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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3395
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Posted - 2014.08.11 15:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey guys,
Hope you are all having a wonderful summer. We have some small, iterative, changes for Incursions that we are hoping to release with Hyperion and would love your feedback on them.
- Assault systems for Incursions will now never be just NCNs. At most NCNs can only take up 50% of the sites.
- The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered.
- Scout site rewards, and spawns, have been re-balanced.
The scout site changes are what we would really love some feedback on. We have attempted to up their reward (text changes in the client still to come) and up their difficulty.
The idea is that if you run these sites with 5 people they should be profitable to run, but not as profitable as Vanguards. While we have given them a balance pass, we think they probably need a bit more of a buff. Before we do that though we would love your feedback on how they are now.
When offering feedback on the scout sites if you could let us know what kind of fleet you ran it with and how long it was taking you to complete them broken down by which site you were running.
Hope you enjoy and thanks for the feedback guys. CCP SocksFour // Game Designer // @regnerba |
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CCP Bayesian
1143
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
First! EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3395
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Bayesian wrote:First!
And this here is a great example of how NOT to offer feedback. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
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Noriko Mai
1412
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:CCP Bayesian wrote:First! And this here is a great example of how NOT to offer feedback.
Fight! |
WeaponsSt
3
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
What are these new sites balanced for? The current meta of battleships and logi? Because if battleships can get into these sites that is what will be used.
Thanks for finally looking into these site btw. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
874
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
never done them .. after-all why would you ??
but that being said if they became a frigate only site that would be interesting ... without needing more than 1 logi aswell .. a little 5 on 5 frig action would be cool
Also who thought that incursions should be battleships trying too shoot frigates??? they should be shot .. also incursions are too profitable .. nerf the isk/LP rewards .. make it more casual and fun and varied Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3406
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
WeaponsSt wrote:What are these new sites balanced for? The current meta of battleships and logi? Because if battleships can get into these sites that is what will be used.
Thanks for finally looking into these site btw.
There is no restriction on ships. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
874
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:WeaponsSt wrote:What are these new sites balanced for? The current meta of battleships and logi? Because if battleships can get into these sites that is what will be used.
Thanks for finally looking into these site btw. There is no restriction on ships.
so nothing interesting here then ... pretty much the same as any other site then Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Otuk Andven
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:WeaponsSt wrote:What are these new sites balanced for? The current meta of battleships and logi? Because if battleships can get into these sites that is what will be used.
Thanks for finally looking into these site btw. There is no restriction on ships. so nothing interesting here then ... pretty much the same as any other site then
given that Vanguard meta is focused around battle cruisers and a few solo logi I suspect they'll be designed as an slightly easier version of this and good thing too. One of the major problem with incursions is the high requirements mean that only a few big groups do it. By creating these small sites you can get corps and other group coming in and trying it out without competing with the major group.
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Xercodo
Xovoni Astronautical Manufacturing and Engineering
3670
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:25:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you were to restrict BSes from entering then you might get the older players to stick with their VGs and Assaults and HQs
But just making them profitable is an awesome step for me :D The Drake is a Lie |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3409
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
I will try and hang out on Sisi with CCP FoxFour when i remember, but if you need any help testing this stuff best to give me a ping on twitter (@regnerba) or on IRC (Coldfront - [CCP]FoxFour]). CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
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PopplerRo
21
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote: ..The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered.
What range of a respawn cycle should be expected? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15605
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Posted - 2014.08.11 16:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
something to keep in mind about a 5-ship payout curve and difficulty: a two-logi comp has a single point of failure (jams), and incursions do that. going with three logi eats into DPS, and takes up 60% the 5-ship limit. you could go remote rep or high EHP, but both of those are simply not available in small T1 (and leaves T3 for EHP, or Battleships for deep wells of cap for RR).
It -can- be accomplished with logi T1 frigates or [logi T1] cruisers, but if you make the payout enticing, people will just roll them with the expensive stuff faster.
rather than increasing the payout, I think you should consider increasing the number of ships in the payout curve. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Xeent Tsool
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
I run lowsec incursions semi-regularly. All of these changes sound great.
EDIT: Rain6637, I've heard that scout sites are VERY easy and that the current payout is a joke. Any other change will be meaningless if the payout isn't increased. |
Max Kupaptakov
Prosperity Fighters CZECH Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:
The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered. .
Oh, thanks you guys. Now I will have to move 70jumps a day, in order to make ISK in two different incursion sites if "Comunity drama" strikes again. Now you gonna gave us only more MOMs to pop and more jump to make.
You are just encouraging ppl to rage popping more. Then ppl will spend more time on route then "enjoying the content". Better would be to extend time between grinding the influence and poping the mom. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15605
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Xeent Tsool wrote:I run lowsec incursions semi-regularly. All of these changes sound great.
EDIT: Rain6637, I've heard that scout sites are VERY easy and that the current payout is a joke. Any other change will be meaningless if the payout isn't increased. I'm aware. I just wanted to make the point that a 5 ship limit runs into the logi chain problem, at any difficulty. if they're going to alter the payout as an incentive, they should consider the number of ships and not just the per-ship figure. it strikes me as one of those matters of tradition that go unquestioned. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Kalen Tsero
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: I'm aware. I just wanted to make the point that a 5 ship limit runs into the logi chain problem, at any difficulty. if they're going to alter the payout as an incentive, they should consider the number of ships and not just the per-ship figure. it strikes me as one of those matters of tradition that go unquestioned.
Well what I'm getting from it is why do logi at all if it's balanced for 5 ships. Local reps at best is the only thing you may need. This to me sounds like it'll be no worse than the "The Blockade" or "When Worlds Collide" L4 missions. Which people run those solo.
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Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
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Posted - 2014.08.11 17:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Xeent Tsool wrote:I run lowsec incursions semi-regularly. All of these changes sound great.
EDIT: Rain6637, I've heard that scout sites are VERY easy and that the current payout is a joke. Any other change will be meaningless if the payout isn't increased. I'm aware. I just wanted to make the point that a 5 ship limit runs into the logi chain problem, at any difficulty. if they're going to alter the payout as an incentive, they should consider the number of ships and not just the per-ship figure. it strikes me as one of those matters of tradition that go unquestioned. first of all check if logis are really a requirement and if you can go by with just a spider group or even local repping ships. |
Tragot Gomndor
Rise of Cerberus Cerberus Unleashed
51
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
currently running distress beacon... setup: 2x remote armor nestors, 1x shield nightmare, crap fits
too much ecm, too high hitpoints, we are doing it for like 30min already and only at the second spawn, i hope there comes not another, warped out twice... maybe works when counteracting the ecm somehow, we have no eccm :D 0.0 = GOONS = SAAAMMMMEEE!!!!1111222 |
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
834
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
"Assault systems for Incursions will now never be just NCNs. At most NCNs can only take up 50% of the sites."
:yes: . |
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Mr Agathon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:WeaponsSt wrote:What are these new sites balanced for? The current meta of battleships and logi? Because if battleships can get into these sites that is what will be used.
Thanks for finally looking into these site btw. There is no restriction on ships. Why not restrict them to BC and under and have an introductory site that's profitable to run without billion isk battleships OR tens of millions of skillpoints. |
Tycho Naskingar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tragot Gomndor wrote:currently running distress beacon... setup: 2x remote armor nestors, 1x shield nightmare, crap fits
too much ecm, too high hitpoints, we are doing it for like 30min already and only got to the second spawn, i hope theres not another... maybe works when counteracting the ecm somehow, we have no eccm :D
edit: okay, we got a third spawn, so we ragequited
for everyone else, each spawn had 8 cruisers, some frigs, first spawn had 4-6 ecm cruiser, second spawn had a fleeing cruiser, moved to 150km...
Agreed, the amount of ECM in these sites is ridiculous and ECCM just doesn't seem to work. Haven't finished one yet running 2 to 4 domis. Maybe with a dedicated trigger and silly sensor strength but I haven't tried that yet.
As I see it now, all you could do would be marauders. |
Omia Ibruin
Centralised Censorship
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
"The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered."
