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Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
38
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Posted - 2011.11.19 15:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
There has been talk of the issue of isk entering the game a higher levels than before, with no real counter in the way of isk sinks.
If you were a dev what would you do to make more isk leave the system? |
Solhild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Use isk for eve store items, including postage.
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Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
136
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
We need more ships blown up. I Support the Goons! |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
84
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
The ISK entering the game is balanced by the minerals, loot modules, and LP rewards entering the game. As too much ISK enters circulation, player focus will shift toward other forms of production. This is known as "reaching an equilibrium point" to people who destroy your employment prospects and/or retirement funds on a daily basis. |
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises The Silent One's
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
- Interactive Channels for CQ, pay isk for cool channels like live batttle feeds, or access to external station cameras
- Larger tax for Jump Cloning, and Jump Clone Installation. 100k is nothing. And we're currently charged 0 isk for jumping.
- 'new agent introduction' fees (Pay your current agent to introduce you to one of her contacts, would make agent system interesting too)
- remove insurance entirely
- Gate Usage Fees (Highsec paid to concord, nullsec paid to holding SOV or concord if thats too evil) |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Docking Fees (Bigger the ship the more it costs. Sec of system, standings with corp, and empire/alliance mod cost. Pod/Rookiee ship = free)
Higher taxes for everything
In 00, alliance could pay the system (i.e. destroy isk) to have local in systems. Kills a few birds with one stone
Bribes to move drugs through systems rather than have them confiscated immediately.
|
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
153
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mr LaForge wrote:We need more ships blown up.
That's a material sink, not an isk sink. Buying a ship does not remove ISK from the game, it merely tranfers ISK to the manufacturer/seller. And making ships is completely free apart from the nominal fee in NPC stations and the one time BPO fee.
I agree with the poster above me though - this goes back to a dev blog I was reading where CCP is trying to make it harder and harder to run large corporations/alliances. Make there be some sort of logistical part of the equation that increases exponentially with the size of the alliance, be it a docking fee, a "lease-hold" fee charged by the 4 main factions for holding nullsec systems, etc. Just like starbase charters can only be gotten from NPC corps via the LP store, there could be some other item or series of items that need to be included on a daily basis just to keep an empire/alliance alive.
But CCP knows better than everyone else how many people there are out there ratting in their supercaps. That's another thing - rat bounties could be reduced to match the difficulty of the kill. So killing a rat battleship in a T1 frigate would get you the maximum bounty while killing it in a dreadnaught would get you very little bounty. |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mr LaForge wrote:We need more ships blown up.
Doesn't remove isk from the game. Isk enters through bounties, mission rewards, incursions. Used to buy ships from a player. When destroyed, insurance adds isk to the pilot who looses the ship. Only thing lost in a ship death is minerals. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
594
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Mr LaForge wrote:We need more ships blown up. That's a material sink, not an isk sink.
As a matter of fact, pend insurance is one of the largest isk faucets in the game... morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Make insurance like real life insurance.
Make it required. Make it based on the individual policy holder.
And add in all the other things we hate about car insurance (even bad commercials).
Personally I hate the idea... but it would be an isk sink and remove the isk faucet that currently exists.
Another idea, make fewer, more challenging ships for mission, and rearrange bounties to be more per ship, but less overall (doesn't have to be much). |
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Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:The ISK entering the game is balanced by the minerals, loot modules, and LP rewards entering the game. As too much ISK enters circulation, player focus will shift toward other forms of production. This is known as "reaching an equilibrium point" to people who destroy your employment prospects and/or retirement funds on a daily basis.
No because isk isn't going away. Which means there are more in the system and those officer mods cost more isk. Imagine if 10 isk was a **** ton of money. A cormack's modified tracking computer went for like 500 isk. The value of the mod would be the same. Only difference is how much physical isk is trading hands. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hey, I've got an idea. Instead of penalizing ourselves with isk sinks, why does CCP work harder towards removing mission bots. As you know missioning really does CREATE isk. And bots do it 23/7. Now, I realize that it can be difficult, fraught with pitfalls and hard work. For be it for me to have to work harder in the game while more of the isk I earn is sunk into oblivion.
Or, better yet, remove all NPC sources of income. We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
84
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Destiny Corrupted wrote:The ISK entering the game is balanced by the minerals, loot modules, and LP rewards entering the game. As too much ISK enters circulation, player focus will shift toward other forms of production. This is known as "reaching an equilibrium point" to people who destroy your employment prospects and/or retirement funds on a daily basis. No because isk isn't going away. Which means there are more in the system and those officer mods cost more isk. Imagine if 10 isk was a **** ton of money. A cormack's modified tracking computer went for like 500 isk. The value of the mod would be the same. Only difference is how much physical isk is trading hands. Currency isn't obligated to go away. It can depreciate. At the end of the day, the value of ISK, and the corresponding value of goods such as minerals and loot, exist in a state of balance that reflects the difficulty of obtaining either in relation to the other.
The armchair economists are quick to cry "witch!" for all of the "ISK sinks" in the game, without understanding how the system really works.
What you want to do is put a damper on ISK printing machines (NPC bounties), instead of destroying the ISK in existence. This would lead to a more stable economy.
Mr Kidd wrote:Or, better yet, remove all NPC sources of income making missioning dependent on the market for income. And what's going to happen when the entirety of the game's ISK gets used up by clone costs, CSPA charges, and skillbook purchases? |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Let people by improved standings with the empire factions with very very large donations of ISK. Maybe a billion for a 10% increase? Hell, maybe let them buy higher security standings too.
Massively increase the costs to use the more popular highsec industrial slots, especially Material Efficiency research. It'll either sink a huge amount of ISK or clear up the one month queues.
I can't think of a lot of other NPC services that wouldn't be treading on the toes of existing player provided services. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1553
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ship upkeep. More costly LP stores. Cargo fees and market density fees (just to screw up the hubs both ways at the same timeGǪ )
Large Collidable Object wrote:As a matter of fact, pend insurance is one of the largest isk faucets in the game... GǪand by GÇ£one of the largestGÇ¥, you mean GÇ£the second smallestGÇ¥ (since it's #3 on a list of four main faucets). GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
594
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:by GÇ£one of the largestGÇ¥, you mean GÇ£the second smallestGÇ¥ (since it's #3 on a list of four main faucets).
I'd still call being in part of the top three 'one of the largest' - anyway - just a matter of perspective - your point is?
On topic: Personally, I'd favour removal of isk faucets and partially turning them into isk sinks. Pend insurance should be heavily nerfed or removed entirely, all NPC bounties should be changed to loot drops and LP payouts and isk rewards for incursions should be axed without any compensation. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
59
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Until we can convert isk into real life alcohol via aurum, I'm not sure what ccp can do to touch my wallet In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has angered numerous people for many different reasons and is widely considered as a 'bad move'. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1553
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:I'd still call being in part of the top three 'one of the largest' - anyway - just a matter of perspective - your point is? My point is that being the second smallest kind of clashes with it being one of the largest.
Still, you're quite right. It's probably better to adjust the faucets rather than add sinks, since sinks have a tendency to hit unevenly and since people will just do whatever they can to avoid them. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 15:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
I would start tweaking the faucets before creating new isk sinks.
