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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:06:00 -
[1]
The Breacher û The Forgotten Frigate
Ok, first things first, this is to show why the Breacher is weak and how it could be fixed to make it a useable ship while not upsetting the balance between it and the other missile frigates.
Slot Comparison
Breacher: Tier 3 ship with 4 highs, 2 mids and 2 lows. 8 total
3 Missile and 1 Turret hardpoints
Kestrel: Tier 3 ship with 4 highs, 3 mids and 2 lows. 9 total
4 Missile hard points.
The Rifter has 2 more slots than the Breacher, the Merlin has 1 more than the Kestrel.
Bringing Gallente in for a moment, the Tristan has 10 slots + 5m3 drone bay and the Incursus has 8 slots and 5m3 drone bay.
Looking at AmarrÆs tier 3 frigates it has a missile ship to! But unlike the Breacher also had 9 slots like the Kestrel. ItÆs other tier 3 frigate has 10 slots.
Damage Comparison
Graph comparing damage using T2 turrets/launchers.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0606/missilefrigates.JPG
Using T2 ammo
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0606/missilefrigatet2ammo.JPG
I also didn't use damage mods as obviously the Kestrel will get a greater increase as all 4 of its weapons are effected by a BCU where the Breacher only has 3 of its weapons effected.
As you can see the damage is comparable with the Kestrel, but what isnÆt shown is tracking, the damage of the Breacher more so than the Inquisitor is worse due to the bad tracking of arty and ACÆs which with the higher speed and agility of the ship compounds the problem.
I think most people would use a small nos in the turret slots which lowers the damage a lot below the Kestrel, somewhere to put the extra cap would be nice for the Breacher since the Inquisitor can use it on a small rep while also fitting extra hp and resistances which the Breacher can not. Of course the Kestrel could also fit a small NOS but IÆm not sure who would do that..
IÆm not asking for the damage of the Breacher to be better than the Kestrel or Inquisito, it is the slot layout that is the problem, when the Rifter got its deserved boosts the Breacher was forgotten and left behind.
Comparison between Rifter and Breacher.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0606/riftervsbreacher.JPG
Breacher is a better ranged ship but rifter is better in close where it is also quicker, more agile and smaller. Nothing I propose in this post will make the Breacher better than the Rifter or Kestrel, it will however make it a good and more viable ship.
Fitting
Breacher: Tier 3 ship with 4 highs, 2 mids and 2 lows. 8 total.
3 Missile and 1 Turret hardpoint.
31 PG with max fitting gives 38.75 PG
135 CPU with max fitting gives 168.75 CPU
Kestrel: Tier 3 ship with 4 highs, 3 mids and 2 lows. 9 total.
4 Missile hardpoints.
30 PG with max fitting gives 37 PG
150 CPU with max fitting gives 187.5 CPU
Inquisitor: Tier 3 ship with 4 highs, 2 mids and 3 lows. 9 total.
3 Missile and 1 Turret hardpoint.
32 PG with max fitting gives 40 PG
125 CPU with max fitting gives 156.25 CPU
The Breacher is the middle ground on fitting, but how on earth is it meant to use all that CPU? All the fittings I try along with setups posted by fellow lovers of the rust run out of PG well before CPU.
So after fitting weapons you have something like:
Breacher: 26.15 PG - 126 CPU 2 mids and 2 lows
Kestrel: 23.1 PG û 136.5 CPU 3 mids and 2 lows
Inquisitor: 22.9 PG û 112 CPU 2 mids and 3 lows
The Kestrel has enough CPU to fit all its mids with either a web + scram + shield tank (extender) and lows with damage mod or the plate Kestrel to use the extra mid for whatever you want.
The Inquisitor can fit scram, web, 200mm plate, EANM and small armour rep or a BCU instead of the EANM or even MAPC to fit a 400mm plate (leave the best setup for the Amarr scum to do, they have options at least). Or if propulsion is wanted then it can even fit a MWD with 200mm armour and have 2 more lows to use to tank.
...continued below...
