tbh, i have no idea why smaller ships fly faster in eve. Sure smaller ships are more manoeuvrable, naturally, but faster.. i have my reservation.

The bigger the ship, the more muscle it should technically have (within a gravity well).

compare any animal you like.

Big cats are faster than smaller cats.
Big dogs are faster than small dogs.
Bigger birds are faster than smaller birds.
Large flightless birds are faster than smaller flightless birds.

If you wanted to be pedantic mass is meaningless in space anyway - something the size of the moon, something the size of an ant.. is all relational. If anything you'll expect the engines on a providence to unleash more torque than that of a frigate - and if mass is meaningless, more torque on the engines, more thrust means higher top speed.

But this is EvE, where a spud gun does the same damage as a 3000 kt nuke.

I put it down to a 'wizard did it'

The Eve universe needs to be bigger not smaller...

Travel should be slower not faster.

Personally, I'm fine with the warp speed changes as they've been applied to sub-capitals. The problem I see is that that the other characteristics of CBCs and battleships should be changed to reflect their downsides. Poor tracking (at least in the battleships case,) inability to sig/speed tank, long lock times, and inability to dictate range should be balanced by endurance, DPS, and tank. In the case of CBCs and battleships I don't think that the strengths of the classes are good enough to balance the downsides. I'd rather see the warp speeds remain the same and other aspects of the classes be buffed to compensate.

Either way, something needs to be done. A buff to the skirmishing aspect of heavy ships, a buff to their raw combat capabilities, or a combination of both is in order. Just my .02 isk.

tbh, i have no idea why smaller ships fly faster in eve. Sure smaller ships are more manoeuvrable, naturally, but faster.. i have my reservation.

The bigger the ship, the more muscle it should technically have (within a gravity well).

compare any animal you like.

Big cats are faster than smaller cats.
Big dogs are faster than small dogs.
Bigger birds are faster than smaller birds.
Large flightless birds are faster than smaller flightless birds.

If you wanted to be pedantic mass is meaningless in space anyway - something the size of the moon, something the size of an ant.. is all relational. If anything you'll expect the engines on a providence to unleash more torque than that of a frigate - and if mass is meaningless, more torque on the engines, more thrust means higher top speed.

But this is EvE, where a spud gun does the same damage as a 3000 kt nuke.

I put it down to a 'wizard did it'

oo right.. then put a rabbit running against an hippo and see witch one wins... And no mass is NEVER irrelevant. Go to physics 101. F=M.a that uncorrelated to gravity. Mass is absolute until you get at subatomic level of at relativistic speed levels.

So many people in this thread not realising this is only really relevant in PvP and is a great shame that BS are basically left alone to die in that area (minus epic fleet warfare).

People could potentially live with the speed, if that speed brought worthy trade offs, but it just doesn't.

I can almost picture an image where it looks and feels kinda cool: that the battleships are slower and their arrival on grid represents some serious pain about to come in, with small ships darting about trying to finish a target and disengage before the big guns can respond.

However the reality is people just leave them at home because it's just not worth it. They are as ponderous as a woken giant, but about as threatening as a puffer fish. All show and no go.

oo right.. then put a rabbit running against an hippo and see witch one wins... And no mass is NEVER irrelevant. Go to physics 101. F=M.a that uncorrelated to gravity. Mass is absolute until you get at subatomic level of at relativistic speed levels.

My guess is that you are a miner.

Because only a miner would say "more tedium please!"

bigger engines means bigger thrust which means higher speed.

In space, a vacuum, zero gravity.. any object subjected to a constant thrust of 'x' will accelerate at 'y' speed. any object with 1n of thrust would reach a speed factor of 1 after a period of time and continue accelerating at a factor of 1 at the same rate. It will keep accelerating at a speed factor of 1 until an opposite force slows it or stops it.

A small vehicle, say car size, frigate size (whatever) would have a propulsion size unit limitation. it is reasonable to assume size to output, so something small would have a power plant limiting it to x thrust. In an example something the size of a frigate would have a relatively small power drive.

Something the size of a Fenrir would have a power drive considerably larger, so you can assume the engine capability of a Fenrir would output 100n, so therefore would be able to reach a speed factor of 100 the same time a small ship with 1n of thrust would reach a speed factor of 1.