Sing Hallelujah! Sing it Sing Hallelujah! Sing it, yeah Sing Hallelujah!
Sing Hallelujah! Sing it Sing Hallelujah! Sing it, yeah Sing Hallelujah! Sing Hallelujah!
Sing Hallelujah! Sing it Sing Hallelujah! Sing it
Dr-Alban |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
62
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Tycho Naskingar wrote:Tragot Gomndor wrote:currently running distress beacon... setup: 2x remote armor nestors, 1x shield nightmare, crap fits
too much ecm, too high hitpoints, we are doing it for like 30min already and only got to the second spawn, i hope theres not another... maybe works when counteracting the ecm somehow, we have no eccm :D
edit: okay, we got a third spawn, so we ragequited
for everyone else, each spawn had 8 cruisers, some frigs, first spawn had 4-6 ecm cruiser, second spawn had a fleeing cruiser, moved to 150km... Agreed, the amount of ECM in these sites is ridiculous and ECCM just doesn't seem to work. Haven't finished one yet running 2 to 4 domis. Maybe with a dedicated trigger and silly sensor strength but I haven't tried that yet. As I see it now, all you could do would be marauders. The incursion rats use an ECM mechanic which is not dependent on sensor strength. It is a straight 100% chance to jam. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
colera deldios
196
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Posted - 2014.08.11 18:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
@CCP FoxFour
You should be nerfing HS Incursions to the point where the avg. isk/hour is bellow that of 0.0 Instead of giving them even more ISK at no RISK. If you need me to list 30 reasons why HS Incursions should not make as much as 0.0 let me know. |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
62
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Otuk Andven wrote: given that Vanguard meta is focused around battle cruisers and a few solo logi I suspect they'll be designed as an slightly easier version of this and good thing too. One of the major problem with incursions is the high requirements mean that only a few big groups do it. By creating these small sites you can get corps and other group coming in and trying it out without competing with the major group.
Uhm.......
Vanguard meta is currently battleships and t2 logi. the lightest tanked shield channels want at least a t2 invuln and DC2 with a t1 em rig. Lightest armor channel I know of runs t2 fit t1-hull cruiser logi and single EANM fits. Combat battlecruisers are almost unused in mainland highsec (what most people think of when they hear incursions without any modifiers). Attack battlecruisers are used almost exclusively for NCNs. Corporate fleets happen occasionally, but are usually out-contested by the incursion channel-based communities in HS.This is the intended sort of meta, as CCP would long ago have changed contest mechanics given the number of tears if these mechanics were not as intended. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Saraki Ishikela
Deep Space Adventure Time
61
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
I liked the ideas being tossed around to make a cruiser/BC sized spawn that can be run by 3-5 people so newer players can run these and participate in the content.
If the current feedback of 4-5 Battleships taking 30+ minutes to run these is correct then they will still most likely go ignored.
TLDR Everyone in Battleships will still run Vanguards, let newer players run these in smaller ships. One newbies quest to ExploreEVE: Youtube:www.youtube.com/exploreeve- Blogspot:http://exploreeve.blogspot.com Twitter:www.twitter.com/exploreeve - Facebook:www.facebook.com/exploreeve |
Yuri Semah
I don't even care anymore
0
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tried a Distress Beacon... first wave had 3 Antems, 4(!!!) Arnons, 1 Jel, 1 Mara and 1 Orkashu. That's about 1200 paper dps - about half of what you get in VGs, still too much for a local rep on a T1 BS (unless you sacrifice everything for it). 5 ECM ships, in VGs you have a maximum of 3, and all of them are frigates which you can shoot off the field really quick. If those Arnons decide to go crazy you have 4 out of your 5 ships on grid doing nothing. Lastly there is 561k EHP on field - that is as much as the 1st wave of an NMC with 5 Romis.
Less ECM and less EHP to get through, please. |
JamDunc
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
191
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
I am assuming there is a trick we are missing?
I remember when Incursions first launched and everyone thought they were CRAZY. Once we learned the tactics they were easy. I'm not smart enough to work out the tactics though. |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
180
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys,
- The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered.
I'd like a clarification.. Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother..
Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window.
Which is it?
Also, I would like it if you adjusted incursion so that the mom doesn't spawn as soon as influence is 0.. I mean even it just making it not span till the next dt.. or earliest it'll spawn is 48hrs after the Incursion spawned.. something so we don't have to move every day.. or if as I read, the spawn's start to happen instantly, we might be looking at 5 or so incursions a day.. that's just insane for BS fleets to move..
Some degree of stability would be much appreciated. |
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Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1125
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space. |
Kithran
104
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Tycho Naskingar wrote:Tragot Gomndor wrote:currently running distress beacon... setup: 2x remote armor nestors, 1x shield nightmare, crap fits
too much ecm, too high hitpoints, we are doing it for like 30min already and only got to the second spawn, i hope theres not another... maybe works when counteracting the ecm somehow, we have no eccm :D
edit: okay, we got a third spawn, so we ragequited
for everyone else, each spawn had 8 cruisers, some frigs, first spawn had 4-6 ecm cruiser, second spawn had a fleeing cruiser, moved to 150km... Agreed, the amount of ECM in these sites is ridiculous and ECCM just doesn't seem to work. Haven't finished one yet running 2 to 4 domis. Maybe with a dedicated trigger and silly sensor strength but I haven't tried that yet. As I see it now, all you could do would be marauders. The incursion rats use an ECM mechanic which is not dependent on sensor strength. It is a straight 100% chance to jam.
Incorrect - it is simply that the rats jam strength increases each time it fails to jam - see here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=430301#post430301 |
Kithran
104
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Posted - 2014.08.11 19:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space.
Considering how much territory the CFC controls they already are. You can run null sec incursions in safety and make more than high sec.
There is one person I know of who has simply been running missions in npc null - a few weeks and he now has 20 billion and 12 plex.
Next strawman please. |
Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1125
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
As one of the people who has recently run missions out of 5ZXX, I can assure you, I know quite well that highsec incursions make more money. And not only that, but they exist in safety. If I want to run missions, my friends and I have to control the 5ZXX station undock and the surrounding system gates. This involves a process I'm sure you're unfamiliar with known as "killing people." This is an element of the game noticeably lacking in highsec, and it remains an error on the part of CCP that high reward activities continue to exist in these safe areas. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2761
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Posted - 2014.08.11 20:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
can you remove gate rats from lowsec incursions?
Typically active areas are empty for the duration of incursions. There are several problems with those rats. Firstly they can, if you are unlucky instant point and web you, while not following any rules of player ships. Sometimes they sleep and completely ignore you for 10s and sometimes they instantly tackle you (including ewar and what not). They don't drop anything, they don't comply to ship fitting rules and are therefore hard to fight with pvp ships. Rats designed to be killed by a group of pve ships should not hang around at gates in completely over the top stats (again: they don't even drop anything).
i know that you probably hoped that "if they **** players off long enough they will come and close the incursion". But nobody would do that, people usually avoid the whole area for roams. Not to mention that this is not even in the interest of incursion runners themselves since they want to farm the incursion till the last minute instead of closing it early. I am sure you have the statistics yourself. Amamake was literally empty the last time i saw an incursion there (about 1-2 month ago). eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Kithran
105
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Posted - 2014.08.11 20:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:As one of the people who has recently run missions out of 5ZXX, I can assure you, I know quite well that highsec incursions make more money. And not only that, but they exist in safety. If I want to run missions, my friends and I have to control the 5ZXX station undock and the surrounding system gates. This involves a process I'm sure you're unfamiliar with known as "killing people." This is an element of the game noticeably lacking in highsec, and it remains an error on the part of CCP that high reward activities continue to exist in these safe areas.
I wasn't referring to trying to run npc missions for a corp with just a single station - of course that is going to be camped.
If you can't show enough common sense to do it somewhere safe you have no chance. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1156
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Posted - 2014.08.11 21:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
If it's not the gankers, it's the Wh'ers if not them the Nul sec'ers everyone is an expert on how easy Incursions are, regardless of what the actual players using the content say.