For sinks: -rent out the stations in empire space to player corporations who in turn get some of the income (reprocessing and broker fees etc.) and can refuse access to enemies - add no-claim discounts to insurance, raise fee for people who lose too much - add corporate forumspace you can rent for isk |
Richard Hammond II
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
War
Neat idea huh? Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you. |
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Samillian
Trojan Trolls Controlled Chaos
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
I volunteer to be an ISK sink, send all excess ISK to me and I guarantee it will never bother you again.
If you don't go for that ship then something like maintenance costs, engine recalibration and servicing, docking fees are a few ideas that have been raised in the past. |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
I like the idea of micro isk sinks in empire, docking fees, gate fees.
We do get a free ride from empires for using their stuff.
Perhaps busy systems could charge more isk for docking and jumping due to congestion that would mean market hubs and incursion sites would charge more, as the empires milk the isk cow for funds. |
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:
- Advertising Fees - Allow Corps or alliances to post ads on the CQ Screens, and Billboards. Regional / Constellation / System transmission fees depending on local bids for air time. Not just recruit ads, but sell/buy ads, Mercenary Requests, etc. Basically whatever they desire.
Kinda already do this. You can put up corp adverts for the corp finder. |
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises The Silent One's
107
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote:
- Advertising Fees - Allow Corps or alliances to post ads on the CQ Screens, and Billboards. Regional / Constellation / System transmission fees depending on local bids for air time. Not just recruit ads, but sell/buy ads, Mercenary Requests, etc. Basically whatever they desire.
Kinda already do this. You can put up corp adverts for the corp finder. Yep but not many people do that. I think a lot more people would pay if their ads appeared visually on the billboards and CQ screens, not just in a hidden window. And if their ads had greater functionality then just recruitment |
Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
there already is a great isk sink ingame but all the carebears are to scared to use it.
its called pvp
Gÿ+/ /Gûî / \
|
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Malken wrote:there already is a great isk sink ingame but all the carebears are to scared to use it.
its called pvp
good try, but thats not isk sink, merely a transfer. unless you buy all your ships and modules 100% from npcs |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
594
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sven Hammerstorm wrote:Malken wrote:there already is a great isk sink ingame but all the carebears are to scared to use it.
its called pvp
good try, but thats not isk sink, merely a transfer. unless you buy all your ships and modules 100% from npcs
I think have a d+¬j+á vu from page 1...
Ship losses are isk faucets because pend insurance creates isk from thin air and puts it into your wallet...
I wonder how many people will still come up with that in this single thread. morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Malken
Celestial Apocalypse
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Large Collidable Object wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:Malken wrote:there already is a great isk sink ingame but all the carebears are to scared to use it.
its called pvp
good try, but thats not isk sink, merely a transfer. unless you buy all your ships and modules 100% from npcs I think have a d+¬j+á vu from page 1... Ship losses are isk faucets because pend insurance creates isk from thin air and puts it into your wallet... I wonder how many people will still come up with that in this single thread.
only if you fly cheap crap and insure them and have no slkills for expensive stuff.
Gÿ+/ /Gûî / \
|
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
Malken wrote:Large Collidable Object wrote:Sven Hammerstorm wrote:Malken wrote:there already is a great isk sink ingame but all the carebears are to scared to use it.
its called pvp
good try, but thats not isk sink, merely a transfer. unless you buy all your ships and modules 100% from npcs I think have a d+¬j+á vu from page 1... Ship losses are isk faucets because pend insurance creates isk from thin air and puts it into your wallet... I wonder how many people will still come up with that in this single thread. only if you fly cheap crap and insure them and have no slkills for expensive stuff. The only time a ship loss will be a sink of isk is if you got the ship from an LP store. If it is any t1, t2, or t3, it is always an isk faucet when a ship is lost. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:28:00 -
[30] - Quote
Not sure Eve needs ISK sinks, so much as wealth sinks. Not all wealth is made of money, let's get that out of the way for starters.
Eve needs more stuff consumed, more things that players need to have, versus what players would like to have. More consumables, more minerals consumed in ship repair, module operations, PI building, more mins in ammo, etc etc. People on planets that need to be feed, housed and defended - more stuff sinks versus just more ISK sinks.
ISK, like just about everything else created in Eve from the faucets, is an expression of time. Not enough time is being consumed by things other than ISK faucet usage. If more inelastic demand can be created in a few areas, then more time will be consumed in generating those products versus time consumed in generating ISK.
I am not advocating time sinks, for those that misunderstand, I'm suggesting make things, other than ISK generation, more worth the time by creating more demand for those products versus reducing supply of those products.
Parts of the Eve economy are experiencing price decreases, another side is experiencing price increases. This is the imbalance that needs to be addressed more so than the ISK supply. The increasing supply of money merely sheds light upon the structural imbalance of the "stuff faucet" and "stuff sinks". |
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Vaffel Junior
NorCorp Security
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:32:00 -
[31] - Quote
I bet CCP has a plan for this.... now that there is nothing expensive to use isk on anymore.. Maby burn isk on buying plex on market and use them for gametime ?
Well... i guess many do allready |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
148
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:32:00 -
[32] - Quote
Biggest sink I can think of is: If ship is destroyed as a result of you firing first (read: aggresses first) then insurance is voided.
But hate the idea of sink, would rather faucets were more tightly controlled/restricted. With ISK flowing as freely as it does, the sense of accomplishment when the last million for that upgrade to BS trickles in is gone and no amount of sinks can bring that feeling back ..
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Lexmana
Imperial Stout
58
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote: It's probably better to adjust the faucets rather than add sinks, since sinks have a tendency to hit unevenly and since people will just do whatever they can to avoid them.
So much better ... docking fees, parking fees (at station), high-security fees (for concord protection), gate jump fees (for gate gun protection) could serve double purposes.
|
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
348
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
give me your extra monies and I promise to create vast amounts of salvage throughout new eden and keep Dodi ship builders in business The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Ayame Tokugawa
Black Salmon
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Strip clubs!
or
Paying for crew members that live on your active ships.
or
Casinos! |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
154
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 16:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
Richard Hammond II wrote:War
Neat idea huh?
Unless you mean increasing the fee charged by Concord for war decs, discuss how war actually destroys ISK. War destroys material. War only destroys ISK if BPOs and other items only available for purchase from NPCs are destroyed (not captured) and then replaced. |
Mukuro Gravedigger
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 17:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Transfer Fees (or Shipping and Handling Fees).
You send money to an alt character, then there is a transfer fee based upon distance, and perhaps standing differences (computer upgrades to avoid glitches).
You directly trade an item or items to another player, handlers are paid to exchange the item - you think a pod pilot will be lugging modules around?
Whereas a broker has a market marker in place for you, the transfer of an item or items bought or sold have a fee tacked onto the price (dock workers get paid or drones / robots require upkeep costs, etc.)
And then a "pack rat" fee when you keep excessive amounts of "stuff" lying around a station. (Station manager: "Sir, while 500 million pieces of Tritanium is good for nearly everything, you've had it lying around collecting space dust the past three months! These stations walls are not expanding any further you know!")
I would definitely be paying big bucks monthly for that last idea. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1557
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 17:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
Malken wrote:only if you fly cheap crap and insure them and have no slkills for expensive stuff. No, no matter the cost of the ship, ships being destroyed are always ISK faucets (wellGǪ always up until Crucible, when it will become possible to lose a ship without creating ISK in the process).