In eve terms, a speed factor of 1 may be equivalent of 1 AU/s, and a speed factor of 100 is 100 AU/s.

In space, an object regardless of it's size will reach x speed if y force is applied to it with acceleration factors with mass and momentum, but it will absolutely reach x speed after a given time. Put 1n of thrust on a fenrir, or a magnate, they will traverse space at the same rate. A fenrir would be able to field much bigger, more powerful engines, therefore instead of 1n of thrust would have an output of 100n of thrust, obviously meaning it's capable of a speed factor of 100 in the same given time. 100x greater that of the frigate.

One thing to remember in space is that there is no drag, so in theory you'd need to exert thrust for half the journey and reverse thrust for the last half.. otherwise you'll find yourself over shooting your destination horribly. This 50 / 50 acceleration / deceleration applies to everything. It's probably possible to reach crazy speeds with continuous thrust, as you would be accelerating all the while your engines are engaged at whatever thrust is being output. It's counter-productive unless you just want to throw your ass into unknown space an an almost unfathomable velocity.

So how in EVE an object with a gigantic power plant with massive amounts of thrust is slower than a tiny object with a seriously smaller power plant is unknown. I have no explanation unless someone turns around and says, EVE space is actually water, and we're all flying submarines; in which case it all the physics start to become more understandable, and mass starts to influence drag, and therefore smaller pointy ships should go in theory go faster than pianos with engines.

.. and comparing a hippo to a rabbit isn't a valid comparison, it's not like for like, unless folks want to believe rabbits and hippo's are similar. In real life big things have bigger muscles, bigger bone structures that allow them to cover ground more quickly than their smaller counterparts. It's why someone who's 4ft'8 would never win a running race against Usain Bolt, there's lots of reasons why. Exception being birds, as they're all build differently and different species wrapped into the same 'family'. Huge birds grip currents much differently than smaller birds, and are designed to negotiate various factors generated by the earth. Although noted that one of the falcon species is the fastest known animal on the planet as it's learned to use earths gravity to reach almost terminal velocity. Alas doesn't apply to space faring antics.

But digression aside, either we're all 'flying' submarines, or simply "wizards did it and don't question it" rules apply.

bigger engines means bigger thrust which means higher speed.

In space, a vacuum, zero gravity.. any object subjected to a constant thrust of 'x' will accelerate at 'y' speed. any object with 1n of thrust would reach a speed factor of 1 after a period of time and continue accelerating at a factor of 1 at the same rate. It will keep accelerating at a speed factor of 1 until an opposite force slows it or stops it.

A small vehicle, say car size, frigate size (whatever) would have a propulsion size unit limitation. it is reasonable to assume size to output, so something small would have a power plant limiting it to x thrust. In an example something the size of a frigate would have a relatively small power drive.

Something the size of a Fenrir would have a power drive considerably larger, so you can assume the engine capability of a Fenrir would output 100n, so therefore would be able to reach a speed factor of 100 the same time a small ship with 1n of thrust would reach a speed factor of 1.

In eve terms, a speed factor of 1 may be equivalent of 1 AU/s, and a speed factor of 100 is 100 AU/s.

In space, an object regardless of it's size will reach x speed if y force is applied to it with acceleration factors with mass and momentum, but it will absolutely reach x speed after a given time. Put 1n of thrust on a fenrir, or a magnate, they will traverse space at the same rate. A fenrir would be able to field much bigger, more powerful engines, therefore instead of 1n of thrust would have an output of 100n of thrust, obviously meaning it's capable of a speed factor of 100 in the same given time. 100x greater that of the frigate.

One thing to remember in space is that there is no drag, so in theory you'd need to exert thrust for half the journey and reverse thrust for the last half.. otherwise you'll find yourself over shooting your destination horribly. This 50 / 50 acceleration / deceleration applies to everything. It's probably possible to reach crazy speeds with continuous thrust, as you would be accelerating all the while your engines are engaged at whatever thrust is being output. It's counter-productive unless you just want to throw your ass into unknown space an an almost unfathomable velocity.

So how in EVE an object with a gigantic power plant with massive amounts of thrust is slower than a tiny object with a seriously smaller power plant is unknown. I have no explanation unless someone turns around and says, EVE space is actually water, and we're all flying submarines; in which case it all the physics start to become more understandable, and mass starts to influence drag, and therefore smaller pointy ships should go in theory go faster than pianos with engines.