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:07:00 -
[2]
Now the Breacherà. 2 mids and 2 lows, well mids have to go to at least a scrambler. So 1 mid and 2 lows with 25.15PG and 96 CPUà maybe MWD then you can just get a 200mm plate and have 0.15pg left so ermmm nanofibre ? Could go with no defence at all and fit BCUs but then the Inquisitor or Kestrel both do that better with Kestrel having more missiles affected by BCU and the Inquisitor able to fit BCU + tank or all BCU.
What the Breacher gets for not being able to tankà
Before everyone screams but its so fast, agile and small sig! ThatÆs its tank!
How much speed and agility does it actually get over the other missile ships?
Breacher: 300m/s and 1450000 mass with 41m Sig
Kestrel: 260m/s and 1700000 mass with 47m Sig
Inquisitor: 270m/s and 1500000 mass with 43m Sig
(Using base ship stats since this isnÆt a fitting thing and skills will affect the stats the same and the actual Agility factor is the same, but mass is different to affect the handling)
So its not that much smaller or more agile than the Inquisitor which can also do a good frigate armour tank.
Kestrel has 30 more shield HP, Inquisitor has nearly 90 more armour HP, thatÆs before skills increase those differences.
Kestrel has greater damage potential, along with any BCUÆs fitted giving a bigger boost to damage. It has 3 mids for tackling + propulsion or its tackling + tank + BCU. ThatÆs a fair compromise in my book, the Breacher and Inquisitor canÆt touch it when standard launcher setups come into play.
To maximise the speed advantage the Breacher needs to fit a AB or MWD which means no web or no scrambler, when using rockets this means you could get webbed and well, with no tank and no speed your dead quicker than either the Kestrel or Inquisitor. ItÆs an acceptable risk if you have the option of webbing the target yourself or have some sort of tank which the Kestrel and Inquisitor do.
Compare this to the Rifter which is 20m/s quicker, 6m smaller sig, 350000 less mass, 30 more HP in shields and armour with 60 more in structure the Breacher is just a big slow ship in comparison with low HP and next to no tank.
How To Boost the Breacher.
This is the thing that has puzzled me the most, I am in no doubt that it requires a boost but how to do it.
A MUST HAVE CHANGE!
At the minute it isnÆt a true minmatar ship in my eyes, its to heavy and big without the slots to do anything about it. The Rifter is a great frigate and has two more slots than it making the Breacher a ultra-specialised ship and with no cruiser with missile bonus its not even a good starting path to a Typhoon which is the most agile and quick BS. Make the Breacher a good missile ship in the style of a Minmatar ship, make it a GOOD alternative to the Rifter which it is not at the minute except for laughs and giggles. Why is the frigate missile ship not also quick and agile compared to ship of its own tier? It doesnÆt even have the slots to tank its big slow ass.
IÆm working on the Belly post to with the aim of making the Breacher -> Belly -> Typhoon path a possible path of training where at the minute there is only Rifter -> Rupture/Stabber -> Tempest.
This change isnÆt really an option in my eyes, it is a must:
Lower its mass and sig and up its speed closer to the other Minmatar ships.
At the minute its as heavy as a Merlin and only 50000 less than the Amarr Inquisitor, so how can people expect it to avoid taking damage? It canÆt use its extra speed in close orbit so the mass is the biggest problem.
Knock 250000 off and we can use that extra speed more in orbits.
Lower sig by 3m to reduce damage taken as 38m is just below the size of small turrets of 40m, that way it is getting its sig advantage over other frigates. Of course against rocket frigates that sig wonÆt matter which places extra emphasis on the speed/agility as the Kestrel and Inquisitor can both tank better.
...continued below...
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:08:00 -
[3]
...finally...
If it gets hit it will still hurt, and if it gets webbed, well thatÆs death to all Frigates, it will just go pop a few seconds sooner.
Other additional changes I would like to see:
Change 2: Give it another low slot
It can then be used for a MAPC leaving 2 slots to tank with, or if you donÆt want to fit a AB you can use all 3 lows to tank.
This might sound similar to the Inquisitor since it is the same slot layout but the extra HP that ship has in armour over the Breacher should balance out with the speed/agility difference.