They are not risk free regardless of where they are located, there are about a 100 posts that explain in detail what and where the risks are, look them up, they are in threads littered all over the forums.
This thread 'Incursion changes on Sisi now' in the 'feedback' sub-forum is for feedback on the current iteration of Scout sites currently available on SiSi. If you want them nerfed, eliminated or changed specific to one region then start a thread in the proper forum with the proper title, otherwise contribute to this conversation by running a few scout sites on SiSi and advise Fox Four of tweaks needed before the release date.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
396
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:05:00 -
[38] - Quote
I used to sometimes take a couple of brand new players into scout site, just for the experience. We could run scout sites with 2-3 day old newbies before with 1 experienced logi frig pilot. Will this still be possible? |
Zand Vor
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
3
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Posted - 2014.08.11 21:12:00 -
[39] - Quote
Just tried a site in a Golem on Sisi. I was fitted for more tank than gank and couldn't break a Mara's shield rep in the 1st wave.
Pyfa reports me at 674 dps using Precision missiles. I may try again with dual-painters and 4 BCS.
I don't see how anything non-Marauder is going to deal w/ that much ECM though. |
Fortorn Lonshanks
Adeptus Incursio
3
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Posted - 2014.08.11 21:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
I'd like to go on record here about the "highly profitable" activities in high sec.
1. This is a PVE activity that requires massive group coordination and/or Boxing to succeed. This is unlike null sec PVE isk/hour which requires NO coordination to do referencing anomalies, DED sites, exploration, belt ratting. Also referencing coordination based on alliance structure and CTAs i'm going to put that in the realm of PVP.
2. There is plenty of risk. A standard PVE ship in null is likely T2 fitted with maybe a few "necessary to run" faction mods. High sec incursion ships are worth FAR FAR more than those null sec "throw away" ships. IF a null sec ratter loses a ship, talking 300-500m but when a nigh sec incursioner loses one at the least its 1-2b isk.
3. The sheer amount of people in null sec ratting FAR exceeds the number of people running incursions in high sec in any given moment. The isk/faucet in null pours waterfalls, high-sec incursions are more like streams. Streams also in that only a finite maximum number of players at any one time can be making the isk in incursions at any given second. The maximum number of players farming null has likely never been reached.
To CCP I say this, be cautious. Don't target the entire game except NULL. WH community is already in near open rebellion. We don't all want to kiss the ring of the isk gods living null. I request that you be fair handed and start putting forth ideas on how to stop the isk faucet in null starting immediately. |
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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
237
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Posted - 2014.08.11 21:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
Fortorn Lonshanks wrote:I'd like to go on record here about the "highly profitable" activities in high sec.
1. This is a PVE activity that requires massive group coordination and/or Boxing to succeed. This is unlike null sec PVE isk/hour which requires NO coordination to do referencing anomalies, DED sites, exploration, belt ratting. Also referencing coordination based on alliance structure and CTAs i'm going to put that in the realm of PVP.
2. There is plenty of risk. A standard PVE ship in null is likely T2 fitted with maybe a few "necessary to run" faction mods. High sec incursion ships are worth FAR FAR more than those null sec "throw away" ships. IF a null sec ratter loses a ship, talking 300-500m but when a nigh sec incursioner loses one at the least its 1-2b isk.
3. The sheer amount of people in null sec ratting FAR exceeds the number of people running incursions in high sec in any given moment. The isk/faucet in null pours waterfalls, high-sec incursions are more like streams. Streams also in that only a finite maximum number of players at any one time can be making the isk in incursions at any given second. The maximum number of players farming null has likely never been reached.
To CCP I say this, be cautious. Don't target the entire game except NULL. WH community is already in near open rebellion. We don't all want to kiss the ring of the isk gods living null. I request that you be fair handed and start putting forth ideas on how to stop the isk faucet in null starting immediately. +1 for stuffing a gag in all the whiny Null Sec 'bears If putting eyes on a station and some gates is too much for you to do, you'd rage quit at trying anything in a WH. Or, more likely, you'd cry to a CSM rep about "fixing" the WH "carebears" who kick you out when you set up a tower. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15605
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Posted - 2014.08.11 21:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zand Vor wrote:Just tried a site in a Golem on Sisi. I was fitted for more tank than gank and couldn't break a Mara's shield rep in the 1st wave.
Pyfa reports me at 674 dps using Precision missiles. I may try again with dual-painters and 4 BCS.
I don't see how anything non-Marauder is going to deal w/ that much ECM though. Logi triforce.
I also think the 5-ship limit goes against the idea of promoting group gameplay. limiting the numbers makes more sense for higher sites, which are more viable/survivable due to the triple logi [minimum] consuming a smaller portion of the gang.
I'm not sure what is being avoided with a payout curve of 5. as an ISK faucet, scouts are a long way from being a gusher.
I think the curve for Vanguard sites should be lower. on separate occasions I've tanked them with three basilisks, and three remote rep faction battleships (2 rattlesnakes, 1 nightmare). what you're seeing with Vanguards is a minimum of 3 logistics, and anything beyond that is just DPS. anything over 6 (3 logi, 3 DPS battleships) is purely a race-to-the-finish factor.
what I'm saying is the payout curve misses the mark in both scouts and vanguards. they should both be 6 or 7.
the minimum difficulty of vanguard sites is cleared at 6.
a payout curve of 5 removes the option of larger groups in scout sites. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:41:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'm actually firing up the test server for this, not sure if it will be good or bad, but we shall soon see.
Back with feedback "Soon" Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll. |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
I like people saying VG Min Logi is 3..
Two Logi is the standard for most VG groups, 1 is more than able to do it (with it being repped by Logi drones from the other ships)..
And that's before we even talk about Marauders.
Scout sites will likely be the same, or even T1 BS's with active reps + logi drones.. should more than keep them up in a 5 man gang.. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15605
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:I like people saying VG Min Logi is 3..
Two Logi is the standard for most VG groups, 1 is more than able to do it (with it being repped by Logi drones from the other ships)..
And that's before we even talk about Marauders.
Scout sites will likely be the same, or even T1 BS's with active reps + logi drones.. should more than keep them up in a 5 man gang.. more than just two logi in the cap chain, yes? as in, cap transfers on the battleships? which is smart, and not an isolated two-logi scenario like you make it sound. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1156
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:I like people saying VG Min Logi is 3..
Two Logi is the standard for most VG groups, 1 is more than able to do it (with it being repped by Logi drones from the other ships)..
And that's before we even talk about Marauders.
Scout sites will likely be the same, or even T1 BS's with active reps + logi drones.. should more than keep them up in a 5 man gang.. more than just two logi in the cap chain, yes? as in, cap transfers on the battleships? which is smart, and not an isolated two-logi scenario like you make it sound. I know where your coming from, but I haven't seen more than two Logi in a VG fleet in two years, any more than that and your killing your DPS curve and dragging dead weight.
Thatt Guy; I am loading SiSi as well, will try to meet up with anyone there and run a few to check within the hour, plus travel time.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Ramzious
Faction Modules and Munitions Joint Alliance Blue
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:59:00 -
[47] - Quote
Anyone referring to 3 logi minimum and cap chain for logi must be remembering the pre "big-nerf" fleets of yore. I have run VG incursions off and on for the last year and anything over two scimitars in a shield fleet is laughed at these days. As a test, some groups run with two logi but make one sit inactive while the other takes care of the entire fleet. I have not run a scout site in ages, may have to try one again. 3 decently tanked (buffer) BC or BS and two logi (simply for the high ecm I see complained about) should be enough for a Scout site. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15605
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
ok, I'll go with it. you only need 2 logi for vanguards, and the 10 ship payout curve is a little more excessive than I claimed earlier? President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:07:00 -
[49] - Quote
Holy crap I forgot how pretty Eve is with full graphics and sound!
OK... Payout: 3.5 mil + 50 Concord LP First impression, more LP. Vanguards pay out 2k LP per site, at least scale it up to 500.
