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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Alan Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
1
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Posted - 2014.08.27 11:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
There used to be a complete post here, then I clicked "post" and it was gone :( |
Alan Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
3
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Posted - 2014.08.27 11:44:14 -
[212] - Quote
There used to be a complete post here, then I clicked "post" and it was gone :(
EDIT: I compared two waves in scout sites to a heavy spawn upon warpin in a Nation Mining Colony (Vanguard site). Both scout site waves had over 1 million EHP, while the NMC had just over 600k EHP. If the Vylades are removed from this the mentioned waves still have between 400k and 600k EHP. Suggestion: Remove the kiting cruisers, bring more frigates. Thank you for your time.
EDIT2: Thanks Kendra Zane for mentioning going back and hoping my browser still had the text saved!
CCP RedDawn wrote:
We are aware of the Antem and Vylade orbit ranges and the jamming amounts that mess with the overall balance.
The re-balance is meant to simply bring them more in line with the risk vs reward of the higher-tiered sites.
Currently, Scout sites on TQ don't reward enough and are under-utilised.
These upcoming changes should alleviate this somewhat.
I did not see this reply. Anyways, gives me something new to comment on.
Currently, scout sites on TQ are still under-utilised. They will stay under-utilised, since you only need to add two logi's to a scout fleet and you can fly a non-efficient VG fleet which will make more than a scout fleet. Grinding through mountains of EHP is no fun, especially if one of your DPS ships is jammed out.
Let me compare a wave in a scout site to the highest EHP wave in vanguard sites. All Sansha information was taken from this site. The Vanguard site is a Nation Mining Colony with a heavy spawn on warpin (5 Romi's, one Mara, and some frigates);
5x Romi: -¦105.500 EHP/ship - 527.500 EHP
1x Mara: -¦29.500 EHP
Assorted frigates (Tama's, Eysturs): Let's go with 100k EHP, we're talking about a heavy spawn here and I'm trying to prove a point.
That gives us just over 650k EHP to grind through, which doesn't take us too long, since all these ships (except the Mara) are brawlers which will orbit at max 18 kilometers.
Now, let's take a look at a regular wave in one of the scout sites, Propaganda Cluster, third wave (information is probably incorrect, but if it's listed, it was there):
1x Lirsautton: No more than 20k EHP (don't have it written down here, also, what the hell
3x Arnon: 65.400 EHP/ship - 196.200 EHP
3x Vylade: 274.900 EHP/ship - 824.700 EHP
1x Antem: 87.700 EHP
1x Uitra: 132.000 EHP
1x Youl: I'll ignore this one, it's almost like it's made of paper
This brings us to a total of 1.260.600 EHP. Yes. That's pretty close to twice the EHP in a heavy first wave in a NMC, but... You have about half the DPS if you're going with spidertanking battleships, since one of your ships will be jammed out till the final Arnon drops. Also, all cruisers, except for the bomber, orbit at medium to long range, which makes it a pain to kill these ships.
Wait, that's not fair! This is an exception!
I present to you, the second wave of the Distress Beacon:
1x Lirsautton: Assume 20k EHP
4x Arnon: 65.400 EHP/ship, 261.600 EHP
2x Uitra: 132.000 EHP/ship, 264.000 EHP
2x Vylade: 274.900 EHP/ship, 549.800 EHP
1x Youl. Lol.
... for a total of 1.095.400 EHP. And again, all ships orbit at medium to long range, closest range is the Uitra, which orbits at 30 kilometers.
Ok, ok, we'll just remove the Vylades from the scout sites...
Propaganda Cluster, wave three: 435.900 EHP.
Distress Beacon, wave two: 545.600 EHP.
Both sites will still take ages. Again, I'd like to suggest using more frigates instead of high EHP kiting cruisers. Isn't the difficulty of incursions supposed to be scout>vanguard>assault>headquarters? |
Joe Neal
Koa Mai Hoku
Cult of War
1
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Posted - 2014.08.28 22:01:48 -
[213] - Quote
I am Betting after days two days they should be able to see the numbers and see that they should have just fixed what we told them before releasing it. reduce jams, payment should b slightly higher. make it to where they are decent to run but not as good as vg or assults. i mean it should just go in order. that should b easy for them. |
Alan Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
3
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Posted - 2014.08.29 15:40:05 -
[214] - Quote
Agreed. Replacing the Arnons with Niarja's and the Vylades with Romis would already help a lot (get the EHP down). Anyways, we'll see if we're listen at when the next release comes out  |
Joseph Neil Andven
Ultimate Legacy
0
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Posted - 2014.09.03 20:40:10 -
[215] - Quote
Any news if anything going to get modified in scouts yet CCP? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
23181
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Posted - 2014.09.04 18:02:48 -
[216] - Quote
there is the possibility this is exactly what was intended, to keep a full vanguard team busy.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Doc J
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP
The Marmite Collective
9
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Posted - 2014.09.19 17:27:19 -
[217] - Quote
Damn man - Distress Beacon way too much jamming, neuting and EHP for a 3 man gang.