Change 3: Give it another missile slot.
Avoid the problem of AC+Arty tracking if its meant to avoid damage at least let it give out all of its damage potential, the Kestrel and Inquisitor can tank better so making it have the same damage as a Kestrel would not be bad for balance. Yes CaldariÆs will say they are the missile specialists so should do the most damage but Minmatar have to use everything so if the "specilised" and "missiles are ours" came into everything Minmatar would be the worst at everything which is hardely balanced. Caldari are also the shield specialists along with the Kestrels extra mid slot to do that so its tank will be better than the Breacher while also remaining very different ships.
The fitting of Rocket launcher and standard missile launcher is higher than for ACÆs or Arty so this will reduce PG and CPU more, making it harder to tank without a MAPC in one of its two low slots. CPU would now come into play a bit, as it would then not be possible to fit 2x BCU.
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Discuss.
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Frodo
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:13:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Frodo on 29/06/2006 19:13:57
OMFG you cant be serious Well hopefully youll get your breacher buff so you can pwnzor with em
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:13:00 -
[5]
/signed for everything.
Although I doubt we'll see a 4th launcher, the mass, sig and slots really need sorting out.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Locke Ateid
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:28:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Locke Ateid on 29/06/2006 19:29:29
The Breacher used to be better than the Kestral in a lot of ways back before the first missile changes. When frigates were able to use Cruise missiles, the Breacher had a speed and targeting range bonus. This made it a fast and deadly threat to everything in long range combat.
But when CCP decided that frigates would be limited to just rockets and light missiles, it was still better in a lot of ways. It was still extremely fast for a missile boat.
Then people began lobbying to get targeting range bonus changed to a ROF bonus, which it really needed because the range bonus was useless. That was about when Tuxford came around with his first balance between the races.
He granted everyones wish and gave it's ROF bonus, but like with everything he tries to 'balance' there is a satanic twist...he toke away it's speed bonus and basically turned it into a worthless frigate when compared to the Kestral.
I've never like him since...it started with the Breacher, it will end when TomB reclaims his stolen nerfbat.
P.S. Racial damage bonuses are not balanced when one side gets less missile slots then another, especial when it's EM damage.
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Elaine Threepwood
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:29:00 -
[7]
Mostly signed. I'd be happy with just lower mass, although an extra (low or mid) slot wouldn't go amiss... Definitely doesn't need a 4th launcher though, there's no reason for it to have more launchers than a crow.
Team Minmatar forums |
Ysolde Xen
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:49:00 -
[8]
/signed on the lowered mass and increased agility speed
It definitely needs it. More than additional slots or hardpoints if it comes to it.
Lovely little ship, shame it's just not worth using in favour of, well, anything else really atm.
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It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong. |
R31D
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Posted - 2006.06.29 19:52:00 -
[9]
/signed
If the Breacher was a bit less heavy and a bit faster it'd be a pretty useful ship, but still not out-do the Rifter at brute strength tasks
Free bumpage for all |
Cohkka
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Posted - 2006.06.29 20:07:00 -
[10]
It's inferior to the Rifter in any way due to lack of med and low slots. It should recieve at least one med or low.
Didn't fly it for a looong time so I dunno about the mass.
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
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Weirda
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Posted - 2006.06.29 20:38:00 -
[11]
pretty much spot on.
weirda have different preferences for breacher change, but probably any change would be for better.
More Cap
you have like 2 bars with max cap skill + mwd...
More Grid
have also always saw it as more of a 'long range' missile spammer which it haven't had the grid to do since RMR. if you need to get inside web range on this ship, you are dead. it is a piece of scaffold with engine ffs!
would most prefer +1 mid on there if it only get one slot, but it is tier 3 frig and currently have 2 less slot then rifter... could really do with 4/4/2 or 4/3/3... hell, even if you took away that last high slot to give it more slot in mid and low that wouldn't be amiss (IWHO).
either way, have been thinking of this frigate for long time (it used to be one of favourite), and am glad someone took initiave to write a great post on it! 
