RMR. DAMN still no face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands,hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H. L. Mencken
Kim Chee Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:23:00 - [135] I know they can't roll it back to pre-RMR, because that font can't handle the unicode support. It might be a good idea to either use one of the existing well-tested fonts that's designed for readability instead of coolness, or perhaps contract a font specialist to design one that is properly legible AND looks the way CCP envisions it should. The change in RMR made the font very hard to read, and after a few hours I had to go play some other game that didn't stress my eyes so much. I still get tension headaches after a while, although it's a bit better after the last couple of tweaks (or maybe my eyes are just getting worse and "adjusting"). The problem is, we're NOT font experts. We can't say exactly how things are wrong, just that they are. Although I think everyone can say that "l" should not look like "1" or "i" or "I", and "Q" should not look like "O" or "0". <=----=> *Vila Restal: I'm entitled to my opinion. Kerr Avon*: It is your assumption that we are entitled to it as well that is irritating.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2006.08.25 01:32:00 - [136] The fonts look great, the new additions in the latest patch especially, great work guys! Looking For Ventrilo Hosting
HapeMask	Posted - 2006.08.25 02:25:00 - [137] /signed :) I only occasionally have trouble reading it, but I ALWAYS have trouble reading system names typed into a chat window, such as any system with a G or 6 in it (lots). 8 and & also look identical on my screen which is quite a problem.
Kage Getsu Lordless Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 03:02:00 - [138] Originally by: Mephysto I am talking to the decision makers about the font replacement. In order to try and convince them I need the following from you the players: A Bug Report with attached screenshots (zipped, zip file size under 2mb) that clearly display the current font in your monitors native resolution, the current font in a non-native res and a clear description of the monitor type you use, your typical resolution, the what the native resolution is. Please note, this is by no means a guarantee that font replacement will become available. I'm not sure you people understand what our issues are with the font. It's not so much that it looks bad on specific monitors or at specific resolutions, it just looks a lot worse than the previous font used in Cold War. Just stop changing the blasted font, it's getting annoying. Roll it back to what it was during Cold War and leave it alone forever. _________________________________________________________
Celiss	Posted - 2006.08.25 03:21:00 - [139] There's no need to "rollback" to any font or hunt around for some random font. They either need to use the system fonts, supply a couple fonts (like Verdana), or allow us to put in our own fonts. The latter probably requires the least work, but the first option is the most likely to help grow their userbase. Verdana, Arial and several others have already been made available as replacement files. We know they work in EVE's system and they look great. Verdana is generally considered the best font for on-screen reading at small sizes. Again I want to emphasis that the poor font readability is due to poor font design, not a unique drawing issue on particular monitors. I have several machines at various reses, and while it gets much worse the smaller the text is (i.e. the higher the res), it is a poor font at all reses. Would any serious website with a lot of text use the current EVE font? Definitely not. Would publishers publish their books in it? Heck no. What if NYTimes or Salon magazine published their website in it? Someone would be fired. Again, not even the EVE Online website dares use such a heinous font. Here, Matthew Carter, one of the best known font designers, the one commissioned by Microsoft to design Verdana and Georgia, because Bill Gates put advanced readability as one of MS's top 5 goals.. talks about the process of designing a font for screen readability, with an emphasis on good spacing with good regularity in spacing. As well as other touches like clear distinctions between i and l, and attention make sure awkward letter combinations like 'fl' don't blur together. http://www.will-harris.com/verdana-georgia.htm Another interesting article, where the author surveyed users on font preferences. What's interesting is how Arial is preferred at larger sizes, but Verdana preferred at smaller sizes. http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt6/html-email-fonts.htm
Granger Gallente Tiberian Star	Posted - 2006.08.25 03:44:00 - [140] They should make it so you could choose the font. Cause I acctually like this font, nice and crisp. I say keep the font like it is

iqplayer Caldari Dragon's Rage Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.25 03:51:00 - [141] Edited by: iqplayer on 25/08/2006 03:53:07 Originally by: Celiss But to the point of my post... I tried taking screenshots at a non-native res, but they always come out looking exactly the same as my native LCD res, but cropped to the smaller res. i.e. not scaled like it actually looks on the display. I tried using both display adapter scaling and monitor scaling, either way it turns out the same. So unless you want us to take a picture with a digital camera (which I'm happy to do), there's no new info in the non-native res screenshot. Actually, this is a good point, as some of the issues could be caused the the scaling algorithm's in LCD monitors - but since those processes are done on the LCD, and a screenshot is handled at the PC, screenshots would not show scaling issues on LCD's. But even more basic than that, is the similarity in many letters. Personally, I would kill just for a slash in the zero, to differentiate from the letter O... What exactly is the problem with allowing players to choose from a variety of fonts? If it's a licensing issue, how about having a contest for players to design a font, and the best three are put in game to be selected from, along with the current font? (Though I'm sure some verification would have to be done to make sure contestants didn't infringe on any copyrights.)
