Im drunk from shock, after seeing a quote of 140b isk to up a chimera to me 10 I effectively said "well eve indy, it was fun". two of my 3 accounts were R+D/manufacturing. I will be retiring them and removing fuel from posses. The billion isk clothing line was funny, I laughed... This however is on a scale that makes the clothing line look like a grain of sand.

profit there is for the rest of us

Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.

Why would you RnD a chimera to Me 10?

Anyhow, the more incompetent producers quit, the more profit there is for the rest of us

What about production costs, i am hearing a lot of grumbling about them?

The cost scaling is going to be relatively volatile for a few days at least, we expect things to balance out after a bit of time.

If you are determined to build right in close to a busy trade hub however, you should expect to have expensive install costs.

Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.

Didn't you seed the algorithms with past build stats?

The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.

The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.

If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.

It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility.

The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.

Is this in an box station or a pos?

Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.

Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.

Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing?

It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too.

Funny. I did a bunch of invention and manufacturing yesterday. Spent maybe 3-4 million across 6 characters.

Depends where you are.

(POS are cheaper, as they don't have the 10% tax on top of the install cost)

Out of curiosity, has this been announced anywhere other than some random S&I Thread? I am seeing a disturbing trend of CCP devs dropping major bombs like this in very informal fashion which results in lots of people not knowing about it.

Good communication is important.

to get the same, a regular 50% station.

To get more would be a POS or outpost. (52% in high, 54% in other pos. Minnie outposts can hit 60% base)

CCP Greyscale mentioned in another S&I thread that the install cost show up differently depending on whether you and the BP in question are in a location with the right facility or no. If the BP is somewhere you can't install the job, the install costs come back astronomically high, but they're fine once you put it in the facility.

Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.

No, job cost calculation is a joke right now, even when the blueprint is in the right facility^^
I currently paused all production because of those totally skewed job cost index values. My full throughput is able to reach about 100 T2 medium ship hulls per day. Applying the current spread of install costs in a POS for said types I get a possible range of 80k ISK in some backwater lowesec system that nobody ever visits some 20 jumps away from everything up to the 10m ISK in every system (including my POS locations) that has at least a handful of other jobs already running. So in other words, the ****-up their algorithm produces would make me waste a billion ISK per day. And that I am not inclined to play along with until it gets fixed.

please continue to throw your toys off the pram so i can jack up my margins on t2 ships even more

We discovered and fixed it yesterday. It is in the known issues thread and todays patch notes:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360020
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-crius

You don't lose out on much if you max your skill use an intensive array and plug in 4% implant

I really feel bad for anyone trying to play the game while everything "settles in". Myself like a lot of other industrialists can't be bothered to produce anything while everything

Stop whining. Someone will write an out of game tool to calculate it all for you. That someone won't be employed by CCP.

Love the constructive input there. Keep up the good tro--- I mean work.

.....and here comes the goons forum warriors to fart in every indy thread popping. What took you so long ?

The Skills in question are all 5 bar the respective Ore Specifics skills. (and Faction Station Standings to the required amount) Even with those skills to 5 the gap from what is mined and what is left is still too big. The nerf to Scrapmetal Processing was needed and accepted as being too good for what it did but Regular Ore and Ice would have been fine with a 15% wastage factor.

As it stands the will to mine for personal production has gone out of these players sails as they will have to mine significantly more to maintain the same averages. Not everyone has the ways and means to maintain a POS or have access to a Outpost to get those related bonuses.

Don't look at what percentage of the minerals you're getting out of the ore, look at the actual amount of minerals you're getting out of the ore.

You realize that ore content went up too, right? With perfect skills, a 4% implant, and any refining facility above 50%, you'll get more minerals from refining ore now than you did before Crius.

That being said, there is better refining in low and null, but really, duh, risk vs. reward. Those guys risk life and limb all the time (hahahahaha) so their refining absolutely should be better.

Even in hisec there's "better" refining. The newly revamped Refinery Array is anchorable in hisec and offers 52% base refine. If you do a large enough volume of refining, that 2% would put a good dent in, if not completely cover, POS fuel costs.

But, again, risk vs reward. A hisec POS risks getting wardecced, but it's safer than a losec POS or a nullsec outpost.