.. and comparing a hippo to a rabbit isn't a valid comparison, it's not like for like, unless folks want to believe rabbits and hippo's are similar. In real life big things have bigger muscles, bigger bone structures that allow them to cover ground more quickly than their smaller counterparts. It's why someone who's 4ft'8 would never win a running race against Usain Bolt, there's lots of reasons why. Exception being birds, as they're all build differently and different species wrapped into the same 'family'. Huge birds grip currents much differently than smaller birds, and are designed to negotiate various factors generated by the earth. Although noted that one of the falcon species is the fastest known animal on the planet as it's learned to use earths gravity to reach almost terminal velocity. Alas doesn't apply to space faring antics.

But digression aside, either we're all 'flying' submarines, or simply "wizards did it and don't question it" rules apply.

Keep the delta between frigs and BC/BS's sure, but in the name of all that is holy, inspire me to undock my smurf-blue Abbadon again...

In the initial iteration of the warp speed changes, frigates and interdictors warped even faster than they do now. The problem was that they were warping so fast they were essentially teleporting on grid, i.e. rather than the deceleration out of warp you see on TQ, there'd just suddenly be a dictor next to you.

So frigates can't really go any faster, but making BS/BC do so without speeding up frigates as well is effectively just negating the warp speed changes.

So many people in this thread not realising this is only really relevant in PvP and is a great shame that BS are basically left alone to die in that area (minus epic fleet warfare).

People could potentially live with the speed, if that speed brought worthy trade offs, but it just doensn't.

I can almost picture an image where it looks and feels kinda cool: that the battleships are slower and their arrival on grid represents some serious pain about to come in, with small ships darting about trying to finish a target and disengage before the big guns can respond.

However the reality is people just leave them at home because it's just not worth it. They are as ponderous as a woken giant, but about as threatening as a puffer fish. All show and no go.

Wait till the next big war 2au/s warp speed in a system that is say 120au from gate to gate so 1 min in travel time now add the 10% tidi so that's what close to 10 mins just in warp through 1 system never mind the X amount of systems to go before you reach the desto system.

The only effective way to get there with out the soul crushing lag and tidi is to get bridged there

(So much for fixing power projection)

bigger engines means bigger thrust which means higher speed.

In space, a vacuum, zero gravity.. any object subjected to a constant thrust of 'x' will accelerate at 'y' speed. any object with 1n of thrust would reach a speed factor of 1 after a period of time and continue accelerating at a factor of 1 at the same rate. It will keep accelerating at a speed factor of 1 until an opposite force slows it or stops it.

A small vehicle, say car size, frigate size (whatever) would have a propulsion size unit limitation. it is reasonable to assume size to output, so something small would have a power plant limiting it to x thrust. In an example something the size of a frigate would have a relatively small power drive.

Something the size of a Fenrir would have a power drive considerably larger, so you can assume the engine capability of a Fenrir would output 100n, so therefore would be able to reach a speed factor of 100 the same time a small ship with 1n of thrust would reach a speed factor of 1.

In eve terms, a speed factor of 1 may be equivalent of 1 AU/s, and a speed factor of 100 is 100 AU/s.

In space, an object regardless of it's size will reach x speed if y force is applied to it with acceleration factors with mass and momentum, but it will absolutely reach x speed after a given time. Put 1n of thrust on a fenrir, or a magnate, they will traverse space at the same rate. A fenrir would be able to field much bigger, more powerful engines, therefore instead of 1n of thrust would have an output of 100n of thrust, obviously meaning it's capable of a speed factor of 100 in the same given time. 100x greater that of the frigate.

One thing to remember in space is that there is no drag, so in theory you'd need to exert thrust for half the journey and reverse thrust for the last half.. otherwise you'll find yourself over shooting your destination horribly. This 50 / 50 acceleration / deceleration applies to everything. It's probably possible to reach crazy speeds with continuous thrust, as you would be accelerating all the while your engines are engaged at whatever thrust is being output. It's counter-productive unless you just want to throw your ass into unknown space an an almost unfathomable velocity.