Forming fleet to try sites now, will report back. Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll. |
Safdrof Uta
VELOCIRAPTORS EATING GRILLED CHEESE SANDWICH
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:10:00 -
[50] - Quote
I regret to inform you that I currently have no numbers, will rectify this and report back when I can. |
|
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
396
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
Niko Lorenzio wrote:I used to sometimes take a couple of brand new players into scout site, just for the experience. We could run scout sites with 2-3 day old newbies before with 1 experienced logi frig pilot. Will this still be possible?
Lol.. I just tried it on SiSi. Guess not.
I think it would've been better if you added gate restricted to frig-destroyer/cruiser-battlecruiser in scout/vanguard sites. Lowered their difficulty and allowed them to be done in t1 hulls for a decent income that's at least comparable to level 3-4 missions. Nerfing vanguards is not a good idea though, so please add another tier between scout a vanguard. Scout being doable in T1 frigs and the next one in T1 cruisers. Also, increased payout for all lowsec sites would be nice. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15605
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
Thatt Guy wrote:Holy crap I forgot how pretty Eve is with full graphics and sound!
OK... Payout: 3.5 mil + 50 Concord LP First impression, more LP. Vanguards pay out 2k LP per site, at least scale it up to 500.
Forming fleet to try sites now, will report back. scout sites payout WHAT? lol awesome President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:ok, I'll go with it. you only need 2 logi for vanguards, and the 10 ship payout curve is a little more excessive than I claimed earlier? Most VG groups also run one heavy, 11. The loss in payout is more than made up by the increase in site efficiency from the extra DPS. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15606
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:41:00 -
[54] - Quote
let's not confuse difficult with competitive. you're throwing 11 at them because you're trying to blitz them faster than the other guys. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:49:00 -
[55] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:let's not confuse difficult with competitive. you're throwing 11 at them because you're trying to blitz them faster than the other guys. Never said they were hard, just said that's how they are done :p
I personally stick to HQ's.. I don't like all the small stuff in VG sites :p |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
238
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:59:00 -
[56] - Quote
I am definitely a fan of fixing the NCN wall as well as giving people a reason to run Scout sites. 3.5M payout sounds pretty good, although I am a little concerned that only paying out 50 LP will just give people a reason to run other sites instead. HQ Sites pay out 10000 LP per site, Assaults pay out 5000 LP per site, Vanguards pay out 2000 LP per site, and then Scouts pay out a measly 50 LP? Half of the appeal in Incursions is the LP pay out, so by not addressing the meager 50 LP you have only addressed half of the reason they aren't run. I foresee newbies running Scout sites, then they jump into an Incursion community chat and are ridiculed for not knowing that the LP sucks and they effectively make way more than just the ISK increase from running VG's. Then the newbies tell other newbies that Scouts still suck and we're back at the current VG/HQ min/max meta, the only real difference will be that when one or the other of the HQ groups gets their panties twisted up and pops a mom in a tantrum then the next will spawn quicker so they get compete for more attention by popping that one too. |
Saul Hyperion
Palmetto Galactic
84
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
Been messing around with the nullsec ones. The jamming is way too much. When you can only bring five people, a single jam can be devastating. |
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:28:00 -
[58] - Quote
Kithran wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space. Considering how much territory the CFC controls they already are. You can run null sec incursions in safety and make more than high sec. There is one person I know of who has simply been running missions in npc null - a few weeks and he now has 20 billion and 12 plex. Next strawman please.
I'm the leader of the CFC's Incursion sig, and my alt is a FC in the hisec incursion community, so I can speak on both sides of this subject with plenty of experience.
You're wrong on this, I go run hisec incursions to make isk, they are much more profitable.
Hisec groups are able to (mostly) safely able to field 160B isk fleets to push crazy site times. I can safely field a 4B isk ship, and have near-0% chance of getting blown up. Ask for statistics from one of the hisec incursion groups if you disagree that the risk is somewhere near 0, even including ganks (including things like boosters, logis and blingy incursion hulls).
In hisec, I lead a 100+B isk fleet, after being in the hisec group I'm in for few months. Most the pilots know what they are doing, and with the risk level where it is, it's not unsafe to turn the fleet over to a member that's been around. How many organizations would turn a fleet worth the same as an 80 man capital fleet to someone they've known for less then a year? We also get shut down for about an hour a few times a day as roaming fleets come through dek right now, and Deklin is the safest area for us to run in.
Also, we're very unpredictable about if we can run incursions or not. We go for 4+ week spans of not able to run incursions because they are all in hostile space. Then about 1/3 the time past that it spawns somewhere where we need clear it to fix our JB network, and also so that our line member don't die to gate. (like the current incursion in S-B1E4)
We've had about 9 workable incursions since May 17th, and that includes 3 incursions that we did that were more "experimental", in much more hostile areas, and we're trying to learn how to get passable site times with cheaper ships.
I can choose to run incursions in hisec, and get ~15 minute HQ sites, or ~5 minute VG sites. If I can't do HQs in 22.5 minutes, or 7.5 min VG sites, it's more profitable to run in hisec. And in hisec, I have no questions about bringing a 5B isk into the fleet. How the shiney groups get their site times down is by bringing a bunch of isk ongrid, and blapping everything.
Pushing site times down is all about bringing a ton of bling in fleet, and being at zero influence. Out in nullsec, it takes 24-48 hours to get the incursion to 0 influence. In hisec, you tend to be at 0 influence within 6-12 hours.
Nullsec incursions need a huge buff. Please have some facts before trying to act intelligent. And also please stay on-topic. NPC Mission running has nothing to do with nullsec incursions. Your statement goes to prove that are other activities in nullsec that are more profitable then incursion running. Also, we've goon-rushed MOA enough that the price of those BPCs has tanked, so the profit of those have tanked out. |
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:31:00 -
[59] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:let's not confuse difficult with competitive. you're throwing 11 at them because you're trying to blitz them faster than the other guys.
They run with 11 ongrid for more isk/hr. You're going from 8 dps to 9 DPS, a 12% dps increase, and also pops targets before they burn into range and start orbiting. This shaves a good bit off your site time, for a cost of 10% of your payout. They run 12 ongrid to win contests. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15606
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:32:00 -
[60] - Quote
and that figure doesn't include warfare link boosters (which I didn't have, back when I tested Vanguards in triple logi and triple RR BS).
that solution to the missing intermediate difficulty site betwen scout and VG might be the payout curves themselves. payout curve of 7 / 7 for scout and vanguard, don't you think? it should be noted that I have such a composition with 2 CS mindlinked warfare boosters, and 10 combat ships that can handle any subcap comp... I found vanguards are too "micromanage" compared to other PVE (Cap Escalations) but if i wanted someplace to go without risking several caps and subcap support compositions, I might be enticed by vanguards (and possibly scouts even, w-how!) if the payout curve was 7 and 7... just -something- to make the PVE enjoyable without a group of green, blue, and purple faction ships contesting the site.
it wasn't the stress of handling small ships with various names --tank and bail if necessary--it was bling groups coming in and ruining my fun. I hardly had time to yell battle commands to myself before it was over
I'd be nerfing myself here. but honest assessment anyway, because i'm real like that. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
|
WeaponsSt
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
After playing around on sisi:
1. Marauders can tank scout sites no problem 2. Mara's have insane jams (drones completely jammed out throughout the site), but don't shoot. 3. More LP; 500 - 700 should be good.
I fully realize these sites are not balanced for one marauder to take on (nor should they be) but something has to be wrong with Maras.