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Skex Relbore
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 17:23:00 -
[39] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:The ISK entering the game is balanced by the minerals, loot modules, and LP rewards entering the game. As too much ISK enters circulation, player focus will shift toward other forms of production. This is known as "reaching an equilibrium point" to people who destroy your employment prospects and/or retirement funds on a daily basis.
This is the answer.
There is no need to worry about isk entering the system. It's a self balancing equation, as the isk supply increases relative to raw materials other activities become more lucrative and people shift their activities to compensate.
All this crying on and on about inflation are either idiots who don't understand how currency works (and how isk isn't really a currency anyway) or ISK rich players who want to protect the value of their asset by artificially limiting supply.
So the answer to the OP"s question is We don't need more isk sinks.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1558
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 17:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:There is no need to worry about isk entering the system. It's a self balancing equation, as the isk supply increases relative to raw materials other activities become more lucrative and people shift their activities to compensate. GǪexcept that as history has shown, they don't, because it's not as self-balancing as that and because people are not willing to switch to other activities.
Most importantly, those other activities don't become more lucrative, because they suffer from limitations of scale that the ISK-generating activities don't quite adhere to. As a result, people rather flock to the activities that further inflates the ISK supply, since that's the only way to stay ahead of the curve.
Quote:All this crying on and on about inflation are either idiots who don't understand how currency works GǪsuch as CCP's own economist, who is worried about how the ISK influx is not matched by a corresponding increase in materials generation and production. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
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Amro One
One.
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 17:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
I can be your ISK faucet. |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 17:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
Richard Hammond II wrote:War
Neat idea huh?
Thats actually only reason why its still out there. To boost the economy afterwards.
Well that and "religious zealots". |
C DeLeon
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 17:54:00 -
[43] - Quote
Here is my idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=35569&find=unread :D |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
172
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 20:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:Or, better yet, remove all NPC sources of income making missioning dependent on the market for income. And what's going to happen when the entirety of the game's ISK gets used up by clone costs, CSPA charges, and skillbook purchases?
I'm surprised you can't make that feat of logic on your own. No isk faucets....no isk sinks? We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Dbars Grinding
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 21:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
instant pvp arena once or twice a week. Also with NPCs that sell ships and modules that can only be used in the arena to make it balanced. There i just came up with a way to get a ton of subs and money for CCP. There is no reason not to have this. |
Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 22:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
The reason we got to this point is because CCP is scared of people not using their new features. I'm talking about Wormholes and incursions. CCP were too scared to just offer people "construction blocks" for new items to trade: T3s, implants, capital modules. So they decided to put a "little" isk on it, sleeper trade goods into wormholes and straight up isk onto incursions.
ISK from those sources are massive compared to missions. Missions might still generate more isk overall because of the amount of people running them but incursions might not be too far behind. People are blitzing them faster and faster and the incursions last for ages even after the revenant spawns because they can delay killing it for quite a while. |
Skex Relbore
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 22:08:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Skex Relbore wrote:There is no need to worry about isk entering the system. It's a self balancing equation, as the isk supply increases relative to raw materials other activities become more lucrative and people shift their activities to compensate. GǪexcept that as history has shown, they don't, because it's not as self-balancing as that and because people are not willing to switch to other activities.
uhuh once again if this were the case then why aren't prices increasing? Seriously if over supply of isk was such a problem then why don't Domi's cost 200 million isk?
If there really was an over supply of isk then prices would rise across the board. The fact that prices have not done so shows that there is no inflation and most certainly not any hyper-inflation. If anything the actual evidence has suggested a deflationary situation.
Obviously plenty of people are willing to switch to other activities or we would see those price increases I mentioned earlier.
Quote: Most importantly, those other activities don't become more lucrative, because they suffer from limitations of scale that the ISK-generating activities don't quite adhere to. As a result, people rather flock to the activities that further inflates the ISK supply, since that's the only way to stay ahead of the curve.
You're just simply wrong.
You know why more people aren't out mining? Because there is already an over supply of minerals relative to isk. so it isn't worth most peoples time save on a massive semi-afk (or bot) basis. If mineral prices were to rise to the point where mining Veldspar equaled or surpassed what one could make running L4 missions then you can be damned certain you'd see a shift from missions to mining.
Quote:Quote:All this crying on and on about inflation are either idiots who don't understand how currency works GǪsuch as CCP's own economist, who is worried about how the ISK influx is not matched by a corresponding increase in materials generation and production.
Yes such as their own economist who's from what I've seen is a member of the fresh water supply side school of economic thought that's been crying about the threat of inflation in the real economy for years due to quantitative easing (creating money) and have been consistently wrong over said period.
Just your wording tells me you don't really understand whats going on. If the economic activity (all that stuff in the game economy other than farming isk) did not at least match the rate isk was coming into the economy then you'd see evidence of inflation. You don't ergo anyone who insists there is inflation is an idiot.
Evidence always trumps theory those who insist otherwise aren't operating in objective reality.
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David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
223
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 22:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
use 1bil isk to pay the character transfer fees when selling toons Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1562
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 22:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:uhuh once again if this were the case then why aren't prices increasing? Hoarding instincts and loss aversion. Also, the prices of what, exactly? What are your indices?
Quote:Obviously plenty of people are willing to switch to other activities or we would see those price increases I mentioned earlier. GǪexcept that people have been quite vocal about not wanting to do so. Yes, some might, but a lot of people are so stuck doing the same thing and will seemingly prefer to quit the game rather than do something else. Or, put another way, plenty of people might consider switching, but is it enough?
Quote:You know why more people aren't out mining? Because there is already an over supply of minerals relative to isk. No, because there is an over-supply of minerals relative to production, which is what the worry is all about: not enough stuff is being produced, and not enough is being destroyed. They also don't mine because mining has become relegated to a second-tier source of said minerals. You know why more people aren't out running L3s? Because there are L4s.
Quote:If the economic activity (all that stuff in the game economy other than farming isk) did not at least match the rate isk was coming into the economy then you'd see evidence of inflation. GǪwhich you do, in spite of the mitigating factors of standard MMO hoarding. Idiot. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Arugas Koken
Peregrine Guard
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 23:00:00 -
[50] - Quote
Since establishments have been delayed, what about a gambling system on the CQ display with the house being an NPC.
There would finally be something to do in CQ and i guess it would be a substantial isk sink.
Blackjack, poker, slots etc. |
|
Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 23:02:00 -
[51] - Quote
docking tax based on shipsize (pods and frigs are free) higher taxes on buying/selling/producing higher contract tax (10k is silly) increased office tax
On the other end; lower bounties and insurance. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
90
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 23:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Skex Relbore wrote:
uhuh once again if this were the case then why aren't prices increasing? Seriously if over supply of isk was such a problem then why don't Domi's cost 200 million isk?
If there really was an over supply of isk then prices would rise across the board. The fact that prices have not done so shows that there is no inflation and most certainly not any hyper-inflation. If anything the actual evidence has suggested a deflationary situation.
Obviously plenty of people are willing to switch to other activities or we would see those price increases I mentioned earlier.
This is not true. An increase in the monetary base does not always reflect in all prices at the same time. Nor does it cause prices to increase at an even rate, they can still bounce around.
