wasn't there a post about this yesterday were you to lazy to read through the recent post or a search come on.

now i will read what you have put up and come back


Edit: ok so i really like what a lot of these go with as a starting point however that BlOP Cloak needs to be scaled back no prop mods and 125% to speed 135% with the T2 i also feel the skill bonuses need to be geared to the E-war side 100% (leave the battle ship skill bonuses as is) this is to make sure they are fleet ships needing there cov/recon support to do the job and not be able to easily BLOP drop on there own

The propmod allowed undercloack would be a great feature and give to black ops a great taste and make them able to GTFO of the field more "easier" than before

and yes like you say , a dedicated bonuses for moving while cloacking are a wastefull bonuses if we can make a dedicated modules for black ops with the same bonuses than today

but i am more focused to give bonuses on DPS application than E-War bonuses , that role are dedicated to force recon
that's why i have make bonuses "under" that force recon have

the only major buff on Ewar i would appreciate will be on Widow , it's a pain to skill him with black ops 5 and ECM related skill at 5 to have .... the same bonuses than a fu***ing Falcon who cost 10X less and don't need enormous skill invest than the Widow


Really sorry , i didn't see you'r post , it's my "first" post in forums :p

they don't need DPS that is the role of the SBs and i don't mean give larger bonuses to the E-war i mean give a bonus to each of the E-war the races use instead of just one
Redeemer nuet/vamps and tracking disrups
Sin Scram/point and sensor damps
Panther TPs and webs
Widow this one can stay with the slight boost to ECM
But giving them a bunch of damage and damage application will remove the need of a support fleet to be bridged and it will instead become drop blap bounce with very little to counter it w/o knowing one was going to drop on you

and if you use a prop mod with the cloak it can't be a full boost maybe have the cloak also add mass so it takes time to get up to speed

So , in fact , you want to make Black ops like bigger Force Recon with BattleShip DPS and JumpDrive capability ?
You suggestion make them little to counter it too , i mean you'r remove too the need of a support fleet of Force Recon to fill E-War Support on the field

The Problem can be :

1)Why i will need to bridge my Rapier if this Panther can do the same work with insame amount of DPS and personal jump drive ?

2) Why i will need to field my Panther who cost XX Billions of ISK if a 200m ISK Rapier and 2x30M SB can do the same work ?



And saying that Bomber are the DPS on a Blops gank are not really true
yes they make high dps/alpha
but Torpedo have a poor poor pooooor application of his dps , the target need to be web/scram/paint if it is a target under the BC-Size

If i mix dps application and ewar capability it's because

1) yes , you have train a loooooong time to get on a blingbling BS , you can have good dps and he will apply it better than the lowest skill/isk than a SB
2) You will still need support ship because you have lowest ewar bonuses than force recon have


But sure at 100% that Blops need some love , some ewar capability and DPS application

The Only one Blops to have a DPS/Application are the Redeemer , that why he is the most popular blops today (and yes , great EHP too)
Would be cool to see all other blops have better DPS application , that will justify the high cost and the high skill required to fly it properly

I would like to see the black ops ships changed to give Titan-esqe boosts that only apply to covert ships.

First of all, remove all drones and drone bays to Black Ops, they are counter productive on cloaky ships.

Here is what I would go for in terms of bonuses to go with your recommendation on Black Ops Cloaking Device. I feel Black Ops should just be Glass Cannon as they have low tank, and recons should be bringing the EWAR, you put EWAR on Black Ops you obsolete Recons. Before you say this obsoletes Stealth Bombers, Bombers Primary Job is to BOMB.......