Yup. It's a way better risk vs. reward model than what we used to have. Before it was "Oh you war dec'd me to attack my research POS? trololololol what a waste of your money."

I've run some manufacturing jobs, and haven't personally seen any of the bugged 150b ISK job costs in high sec. What annoyed me about these changes is essentially the MASSIVE nerf to scrapmetal reprocessing (I used to get a large chunk of my minerals from repro'ing mission loot). I'm also still wondering about the whole Teams thing, given that there is ZERO documentation on how it works (apparently the Teams are for specialized jobs, and not *all* manufacturing runs).

I'm also wondering about the "auction" thing to get Teams to your system: setting aside the increased cost to manufacture in NPC stations (also a nerf), how much does winning an "auction" actually add to the cost of the specialized jobs you want to run? Yeah, if you want to run constant lines for the 30 days (is it even 30 days?), the costs even out, but what about if you don't? Don't bid? Don't take part in the Teams concept?

From what I gather at this point the Teams thing is only for those running CONSTANT lines focused on single classes of objects: combat drones, rigs, sub-capital hulls, etc. For everyone else all we see is increased production costs and no benefit whatsoever to the Teams feature?

On a whiney side-note, I really don't like the massive amount of real estate the new Industry window takes up. Cutesy graphics are fine the first time, but them that big blank space with a vibrating box in the center just gets annoying. I want to see jobs, installations, and am watching the Teams stuff to see what shakes out. I don't care about the cutesy graphics.

The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.

Does that mean you're going to refund everyone's install job cost from yesterday so it's in line with the new prices?

[
If you do the math and adjust the ratio from current reprocessing rates and batches to the former reprocessing rates and batches assuming you have level 4 in all ore processing skills, reprocessing 5, and reprocessing efficiency 5 you should notice about a 1% increase from the pre-patch. Sounds like refining is getting ahead slightly. Get level 5 in everything and you should see about a 2.5% increase from pre-patch. This is accounting from a 0.54x refinery.

If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.

It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility.

The skills though don't make any sense., because it says 3% per level at Reprocessing. But it doesn't actually give 3%.

Like my skills are low but for example. I have it at level 3 that is 9%. But what I actually get is more like 4.5% - minus the station tax.

50 x 1.09 that's not 9% more thats 4.5% more. = 54.5%

I don't know if it's suspose to be like that or not. I just thought it was strange.

The numbers add up though because for example if you have a 50% station. 1.09 = 54.5 with a 0.95 tax you end up with 51.7% which gets rounded to 52%

Unless it's just 3% less waste. Then I guess it makes sense. Since it's only half being wasted. :P

The skills though don't make any sense., because it says 3% per level at Reprocessing. But it doesn't actually give 3%.

Like my skills are low but for example. I have it at level 3 that is 9%. But what I actually get is more like 4.5% - minus the station tax.

50 x 1.09 that's not 9% more thats 4.5% more. = 54.5%

I don't know if it's suspose to be like that or not. I just thought it was strange.

The numbers add up though because for example if you have a 50% station. 1.09 = 54.5 with a 0.95 tax you end up with 51.7% which gets rounded to 52%

Unless it's just 3% less waste. Then I guess it makes sense. Since it's only half being wasted. :P

The Skills in question are all 5 bar the respective Ore Specifics skills. (and Faction Station Standings to the required amount) Even with those skills to 5 the gap from what is mined and what is left is still too big. The nerf to Scrapmetal Processing was needed and accepted as being too good for what it did but Regular Ore and Ice would have been fine with a 15% wastage factor.

As it stands the will to mine for personal production has gone out of these players sails as they will have to mine significantly more to maintain the same averages. Not everyone has the ways and means to maintain a POS or have access to a Outpost to get those related bonuses.

If you do the math and adjust the ratio from current reprocessing rates and batches to the former reprocessing rates and batches assuming you have level 4 in all ore processing skills, reprocessing 5, and reprocessing efficiency 5 you should notice about a 1% increase from the pre-patch. Sounds like refining is getting ahead slightly. Get level 5 in everything and you should see about a 2.5% increase from pre-patch. This is accounting from a 0.54x refinery.