So how in EVE an object with a gigantic power plant with massive amounts of thrust is slower than a tiny object with a seriously smaller power plant is unknown. I have no explanation unless someone turns around and says, EVE space is actually water, and we're all flying submarines; in which case it all the physics start to become more understandable, and mass starts to influence drag, and therefore smaller pointy ships should go in theory go faster than pianos with engines.



.. and comparing a hippo to a rabbit isn't a valid comparison, it's not like for like, unless folks want to believe rabbits and hippo's are similar. In real life big things have bigger muscles, bigger bone structures that allow them to cover ground more quickly than their smaller counterparts. It's why someone who's 4ft'8 would never win a running race against Usain Bolt, there's lots of reasons why. Exception being birds, as they're all build differently and different species wrapped into the same 'family'. Huge birds grip currents much differently than smaller birds, and are designed to negotiate various factors generated by the earth. Although noted that one of the falcon species is the fastest known animal on the planet as it's learned to use earths gravity to reach almost terminal velocity. Alas doesn't apply to space faring antics.

But digression aside, either we're all 'flying' submarines, or simply "wizards did it and don't question it" rules apply.

Try moving trough 0.0 alone with anything thats not a frigate/cloaky. Scouting doesnt work anymore, the system is empty
when you initiate warp and by the time you land at the exit gate a frigate gang made 3-5 jumps and its there before you.
No wonder all I see are stabbed/cloaked ships and frigates.

The problem is not battleshisp being slow. The problem was battleships being made effectively HALF as mobile as they used to be .. but without ANY compensation.

Battleships should ALL have received GENEROUS DPS, EHP and Capacitor buffs to compensate.

I would love battleships to remain very different from the small ships. Slow.. but with POWER to justify that slowness.

I would for START give 15% more damage 15% more EHP on all layers, about 20% more Capacitor , some 10-15% more lock range and some 30% more cargo hold.


Make battleships WORTH the time you take to move them.

Indeed, as I said, they dont have the trade offs against the slow.


Frankly I'd like to see BS get bonuses right down the weapon sizes (like how the rattlesnake does for its launchers).

So you can fit a point defence frigate murderer than can't fight big stuff, or a midsized anti-cruiser platform or the traditional anti-BS level weapons.

So their "effective" DPS increases yet without real power creep and at a trade of fitting options. Imagine a fully bonused RLML typhoon landing on a frigate gang - that's the battleship we'd all fear It should, however, remain balanced because it wouldn't be able to hurt cruisers very well much less anything bigger. It would be a start to clawback some of the drawbacks vs their slow speed.

Alternately, a flat EHP/DPS boost to compensate for NEEDING to add the warp speed kit might be an option, but I'm less enthused by that as it could have a lot of unintended consequences for when the speed isnt a factor. I prefer the more dynamic option.

Power creep has occurred with almost every other sub-capital class in the game. The only hulls that haven't seen power creep are battleships and CBCs. That's why they're not very good right now. :P

Personally, I think that a boost to the battleship's non mobility related stats is the way to go. It might seem a little heavy handed, but battleships saw their mobility more than cut in half, while frigates and destroyers were given much more mobility. Moreover, the combat power of most of the light ships was increased to some degree.

I think that rather than tamper with large size weapons, battleships should receive a 25% role bonus to all damage, that way attack battlecruisers are unaffected. All battleships should probably receive a 50% across the board bonus to EHP and a 100% bonus to their capacitor, drone bay and cargo bay.

There should be new lines of modules and plates as well, to help bridge the gap. The current large size reps should be balance towards CBCs, and a new line of extra large sized plates, cap boosters, and local reps should be introduced to go along with a battleship hull rebalance.

Well I am specifically trying to avoid it by letting them use downsized weapons. I.e. giving a mega bonuses to 250mm rails - I'm not talking about increased large weapon DPS.

What you'd get is a huge EHP ball of frigate/cruiser sized weapons. They would still have all the inherit battleship weaknesses - high sig, slow, poor locking times.

BUT it would allow them to bring DPS to the field on a given target size.

So, hypothetically, if you have a typhoon with RLML, yes - she will chew frigates up and spit them out, but would be extremely vulnerable to even a couple of cruisers, even moreso a bigger hull.

I don't think it is power creep so much as just a little more flexibility.