Redeemer (H8 / M4 / L7 : T6 / L0)

Amarr Battleship skill bonuses per level:
10% reduction in Large Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret rate of fire

Black Ops skill bonuses per level:
5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage
7.5% bonus Large Energy Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
-+ Can fit Black Ops Cloaking Device, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
-+ No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
-+ (25% or 50% to be decided) reduced Spool-Up time on Large Micro Jumpdrives

Widow (H7 / M8 / L4 : T0 / L6[+1])

Caldari Battleship skill bonuses per level:
10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo max velocity
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire

Black Ops skill bonuses per level:
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage
10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion radius

Role Bonus:
-+ Can fit Black Ops Cloaking Device, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
-+ No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
-+ (25% or 50% to be decided) reduced Spool-Up time on Large Micro Jumpdrives


Sin (H7 / M6 / L6 : T6[+2] / L0) [Change to a Megathron or Hyperion hull because Blasters]

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Large Hybrid falloff
5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret rate of Fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Large Hybrid damage
7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking

Role Bonus:
-+ Can fit Black Ops Cloaking Device, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
-+ No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
-+ (25% or 50% to be decided) reduced Spool-Up time on Large Micro Jumpdrives

Panther (H8 / M6[+1] / L5[-1] : T6[+1] / L0)

Minmatar Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage
5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire

Black Ops bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff
7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret tracking

Role Bonus:
-+ Can fit Black Ops Cloaking Device, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
-+ No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
-+ (25% or 50% to be decided) reduced Spool-Up time on Large Micro Jumpdrives

The 25% reduced Spool-Up would mean 6.75 second activation, 50% would be 4.5 second activation.

NO DRONES PLEASE, COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO CLOAKS

why no drones ? they are always usefull (light drones/ecm drones and sentry/heavy who gives slight dps boost )
Stratios are counter productive by using drones ? i don't think so
i don't understand you'r argument

but you'r rebalance seems good (that just make me sad to see the ecm bonuses on widow removed :/)

Drones are counter productive because while they are out you can't cloak, if your buddy has his out and you just in range of his orbiting drones yo still can't cloak, see my reasoning? Also if you gotta jump away in a hurry you will leave your drones behind because the cost of your ship is more important, so simply just get rid of the drones.

Yes drones on the Stratios is counter productive.

About the Widow, I have one, has no ecm moduels on it.... pure shield torpedo widow, more survivable, ecm widow is usually left on field to die and save the other blops.

An idea for a second tier of Black Ops could be the following.

[To Be Named Abaddon Hull] (H7 / M5 / L7 : T5 / L0)

Amarr Battleship skill bonuses per level:
10% remote Armor Repairer amount
10% remote Capacitor Transmitter amount

Black Ops skill bonuses per level:
10% reduced fuel requirements for bridging
40% remote Armor Repairer and capacitor transmitter range (25.2km Range for Repairs and 29.4km Range for Cap at level 5)

Role Bonus:
-+ Can fit Black Ops Cloaking Device, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
-+ No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
-+ (25% or 50% to be decided) reduced Spool-Up time on Large Micro Jumpdrives

[To Be Named Rokh Hull] (H7 / M7 / L5 : T0 / L5)

Caldari Battleship skill bonuses per level:
10% remote Shield Booster amount
10% remote Capacitor Transmitter amount

Black Ops skill bonuses per level:
10% reduced fuel requirements for bridging
40% remote Shield Booster and Capacitor Transmitter range (25.2km Range for Repairs and 29.4km Range for Cap at level 5)

Role Bonus:
-+ Can fit Black Ops Cloaking Device, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
-+ No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
-+ (25% or 50% to be decided) reduced Spool-Up time on Large Micro Jumpdrives

[To Be Named Hyperion Hull] (H6 / M6 / L7 : T5 / L0)

Gallente Battleship skill bonuses per level:
10% remote Armor Repairer amount
10% remote Tracking Computer effectiveness

Black Ops skill bonuses per level:
10% reduced fuel requirements for bridging
40% remote Armor Repairer and Tracking Computer range (25.2km Range for Repairs and 19.5km Range for Tracking Computer at level 5)

[To Be Named Maelstrom Hull] (H6 / M7 / L6 : T5 / L0)

Minmatar Battleship skill bonuses per level:
10% remote Shield Booster amount
10% remote Tracking Computer effectiveness

Black Ops skill bonuses per level:
10% reduced fuel requirements for bridging
40% remote Shield Booster and Tracking Computer range (25.2km Range for Repairs and 19.5km Range for Tracking Computer at level 5)

The 25% reduced Spool-Up would mean 6.75 second activation, 50% would be 4.5 second activation.

nanananan , black ops logi will be IMHO really too stronk and OP
black ops warfare don't need and don't must be like a regular fleet with cloaking capability

we have enough problems with regular power projection , don't make an other one with cloacky power projection with full advantage of cloak

Just make the second tier pure bonuses to like the following to make them more designed for bridging then.