The measure of this is they had a Large batch of Ore pre patch that was the right amount to build something large and for what ever reason it didn't get refined and now Post patch the numbers do not have enough minerals in that batch to cover what was needed.

Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing?

You're thinking about it wrong. It's not a "9% increase to the numbers" but a "9% increase in your overall yield". A jump from 50 to 59% refining in the display (which I think you're expecting to see?) is actually an 18% increase in yield.


Veldspar = 415 / refine (Base stats)
50% station, no tax, no skills => 415 * 0.5 = 207.5 (FLOOR to 207)
50% station, no tax, +9% Skills => 415 * 0.545 = 226.175 (FLOOR to 226)

That extra 19 trit per refine is an increase of 9.1% over "base".

I thought that's how it might be calculated. I wasn't sure though. I'm still a newb

I'm just one to do all the math so I can actually make profit. So it stood out to me lol. I see so many products on market where I know even with a 10% material on BPO that they are losing money and it makes me laugh. In anycase I see how this new industry is a bit better for new players. In general one of the most annoying things with the old system was every single copy station was full making you have to wait 30 days just to do a copy run that takes a few minutes. I know I could have went to lowsec station. But I'm not sure most new players would want to. I do like this aspect of the new system. Although I think some of the other issues will resolve themselves overtime. I don't plan on refining or building anything until I have maxed out my skills in refine, and got my current bpo's researched. About a day away from mining barge so I will be mining a ton of ore in the mean time and doing some PI. :)

Then leveling trading skills to get max profit. :D

I think from a vet player it's easy to say this won't make industry more accessible to new players. But personally I think it does. Having experienced both. I do like most of the new aspects of this system. I didn't like the manufacturing costs at first until I noticed I can save a ton of money by just going a few jumps to another station. So I can still make a profit even of T1 bpos if I choose the right BPOs

You're going to see a lot more stuff on market selling below material costs, since industry now requires no skill investment, and you even get little cute tooltips regarding the value. Before there was a hard lower limit on the market where items were bought up when they reached mineral value, but that is gone now (a mini profession)

I read somewhere in patch notes that refining would be a new profession, but nah. Gone is the specialized indy character, no more reasons to grind standings, no more use for spreadsheets and other stuff that made this aspect of the game challenging.

I see the same tools in almost all threads regarding this telling people to cry more tears, escrow their stuff and claim huehuehue-huge margins - Well, industry got dumbed down so much even they can figure it out now. An entire specialized career in eve removed. When all this slowly trickle down on the market and the whining ensues, we, the industrialists wont enjoy harvesting tears because we just shrugged and left.

But yeah, monetize more on the playstation generation, CCP

I do agree with you on the dumbing down. As fpr the rest in regards to the gaming mechanic's I don't know enough about the old way to comment. For me it was never a problem because I'm not lazy to do the math needed to figure out whats worth doing. I'm definitely not a PlayStation generation lol. Being 31.. I'm more of the Original Nintendo generation, and back in the day games were harder. I think it's more of instant gratification mentality. Wither it's typical of a certain generation or not. I don't know. But people these days want everything for less effort.

I do see both sides though to some extent, because you pay money for a game. You want to be able to enjoy it. Some people find enjoyment in different ways. By having elite weapons and ships for example. Others find it in other ways. It's not easy to please everyone in every situation. It's actually impossible.

No, paying for your own facilities will not save you the system's price hike. In fact it's much more economical to do as someone already said, move every couple of weeks to a system will a low indy index, NPC station to save you the effort of your own POS.

You're going to see a lot more stuff on market selling below material costs, since industry now requires no skill investment, and you even get little cute tooltips regarding the value. Before there was a hard lower limit on the market where items were bought up when they reached mineral value, but that is gone now (a mini profession)

I read somewhere in patch notes that refining would be a new profession, but nah. Gone is the specialized indy character, no more reasons to grind standings, no more use for spreadsheets and other stuff that made this aspect of the game challenging.

I see the same tools in almost all threads regarding this telling people to cry more tears, escrow their stuff and claim huehuehue-huge margins - Well, industry got dumbed down so much even they can figure it out now. An entire specialized career in eve removed. When all this slowly trickle down on the market and the whining ensues, we, the industrialists wont enjoy harvesting tears because we just shrugged and left.