Edit: I just realized that the system penalties are why Maras are difficult to kill.... The jams, however, should be looked at. |
Fortorn Lonshanks
Adeptus Incursio
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Plaid Rabbit wrote:Kithran wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space. Considering how much territory the CFC controls they already are. You can run null sec incursions in safety and make more than high sec. There is one person I know of who has simply been running missions in npc null - a few weeks and he now has 20 billion and 12 plex. Next strawman please. I'm the leader of the CFC's Incursion sig, and my alt is a FC in the hisec incursion community, so I can speak on both sides of this subject with plenty of experience. You're wrong on this, I go run hisec incursions to make isk, they are much more profitable.Hisec groups are able to (mostly) safely able to field 160B isk fleets to push crazy site times. I can safely field a 4B isk ship, and have near-0% chance of getting blown up. Ask for statistics from one of the hisec incursion groups if you disagree that the risk is somewhere near 0, even including ganks (including things like boosters, logis and blingy incursion hulls). In hisec, I lead a 100+B isk fleet, after being in the hisec group I'm in for few months. Most the pilots know what they are doing, and with the risk level where it is, it's not unsafe to turn the fleet over to a member that's been around. How many organizations would turn a fleet worth the same as an 80 man capital fleet to someone they've known for less then a year? We also get shut down for about an hour a few times a day as roaming fleets come through dek right now, and Deklin is the safest area for us to run in. We have scouts, and we know things are coming up, so we can dock up and get safe, but it still stops our isk/hr. In hisec, pvp isn't usually a problem. Also, we're very unpredictable about if we can run incursions or not. We go for 4+ week spans of not able to run incursions because they are all in hostile space. Then about 1/3 the time past that it spawns somewhere where we need clear it to fix our JB network, and also so that our line member don't die to gate. (like the current incursion in S-B1E4) We've had about 9 workable incursions since May 17th, and that includes 3 incursions that we did that were more "experimental", in much more hostile areas, and we're trying to learn how to get passable site times with cheaper ships. I can choose to run incursions in hisec, and get ~15 minute HQ sites, or ~5 minute VG sites. If I can't do HQs in 22.5 minutes, or 7.5 min VG sites, it's more profitable to run in hisec. And in hisec, I have no questions about bringing a 5B isk into the fleet. How the shiney groups get their site times down is by bringing a bunch of isk ongrid, and blapping everything. Pushing site times down is all about bringing a ton of bling in fleet, and being at zero influence. Out in nullsec, it takes 24-48 hours to get the incursion to 0 influence. In hisec, you tend to be at 0 influence within 6-12 hours. Nullsec incursions need a huge buff. Please have some facts before trying to act intelligent. And also please stay on-topic. NPC Mission running has nothing to do with nullsec incursions. Your statement goes to prove that are other activities in nullsec that are more profitable then incursion running. Also, we've goon-rushed MOA enough that the price of those BPCs has tanked, so the profit of those have tanked out.
If you are speaking about the profitability of null/low incursions, you could have a point there HOWEVER High sec does not have 10/10 DED sites or the hardest most profitable scan sites/anoms so null sec still beats high sec for isk/hr generation as a whole.
In my previous post I pointed out that the overall isk faucet of null sec is far greater than high sec overall. I also pointed out that given the maximum number of incursions active at any one time, the average site times, number of sites, and max number of pilots per system type the overall number of pilots is FAR less than all of null sec by wide and far margins. When the null sec faucet gets nerfed then i could accept a high sec incursion isk nerf. |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:47:00 -
[63] - Quote
WeaponsSt wrote:After playing around on sisi:
1. Marauders can tank scout sites no problem 2. Mara's have insane jams (drones completely jammed out throughout the site), but don't shoot. 3. More LP; 500 - 700 should be good.
I fully realize these sites are not balanced for one marauder to take on (nor should they be) but something has to be wrong with Maras.
Edit: I just realized that the system penalties are why Maras are difficult to kill.... The jams, however, should be looked at. Mara's don't Jam. Arnons Jam, Mara's are "Boosters" that increase shield resist in all Sansha ships while they are alive. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1158
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:21:00 -
[64] - Quote
First try; 3 Eos T2-XL ASB tank assigned sentry drones, never got into armour, but the spawns kept running away and I decided to scrap the idea and try a 5 ship fleet.
2nd try 3 Machs; 2x1400, 1x800 Huggin; webs no guns, (Yeah I know Arty Rapier might have been better) Scimi; 4 t2 reps and 2 tracking links (Never needed more than 3 reps running) (only needed one T2 large Shield transfer from a Mach to keep Scimi alive with room aggro)
Don't judge it's what we had
Forward Recon 2nd spawn; 5 Arnons, two Antems, 2 Jels and an Orkashu (Didn't know these jammed, never seen one survive that long)
Distress beacon; 3rd spawn; 4 niarjas, 2 Arnons, 2 Maras and a pair of Eyesturs Another permajam wave.
Propaganda Cluster; took forever with 5 to 8 jamming rats per wave, actually had to swap scripts in the Mach because the Antems ran out past 140km.
I would say that's a whole lot of Ewar, so as my fleet member recommended, perfect site for a Vargur, or any other e-war immune Maurader.
Some ranges and spawns from screenshots, http://imgur.com/SHy3AKd
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
KanashiiKami
105
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:25:00 -
[65] - Quote
i have some ideas for CCP
maybe all incursion sites no longer have a specific name tag to it. IE - no more OTA, NMC, NCN, TCRC, etc names. they are all now "vanguard" or "assault" etc
by scraping this naming convention, maybe CCP should fully re-organise what spawns inside of a site. instead of a straight warp in to what is expected, maybe CCP should have a base element of random-ness (manageable level of course) in every site, instead of a straight course of expectedness. IE -- mining mission sometimes give you security mission? 10%? (do they still?) it is a PVE element after all aint it?
maybe CCP should rethink a site broken into pockets and gated segments, and each pocket/gated part + parts are result of how fleets trigger the site. or CCP can choose to fully randomize the trigger.
so in all, all the basic sites we know as NMC, OTA, TCRC are re-org into spawn triggers. and every site has a starting standard spawn containing ALL the triggers for any of these pocket/gated variances.
therefore, a fleet comes in, they whack the triggers, and the variety of spawn goes a certain way wave - wave - wave and it becomes a TCRC. they whack the triggers another way, and the wave - wave - wave it becomes a NMC ... at the last pocket spawn.
by this method, the more "eager" fleets can choose to trigger ALL waves and complete all waves in 1 site sitting. for this respect, maybe CCP should relook at site payout with trigger bonus, IE -- base spawn complete 11m (eg VG), +1 bonus trigger +5m, + 2nd bonus trigger + 5m. i think CCP should seriously look into a single site mechanics, that could be expandable in itself via simple introduction of "pocket spawn mechanics".
the sansha spawn that greets any inc fleet IE -- pocket A, it could lead to trigger pocket B/C/D/E/F, which in turn to pockets G/H/I/J/K ... all the way to Z. a basic site clearance could be compulsory clearance of 3 pockets (A --> G --> Z maybe? A --> F --> Q?), and every additional is a bonus. and by slightly randomizing the way A-Z triggers, i think it could be quite abit of fun there. (so imagine, a really pimped fleet, going from A----Z, 1 base + 25 bonus)
so in terms of segregation, with this there could be a real seperation of clusters of players WHO REALLY run only bonused runs, and those just the usual 3 triggers.
and to further add, instead of spawns coming to fleet, maybe CCP should consider fleet goto spawn and USE MORE nav skillset. we all know how people come in with fits to link for fleets, and some are just not it, while it is not the job of CCp to make the site a test to weed out badly skilled players (or badly fitted), it should be a more obvious show for the latter, or you know those shiny ships that only fire 1 gun? maybe CCP should re-think the AI of sansha, that they should target ships with lease DPS, the weaker ship instead of the strongest DPS (based on some kind of aggro?). i think this makes more sense, it would be pointless to attack a ship with highest DPS as it would seem that the player is higher skilled and is definately skilled to tank. so i feel that the AI should be reversed in this respect (although the first ship in is always AAA, no doubt is always getting primaried)
i also feel that more "passive threshold" should be in place to award higher skilled player fleets, IE -- maybe the MARA should really rep sansha ships at 1000% rate, so the fleet really really really need to focus fire and be of a certain DPS rate. or maybe there should be more niarjas on first easy spawns lesser damage, test of target locking? coordination?
