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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
165
   |
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:29:00 -
[91] - Quote
Get rid of Aurm and let me pay for NEX items with ISK.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
280
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:43:00 -
[92] - Quote
Benilopax wrote:There has been talk of the issue of isk entering the game a higher levels than before, with no real counter in the way of isk sinks.
If you were a dev what would you do to make more isk leave the system?
Remove Insurance.
Let us eat cake! -áI mean open containers in corp hangers please ...
Let us stack all modules (eliminate repackaging), except damaged ones, give them a red hue/icon.
Let us see damaged drones in our drone bay!
|
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic
Tragedy.
192
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
Solhild wrote:Use isk for eve store items, including postage.
BAM! She solved that problem fast.
Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
280
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:45:00 -
[94] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:
- Larger tax for Jump Cloning, and Jump Clone Installation. 100k is nothing. And we're currently charged 0 isk for jumping. Shouldnt we need to pay Usage Based Billing bandwidth fees depending on our level training?
- Insurance - Remove it entirely
Love both ideas, how about remove Jump Clone timer and make it 10 m isk per jump?
Let us eat cake! -áI mean open containers in corp hangers please ...
Let us stack all modules (eliminate repackaging), except damaged ones, give them a red hue/icon.
Let us see damaged drones in our drone bay!
|
Lovejoy II
Lovejoy's Operations
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:51:00 -
[95] - Quote
Make a high-sec tax, working just like a corp tax. This would make it possible for CCP to effectively control inflation by lowering and raising said tax. |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2011.11.21 18:25:00 -
[96] - Quote
Some of these tax ideas (like docking fees) seem regressive in that they would probably disproportionately affect the people with the least amount of disposable ISK.
Also, if incomes are rising everywhere more or less equally, then inflation isn't a big deal. But if isk is being spread about inefficiently, and especially if that inefficiency is causing problems for newer/poorer capsuleers then CCP would have to look at where the ISK is going and then figure out a way to encourage a better distribution. |
Takseen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
26
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Posted - 2011.11.21 18:50:00 -
[97] - Quote
Lovejoy II wrote:Make a high-sec tax, working just like a corp tax. This would make it possible for CCP to effectively control inflation by lowering and raising said tax.
Implying nullsec Sanctums don't also vomit out copious amounts of ISK? |
Skex Relbore
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
52
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Posted - 2011.11.21 19:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Skex Relbore wrote:An ad hom is not an argument. Then why did you use it? Was your argument so week you felt the need to torpedo it before someone else got the chance?
You make no sense here. Pointing out that people who continue to believe something in the absence of supporting evidence are are idiots is not the same as saying your assertion is wrong because you are an idiot.
Important distinction that determines whether a personal attack actually constitutes a logical fallacy. Saying someone is an idiot for believing something foolish is not an ad hom.
You haven't offered any actual evidence supporting the proposition that there is inflation in the EVE economy, you've offered some rationalizations for why it hasn't manifested but you haven't actually provided evidence that it is actually in existence. This is just like all the real world economists of the Chicago school (you know the one EVE's economist belongs to) who've been harping for years about the threat of run away inflation as a result of quantitative easing. Those with a clue pointed out how such inflation should not be expected and thus far that's what reality has shown us.
Quote:
The only one who has all the data and who has any evidence for anything is the guy who says there is, indeed, inflation (or at least there was once they last presented any dataGǪ but they've stopped doing that, so meh).
This discussion has been had before. The fact is he's supplied very limited data. An increase in the isk supply does not automatically result in inflation. Even beyond the question of population growth versus isk accumulation there is the matter of an increased consumption and earning rate as players advance in skill and can start operating more expensive craft.
Basically the lack of inflation as a result of this increase in the isk supply tells us that there is likely a shortage of ISK relative to the over all economy to begin with as such further restrictions on said supply have a greater potential of being disruptive than positive.
You know what's worse that inflation from a monetary standpoint? Deflation, make isk more difficult to acquire and that's the path you are moving on.
Quote:Quote:All I see in all this inflation nonsense is a thinly veiled attempt to Nerf L4s. Then you should lay of whatever it is you consume because you're seeing things.
Once again show me the evidence. Don't give me rationalizations of why the evidence isn't visible show me some actual concrete evidence that inflation exists.
I'm telling you right now you won't find it. you won't find it because the nature of how MMO economics works will prevent it from manifesting.
Let me reiterate ISK is not currency in the traditional sense, It's simply one more commodity that people harvest. We could just as easily decided to use trit as an exchange medium and the economy would operated precisely the same as it does now.
ISK supply is self regulating. If inflation devalues isk then people will change activities. Sure not everyone will shift activities due to fluctuations in isk value but if the value shifts sufficiently then enough people will shift activities to balance things out.
This is why we've not seen any evidence of inflation, this is why we won't see any evidence of inflation no matter how many appeals to authority you make. |
Kemhotep
Celestial Apocalypse
0
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Posted - 2011.11.21 19:18:00 -
[99] - Quote
Quote:If you were a dev what would you do to make more isk leave the system?