StewDaddy	Posted - 2006.08.25 04:07:00 - [142] I agree the font is a bit to wide or spread apart but if i had a 27in monitor i probley wouldnt have any problem with it but since i am only i 20 i do so yeah dont liek the new font
Celiss	Posted - 2006.08.25 04:21:00 - [143] Choosing the font would be nice. Here's a comparison I did. Since I can't login with the old 3913 client to take in-game screenshots, I took a shot of the EULA. This may also help those who think the eve font rendering engine can't do a decent looking font, it can. Nothing is changed between these the two besides one 113k font file. EULA text compared between Dragon font and EVE Verdana font And here's a merge I did of the two, in photoshop. The first paragraph is the current font, the second EVE w/Verdana, the third back to current font. EULA with both fonts on one page (make sure you're viewing the image full-size, not scaled) I find that while I can read both, I can read the Verdana much more easily and with less strain.
Celiss	Posted - 2006.08.25 04:29:00 - [144] Originally by: iqplayer Actually, this is a good point, as some of the issues could be caused the the scaling algorithm's in LCD monitors - but since those processes are done on the LCD, and a screenshot is handled at the PC, screenshots would not show scaling issues on LCD's. ... What exactly is the problem with allowing players to choose from a variety of fonts? If it's a licensing issue, how about having a contest for players to design a font, and the best three are put in game to be selected from, along with the current font? (Though I'm sure some verification would have to be done to make sure contestants didn't infringe on any copyrights.) Scaling issues would certainly make any problem worse, but I'd be confident that anyone who has investigated the "font problem" would know that they need to run LCDs at the native res.. otherwise they'd be used to terrible fonts in all programs! As for having a font design contest, I have trouble imagining that as practical. Good font design is a lot harder than it looks. Moreover, the work has been done and is included with every Windows system. Ideally CCP should allow us to use built-in system fonts (no licensing issues). This is important because as new players come, a readable font is a big component of a pleasant user interface. Alternatively, the method with the least work would be to explicitly allow us to replace the font ourselves (no licensing issue there, since we supply the font). Lastly they could supply a limited set of alternate fonts which license-free or they have licensed, but this option has the least flexibility and most sticking points for CCP probably. And if anyone is wondering why I have so much time to post.. it's because I can't play for very much at a time with the current font. I'm normally not on the forums at all -- with a good font, I'm too busy playing EVE to post! Instead I've been watching EVE fan videos. Good stuff but I'm starting to run out. :)
Kage Getsu Lordless Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 04:36:00 - [145] Originally by: Celiss Choosing the font would be nice. Here's a comparison I did. Since I can't login with the old 3913 client to take in-game screenshots, I took a shot of the EULA. This may also help those who think the eve font rendering engine can't do a decent looking font, it can. Nothing is changed between these the two besides one 113k font file. EULA text compared between Dragon font and EVE Verdana font And here's a merge I did of the two, in photoshop. The first paragraph is the current font, the second EVE w/Verdana, the third back to current font. EULA with both fonts on one page (make sure you're viewing the image full-size, not scaled) I find that while I can read both, I can read the Verdana much more easily and with less strain. How did you do that? Screw what the developers and moderators say, CCP is horrible at making fonts. _________________________________________________________
31i73 BGG Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 05:12:00 - [146] oh please, theres nothing wrong with this font.
Kage Getsu Lordless Unbrella Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 05:15:00 - [147] Originally by: 31i73 oh please, theres nothing wrong with this font. It's tiny, squished together, and too tall and too thin. _________________________________________________________
Celiss	Posted - 2006.08.25 05:47:00 - [148] Edited by: Celiss on 25/08/2006 05:47:29 Originally by: Kage Getsu Originally by: Celiss Here's a comparison I did. EULA text compared between Dragon font and EVE Verdana font And here's a merge I did of the two, in photoshop. The first paragraph is the current font, the second EVE w/Verdana, the third back to current font. EULA with both fonts on one page How did you do that? Screw what the developers and moderators say, CCP is horrible at making fonts. What part are you asking about? Playing EVE with Verdana, or having one EULA with both font types in it? The latter, eulamerge1.png, was done using photoshop. I just stuck the 2nd paragraph of the Verdana pic in the EVE font pic.
Donmadefy	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:09:00 - [149] I've sent in my screenshots .. there were problems on the ship fitting page where the max targeting range number overlapped some of the text, unless you had selected condensed text which is just crippling.
Azulios Incarnation of Evil	Posted - 2006.08.25 10:27:00 - [150] I'll add the weight of yet one more unimportant and silent voice and vote a YES to this request, in the obscure and remote chance that a dev reads this, finds it funny enough to rememeber, and decides to bring it up at the next dev team meeting at CCP HQ. Go you good thing! Forum Portrait



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