I can't see it affecting fleet doctrines but it'd be an interesting shakeup in the small gang meta. I don't realistically see everyone dropping to nothing but BS as a result - they are still too slow and cumbersome for that. Agility is still king and that will never change in small roams, but a few battleships warp speed fit with bonused downsized weapons might start popping up.

You could argue it is power creep further down the food chain, but I don't think it'd create much imbalance given their inherent weaknesses - even if a dozen such ships jump a cruiser gang - the cruisers will almost certainly be able to bail out, potentially taking a ship with them on the way.

It's just a concept, it should be refined but I like the idea of it. Perhaps we'd see people bringing one to swat tackle - then maybe others evolve to bring a regular battleship to swat the anti-tackle machine and so the evolution could continue.


More options are good. More options that (I dont believe) cause serious power shift and let us use underused things in PvP again is even better.


Edit: I suppose this would in essence turn them into "super heavy" battlecruisers. It'd be a nice option

My guess is that you are a miner.

Because only a miner would say "more tedium please!"

Power creep has occurred with almost every other sub-capital class in the game. The only hulls that haven't seen power creep are battleships and CBCs. That's why they're not very good right now. :P

Personally, I think that a boost to the battleship's non mobility related stats is the way to go. It might seem a little heavy handed, but battleships saw their mobility more than cut in half, while frigates and destroyers were given much more mobility. Moreover, the combat power of most of the light ships was increased to some degree.

I think that rather than tamper with large size weapons, battleships should receive a 25% role bonus to all damage, that way attack battlecruisers are unaffected. All battleships should probably receive a 50% across the board bonus to EHP and a 100% bonus to their capacitor, drone bay and cargo bay.

There should be new lines of modules and plates as well, to help bridge the gap. The current large size reps should be balance towards CBCs, and a new line of extra large sized plates, cap boosters, and local reps should be introduced to go along with a battleship hull rebalance.

Edit: I suppose this would in essence turn them into "super heavy" battlecruisers. It'd be a nice option

Having just taken forever to move a Domi a mere 10 systems in hisec yesterday, I can sympathize. Bigger ships should warp more slowly, but I think the change could stand to be rolled back just a smidge.

I predict CCP's response will be "fit warp speed modules/rigs to travel", but I say +1 anyways.

If only warp speed modules werent so goddamn bad,

Its not all that hard the get battleships up to cruiser speeds which is more than enough speed for roaming.

mind elaborating for the less experienced among us

Sadly the recent changes to ship warp speeds have made anything bigger than a cruiser a nightmare to fly. I wonder, did the person implementing these changes do it through a lens of assuming most battleships and larger would just move through cynos and bridges?

Consider:

- Cruisers: buff warp speed, to 3.3 AU, faction/pirate variants to 3.5 AU
- Battlecruisers: buff warp speed to 3.0 AU, faction/pirate variants to 3.3 AU
- Battleships: buff warp speed to to 2.7 AU, faction/pirate variants to 3.0 AU
- ....etc

Interceptors, frigates and AF's would still retain a huge mobility advantage, but at least now the bigger ships would be playable and fun to fly again.

F

does nobody adapt to changes anymore or something?

I agree, reverse it back, same number as before this patch.

tbh, i have no idea why smaller ships fly faster in eve. Sure smaller ships are more manoeuvrable, naturally, but faster.. i have my reservation.

The bigger the ship, the more muscle it should technically have (within a gravity well).

compare any animal you like.

Big cats are faster than smaller cats.
Big dogs are faster than small dogs.
Bigger birds are faster than smaller birds.
Large flightless birds are faster than smaller flightless birds.

If you wanted to be pedantic mass is meaningless in space anyway - something the size of the moon, something the size of an ant.. is all relational. If anything you'll expect the engines on a providence to unleash more torque than that of a frigate - and if mass is meaningless, more torque on the engines, more thrust means higher top speed.

But this is EvE, where a spud gun does the same damage as a 3000 kt nuke.

I put it down to a 'wizard did it'

does nobody adapt to changes anymore or something?

DPS and EHP buffs are great and all, but I will be damned if I am going to fly BC's or bigger through more than one gate now in dynamic ways. Sure people will bring them to timer-based fights etc, but when did we decide that regular flying of BC's and bigger should be so fricken HEINOUS??