[Racial] Battleship skill bonuses per level:
10% increased Isotope fuel bay
5% bonus to [Racial] weapon system damage

Black Ops skill bonuses per level:
10% reduced Isotope requirements for Covert Jump Portal Generator
10% increased Covert Jump Portal Generator bridge range

Role Bonus:
-+ Can fit Black Ops Cloaking Device, Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
-+ No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation
-+ (25% or 50% to be decided) reduced Spool-Up time on Large Micro Jumpdrives

Drones are counter productive because while they are out you can't cloak, if your buddy has his out and you just in range of his orbiting drones yo still can't cloak, see my reasoning? Also if you gotta jump away in a hurry you will leave your drones behind because the cost of your ship is more important, so simply just get rid of the drones.

Yes drones on the Stratios is counter productive.

About the Widow, I have one, has no ecm moduels on it.... pure shield torpedo widow, more survivable, ecm widow is usually left on field to die and save the other blops.

NO DRONES PLEASE, COUNTER PRODUCTIVE TO CLOAKS

Drones are counter productive because while they are out you can't cloak, if your buddy has his out and you just in range of his orbiting drones yo still can't cloak, see my reasoning? Also if you gotta jump away in a hurry you will leave your drones behind because the cost of your ship is more important, so simply just get rid of the drones.

Yes drones on the Stratios is counter productive.

About the Widow, I have one, has no ecm moduels on it.... pure shield torpedo widow, more survivable, ecm widow is usually left on field to die and save the other blops.

If your drones are out it is very likely you are also being targeted, so you won't be able to cloak anyway....
Removing drones os NOT the solution to any BO rebalance....

i really like the proposed changes you are sugesting. a little sceptical on the prop mods under cloak thing though. maby make the cloak alter max speed insted

also i would like to see black ops ships having the ability to reverse a bridge. IE

2 blackops ships
1 cyno ship (new type of cyno)

Covert assault cynosorual field generator- when active allows a blackopps abttleship to reverse a bridge to its starting point and opens a stable connection between the 2 points aslong as the CAC is active
cycle time 5min
not visible on overview (however activating ship and reverse bridging Bpos are visable on Dscan)
can be activated in high sec!!!!!!

cyno ship lights 'covert assault cynosorual field'
black ops ship 1 lights covert bridge
black ops ship 2 takes the bridge to cyno ship
black ops ship 2 lights covert bridge at the cyno ship and links to black ops ship 1

there is now a stable WH between the 2 Blackops ships thats any ship that is specificly designed to use a cloak this includes
covert ops frigates
stealth bombers
force recons
combat recons
black ops ships
transport ships (both hulls)
T3s (any hull configuration)
expedition frigates
SOE hulls
aliance tourni ships (the covert logistics one and its accompanying AF)

this would create a dynamic that allowed for a new way to move fleets in secret and compleatly shake up logistics

Good idea's. I have made a quete a few "Pls rebalance bo's" topics here since 2009. Some interesting links for you:

A old topic with lots of good idea's:
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1204416

Crowdsourcing results 2011:
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/July_2011_Prioritization_Crowdsourcing#Notes_on_Results
*Longer LY range and fuel usage reduction are recieved

I shall keep it short as my english takes too long to get writen perfectly.


I think there should be 2 tiers of BO. One pew pew other one support. Will give more options for the teamplay and solo/dual style
laser damage - neuts & tracking
drones damage - sd & point
missile damage - ecm & brigingbonus
projectiles damage - tp & web

Since NPC agro switches (changed in 2012) it is harder to drop solo, their ranking should be lower

I think switching hull to battlecruizer size or switching gun turret size from large to medium with extended bonuses (range, damage, falloff) will not be a bad idea.