But yeah, monetize more on the playstation generation, CCP

Good thing they made it easy for new players, it's all they'll have left.

I'm trying to encourage CCP to provide industrialists with the tools they need through the medium of sarcasm.

Hello fellow travellers Been playing eve now since 2004, love the game, member for a PVE/Industrial corp for the most part, 10 years in the game, and you think you've seen it all. Back in the day they nerfed Missiles, ah I remember when the Raven was so awesome, and then they nerfed NOS and Neuts, but again we as a people united and figured out new ways to counter both of these nerfs, and all other nerfs to hit new Eden, in the last 10 + years, but finally they nerfed Mining/Research/building/development, way to go guys, I want to put a different word in here if you know what I mean... I mean I should have seen this coming, what with CCP nerfing missions like Enemies Abound, and other such good mining worth missions, or when it became so easy to overpower a HULK, and then we all thought they'd fixed that but I still see Exhumers popping on a daily basis... I know that all these things were done because you wanted the average player to experience more things with the EVE universe, so Scanning, which had been subbed for such a long time became the forefront of the EVE game and its made the game for most more fun and exciting, all the while this was all going along, your Industrialist out there were running missions to pay for the harder minerals you needed to build Capital through Interceptor ships for the masses, because regardless how you look at the game, the common denominator is this is a Market and building backend game.
And now you've nerfed that part... I can accept certain things, you want people out of the security of the station, and using POSs and other self-made structures, but making users put all of their eggs in the unstable basket puts the entire system in jeopardy..
Different if you've done the foolish thing of flying all your ships and stuff to NULL to find that what was promised to you wasnGÇÖt there and you have to start over, thatGÇÖs one thing, but now it feels like you want us to do the same in hi sec or where ever, and because you had no internet for a week come back to find your POS in ruins and everything that youGÇÖve been working towards for the last XXX + years gone... and for what? I can even accept all of this, itGÇÖs the game dynamic, but why would you nerf reprocess/refine, whatGÇÖs this 50% BS, or in my case, max skills and i have 10.00 standings with the station that i am in and i get 55%, it used to be you got 50% with the basic refine skills and then, with working standings with the faction you were with this increased your reprocess/refine up to 99.5 or 100% depending if the station you were working with was base 25 or 50%. I get that some things might look good on paper for the average CCP / Capsular, and that certain parts of the market have been out of whack for a while now, but by pissing off the industrialist, who in my mind is the backbone and driving force of this game, and nerfing things that we industrialists have been striving towards, doesnGÇÖt make any senseGǪ unless the plan is that NPC stations are going to produce ships again, and not players, but I thought the driving force behind this game was the eventuality of players being able to build everything in the game no matter where it isGǪ
For example, the average player regardless if itGÇÖs a mission runner or player attacker, wants his ship and modules for the lowest price he can get them for, this new infrastructure adds so many hidden costs to the builder and provider of these ships, that the cost to the beginner or veteran player is going to prevent the risk takers to take those risksGǪ If the cost of the average Lv4 storyline mission runner, flying a Tengu T2 fitted was getting it for 3 to 400mill and now has to spend 5 to 600 mill to run a T1 fitted boat, and not getting all the stuff he needs its like not just hindering the system that we have all grown accustomed to and love but in my mind its killing itGǪ
Unless there are some new skills that you are going to release that will fix these crazy costs for research and development or, manufacturing and refining, but then, what was the point of players grinding missions to get Efficient standings with the likes of Amarr Navy, was it only to get LP, LP from Amarr corps alas is pretty lame, so what then was the point of players building up standings with faction corps if not to drop the charges for running jobs, renting and reprocessing/refining? Alas what is the point, IGÇÖm at a lossGǪ And in my mind, knowing that I can provide ships from the highly researched BPOs I have, but knowing I cant provide them to people as the cost associated has been overscaled so much, then what is the point, what would you have us do, all go into the fray, a mass war, PVPiers destroy everything and even themselves and not be able to afford replacement shipsGǪ?
I know itGÇÖs a bit of a rant but maybe someone here and can help me see the pointGǪ Ive not really touched base of the research and Dev part of things, but I ask you what was wrong with the previous way that indy was?