also i think CCP should use incursions or structure it, so that it not ONLY use DPS/LOGI skillsets. CCP can make a trigger that MUST be destroyed using a SB and the user must be level 5 (maybe a special pocket where the special bomber destroys something 100km off the fleet?) or a pocket "WIN" situation, where a trigger MUST be a hacking level 5 a pocket spawn scenario where the fleet MUST burn 100km to it in order to trigger the next wave (logi get set to cap up the rear enders). and they must arrive together, else that lead ship get blapped badly? like full wave TCRC? maybe there is a new trigger type, a factory, a player must do somekind of INDY to it to make the trigger work. create a pseudo ship at the factory in X seconds. or even a factory, a player MUST duplicate a BPC, while at it, all sansha will keep on bombarding this fella until taken out? or BPC copy succeeds? make spawns force fleets to diversify into various ship usages instead of ONLY NM, machs, etc. say maybe make that stupid MARA and a few more cruisers do 3k m/s all over the fleet, so the fleet MUST have long range webs like loki or even a bhaal? OR instead of ONLY using tachyons, now the fleet will have to diversify into even HIGHER traversal weaponry, like PULSE? AUTOCANNON? MISSILES? or introduce a new trigger that a sansha ship/structure needs to NEUTED continously to zero. OR continously ECMed? (similar to mechanics of MTAC? like a side show that makes the main trigger go boom eventually)
but on the other hand, everybody likes a 1 single standard fit that runs all kinds of sites. warp - blap - warp - blap - warp - blap ... the higher the DPS, the higher the "WIN" factor. im not sure if "warp - blap" is THE future of incursions in dev roadmap (burst damage is definately the way to go almost ANYWHERE IN EVE), but im thinking, incursions could be more colorful (except NCN). people take 20-40 jumps to a focus in a certain fit, generally, somebody needs to sit down and think what can they fit in more ... as a "generic" fit OR set of fits, or just bring a **** load of fittable mods, and then "yurt" up ...
"trigger - YURTswapmod - trigger - blap" instead of "warp - blap" (or in certain aspects, more roles to play per pocket because MORE varied triggers are in place)
hope any of the devs understand what i said lol WUT ??? |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:32:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ok.. 1500 dps tank runs most sites, but get hairy at spawns 5 marauders avg 10 min each site (paladins) Rats range from 9km to 120km Rats are fast, tracking is a problem with beams Rats have solid tanks
Total Payout for 5 man gang: 17.5 mil isk 250 LP (not each, total)
**Note** I don't know kill orders to decrease incoming dps, or speed things up yet Seems pretty balanced, but 5 sites isn't enough to make a good judgment. I'm hoping the LP payout was simply overlooked, 500-750 seems appropriate.
Overall feels right, maybe a little too much tank, but ofc it was a system with full penalties in-place. Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll. |
KanashiiKami
105
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
as an addition
maybe CCP have special triggers for lowsec null focus, deployment of warp bubble to catch a sansha trigger?
a certain special smartbomb trigger? WUT ??? |
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:47:00 -
[68] - Quote
Fortorn Lonshanks wrote: If you are speaking about the profitability of null/low incursions, you could have a point there HOWEVER High sec does not have 10/10 DED sites or the hardest most profitable scan sites/anoms so null sec still beats high sec for isk/hr generation as a whole.
In my previous post I pointed out that the overall isk faucet of null sec is far greater than high sec overall. I also pointed out that given the maximum number of incursions active at any one time, the average site times, number of sites, and max number of pilots per system type the overall number of pilots is FAR less than all of null sec by wide and far margins. When the null sec faucet gets nerfed then i could accept a high sec incursion isk nerf.
I'm not saying nurf hisec, I'm saying buff nullsec (sorry w-space guys). Another solution to this problem is to allow more people ongrid and still get max payout (change it from the current 10 to say 15), it'd let us get better site times, but not really screw with the per player isk/hr, but would let us bring more ongrid to get closer to better site times, but as we get faster fleets, we'd still be capped to 50% more then hisec. Hisec bling fleets are everyone takes an alpha shot, blap everything, wait for next spawn, warp to the next site. More people ongrid would let us get closer to that, with a little lower risk of what we have to bring ongrid to do it. |
KanashiiKami
105
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:56:00 -
[69] - Quote
Plaid Rabbit wrote:Fortorn Lonshanks wrote: If you are speaking about the profitability of null/low incursions, you could have a point there HOWEVER High sec does not have 10/10 DED sites or the hardest most profitable scan sites/anoms so null sec still beats high sec for isk/hr generation as a whole.
In my previous post I pointed out that the overall isk faucet of null sec is far greater than high sec overall. I also pointed out that given the maximum number of incursions active at any one time, the average site times, number of sites, and max number of pilots per system type the overall number of pilots is FAR less than all of null sec by wide and far margins. When the null sec faucet gets nerfed then i could accept a high sec incursion isk nerf.
I'm not saying nurf hisec, I'm saying buff nullsec (sorry w-space guys). Another solution to this problem is to allow more people ongrid and still get max payout (change it from the current 10 to say 15), it'd let us get better site times, but not really screw with the per player isk/hr, but would let us bring more ongrid to get closer to better site times, but as we get faster fleets, we'd still be capped to 50% more then hisec. Hisec bling fleets are everyone takes an alpha shot, blap everything, wait for next spawn, warp to the next site. More people ongrid would let us get closer to that, with a little lower risk of what we have to bring ongrid to do it.
this is just more of the same ...
warp - blap - warp - blap - warp - blap - warp - blap - WUT ??? |
WeaponsSt
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 03:10:00 -
[70] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:WeaponsSt wrote:After playing around on sisi:
1. Marauders can tank scout sites no problem 2. Mara's have insane jams (drones completely jammed out throughout the site), but don't shoot. 3. More LP; 500 - 700 should be good.
I fully realize these sites are not balanced for one marauder to take on (nor should they be) but something has to be wrong with Maras.
Edit: I just realized that the system penalties are why Maras are difficult to kill.... The jams, however, should be looked at. Mara's don't Jam. Arnons Jam, Mara's are "Boosters" that increase shield resist in all Sansha ships while they are alive.
Right. Either way, Jams OP. |
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Mara Tessidar
Dark Star Safari Goonswarm Federation
1129
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 04:03:00 -
[71] - Quote
Fortorn Lonshanks wrote:If you are speaking about the profitability of null/low incursions, you could have a point there HOWEVER High sec does not have 10/10 DED sites or the hardest most profitable scan sites/anoms so null sec still beats high sec for isk/hr generation as a whole.
Somebody please tell me where I can find all these 10/10 DED sites to continually run (and also don't give me OSE-only drops every time). Oh, wait, you made that up because you have no idea what you're talking about.
The income of your average pilot in nullsec is about 50 million ISK/hour running an AFKtar. CCP decided active ratting was something they didn't want to see in the game and nerfed anomalies considerably by adding more NPCs that are difficult to kill and have low bounties. Furthermore, with the ESS change, they nerfed systems without the ESS by 5% and systems with the ESS pay out up to 105% of the original bounty with 25% of that in the form of tags that can be stolen (and the 105% was based on LP calculations of 800 ISK/LP--which is about impossible to get for LP that any highsec pleb can also earn in near total safety--and is redeemable at conveniently and commonly placed Empire stations throughout nullsec.) If what I've just written gives you the impression that I think the person who came up with the ESS and forced it on everyone was dumb, you would be correct.
If I want to rat, I can be hotdropped, tackled and killed by roaming gangs, or killed on my way to and from the ratting system. This concept of "death" happens fairly frequently to players out in nullsec, which is why instead of flying billion+ ISK blinged out ratting ships, they use the cheapest ones they can get away with. Those ships die all the time. Highsec incursion blingships die just about never. Not only do nullsec players earn less, but they lose their ships on a routine basis. Sure seems balanced when it comes to the guiding principle of risk versus reward (versus effort, which CCP always forgets about. See also: Mackinaws versus Hulks).
Quote:In my previous post I pointed out that the overall isk faucet of null sec is far greater than high sec overall.
This is completely irrelevant to the issue of ISK/hour for an individual pilot. Also, everybody in highsec gets paid in LP, not ISK, so that's a completely stupid comparison I would expect to be made by a chronically defective individual rather than an average poster on the Eve Online forums.