The basic rules in an expanding monetary base environment are the same as any other time. Those things which have small supply and those things that are most necessary, tend to reflect the economic environment first and most drastically. One of the differences in Eve from the real world is that there is almost nothing that is necessary. That we see rising prices in some areas, and decreasing in other areas is no surprise. |
Kalicor Lightwind
Vigihan Scelus Sceleris.
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 23:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
Make production require ISK, maybe slightly reduce mineral cost. That way ship destruction would actually be an ISK sink :P |
Capn Orgasmo
The Stampede.
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 23:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
Let people buy Secure containers that have expired at a set price of 500k they then get the contents of said containers to keep for themselves. Basically you gamble with what you buy |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 00:32:00 -
[55] - Quote
It's all talk.
There's no actual evidence that this is the case. No evidence of inflation (in fact, the price indexes tend to show deflation), and no actual numbers for the amount of ISK entering and leaving (and similar figures for the amounts of goods). Just speculation, and gossip.
Someone might like to run the numbers on the ISK vs material generated from mission running (and incursions). If you include LP on the material side of the balance sheet (because LP ends up as high value goods) then mission runners are probably pumping in goods to the economy as fast as ISK.
There seems to be a lot of ISK envy in these forums, and a lot of butt-hurt from plex prices, and people are starting to point fingers all over the place (mostly at the usual suspects). This whole thread reminds me of historical populations that have descended into mob mentality and started to blame all their woes on rumours of the unsavory activities of different groups : it's all the fault of the merchants, the 1%, or witches, or the gypsies, or the Jews. |
Arthur Frayn
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 00:38:00 -
[56] - Quote
Make Loyalty points buyable from LP store for isk. Suddenly you'll have a HUGE isk sink. |
Koronakesh
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 00:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
Charging people to post on the forum would be a fine isk sink. Amir al-Mu'minin of the Seekers of a Silent Paradise and Sr. Banker of EVE Online Hold'Em |
Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
65
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 00:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
The reason we haven't seen inflation is because most people in this game are misers with their spacewealth. And as easy as it is to compare prices and get the best deal, speculators in everything but plex are quashed. I too have seen nothing but deflation over my eve career.
It seems like the spectre of inflation has been looming over eve for years when if anything, prices have reduced relative to the increasing wealth. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
228
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 00:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ho you want a nice good isk faucet??
That sounds good, make taxes to Concord from alliance benefits -every 5day- touch the excellent level of 15%
Why not 15%
Well, when you mission whatsoever in high sec, if you have nothing else to do of your jurney because of your personal life that no one around give a frack about, you can make about 1.2B you pay 11% taxes right?
In null, low, if you do more than 1.5B a day then you should pay 15% to concord because...there's no real reason but who need it?
Bounty's are high, plex value are high, level 5 are in low/null, why the hell should they pay less when they have hundred times better possibilities income than in high sec?
By the way, wy is in high sec the highest level of killed ships/pods???
If it's really the case, then who cares about null when nothing interesting happens there?
Rabble rabble rabble... |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
371
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 05:54:00 -
[60] - Quote
The central design rule of ISK sinks - no matter how big or how onerous you make them, players will simply grind at the ISK faucets longer in order to stay ahead at their desired wealth level. Unless you hit the tipping point where you make it too onerous and suddenly get a mass exodus.
You also have to consider the effect of tacking fees onto everything when a new player comes into the game and only has 5000 ISK to their name. And if you say "anyone under 30 days gets a free pass", then people will just use throwaway alts to get past all of the new taxes and fees.
But since I'm an evil meanie...
- Double the broker fees in Jita CNAP 4-4 (base the surcharge on number of open orders) - Charge a 0.01% fee of the market order's remaining value if you want to price change. - Personal hangars with a (generous) size limit, or you can pay per month to have larger (better standings = cheaper) - Ship hangars in stations with a (generous) size limit and you can pay per month to have larger - Higher LP store ISK costs - Higher manuf / research slot fees in station slots (with standings giving a discount)
Yeah, a lot of those are evil / dumb ideas. Far better to turn the ISK faucets down a bit. Replace up to 50% of the existing ISK with drops that can be converted into LP or sold to other players. At which point, the player market takes over and self-regulates it (too many people doing XYZ? less reward per hour until enough people stop doing XYZ). |
|
Jooce McNasty
Islefive Consulting
47
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 06:32:00 -
[61] - Quote
Renting Station space for yourself - Every station you keep items and ships at charges you a fee depending on the total volume of items kept at that station. It always seemed unreasonable to me that these stations let people keep all their stuff their for free. You could create block sizes. So upto a certain amount of volume (including ships and modules) costs X amount/month . If you want to go to the next tier it will cost you X amount/ per month. Put the pricing on a curved scale to prevent people from just hoarding stuff at one location.
You could take this to the next level and charge corp's to store stuff as well but a reduced cost, or at % tax.
If your payments lapse they hold items hostage until you can cover your balance of what you owe. |
Elrich Kouvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 06:46:00 -
[62] - Quote
We should tax the heck out of everyone asking for a ISK sink.... After all if you needed it you wouldn't be trying to figure out ways of having it taken from you. Seriously, ISK is part of this economy driven game. The more ISK the larger the economy. |
TharOkha
0asis Group
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 06:51:00 -
[63] - Quote
1. buy couple of capital ship 2. trash them GÇ£Reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Stan Smith
Remenent British Federation
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 06:57:00 -
[64] - Quote
Quote:Station manager: "Sir, while 500 million pieces of Tritanium is good for nearly everything, you've had it lying around collecting space dust the past three months! These stations walls are not expanding any further you know!"
which is exactly when any self respecting pod pilot would pimp slap the station manager and retort, "***** please, like i care about your petty problems of storage space!" we are demi-gods afterall...
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
372
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 07:07:00 -
[65] - Quote
One other thing to consider - players willingly pay extra for convenience.
Extra fees for convenience items / services work well. Much of the EVE economy hinges on the principle that players will pay more for convenience (also sometimes stated as "goods acquire value as they move closer to the buyer").
|
Written Word
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
137
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 07:11:00 -
[66] - Quote
Dbars Grinding wrote:instant pvp arena once or twice a week. Also with NPCs that sell ships and modules that can only be used in the arena to make it balanced. There i just came up with a way to get a ton of subs and money for CCP. There is no reason not to have this.
Except for the small fact that it is completely stupid, you may be on to something |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 07:19:00 -
[67] - Quote
Repeatedly here I have seen calls to destroy more ships. This increases inflation. It is not an isk sink. the isk never leave the game. They merely move to the trader who moved the goods, the manufacturer who made them, and the miner/ PvEer who created the resources that were refined to make them. Then there is an insurance payout (more isk) and less resources competing for the same isk. Inflation. That said a suggestion to make an isk sink? OK. Make NPCs that sell tags for 20% more than the NPC buy price on tags. Heck make them pirate NPCs in low sec. Not only does this make an isk sink it revitalizes many of the now useless LP items and creates some sort of market equilibrium on tag prices. As well as a lucrative incentive to venture into low that hi-sec players will understand and respond to. 20% on a high-value low m3 item will inspire a lot of cov ops. Especially in the inflated market we see currently. My 2 isk. |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
362
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 07:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
Every 2 weeks everyone's wallet resets. |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 07:51:00 -
[69] - Quote
useless. Just means recycle your isk into resources twice a month. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 07:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
I'm not sure if this would be legal in Iceland or not but we should have all CCP employees required to wear one of those electric-shock dog collars and players would be able to activate those collars (on a specific employee) with varying voltage/duration based on the amount of ISK being 'sunk'.