Covert cloak is a tough one, maybe with a sec delay, like stratios. Mind that due the size of bo it is relay easy decloaking in bubbles with small ships.

The scan res penalty from cloaks should be removed and scanres should be raised to around 350.

The redeemer should be a bit more agile
The sin should get a bit more power output
The panther could use a better slot lay-out, its both possible armour & shield but doesnt exells in ether one
The Widow should become a armour ship or crazy no low slots at all but like 12 mids orso

A new experimental briging module should be invented. One that you can activate > select a constallation > jumps to a random system in that constallation with some extra risk. (risk as in visible bakon in system or something else)

So nuet bonus would be better served on a sin and you didnt cover the fact that the new fuel cost for jumping has crippled blops in the fact that they can only make 3 max range jumps before refueling its now expensive to drop them.

They need a role bonus to reduction to fuel cost per jump if they are to be viable for the wallet tbh id rather drop carriers now than blops.

So nuet bonus would be better served on a sin and you didnt cover the fact that the new fuel cost for jumping has crippled blops in the fact that they can only make 3 max range jumps before refueling its now expensive to drop them.

They need a role bonus to reduction to fuel cost per jump if they are to be viable for the wallet tbh id rather drop carriers now than blops.

+1 for this idea , i gonna add this into a new role bonuses

a -33% reduction consumption of isotope or a -50% would be great , and allow them to make more bridge/jump without refuelling , that exactly fill with clandestine manoeuvers


New Role Bonuses Added (-50% for the moment , lemme know if it is good or bad)

BlOps BS need the following things:
T2 resists
More fitting so they can fit reasonable DPS/tank without going with faction mods (Pretty much impossible to get a reasonable fit now without faction mods.)

Specifically each hull needs:
The Widow needs to lose the ECM bonuses and become a missile DPS ship.
The Sin needs to become purely hybrid or purely drone based. I would rather see drones personally.

They need the following bonuses on each ship:
BS skill:
5% capacitor recharge time (I personally like recharge time since you hit grid at 25% cap at best. Capacitor amount would work also.)
5-7.5% Damage (Not ROF)

BlOps skill:
5-7.5% Optimal/falloff range or missile velocity
5-7.5% tracking/explosion velocity

Role bonuses:
250% velocity when cloaked
Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

That's all BlOps BS need. Pretty quick and simple fix. I would love to see the bridging module actually become part of the cost to build instead of it being a separate module. You would get all the functionality of the Bridge module without having to try to fit another mod. Not a deal breaker if it doesn't happen.

It allows each part of the Covert Ops line to do what it needs to:
Stealth bombers do lots of DPS cheaply while only having frigate tank.
Recons lock down the target through jams, damps, Tracking disruption, neuts, and webs.
BlOps BS bring the hurt, but die just like any other BS when unsupported.
Covert haulers to haul/be bridged in with anything extra that is needed.

Why you ask?
BlOps should require a fleet of SBs, recons, and BlOps BS to achieve maximum efficiency. With your changes that turns BlOps BS into joint BS/recons you effectively reduce the need to have recons and SBs on the field. Each part of the BlOps fleet has a role. SBs are low SP cheap DPS, Recons are brought in to lock down the target, BlOps BS can bridge the fleet and jump in to apply lots of DPS. By doing what you propose and adding in recon bonuses to BlOps BS you destroy this balance and turn BlOPs fleet into "BlOps BS or GTFO." That is not good for this game.

Next, there is nothing wrong with how cloaking currently works on BlOps BS. You jump in, kill the target, MJD off and cloak. Then you align, decloak, warp a safe and recloak. Decloak and jump out. It works. It isn't broken. If anything you could update this by taking the velocity while cloaked bonus and moving it to a role bonus as suggested above to free up a skill bonus. No need for a new module like you propose.

this is not what BLOPS need for one if you want a DPS/tank BS look to marauders adding to max cap would still leave you at 25% when landing on grid but they don't need cap recharge either since any concomitant understands how to use cap boosters. finaly if you turn the widow into a missile boat it will become the least used BlOP as missiles just don't work well outside of struct bashing the ECM is what makes it so loved by most of its pilots

Of course. Because a marauder can jump to a BlOps cyno.