F

We want adaptation. But we want something given to the now much slower ships to justify them more. Just sit and accept things like an impending doom is not adapting. Battleships are now only used seriously when they travel trough titan bridges. They need some tweaks to justify them for operations that move the traditional way.

I can now warp much faster than assault frigates. That's not a good idea.

Nothing stopping AF rigging for it too.

Surely a BS managing it isn't a problem then :)

They wont for the same reason they don't now. Its a bad idea and unnecessary.

I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.

All battleships can hit over 8au with your plan. The mach will get over 12au.

This is not a good idea.

All smaller ships can still go way faster if selfsame rigged/implanted. The delta in speeds remains, especially when you concede that align times would remain the same.

F

Battleships can afford to lose the rigs to do so unlike the smaller ships. Align times are also no issue given that I often beat cruisers into warp (and many frigates).

Also nerfing ascendancies/hyperspatials for literally everything else in the game is a ****** move to pull just because you don't want to make sacrifices when fitting your battleship.

I am yet to hear a good argument why BC's and BS's shouldn't be able to move around at base 2.7/3.0 au speeds to bring sexy back.

Battleships can afford to lose the rigs to do so unlike the smaller ships. Align times are also no issue given that I often beat cruisers into warp (and many frigates).

Also nerfing ascendancies/hyperspatials for literally everything else in the game is a ****** move to pull just because you don't want to make sacrifices when fitting your battleship.

Who are you to say battleships can afford to lose rigs compared to smaller ships, thats pretty arrogant.

I assure you the increased buffer from trimarks/slaves are of great importance to many BS pilots.

(I think perhaps you meant to say you were a clown-car pilot instead of a BS pilot?...)

Also, unless you are just trolling at this point (or willfully ignorant/dyslexic/etc), I clearly suggested hyperspatial/ascendancy nerfs to address your whiny 'BS's would go to fast' concerns, could be done on a mass basis, so how does that equate to 'nerfing literally everything'? Also, weren't people able to to move ships bigger than Cruisers around before ascendancy implants were available by your 'nothing to see here' mentality?...

I tried to follow your 'logic' dude, but its pretty clear you've entered the troll zone.

F

Some battleships can. Most can't. This issue only reinforces the current state where the Megathron is the only BS used for shooting things (as opposed to the Armageddon and Scorpion) that is worth flying at all. 8 lows and trivial fitting means it's easy to make up for the loss of rigs, you can't do this on Amarr BS (needs fitting/cap mods) or Minmatar BS. (doesn't have the slots to begin with)

One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.

One rig isn't going to do it. With implants it will, but the main advantage of battleships over HACs is cost. You don't want to start blinging them out with expensive implants, in that case you should just fly an Ishtar.

My guess is that you are a WoW player,

because only a WoW player wants instant gratification at the expense of the game

So, spending more time travelling between content is a good thing?

......wut......

Rigs and modules should be to make ships better at what they do, not un-frak a pre-frakked condition baked into base warp speeds of cruisers and larger since the warp-speed changes (screwup) recently implemented, that made these ships *suck* to fly now.

Tell me though, why we can't we buff the warp speeds as mentioned in the OP? Specifics please.

F

Because people like me would be getting intercepter like speeds out of things like the rattle.

HACs are more offensive and battleships are more defensive, the reason we see no battleships on the field is because nobody is actually having to play defense right now because of the nature of Sov warfare in Eve. Everything is just border skirmishes, and nobody is actually fighting over sov.

Are you saying an ascendancy implanted & rigged Rattlesnake would go faster than an ascendancy implanted & rigged Stiletto?

Also, isn't the answer to nerf ascendancy implants and hyperspatial rigs also as part of the proposed changes if you have an issue with new top-speeds of BS's?

Dont think the proposed changes must be done in a vacuum, of not also looking at ascendancies and hyperspatials. The differentials would remain.

F

The cepter would not be fitting them as it cannot affort to lose the rigs while the battleship can.

Nerfing implant options for everything else because you are impatient and dont want to make sacrifices when fitting a battleship is a terrible way to balance the game. CCP has decided that battleships will warp slower than smaller ships. We have the options to make them faster so use them.

a bs has a hard time losing the 5-10% cpu per rig with fitting one of those rigs