Maybe that would motivate them to fix the EVE economy.
If that wouldn't pass Icelandic constitutional muster, I'd settle for all vanity items hereafter being sold for ISK from NPC sell orders. |
|
Arklan1
Dunedain Rangers WUT ALLIANCE
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 08:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
i'd say stop the insurance creatign isk out of thin air, but don't remove insurance all together (except for concord kills...) plenty of people buy insurance and dont lose a ship for a while. use those payments to derive the isk available to payout. not enough insurnace being bought to cover the cost of paying out claims? increase the price to buy. no more insruance isk faucet.
also, for a flat out sink - introuduce crews as an actuasl game mechanic. default crew is dirt cheap and provides barely any noticable benefit, but skilled crews offer additional bonuses, but at an isk cost. could also allow crews to be trained (how else do they get skilled?) which allows people willing to wait ...well, the same benefit as regular skill training vs buying a character. |
Elrich Kouvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 08:58:00 -
[72] - Quote
I wonder why everyone hates insurance? You know it was there to help pirates originally right? Er when there were pirates in EVE... Ah well at least we still have nullbears. |
DownTwisTeD
KaMiKaZes
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 09:44:00 -
[73] - Quote
Benilopax wrote:There has been talk of the issue of isk entering the game a higher levels than before, with no real counter in the way of isk sinks.
If you were a dev what would you do to make more isk leave the system?
like, what isk too spend... You got any? |
Anshio Tamark
Avitus Lugus
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 10:15:00 -
[74] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:- Interactive Channels for CQ, pay isk for cool channels like live batttle feeds, or access to external station cameras
- Advertising Fees - Allow Corps or alliances to post ads on the CQ Screens, and Billboards. Regional / Constellation / System transmission fees depending on local bids for air time. Not just recruit ads, but sell/buy ads, Mercenary Requests, etc. Basically whatever they desire.
- Larger tax for Jump Cloning, and Jump Clone Installation. 100k is nothing. And we're currently charged 0 isk for jumping. Shouldnt we need to pay Usage Based Billing bandwidth fees depending on our level training?
- Agent Introduction Fees (Pay your current agent to introduce you to one of her limited contacts, would make agent system interesting too)
- Insurance - Remove it entirely
- Concord Fees - You pay your monthly concord protection fee, at your protection level, depending on the response time / alpha / ecm options you like... If you want concord. Newbs get free concord protection up to certain SP level.
- Spy Agents - Beef up agent's ability to track people, to also find out their privately held certificates, Recent Transactions (some limits maybe), Implants or Boosters, all additional information costing more then the basic location info.
- Gate Usage Fees - Fees depending on concord /Security oft he system. nullsec set by sov holder up to a maximum limit
- Portrait Re-customization Fees - charge us isk for re-customization/update of our portrait.
- Dock Fees as Standard - Make docking fees standard, not just an optional SOV thing.
- Map Features as Optional - Make the various Star Map stats a subscription based service, so we need to subscribe to Sov Package to get updates about sov changes, or subscribe to Statistics Package to get intel about cynos and number of jumps. This of course would require the Star Map to become more integrated and easier to take advantage of What I see is a bunch of ways to make sure new players don't want to pay for a full account. I can accept a couple of them, but that's it. Gates should be free to use. Docking should be free as it is right now (don't know, nor want to bother with learning about SOV, as I don't plan on ever going there anyway).
Now, for the couple of them that I can actually accept, player-posted CQ-ads would be cool, if nothing else, just a fancy way for players to advertise with whatever they want.
I can also agree that Clone Jumping should cost a bit of ISK, not necessarily 10mil each time you jump, but a 100k ISK would still be a reasonable fee. There's no way they'd let us use such a service for free in real life anyway, so why should it be free in EVE? The Jump Clone maintenance-crew also needs food... And on that note, perhaps increasing the fee for installing a Jump Clone a bit for every Jump Clone you have would make sense too.
As for Portrait Re-customization, make it cost ISK. Seriously. Make sure it's not cheap or free. Right now, anyone can do it without even having a reason. I don't think you can just go get free plastic surgery at your local hospital without having a proper reason at all. Make it cost something.
All in all, you have a couple of good suggestions, and a couple of suggestions that are just horrible. If Docking suddenly costs ISK, what do you do when you run have no ISK and are in a ship with no weapons? Same goes for the gates. |
C DeLeon
Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 10:44:00 -
[75] - Quote
I'm gonna copy & paste my idea from the features and ideas because I'm actually curious about others opinions about it but noone answers there :)
Quote:I think the real sickness of the inflation in EVE and similar games where the economy and market is highly influenced by the players is that the money doesn't devaluate as fast as the amount of money raising in the game.
Why? Because the incomes what pumps the money into the economy are static (bounty, mission reward etc) and because of this it's totally worth for the players to stockpile insane amounts of money on their wallet.
And players will do it if they can do it. It's in our nature. I'm almost sure that the market prices aren't raising as fast as the total money amount because of this. Nerfing money incomes or giving to the game more money sinks aren't real solution. This just makes things harder for the same outcome.
IRL the inflation affects every part of the economy and forces everyone to push back their money to the market as fast as possible because of the devaluation. The cash-flow what keeps the economy alive and developing.
I think the real solution is to make the inflation healthy and not trying to stop it.
How? By constantly monitoring the inflation and raising the mission rewards, bountys, LP store money costs, manufacturing and research slot prices, skillbooks and BPOs prices etc (so all the isk incomes and isk sinks) with the amount of inflation from time to time.
I know this could cause insane inflation and faster market price raising on short term but the real value of the currency will change oppositely with the total amount of the money in the game and the players will forced to push back their money to the market during higher inflation period(or using it to pew pew more) and not sitting on it.
If too much money gets into the game then CCP can just change for a new currency with a higher value.
Opinions? |
Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.20 11:39:00 -
[76] - Quote
maybe i miss the point but i don't see a problem.
prices are pretty stable on the long run.
20mil isk is still a lot of money for a new character and will buy you almost everything you will need the first few weeks.
2bil is still not a lot of money once you start flying fancy ships.
20bil is still not a lot of money once you start flying super caps.
stockpiled money won't ruin the market unless released at once and used to ruin markets on purpose (very much what we see irl on a daily basis).
every isk spent in the market is circulated not generated. only bounties and missions "generate" money. what you would need to monitor is the isk/character ratio. once this starts to rise in a wicked way over the whole poluation of eve (remember the 99% ) we have a problem.
|
Skex Relbore
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 09:55:00 -
[77] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Idiot. *OMG I hate this ******* forum 3 replies ate so far by the ******* timer*
An ad hom is not an argument.
Because I don't feel like line by lining this again for the 4th time I'm just going to address this all at once.\
All the arguments you give for the lack of any evidence of the inflation you tell us is so problematic are at best modifiers to the equilibrium point of when other activities become more lucrative than ISK farming. Though honestly they seem more like excuses and rationalizations to me.