The purpose of adding in the cap recharge bonus would be to open up fitting choices and help correct for a weakness of BlOps BS. Yes, recharge time won't do anything about you being at 25% cap when you jump in. What it will do is make it so you can regen cap quicker so you can be at jump cap sooner. 25% cap recharge means you could fit a heavy cap booster to gain lots more cap quicker, or fit a smaller cap booster and free up fitting more more DPS or tank, or you could even be ballsy enough to fit no cap booster to free up the slot for something else. It opens up more choices.

If you think missiles don't work well in PvP you are clueless. The tracking formula for missiles excels in situations where the target is moving slowly and has a large signature. A web and a TP fit to a rapier or the Widow itself would make missiles track even better than before. Or if you were super worried about the tracking of your torps/CMs you could fit RHMLs. Leave the ECM to the falcon. There is a reason it is a specialized ECM ship that can be bridged by a BlOps BS.

exactly a marauder can't jump because if it could it would be op. and the weakness of it dropping in at 25% cap is there to balance all ships with jump drives

to be honest other then the sin i find the Blops to be in a very good place the only change would be a small reduction in base jump cost(just under cruis lvl) but as is the do there job very well

I think one thing that can help get more people out using Blops is to lower the covert cyno from lvl 5 to lvl 4 making it so newer groups of pilots don't need to get an alt and train it up or spend 30 for a skill that they would only use every now and then.

with this said i'm not overly fond of reducing skill requirements for things and this is just an idea. it also wouldn't help the BLOPS out when it comes to committing them to combat however it will make it easier for them to preform what is currently their primary role.

I have 4 accounts, all mains are BlOps trained and the Cyno 5 wasn't the 'burden'. Jump Portal Generator takes much longer but even with that addition, Black ops when compared to Marauder is far less daunting and people train Marauder.

My out of this world, crazy idea to 'balance' Black Ops?

- Give them 2 Bomb launchers with a cycle bonus of 25% or more per level of Black Ops.

Not only will it make them scary as hell, large scale manufacturing of bombs would see spikes in Zydrine and Megacyte prices. They are both used in bombs. Bombs come with a pre-nerf. You can't use them outside Null and if you plan to use them to structure bash, people in your fleet better be on the ball because bomb damage is FoF. It's a radical suggestion with a lot of consequences for anyone pretending they want to fly a Black Ops battleship but it would be an interesting change.

I'd think your issue would be from say the redeemers who may like their turrets more than most (imo redeemer fit and run right looks like fun times based on crews in the past liking them). My main blops would be widow so not getting overt complaints from me right away lol.

Can we get t2 launcher support as well? Had time to burn on a perc/will train a bit back so actually have these done. Nice for bombers to get that extra bomb in the stack. Be nice on widow to maybe free up the cargo a little if need be.

so , we have expect to see the change on covertops/recon/black ops ships classes in oceanus , but hehehe it seems that will be later :p

so , just a little bump

new cloacking device for blackops : black ops cloacking device
same things that before , just remove the scan resolution , and keep the velocity bonuses on this built-in cloacking device specific for black ops vessels
that allow new black ops related bonuses and new role bonuses by the removing of the 'old bonuses' related to cloacking device

come on guys , give feedback and idea :D

Now I'm going to pick apart some of your bonuses.

Why are you giving the Widow a better bonus then the Falcon, yet you give the Panther a lower bonus then the Rapier for their EWAR bonuses?

With that said, what about adding a role that allows their EWAR to be applied to ships that are normally immune to EWAR and also add BLOPs specific EWAR modules (Like a heavy dictors point) for the BLOPs.

This would differentiate their role on the battlefield from recons to one where they can apply their EWAR to supers, triaged carriers and bastioned marauders.

Black Ops are fine. They do not need any additional electronic warfare bonuses.