Admitably, i've been practicing these on sisi solo but i have no idea how a small gang would defeat that much going on. |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
106
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Posted - 2014.09.23 12:38:36 -
[218] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:there is the possibility this is exactly what was intended, to keep a full vanguard team busy.
Well you actually can take the 5 ships, fly VGs with them(4+1) and do the VG sites just as fast for 3 times the payout. Overall the jamming, EHP and the requirement of sniper, or at least have medium range dps setups is ridiculous(not a single VG site needs that). Beside it being a wasted opportunity to give smaller hulls a playground and use a bit of movement and hacking/re spawns/multi objectives on grid to favour smaller hulls compared to larger ones they are not even worth running in a expensive VG setup, leave alone being a easier entry option for newer players or small corps. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
23181
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Posted - 2014.09.23 19:07:02 -
[219] - Quote
I think we're in agreement. it used to be that -no one- did scout sites, but now, when Vanguards aren't available, the expectation is that Vanguard teams will run them without something else to do (while maybe grumbling about it).
I might not understand the respawn sequence correctly, though. are there times when Scout sites are available when Vanguards are not?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
106
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Posted - 2014.09.24 08:28:12 -
[220] - Quote
While there will be always Vanguard sites, there can be a issue of to many fleets try to run them, reduce every system to 2-3 sites what requires a lot of waiting, switching the systems and contests. Another thing is that you need a capable VG contest FC, not only being experienced enough with contests on grid, but that can also predict the movement of other fleets, has a eye on the other fleets and free sites in the system and know a lot about fleet composition of the other fleets to know what site will be most likely free. This kind of FC is normally a fairly limited resource for most channels, since that skills have to be acquired by doing a lot of VGs under such conditions, what not every channel does and requires a lot more dedication and patience than you will see on most newer FCs. Normally this solves itself by people upgrading her VG fleets into AS or the big channels start HQ fleet, what draws enough people out. Another thing is that this is mostly limited to the 12-18.00 TZ when there are a lot of IS boxing fleets around(currently more than real player fleets most of the time), that take a break, do something else in eve or go afk after 18.00.
While it is exhausting to run VGs as FC under such conditions(because it requires a lot more scouting and good timing if you only have 5-6 dps on grid because your ability to contest with that is close to zero), Scout sites would only pay 30M a hour, I can't scale the fleet like in VG, because doing the sites with only 1-2 dps would take forever by the jamming and I can't put 1-2 more people on grid with literally the same ISK/h to upgrade to AS or split into 2 VG fleets once you have enough. Overall in its current form it isn't a alternative for channels, what I don't even think is so bad, because if it would it would fill up with IS Boxers fairly quick otherwise. However the site type is also not really useful to anybody else, it doesn't provide a option for new players or small corps, it doesn't provide a playground for smaller hulls that are not likely to get on grid with most channels in bigger sites and what is rather sad in my opinion. |
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Rain6637
Team Evil
19772
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Posted - 2014.09.24 19:10:00 -
[221] - Quote
Yeah, so scout sites have swung from one extreme (worthless) to the other (too much trouble for the reward).
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
23181
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 19:10:08 -
[222] - Quote
Yeah, so scout sites have swung from one extreme (worthless) to another (too much trouble for the reward).
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
|
frommishj
Altus Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2014.09.29 04:44:40 -
[223] - Quote
Ok I am very disappointed in the new scout sites. Before they were too easy and you got nothing from them but now you get jammed no matter what. Making it useless. I have been working on many different fits on the test server but none work. I created a loki with 60 ladar strength and it was jammed the moment I entered the site. I was then permajammed till i decided to warp out. No one will run these sites because they are such a pain. In all honest CCP just needs to cut out the jams. Their health is enough to make sure not many people run them. The isk payout is still too low to care. In my opinion it was a waste of time changing the scout sites. |
Din'stalor Alaric
The Congregation
Cult of War
139
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Posted - 2014.10.21 23:42:51 -
[224] - Quote
so sad thay there hasnt been a response from ccp in a month on this subject =(
Solo 4 Life.1v1 always honored, flying without booster alt since Oct 2010. No ransoms honored even if offered :)
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company
Phoebe Freeport Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.11.20 23:04:35 -
[225] - Quote
I haven't posted a long reply for a while yet, so here we go. Grab yourself a drink before you continue reading.
tl;dr: Checked out scout sites, still broken.