Beyond this you've yet to demonstrate what harm is being caused by this phantom inflation nor have you explained how making isk acquisition more tedious would improve the game.
All I see in all this inflation nonsense is a thinly veiled attempt to Nerf L4s.
|
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 12:21:00 -
[78] - Quote
Is it possible that one big isk sink is people leaving the game?
|
Jahso Kuhl
Galactical Core Worlds
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 14:25:00 -
[79] - Quote
C DeLeon wrote:Quote:I think the real sickness of the inflation in EVE and similar games where the economy and market is highly influenced by the players is that the money doesn't devaluate as fast as the amount of money raising in the game. ...
where do you see inflation? Low-Minerals are stable for years. Hi-Menerals are deflating. T1-Products are cheap as they could get. T2-Products are now defined by invention and not by the BPO-Holders.
Faction/Officer/Deadspace-loot always was espensive.
Plex ..... do not mistake it for an item! it is a substitute for real money. It defines the rate of exchange ISK<>$ .
|
Indeterminacy
THORN Syndicate BricK sQuAD.
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:19:00 -
[80] - Quote
If you need an ISK sink just look me up in-game > right click > gief monee
thx |
|
Slorge
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:22:00 -
[81] - Quote
If ship insurance is an ISK faucet then why not make it player run. Users could sell their own insurance contracts to other players and then be responsible for paying out costs and receiving the initial payment.
This would reduce ISK in game AND would fit in great with CCPs ideology AND add an interesting new aspect to the game that players could make (or lose) ISK on. |
Metal Icarus
xHELLonEARTHx Rookie Empire
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:34:00 -
[82] - Quote
Boosters would be a nice ISK sink if it were worth more to everyday pilots... Like say, removals/nerf of side effects. Going to run a sanctum by yourself? Or maybe even a 10/10... use an improved blue pill!
I'd say that boosters will create a way to gain a short advantage for a while. To many that would be worth a lot of it lets you do things that you'd otherwise just barely fail at.
With the simplification of POS fuel, improvement of radar exploration sites, one could imagine more booster manufacturers setting up shop! I know I am!
One thing that would be cool is if one could put their corporations name of the booster so that when it is sold, people know which corporation made it. In fact, this should happen to ALL manufactured goods. This would make public opinion matter to mega alliances in null. Imagine boycotts happening against people's product in highsec.
Corporation Product Branding should be in the next big expansion! Oh, man that would be cool! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1600
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:40:00 -
[83] - Quote
Slorge wrote:If ship insurance is an ISK faucet then why not make it player run. Because players wouldn't do it unless it made money, and the purpose of insurance is not to be a profitable business but to make it less costly to engage in combat.
Faucets are not bad GÇö in fact, they're required. It's too large and unevently distributed faucets that cause problems. Insurance is particularly not-bad since it very directly ties in with production of new ships.
Skex Relbore wrote:An ad hom is not an argument. Then why did you use it? Was your argument so week you felt the need to torpedo it before someone else got the chance?
Quote:All the arguments you give for the lack of any evidence of the inflation you tell us is so problematic are at best modifiers to the equilibrium point of when other activities become more lucrative than ISK farming. The only one who has all the data and who has any evidence for anything is the guy who says there is, indeed, inflation (or at least there was once they last presented any dataGǪ but they've stopped doing that, so meh).
Quote:All I see in all this inflation nonsense is a thinly veiled attempt to Nerf L4s. Then you should lay of whatever it is you consume because you're seeing things. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Slorge
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:44:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Slorge wrote:If ship insurance is an ISK faucet then why not make it player run. Because players wouldn't do it unless it made money, and the purpose of insurance is not to be a profitable business but to make it less costly to engage in combat.
Well, how do real world insurance companies manage to make money then? Maybe insurance doesn't make profit at the current rates in Eve but if it were player run they would adjust to an appropriate level where people could make some small level of income I think.
|
Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:59:00 -
[85] - Quote
Ship skins.
I'd pay for a Blood raider skin for my Sacrilege. |
Illwill Bill
Svea Rike Controlled Chaos
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 15:59:00 -
[86] - Quote
Edit: The hell is wrong with Eve gate today? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1600
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:03:00 -
[87] - Quote
Slorge wrote:Well, how do real world insurance companies manage to make money then? By not insuring people who get repeatedly blown up and definitely not insuring people who sign a contract with the express purpose of getting blown up (and by trying to pay out as little as possible to those who managed to get an insurance and who still got hurt).
In EVE, insurance is there to make you more likely to get blown up. IRL, being more likely to get blown up means you're not getting an insurance.
They're pretty much each other's exact opposites. The service Pend provides is not a business GÇö it's an incentive scheme to engage in insurance-generating behaviour.
Quote:if it were player run they would adjust to an appropriate level where people could make some small level of income I think. If it were player run, it would only be used by people who never got blown up, and who would therefore stop paying insurance since they're not getting anything for the money they pay. It wouldn't serve the same function as the insurance mechanic, and it would basically be a different skew of Jita local scam-spamming. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
WuMaTih
League of Gentlemen Intrepid Crossing
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:44:00 -
[88] - Quote
a ccp run lottery.. think about it this is a good one. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration
155
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:00:00 -
[89] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:- Interactive Channels for CQ, pay isk for cool channels like live batttle feeds, or access to external station cameras
- Advertising Fees - Allow Corps or alliances to post ads on the CQ Screens, and Billboards. Regional / Constellation / System transmission fees depending on local bids for air time. Not just recruit ads, but sell/buy ads, Mercenary Requests, etc. Basically whatever they desire.
- Larger tax for Jump Cloning, and Jump Clone Installation. 100k is nothing. And we're currently charged 0 isk for jumping. Shouldnt we need to pay Usage Based Billing bandwidth fees depending on our level training?
- Agent Introduction Fees (Pay your current agent to introduce you to one of her limited contacts, would make agent system interesting too)
- Insurance - Remove it entirely
- Concord Fees - You pay your monthly concord protection fee, at your protection level, depending on the response time / alpha / ecm options you like... If you want concord. Newbs get free concord protection up to certain SP level.
- Spy Agents - Beef up agent's ability to track people, to also find out their privately held certificates, Recent Transactions (some limits maybe), Implants or Boosters, all additional information costing more then the basic location info.
- Gate Usage Fees - Fees depending on concord /Security oft he system. nullsec set by sov holder up to a maximum limit
- Portrait Re-customization Fees - charge us isk for re-customization/update of our portrait.
- Dock Fees as Standard - Make docking fees standard, not just an optional SOV thing.
- Map Features as Optional - Make the various Star Map stats a subscription based service, so we need to subscribe to Sov Package to get updates about sov changes, or subscribe to Statistics Package to get intel about cynos and number of jumps. This of course would require the Star Map to become more integrated and easier to take advantage of
This ^
I think this guy just figured it all out. Do this... all of it... would be my vote... were we voting... All GëíGêçGëí Ships | Many Odd GëíGêçGëí Items (+Drones) | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
Jaxemont
Look At This Amazing Bullet
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:04:00 -
[90] - Quote
If an aggroed logistics ship wants to dock in high sec space, they must pay 100 mil docking fee.
This is an isk sink and a deterrent to neutral RR. Two birds with one stone. |
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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
165
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:29:00 -
[91] - Quote
Get rid of Aurm and let me pay for NEX items with ISK.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
280
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:43:00 -
[92] - Quote
Benilopax wrote:There has been talk of the issue of isk entering the game a higher levels than before, with no real counter in the way of isk sinks.