Quote:I also pointed out that given the maximum number of incursions active at any one time, the average site times, number of sites, and max number of pilots per system type the overall number of pilots is FAR less than all of null sec by wide and far margins.
Apparently the concepts of "hostile space" and "I can't just take really expensive things anywhere in nullsec at any time" are completely foreign to you. This is starting to be a trend.
Quote:When the null sec faucet gets nerfed then i could accept a high sec incursion isk nerf.
Nobody cares what you'll accept. You'll take what you're given from CCP, just like everyone in nullsec took repeated nerfs to income and suffered years of neglect and industrial imbalance.
The day incursion-affected systems become free fire zones is the day highsec incursions will have proportionate income. |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 04:06:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ok, having run a number of sites now, I have a good grasp of things.
Looks like these sites are balanced pretty darn well!
With nothing but T2 gear, and a 15 minute plan, we completed all sites in ~10 minutes with 5 marauders.
Good points: Feels balanced with vanguards for time, logistics, and dps. This will allow newer player a chance to learn, and everyone else something to do while waiting for larger fleets to form. As players are able via skills and experience, they will move up to vanguards/assaults/hqs, that pay better.
Meh points: That's ALOT of jams! Maybe even too much? Given that marauders have a low sig strength to begin with, I still got jammed a few times before dropping into bastion.
Bad points: Payout - Needs to be 5 million isk + 1000LP This will keep them roughly half of vanguard payouts, as the sites seem to be roughly half a vanguard in difficulty.
Overall, WELL DONE!
This is what scouts should have been all along.
Bump that payout a little and you've added a beginner level for incursions that will be great for the community!
Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll. |
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces Tentationes Patronus
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 05:12:00 -
[73] - Quote
Max Kupaptakov wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:
The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered. . Oh, thanks you guys. Now I will have to move 70jumps a day, in order to make ISK in two different incursion sites if "Comunity drama" strikes again. Now you gonna gave us only more MOMs to pop and more jump to make.
You are just encouraging ppl to rage popping more. Then ppl will spend more time on route then "enjoying the content". Better would be to extend time between grinding the influence and poping the mom.
They're not encouraging anything, they're permitting more incursions to be done. If you want to go making several dozen more jumps to squeeze a few more incursions into your day (to reap additional gains) then that's entirely your choice. [u]They are not taking away the choice[u] for incursion fleets to just carry on business as they do already. |
Tragot Gomndor
Rise of Cerberus Cerberus Unleashed
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 06:12:00 -
[74] - Quote
Incursions are fine, but i once was able to do 120-150m isk per hour in 0sec with a Talos, before they nerfed the Forsaken Hubs, and thats much easier and stressless then incursion farming with people that did not even have your own language... all you have to do is sell your soul to sov ^^ 0.0 = GOONS = SAAAMMMMEEE!!!!1111222 |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3442
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 10:36:00 -
[75] - Quote
Hey guys,
Thank you so much for all the feedback so far. Really do appreciate it.
We will continue to monitor the thread for a bit longer before we react to anything, so please continue to run the sites and offer feedback.
I have set the Incursion in Wyllequet to 0% (all blue) to help with testing.
I also have a plan to adjust the LP, it was supposed to be on Sisi but I messed up. When all is said and done you should be getting 400 LP from Scout sites per person. That may change, but it's what I had in mind for now.
Keep up the awesome! :D CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15606
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
I don't feel like playing socket closed games right now. i'll try again later.
I will head out in both shield and armor comps. my curiosity is piqued with scout sites, and it's time I got a feel for vanguards again President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1468
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:31:00 -
[77] - Quote
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
I'm not saying nurf hisec, I'm saying buff nullsec (sorry w-space guys). Another solution to this problem is to allow more people ongrid and still get max payout (change it from the current 10 to say 15), it'd let us get better site times, but not really screw with the per player isk/hr, but would let us bring more ongrid to get closer to better site times, but as we get faster fleets, we'd still be capped to 50% more then hisec. Hisec bling fleets are everyone takes an alpha shot, blap everything, wait for next spawn, warp to the next site. More people ongrid would let us get closer to that, with a little lower risk of what we have to bring ongrid to do it.
More on grid in higher risk incursion space is actually a very nice idea to scale them, and it allows for more people to make livings in null without inflating the income for a single person, so that's actually a nice idea. As a long term incursion runner myself (alt account) I can say that there is plenty of PvP risk in High sec already though, with ganks even coming inside the sites occasionally, and certainly at the gates of the site and any travelling between sites, I almost always hear of someone loosing their ship when incursions change focus. So no need to nerf.
Onto the scout site redesign, it disappoints me that the ideal seems to be designed all around marauders, and not around smaller ship classes. Haven't personally tried them yet, but I can't see how smaller ship classes will be effective except possibly an Ishtar drone assist doctrine where they assist drones to anyone not jammed to keep firing. But that is more a mark of Ishtars being OP than HAC's in general being viable |
NotTheSmartestCookie
New Order Logistics CODE.
43
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:42:00 -
[78] - Quote
It would be a pity if the key to playing these new scout sites is marauders in bastion mode. There is very little space in incursion fleets for newbies in their T1 battleships and Drakes. It would be nice if at least a subset of the scout sites can be completed by scrub fleets. Of course, anything that can be completed by a scrub fleet can be completed by a bling fleet much faster. This can be countered by including timers ("wait until the evacuation ship is ready to leave") to keep ISK/hour within a reasonable range. |
Carniflex
StarHunt Mordus Angels
281
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 12:01:00 -
[79] - Quote
NotTheSmartestCookie wrote:It would be a pity if the key to playing these new scout sites is marauders in bastion mode. There is very little space in incursion fleets for newbies in their T1 battleships and Drakes. It would be nice if at least a subset of the scout sites can be completed by scrub fleets. Of course, anything that can be completed by a scrub fleet can be completed by a bling fleet much faster. This can be countered by including timers ("wait until the evacuation ship is ready to leave") to keep ISK/hour within a reasonable range.
Timers are very boring thing. A while ago I believe there was a lev 4 mission where you had to wait a while for a next spawn to trigger (if you were fast killer). On the other hand lower SP players were often overwhelmed by a timed, not triggered, spawns. Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15606
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 12:07:00 -
[80] - Quote
if marauders were in closer reach, scout sites would be a logical place for newbies to start. one of the logical places. the biggest pity is that 90 day time requirement of the minimums.
this is a thread I started about why skill requirements could stand to not be so 'level V' up front.
basic idea is a marauder that takes about a week to fly, with minimum skills. a lot less capable than a fully skilled marauder, but enough to clear the difficulty of lower level PVE like scout sites. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 14:28:00 -
[81] - Quote
Can you adress my question eariler about spawn times?
--
I'd like a clarification.. Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother..
Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window.
Which is it?
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colera deldios
200
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 14:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
Why are you giving these people more easy ISK at absolutely no risk at all. By what logic does a HS Incursion make more ISK/h than 0.0 Anomalies.
Taken from Reddit:
Quote:Lets see the two downsides to HS Incursions income: 1) You can get ganked while moving or landing on complex. (Which can be avoided) but in the large sense 1 member of the fleet is lost and replaced within a minute.
2) You can loose your ship because of an incompetent fleet mate which can be avoided by simply making a timer how long someone can be in fleet (3-4h) or simply by taking breaks every 2h..