After running a couple of HQ sites on my new incursion alt I decided to start a fleet with my own community, however, we didn't get enough people for a VG fleet, so, we decided to run a few scout sites, for science.
Fleet setup:
2x Artillery Machariel
1x Autocannon Machariel
1x Blaster Vindicator (refitted to railguns at some point, you'll understand when I tell you)
1x Railgun Tengu (joined later)
Employed tactic:
Warp to the beacon at zero, shoot everything in sight. Primary jams, then logi, then all others.
First site - Forward Reconnaissance Outpost:
At the warpin of our very first site we landed on a grid with the following NPCs:
988 dps, 503.2k EHP, 5 jammers, 3 logi
With almost 1k dps (988), over 500k EHP (503.2k) and the aforementioned EWAR on grid I decided to nope out.
Second site - Forward Reconnaissance Outpost:
Initial wave:
0 dps, 92.3k EHP, 1 jammer, 3 logi's
We quickly blapped the Niarja and spent a little more time on the spidertanking Maras (the RR is actually working now, yay?)
First reinforcement wave:
216 dps, 98.5k EHP, 2 jammers
This wave wasn't too hard either, our shortrange dps quickly killed the frigates while the snipers focused on the Antem.
Second reinforcement wave:
- 2 Niarjas
- 1 Jel
- 1 Antem
- 1 Arnon
- 1 Mara
380 dps, 139.4k EHP, 3 jammers, 1 logi
This wave wasn't too hard either, frigs died to our shortrange dps while the cruisers died to our snipers.
Third reinforcement wave:
- 2 Orkashu's
- 1 Jel
- 1 Eystur
- 2 Arnons
- 1 Antem
- 3 Maras
664 dps, 324.9k EHP, 4 jammers, 3 logi's
Same tactic as for the previous waves, however, the Maras were pretty efficient when it came to repping the other NPCs, which made it a lot harder to clear this wave.
Final wave:
- 1 Niarja
- 2 Orkashu's
- 2 Jels
- 2 Arnons
- 1 Antem
- 1 Mara
592 dps, 262.8k EHP, 5 jammers, 1 logi
The frigate jammers primaried the shortrange Machariel, but came within the web range of the Vindicator, o7 gf. The Arnons were again killed by the snipers.
Forward Reconnaissance Outpost time: About 20-30 minutes with 4 faction battleships and one logi. Most of the time was spent killing high EHP targets.
Third site - Propaganda Cluster:
Initial spawn:
496 dps, 212k EHP, 2 jammers, 2 logi's
We managed to outdamage the Mara reps and quickly dispatched of the jammers, the Maras were next and the Antem was our last target, but this is where the fun starts....
First reinforcement wave:
- 1 Romi
- 1 Antem
- 1 Jel
- 2 Vylades
- 4 Maras
536 dps, 864.5k EHP, 4 logi's, 2 squad boosters
For the people who do not know the Vylades yet, they are squad boosters that give a boost in shield resistances for all other incursion Sansha ships on grid. Combining this with 4 Maras that are remote repairing they are a real pain. Did I mention that a Vylade has 275k EHP?
Anyways, we primaried a Mara, got it down to half shields, then it caught reps. We had the shortrange DPS kill the Jel (we just alphaed it) and the Romi (which took them some more time, but the snipers forced the Maras to rep eachother). After that we all started shooting the same Mara in an attempt to break the reps on it. Queue 20 minutes of frustration after which it died to armor bleed, followed by another 7 minutes of killing a second Mara. The last two Maras weren't too hard and the Vylades just took some time. However, we were almost 30 minutes in the site already. In the meantime we had the Vindicator refit to railguns to help us kill the Maras, also, our railgu joined us at the beginning of this wave.
Second reinforcement wave:
- 1 Jel
- 2 Youls
- 1 Antem
- 3 Uitras
- 1 Vylade
- 1 Mara
860 dps, 885.6k EHP, 1 logi, 1 squad booster
Another wave with RR and a squad booster, however, this time there was (fortunately) just one Mara, which died quickly to our combined fire. The short range targets were taken out quickly as well, but the sniper battle dragged on for a few more minutes.