If you were a dev what would you do to make more isk leave the system?
Remove Insurance. Let us eat cake! -áI mean open containers in corp hangers please ... Let us stack all modules (eliminate repackaging), except damaged ones, give them a red hue/icon. Let us see damaged drones in our drone bay!
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Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
192
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
Solhild wrote:Use isk for eve store items, including postage.
BAM! She solved that problem fast. Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
280
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:45:00 -
[94] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote: - Larger tax for Jump Cloning, and Jump Clone Installation. 100k is nothing. And we're currently charged 0 isk for jumping. Shouldnt we need to pay Usage Based Billing bandwidth fees depending on our level training?
- Insurance - Remove it entirely
Love both ideas, how about remove Jump Clone timer and make it 10 m isk per jump? Let us eat cake! -áI mean open containers in corp hangers please ... Let us stack all modules (eliminate repackaging), except damaged ones, give them a red hue/icon. Let us see damaged drones in our drone bay!
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Lovejoy II
Lovejoy's Operations
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:51:00 -
[95] - Quote
Make a high-sec tax, working just like a corp tax. This would make it possible for CCP to effectively control inflation by lowering and raising said tax. |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 18:25:00 -
[96] - Quote
Some of these tax ideas (like docking fees) seem regressive in that they would probably disproportionately affect the people with the least amount of disposable ISK.
Also, if incomes are rising everywhere more or less equally, then inflation isn't a big deal. But if isk is being spread about inefficiently, and especially if that inefficiency is causing problems for newer/poorer capsuleers then CCP would have to look at where the ISK is going and then figure out a way to encourage a better distribution. |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 18:50:00 -
[97] - Quote
Lovejoy II wrote:Make a high-sec tax, working just like a corp tax. This would make it possible for CCP to effectively control inflation by lowering and raising said tax. Implying nullsec Sanctums don't also vomit out copious amounts of ISK? |
Skex Relbore
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Skex Relbore wrote:An ad hom is not an argument. Then why did you use it? Was your argument so week you felt the need to torpedo it before someone else got the chance? You make no sense here. Pointing out that people who continue to believe something in the absence of supporting evidence are are idiots is not the same as saying your assertion is wrong because you are an idiot.
Important distinction that determines whether a personal attack actually constitutes a logical fallacy. Saying someone is an idiot for believing something foolish is not an ad hom.
You haven't offered any actual evidence supporting the proposition that there is inflation in the EVE economy, you've offered some rationalizations for why it hasn't manifested but you haven't actually provided evidence that it is actually in existence. This is just like all the real world economists of the Chicago school (you know the one EVE's economist belongs to) who've been harping for years about the threat of run away inflation as a result of quantitative easing. Those with a clue pointed out how such inflation should not be expected and thus far that's what reality has shown us.
Quote: The only one who has all the data and who has any evidence for anything is the guy who says there is, indeed, inflation (or at least there was once they last presented any dataGǪ but they've stopped doing that, so meh).
This discussion has been had before. The fact is he's supplied very limited data. An increase in the isk supply does not automatically result in inflation. Even beyond the question of population growth versus isk accumulation there is the matter of an increased consumption and earning rate as players advance in skill and can start operating more expensive craft.
Basically the lack of inflation as a result of this increase in the isk supply tells us that there is likely a shortage of ISK relative to the over all economy to begin with as such further restrictions on said supply have a greater potential of being disruptive than positive.
You know what's worse that inflation from a monetary standpoint? Deflation, make isk more difficult to acquire and that's the path you are moving on.
Quote:Quote:All I see in all this inflation nonsense is a thinly veiled attempt to Nerf L4s. Then you should lay of whatever it is you consume because you're seeing things.
Once again show me the evidence. Don't give me rationalizations of why the evidence isn't visible show me some actual concrete evidence that inflation exists.
I'm telling you right now you won't find it. you won't find it because the nature of how MMO economics works will prevent it from manifesting.
Let me reiterate ISK is not currency in the traditional sense, It's simply one more commodity that people harvest. We could just as easily decided to use trit as an exchange medium and the economy would operated precisely the same as it does now.
ISK supply is self regulating. If inflation devalues isk then people will change activities. Sure not everyone will shift activities due to fluctuations in isk value but if the value shifts sufficiently then enough people will shift activities to balance things out.
This is why we've not seen any evidence of inflation, this is why we won't see any evidence of inflation no matter how many appeals to authority you make. |
Kemhotep
Celestial Apocalypse
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:18:00 -
[99] - Quote
Quote:If you were a dev what would you do to make more isk leave the system?
Force people to pay in order to disable CQ?
- Kem. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
192
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:20:00 -
[100] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:Terminal Insanity wrote: - Larger tax for Jump Cloning, and Jump Clone Installation. 100k is nothing. And we're currently charged 0 isk for jumping. Shouldnt we need to pay Usage Based Billing bandwidth fees depending on our level training?
- Insurance - Remove it entirely
Love both ideas, how about remove Jump Clone timer and make it 10 m isk per jump? I like it. Of course now we have people clone jumping all over the place...but...I would rather deal with that then the alternative. Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
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Zeomebuch Nova
Metalworks
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:22:00 -
[101] - Quote
i have not seen a single idea to sink the massive amount of isk from truly ISK flooded wallets. Almost everyone is aiming to destroy the low/middle class wallets, yet none even said a word about the meaningful isk holders.
i wonder way... oh wait, actually i do not. |
Gilbaron
The Scope Gallente Federation
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:27:00 -
[102] - Quote
less isk, more lp rewards ;) |
Evei Shard
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:38:00 -
[103] - Quote
-Give probes and drones a max lifespan, similar to mining crystals (that does not effect performance).
-Charge gate-usage tax based on system sec status. It would be nice to have 1.0 space be the highest tax, though I'm not sure how it would allow for newbies to move about. However if that was in place properly, it would be another draw to lower sec systems. Base the tax on goods in the cargohold and encourage smuggling by providing a way for people to hide cargo from customs scans (I'd like to say scans in general, but that's a touchy subject, and isn't mandatory for the smuggling aspect).
-Include hefty fines for being caught smuggling
-Set all refineries to 30% and then offer 50% as a premium price based on volume refined
Profit favors the prepared |
Dr Karsun
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club Care Factor
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:39:00 -
[104] - Quote
This belongs in F&I... "Have you had your morning coffee?" -> the Coffee Lovers Brewing Club is recruiting! |
Skex Relbore
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 20:06:00 -
[105] - Quote
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:i have not seen a single idea to sink the massive amount of isk from truly ISK flooded wallets. Almost everyone is aiming to destroy the low/middle class wallets, yet none even said a word about the meaningful isk holders.
i wonder way... oh wait, actually i do not.
If there was any actual inflation that problem would resolve itself. The very fact that people are hoarding isk is indicative of the lack of inflation.
The reason is that inflation is a devaluation of a currency, If there was isk inflation then the ISK squirreled away in thees peoples wallets would be losing value and you'd either reach the point where their wealth ceased to be wealth or they'd put their isk back to work.