__
Weirda
Join QOTSA Now |
Insomnium
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Posted - 2006.06.29 20:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Insomnium on 29/06/2006 20:54:36
/signed
Gosh I love my little Breacher. Although it just can't really compare to the Kestrel at times, the thought of flying around this little heap of scrap metal while spewing death unto your enemies brings smiles to my face.
Boost the Breacher!
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If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward |
Chief Seattle
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Posted - 2006.06.29 21:13:00 -
[13]
/signed breacher really needs an overhaul
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Montero
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Posted - 2006.06.29 22:06:00 -
[14]
/signed.
an increase in mass and drop is speed would make it usable, and an extra slot (i'd prefer low) would make it a good and usefull ship.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2006.06.29 23:16:00 -
[15]
Breacher has the same slot load out as the pre buff Rifter. To stay in-line with other frigates it MUST HAVE another slot. At the moment, it simply has less slots for its class than every other ship in the game. For absolutely no reason.
And faster and lighter. Dont need an hp boost of any description, would kinda spoil it. Its not meant to tank at all, it is, after all, a load of scaffold poles with an engine at one end and some launchers at tho other.
And is also the coolest looking ship in the game and deserves to be as good as its class counterparts.
Basically
/ signed
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voidvim
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Posted - 2006.06.29 23:16:00 -
[16]
/signed
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Leshrac Shepherd
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Posted - 2006.06.30 01:20:00 -
[17]
It is indeed unimpressing.
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Mr Monk
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Posted - 2006.06.30 03:42:00 -
[18]
Yes pls
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:18:00 -
[19]
bump for teh breacher
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Ysolde Xen
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Posted - 2006.07.01 09:19:00 -
[20]
/signed again
So good I signed it twice 
But seriously, with the survivability of a Probe, it's not the kind of ship that is sensible to take into combat unless it can live long enough to do its job by other means. Whilst its balsawood and tinfoil design that means it's never going to be a tank is fine, it's inability to evade damage through speed and agility just isn't good enough to even remotely balance. A few more CPU wouldn't hurt the ship either...
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It's not a crap ship, you're just flying it all wrong. |
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Natachia
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Posted - 2006.07.01 09:36:00 -
[21]
/signed
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madaluap
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Posted - 2006.07.01 10:47:00 -
[22]
Yep /signed
lower mass, more cap
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d'hofren
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Posted - 2006.07.03 09:47:00 -
[23]
I used to build and sell breachers back when I was a little guy. The bottom fell out of the market the very day the speed bonus was taken away.
I would like to see an extra mid and a mass decrease.
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Galactic Exploration and Mining - Web and T II Shop
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Varis
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Posted - 2006.07.03 10:03:00 -
[24]
Have to agree - i love the breacher.
I did the Breacher - Belli - Typhoon path already :) underpowered the whole way along.
All it needs is to bring back its great speed - make it much faster and lighter so it can tank by using speed!. As to the slot layout, i'd prefer an extra low to wack in a MAPC, but honesty anything is good...
Let me use my breacher again! The rifter out classes it in every way, which is a shame as the breacher is suppoed to be the other tier3 minnie frigate.
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McTaggart
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Posted - 2006.07.03 11:56:00 -
[25]
If you're Gallente you've got an Incursus or a Tristan.
If you're Caldari you've got a Kessie or a Merlin.
If you're Amarr you've got the Punisher or the Inquisitor.
For Minmatar, you've only got a Rifter.
/signed.
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Deren Thaldrel
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Posted - 2006.07.04 05:00:00 -
[26]
/signed
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arbitrary
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Posted - 2006.07.04 05:19:00 -
[27]
/signed.
___
Arbi all I want is for you to smile. |
Mr Fenris
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Posted - 2006.07.04 05:23:00 -
[28]
Agreed, is one of my fav frigs. 1 more low, lighter, faster.
Thx
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.07.04 07:17:00 -
[29]
/signed
Team Minmatar |
Daos Leghki
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Posted - 2006.07.04 07:18:00 -
[30]
Well, the Inqui is kinda a piece of crap as well, but at least it has the advantage of surprising all the caldari pilots as their shields melt
/signed
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