Third reinforcement wave:
1920 dps, 633k EHP
In a Vanguard site, named Nation Mining Colony, you will encounter 5 Romis every now and then in the initial spawn. However, here you will (usually) have two logi's to rep you and up to 10 dps ships to take out the incoming cruisers. We had one logi, two artillery Machariels, one autocannon Machariel and a railgun Vindicator (the railgu bailed, he felt his sanity was at risk). By this time we were already 36 minutes into the site, we were facing a lot of DPS so I made the call to leave.
Propaganda Cluster time: 36 minutes (incomplete). We had 1 logi, 4 faction battleships and a T3 cruiser. Most of the time was spent breaking the Maras. Next time I'd like to try an ECM Scorpion to break their spidertank.
[second post incoming] |
Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company
Phoebe Freeport Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.11.20 23:05:24 -
[226] - Quote
[reserved] |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:37:20 -
[227] - Quote
keep in mind they may be balancing for a player behavior, not the stats. and not tell you, in that classic CCP way.
excellent posts, though, that was fun to read.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company
Phoebe Freeport Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:44:05 -
[228] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:keep in mind they may be balancing for a player behavior, not the stats. and not tell you, in that classic CCP way.
excellent posts, though, that was fun to read.
Probably more fun to read than to be involved in. The Mara spidertank is real >.> I'd love to try a setup with a Scorpion though, but then you still have the issue of the EHP of the Sanshas.
Also, if they want to make incursions difficult again I'd love to see all levels of sites redone (I say this as a person who makes most of his ISK in incursions), because Vanguards and Headquarters are stupidly easy at the moment. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:44:54 -
[229] - Quote
the mara spider tank, was that something that was updated along with the sleeper RR AI?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company
Phoebe Freeport Republic
6
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Posted - 2014.11.20 23:46:37 -
[230] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:the mara spider tank, was that updated along with the sleeper RR AI?
I am not 100% sure, but I think it was. I've never seen Mara's repping anything until after the sleeper RR update. |
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Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box
Snuffed Out
784
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Posted - 2014.11.20 23:50:06 -
[231] - Quote
I cannot say that I am happy with their current state. So! We shall see what we can do.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
25246
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 00:12:20 -
[232] - Quote
****, so scout sites are even harder than when i ran through them last time... I might try again for kicks.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Andrew Jester
Origin.
Black Legion.
802
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Posted - 2014.11.21 01:26:28 -
[233] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:the mara spider tank, was that updated along with the sleeper RR AI?
I'm pretty sure the sleeper RR AI change was a side effect of fixing Maras.
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
25246
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Posted - 2014.11.21 02:31:55 -
[234] - Quote
hahaha I think you're right. I apologize.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company
Phoebe Freeport Republic
11
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Posted - 2014.11.21 08:31:49 -
[235] - Quote
For anybody who's interested, I'll be online today, just poke me on TQ, we can test some scout sites on singularity. Can't test on TQ because wardecs >.> |
Jedediah Arndtz
Jedediah Arndtz Corporation
34
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Posted - 2014.11.21 18:52:21 -
[236] - Quote
Alan Artemisa wrote:
stuff and things
Have you maybe tried nightmares? Or posting your fits? Cause arty machs kinda can't track **** for ****.
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company
Phoebe Freeport Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.11.21 19:13:13 -
[237] - Quote
Jedediah Arndtz wrote:Alan Artemisa wrote:
stuff and things
Have you maybe tried nightmares? Or posting your fits? Cause arty machs kinda can't track **** for ****.
Unfortunately, most of my community's Nightmare pilots have gone AWOL ;) Also, this character can fly one (and has one in Jita), but there's a slight issue with wardeccers :) |
Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box
Snuffed Out
787
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 22:41:22 -
[238] - Quote
To add onto this. Scout sites will be up for rebalance. It will not be until the first quarter of next year. But, its getting scheduled in.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company
Phoebe Freeport Republic
12
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Posted - 2014.11.22 10:10:37 -
[239] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:To add onto this. Scout sites will be up for rebalance. It will not be until the first quarter of next year. But, its getting scheduled in.
Thanks for telling us. Guess I'll run VG's and HQ's till then ;) |
Jack Rannoch
Rannoch Holdings
0
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Posted - 2014.11.22 15:44:39 -
[240] - Quote
Wow, thanks for informing us mate. Glad they're considering a re-balance. As for the other incursion sites: Yeah, maybe they should consider re-balancing VG's and HQ's as well or maybe even fixing them. Since the VG OTA's are still randomly eating your drones without any valid reason whatsoever.
o7 Cheers |
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