This is a large part of the problem with the real world economy. Right now as my companies CEO said back at the beginning of the bust "cash is king" so you have all these companies sitting on large piles of cash rather than investing it, get some inflation going however and that would change, suddenly that cash would be losing value while sitting idle and that would act as an incentive to get it to work.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration
155
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 20:54:00 -
[106] - Quote
Dr Karsun wrote:This belongs in F&I...
Given the tone of what's been happening lately with CCPs change in direction, the threads in GD about the new features and where eve is going of late, and the fact that this is a pretty significant economic concern that's been a problem for a while, I think CCP will be giving a little more lateral on your point with regards to this thread.
I think this is one of the most significant concerns with regards to the longevity of EvE. We don't want New Eden to end up like Greece, do we?
Zing!
Just kidding Greece! We wish you the best... All GëíGêçGëí Ships | Many Odd GëíGêçGëí Items (+Drones) | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
51
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 21:50:00 -
[107] - Quote
I really don't understand how anyone can say that blowing up ships is not an ISK sink. And more specifically, war is one of the biggest reducers of wealth in the game.
I will accept that when an insured ship gets blown up, at that precise moment, the loss of that ship is a net injector of ISK into the game.
But the people who are arguing that ship losses are an ISK faucet are looking at ISK with a flawed view.
What ISK truly represents is a perceived value of TIME, gametime to be precise. When something is blown up, those minerals have to be remined. The modules that did not survive have to be reconstructed, and in most cases, the raw materials have to be harvested.
Whether it is a bot or a human harvesting the raw material, TIME must be burned up to replace that lost ship/module/POS. That time has an opportunity cost attached to it. That is the loss of wealth in the game.
Look at it from a very simple model. Assume that the PvP'er replaces all his losses with his own industrial alt The opportunity cost = what the indy alt could have accrued in wealth in the time spent gathering those resources/hauling those resources/refining those resources/building the replacement parts/hauling the replacement parts his PvP alt.
And to take it one step further, a massive war can truly reduce wealth creation in the game because instead of spending time grinding ISK in high sec/low sec/null sec, that person is sitting in a fleet earning nothing. When an alliance wide CTA is called and 800-1000 null sec players are not grinding sites or mining, that is one heluva reduction on the ISK faucets in the game.
PvP, especially wars, are indeed the greatest wealth sink in the game, which eventually translates into ISK. |
Trainwreck McGee
Ghost Ship Inc.
134
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 21:54:00 -
[108] - Quote
Destructible NEX store items
CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool |
Zimmy Zeta
Battle Force Industries
61
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 21:57:00 -
[109] - Quote
The ability to put bounties on players, even if they have a positive security standing.... Have you ever been pissed that one guy always keeps underbidding your market orders by 0,01 ISK? Put bounties on the heads of your bothersome competitors, just for the fun of it...... |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
200
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 22:57:00 -
[110] - Quote
Let people use ISK to buy Aurum.
(now ducking out to avoid the flames....)
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Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 23:10:00 -
[111] - Quote
As a few others have said:
Many of these proposed changes would harm the newest players and do relatively nothing to the old rich folk. Even if isk sinks get put in place that cause the rich industrialists and CEO's to throw away isk, there is risk that the change is too great and they begin to lose money for pushing goods into the market. The market then stagnates, prices shoot through the roof, and we get the same situation everyone is afraid of. On the flip side new taxes could be put in place that do nothing but slightly slow the increasing wallet size.
What everyone has to consider is that Eve doesn't behave like real life in terms of inflation. In real life we have a finite money supply, and inflation kicks in when we print more money to reflect the devaluation of the currency. By contrast in Eve, we have an infinite money supply with no foreign currency to measure ours against. The only measure of the value of isk is the time invested in acquiring that isk. Inflation becomes a non issue because the 99% control the value of almost every market good by determining how much time they're willing to invest to acquire that good. Industrialists want their goods to sell and so they quickly find the equilibrium between cost in time and quantity purchased, assuming a minimal amount of competition to drive prices to a reasonable level. In this way increasing isk does not create inflation as long as the methods of attaining said isk continue to remain stable. The only controlling factor in EVE inflation is the efficiency of common isk printing techniques. |
Jahso Kuhl
Galactical Core Worlds
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 14:32:00 -
[112] - Quote
I really wonder: what is the matter with you?
where in hell is that inflation you are babbling about?
@Dinsdale Pirannha
Quote:What ISK truly represents is a perceived value of TIME, gametime to be precise.
i do not agree with that completely, but since we measure some aktivities with the [ISK per h] unit it may be some truth in that view. what is 1h play(eve-work) time worth? a newbie will gladly work for 10 M ISK / h. an oldie will rather idle somewhere than work for less than 100 M ISK / h.
so in fact there is no inflation at all, old players just perceive the inflation of percieved value of TIME. But the market prices do not reflect that. how long does it take to mine Tritanium worth 100 M ISK and ship it to a tradehub?
i think the big reason for all the complaining is the loss in value of ISK in relation to real money. and that is inevitable, since eve-money is growing at a different rate as the real world request for ISK does. |
Carceret Rinah
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 15:04:00 -
[113] - Quote
Massive ISK sinks will just cause massive deflation, making the ISK-hoarders' money go even farther - and with no planned end to the deflationary action, this may encourage more ISK generation and hoarding.
Reducing ISK in the economy is more easily addressed by reducing the ISK faucets like rat bounties and mission rewards. The question to ask first is what game performance objective is met by reducing the supply of ISK? As long as most players see their incomes rise along with the cost of goods and services, and they continue to have fun and desire to earn ISK, what is the problem exactly? |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. The Lostboys
169
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:00:00 -
[114] - Quote
Generally when people are talking about inflation in eve, they are talking about the PLEX and high end faction, deadspace, or officer items.
Things that could be changed to lower the faucets and increase sinks:
If someone with a GCC destroys a ship, the insurance payout for the destroyed ship does not come from the game but the player who fires the final blow. (No ISK? CONCORD takes it from you pilot's license time, 15 million per day).
Incursion isk can be reduced by changing the victory conditions to "all ships must be destroyed".
Rat bounties could be a mix of isk and LP. Along with a beefing up of the LP stores, this would reduce a faucet and boost a sink as the LP store is a major sink.
POS anchoring rights can be bought by corps with low standings.
Those with low security status can choose to accept lower bounties and higher sec status gains.
CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
170
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:13:00 -
[115] - Quote
Dr Karsun wrote:This belongs in F&I...
F&I, where threads go to die. |
XY Zed
The Place where all good Souls go to die
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:14:00 -
[116] - Quote
Everytime you make a bad forum post you lose ISK... lol |
Feilamya
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:18:00 -
[117] - Quote
Give all your ISK to me. I promise to solve all of your inflation problems.
ISK is a raw material, stupid! |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
170
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:20:00 -
[118] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I really don't understand how anyone can say that blowing up ships is not an ISK sink. And more specifically, war is one of the biggest reducers of wealth in the game.
Because unless you buy your ship from an NPC corporation, getting blown up is not an isk sink at all. In fact since you get an insurance payout, getting blown up is an isk faucet. But that's ok, if economic concepts and numbers make your head hurt, keep hitting F1, F2, F3 and tell everyone what a 'leet piwate you are.
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 20:38:00 -
[119] - Quote
random self destruction of any ship at random time without insurance pay-out.
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