Force people to pay in order to disable CQ?
- Kem. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic
Tragedy.
192
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:20:00 -
[100] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:
- Larger tax for Jump Cloning, and Jump Clone Installation. 100k is nothing. And we're currently charged 0 isk for jumping. Shouldnt we need to pay Usage Based Billing bandwidth fees depending on our level training?
- Insurance - Remove it entirely
Love both ideas, how about remove Jump Clone timer and make it 10 m isk per jump?
I like it. Of course now we have people clone jumping all over the place...but...I would rather deal with that then the alternative.
Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Zeomebuch Nova
Metalworks
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:22:00 -
[101] - Quote
i have not seen a single idea to sink the massive amount of isk from truly ISK flooded wallets.
Almost everyone is aiming to destroy the low/middle class wallets, yet none even said a word about the meaningful isk holders.
i wonder way... oh wait, actually i do not. |
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:27:00 -
[102] - Quote
less isk, more lp rewards ;) |
Evei Shard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:38:00 -
[103] - Quote
-Give probes and drones a max lifespan, similar to mining crystals (that does not effect performance).
-Charge gate-usage tax based on system sec status. It would be nice to have 1.0 space be the highest tax, though I'm not sure how it would allow for newbies to move about. However if that was in place properly, it would be another draw to lower sec systems. Base the tax on goods in the cargohold and encourage smuggling by providing a way for people to hide cargo from customs scans (I'd like to say scans in general, but that's a touchy subject, and isn't mandatory for the smuggling aspect).
-Include hefty fines for being caught smuggling
-Set all refineries to 30% and then offer 50% as a premium price based on volume refined
Profit favors the prepared |
Dr Karsun
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Care Factor
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:39:00 -
[104] - Quote
This belongs in F&I...
"Have you had your morning coffee?" -> the Coffee Lovers Brewing Club is recruiting! |
Skex Relbore
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 20:06:00 -
[105] - Quote
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:i have not seen a single idea to sink the massive amount of isk from truly ISK flooded wallets.
Almost everyone is aiming to destroy the low/middle class wallets, yet none even said a word about the meaningful isk holders.
i wonder way... oh wait, actually i do not.
If there was any actual inflation that problem would resolve itself. The very fact that people are hoarding isk is indicative of the lack of inflation.
The reason is that inflation is a devaluation of a currency, If there was isk inflation then the ISK squirreled away in thees peoples wallets would be losing value and you'd either reach the point where their wealth ceased to be wealth or they'd put their isk back to work.
This is a large part of the problem with the real world economy. Right now as my companies CEO said back at the beginning of the bust "cash is king" so you have all these companies sitting on large piles of cash rather than investing it, get some inflation going however and that would change, suddenly that cash would be losing value while sitting idle and that would act as an incentive to get it to work.
|
Gogela
Freeport Exploration
155
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Posted - 2011.11.21 20:54:00 -
[106] - Quote
Dr Karsun wrote:This belongs in F&I...
Given the tone of what's been happening lately with CCPs change in direction, the threads in GD about the new features and where eve is going of late, and the fact that this is a pretty significant economic concern that's been a problem for a while, I think CCP will be giving a little more lateral on your point with regards to this thread.
I think this is one of the most significant concerns with regards to the longevity of EvE. We don't want New Eden to end up like Greece, do we?
Zing!
Just kidding Greece! We wish you the best...
All GëíGêçGëí Ships | Many Odd GëíGêçGëí Items (+Drones) | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
51
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 21:50:00 -
[107] - Quote
I really don't understand how anyone can say that blowing up ships is not an ISK sink.
And more specifically, war is one of the biggest reducers of wealth in the game.
I will accept that when an insured ship gets blown up, at that precise moment, the loss of that ship is a net injector of ISK into the game.
But the people who are arguing that ship losses are an ISK faucet are looking at ISK with a flawed view.
What ISK truly represents is a perceived value of TIME, gametime to be precise.
When something is blown up, those minerals have to be remined. The modules that did not survive have to be reconstructed, and in most cases, the raw materials have to be harvested.
Whether it is a bot or a human harvesting the raw material, TIME must be burned up to replace that lost ship/module/POS.
That time has an opportunity cost attached to it. That is the loss of wealth in the game.
Look at it from a very simple model. Assume that the PvP'er replaces all his losses with his own industrial alt
The opportunity cost = what the indy alt could have accrued in wealth in the time spent gathering those resources/hauling those resources/refining those resources/building the replacement parts/hauling the replacement parts his PvP alt.
And to take it one step further, a massive war can truly reduce wealth creation in the game because instead of spending time grinding ISK in high sec/low sec/null sec, that person is sitting in a fleet earning nothing. When an alliance wide CTA is called and 800-1000 null sec players are not grinding sites or mining, that is one heluva reduction on the ISK faucets in the game.
PvP, especially wars, are indeed the greatest wealth sink in the game, which eventually translates into ISK. |
Trainwreck McGee
Ghost Ship Inc.
134
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 21:54:00 -
[108] - Quote
Destructible NEX store items
CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool |
Zimmy Zeta
Battle Force Industries
61
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 21:57:00 -
[109] - Quote
The ability to put bounties on players, even if they have a positive security standing....
Have you ever been pissed that one guy always keeps underbidding your market orders by 0,01 ISK?
Put bounties on the heads of your bothersome competitors, just for the fun of it...... |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
200
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 22:57:00 -
[110] - Quote
Let people use ISK to buy Aurum.
(now ducking out to avoid the flames....)
|
Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 23:10:00 -
[111] - Quote
As a few others have said:
Many of these proposed changes would harm the newest players and do relatively nothing to the old rich folk. Even if isk sinks get put in place that cause the rich industrialists and CEO's to throw away isk, there is risk that the change is too great and they begin to lose money for pushing goods into the market. The market then stagnates, prices shoot through the roof, and we get the same situation everyone is afraid of. On the flip side new taxes could be put in place that do nothing but slightly slow the increasing wallet size.
What everyone has to consider is that Eve doesn't behave like real life in terms of inflation. In real life we have a finite money supply, and inflation kicks in when we print more money to reflect the devaluation of the currency. By contrast in Eve, we have an infinite money supply with no foreign currency to measure ours against. The only measure of the value of isk is the time invested in acquiring that isk. Inflation becomes a non issue because the 99% control the value of almost every market good by determining how much time they're willing to invest to acquire that good. Industrialists want their goods to sell and so they quickly find the equilibrium between cost in time and quantity purchased, assuming a minimal amount of competition to drive prices to a reasonable level. In this way increasing isk does not create inflation as long as the methods of attaining said isk continue to remain stable. The only controlling factor in EVE inflation is the efficiency of common isk printing techniques. |
Jahso Kuhl
Galactical Core Worlds
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 14:32:00 -
[112] - Quote
I really wonder: what is the matter with you?
where in hell is that inflation you are babbling about?
@Dinsdale Pirannha
Quote:What ISK truly represents is a perceived value of TIME, gametime to be precise.
i do not agree with that completely, but since we measure some aktivities with the [ISK per h] unit it may be some truth in that view.
what is 1h play(eve-work) time worth?
a newbie will gladly work for 10 M ISK / h.
an oldie will rather idle somewhere than work for less than 100 M ISK / h.
so in fact there is no inflation at all, old players just perceive the inflation of percieved value of TIME.
But the market prices do not reflect that.
how long does it take to mine Tritanium worth 100 M ISK and ship it to a tradehub?
i think the big reason for all the complaining is the loss in value of ISK in relation to real money.
and that is inevitable, since eve-money is growing at a different rate as the real world request for ISK does. |
Carceret Rinah
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 15:04:00 -
[113] - Quote
Massive ISK sinks will just cause massive deflation, making the ISK-hoarders' money go even farther - and with no planned end to the deflationary action, this may encourage more ISK generation and hoarding.
Reducing ISK in the economy is more easily addressed by reducing the ISK faucets like rat bounties and mission rewards. The question to ask first is what game performance objective is met by reducing the supply of ISK? As long as most players see their incomes rise along with the cost of goods and services, and they continue to have fun and desire to earn ISK, what is the problem exactly? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
The Lostboys
169
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:00:00 -
[114] - Quote
Generally when people are talking about inflation in eve, they are talking about the PLEX and high end faction, deadspace, or officer items.
Things that could be changed to lower the faucets and increase sinks:
If someone with a GCC destroys a ship, the insurance payout for the destroyed ship does not come from the game but the player who fires the final blow. (No ISK? CONCORD takes it from you pilot's license time, 15 million per day).
Incursion isk can be reduced by changing the victory conditions to "all ships must be destroyed".
Rat bounties could be a mix of isk and LP. Along with a beefing up of the LP stores, this would reduce a faucet and boost a sink as the LP store is a major sink.
POS anchoring rights can be bought by corps with low standings.
Those with low security status can choose to accept lower bounties and higher sec status gains.
CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should.
Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
170
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:13:00 -
[115] - Quote
Dr Karsun wrote:This belongs in F&I...
F&I, where threads go to die. |
XY Zed
The Place where all good Souls go to die
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:14:00 -
[116] - Quote
Everytime you make a bad forum post you lose ISK... lol |
Feilamya
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:18:00 -
[117] - Quote
Give all your ISK to me. I promise to solve all of your inflation problems.
ISK is a raw material, stupid! |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
170
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:20:00 -
[118] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I really don't understand how anyone can say that blowing up ships is not an ISK sink.
And more specifically, war is one of the biggest reducers of wealth in the game.
Because unless you buy your ship from an NPC corporation, getting blown up is not an isk sink at all. In fact since you get an insurance payout, getting blown up is an isk faucet. But that's ok, if economic concepts and numbers make your head hurt, keep hitting F1, F2, F3 and tell everyone what a 'leet piwate you are.
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:38:00 -
[119] - Quote
random self destruction of any ship at random time without insurance pay-out.
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