Oh no the two downsides are so horrible lets see what others have to deal with:
Your income is not interrupted by cloacky campers Your income is not dependant on system security level Your income is not dependant on having system upgrades Your income can sustain massive players base 1 system can sustain about 5 people Your income is not reduced if you do not have ESS module You do not have to expose your and your friends ISK in a ESS module available for everyone to steal You do not have to fight for your assets & space None can take your outpost and in turn take massive number of assets from you You don't have to mount home defence fleets When a gang/hostile comes into your system it only interupts you if they gank one of your members and that is only for a minute or two until another player takes his place in 0.0 this shuts down entire constellation/region You don't fly ships that are not commitment ships like a carrier or a maurader You can be semi-afk in a BS and still make same ISK go smi-afk in a carrier/maurader you will end up dead incredibly fast. You do not have to worry that when you warp out the enemy know where your pos/outpost is and dropped the bubble there. You don't have to worry about black ops gangs You aren't in deadspace but gated rooms having a buffer/extra protection You don't have to worry about random WHs appearing You don't have to worry about hostiles when collapsing a WH You don't have to worry about your WH going EOL while you are farming the static You don't have to deal with 15k Incoming DPS from L5s included with respawning neuting towers and massive ewar in extremely hostile environment You don't have to maintain POS or 2-3 accounts of L5 mission pulling characters You don't have to deal with local pirates You don't have to deal with spies in your alliance/corp relaying information to your enemies You don't have to pay sov bill You don't have to pay for sov upgrades You don't have to build and maintain military, industry or strategic index You don't have to pay corp tax since you can be in a solo corp with 0% tax You don't have to pay rent Brunt of your income is instant while L5 missions is delayed income You don't have to maintain massive industry and logistics You don't have to go 45j to pick up missions than 30j to do them and then 45j to close them. Your LP market is not as volatile as Faction/FW LP Market You don't have to expose all of your income in a logistic ship to move it to the market like WH residents have to. You have visible local at all times with notifications if -sec person jumps in You are close to market hubs, no worries about resupplying Fighters or mods You don't have to worry about getting caught in bubbles while moving between systems like NPC L4 runners have to. You don't have to worry weather that neutral in the system is waiting for you in Relic/Data/DED site You don't have to travel 40j farming Relic/Data sites to make 100-200m You can't be pointed by players because they will get CONCORDED You don't have to maintain a Intel channel and hope people report gangs That just few I can go on for 50 more. So why on earth should you be making more than 0.0/WH/LS residents. I FC'd Incursion fleets and they are not that hard to FC as the incursion runners clinging to their max income no risk Income are claiming...
Why on earth are HS Incursions so easy to do and pay so much more than 0.0 anomalies, LS/NS L4s or WH Combat sites.. If you have the ability to use a maxed out Carrier meaning Carrier 5 and Fighters 5 field 14 Fighters you can do about 40m/20min and that is with ESS at 5% and 0% corp tax running Forsaken Hubs as fast as possible..
This ends up being about 120m/h and about 90m/h for other ships. Which by the way was a fine Income until CCP decided to nerf the Drone regions and L4 mission loot spew. When Dominix was 40m this kind of income was acceptable but now ******* Dominix is 180m ship and that's a useless fleet ship the **** am I going do with a Dominix.
You marketed 0.0 to be this lucrative high risk environment for players but apart from 0.0 anoms and few lucky DED sites there is not much for grunts and what there is there is a better alternative in HS wow. |
isshassia
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 14:33:00 -
[83] - Quote
i know you guys are talking mostly about scout sites and the ncn wall Nerf on assault i think you should also Nerf the tcrc wall in hq's and make all site spawning more balanced across incursions so there are no walls of just one site balancing it out would be better for incursions as a whole & also some make sense to move the spawning of the mom so it only shows up once the incursions goes mobile and it spawn in the staging area instead of the hq system i feel that would make a lot more sense then the current system |
Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
102
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 14:46:00 -
[84] - Quote
Good to see some of this has gone through, however it does appear the simple 'cut vanguards in half because it's easy for us to do' idea isn't quite cutting it, - again mostly because of the kind of force a single player can exert vs the opponents put on the field.
i suggest now as i have before restricting these scout sites to sub BS and BC (BC at largest) this way you can 'account for player strength potential' without resorting to masses of subversion modules, as has been indicated here, NPC ECM is cheaty, fighting cheaty mechanics often not fun, because there's no *pauses to think about wording a bit* "real reason it should be different"
if you want to use ECM i would suggest instead inserting tracking disruption or sensor dampeners (yes, new rat type, but much less frustrating than the cheaty false ECM mechanic) - design focus should be to make this content fun for the largest number of players - right now all i see is it's more of the same that vanguards are.
still, they are better than they were before, but i still don't think this is the direction you should be trying to take them in - uniformity in creative content look and feel often bad....other than that, good stuff, nice to see the world changing for once. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3444
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 14:51:00 -
[85] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:Can you adress my question eariler about spawn times? -- I'd like a clarification.. Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother.. Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window. Which is it?
The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
|
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:07:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours. Awesome.
Still say it would be nice if even at 0% the mom wouldn't spawn for a day or two.. But this is for sure an improvement. |
colera deldios
200
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:19:00 -
[87] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Can you adress my question eariler about spawn times? -- I'd like a clarification.. Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother.. Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window. Which is it? The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours.
Again the question why are you giving Incursion runners more ISK for no Risk... |
PopplerRo
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote: The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours.
With less downtime between spawns killing the incursions more often will be a lot of fun |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:Why are you giving these people more easy ISK at absolutely no risk at all. By what logic does a HS Incursion make more ISK/h than 0.0 Anomalies.
because of blue donut. |
Wedgetail
Helix Pulse Brothers of Tangra
102
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:28:00 -
[90] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:
Again the question why are you giving Incursion runners more ISK for no Risk...
one change at a time, test, compile, test again.
to deliver the kind of change necessary to get a GOOD balanced system back into place will take months to a year (balance in terms of all income streams)
they will get around to it when they decide they have a good enough answer as to how. ease off the repetition pedal a bit they know the imbalance exists, one guy repeating the same idea a dozen times solves nothing. (believe me I'm trying ;) )
personally, i'm just thankful fozzie seems to be dropping his bad habits of trying to make everything absolutely equivalent (see wormhole changes blog) |
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Luscius Uta
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:39:00 -
[91] - Quote
Instead of simply nerfing or removing highsec Incursions like suggested by several people in this thread, I think that a better option would be to do the other thing and buff nullsec Incursions instead, to encourage nullsec people to finish them. They should be consistent with other nullsec PvE content as a high risk, high reward activity. That means not only that they should give between the 3x and 5x the amount of money and LP as highsec Incursions, but nullsec Sansha also should be much more mean than their highsec kinsmen and do some stuff that NPC otherwise don't, such as podding players, hellcamping outposts (along with bubbles of course) and shooting player-owned structures in incursed systems. Also, failing to complete an Incursion in sov-null should result in a loss of sovereignty after Incursion is withdrawn. People hate highsec for various reasons. Mine is the terrible metallic music that plays on and on. |
colera deldios
200
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:20:00 -
[92] - Quote
Luscius Uta wrote:Instead of simply nerfing or removing highsec Incursions like suggested by several people in this thread, I think that a better option would be to do the other thing and buff nullsec Incursions instead, to encourage nullsec people to finish them. They should be consistent with other nullsec PvE content as a high risk, high reward activity. That means not only that they should give between the 3x and 5x the amount of money and LP as highsec Incursions, but nullsec Sansha also should be much more mean than their highsec kinsmen and do some stuff that NPC otherwise don't, such as podding players, hellcamping outposts (along with bubbles of course) and shooting player-owned structures in incursed systems. Also, failing to complete an Incursion in sov-null should result in a loss of sovereignty after Incursion is withdrawn.
No one want's Null sec incursions. They stop PVP and they disable the local infrastructure. Also the changes you suggested are incredibly stupid. |
Nya Kittenheart
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:20:00 -
[93] - Quote
"CCP FoxFour " wrote:The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours.
It's nice and i won't complain about it but should also adress the rage popping MOM issue... Some sort of token system to unlock MOM gate would be nice , somehow a system where you should gather tokens from sites to unlock the gate would be nice, and would reward the community who has made the effort to unlock the gate . It' would prevent early MOM popping from disruptive community who are unable to win a contest but take all the others communities as hostages. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15608
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:34:00 -
[94] - Quote
WOW. that was interesting to say the least. I lost an Ishtar to a scout site... under guardian reps. I was immobile because I didn't take the site seriously, and got eaten.
I don't know what's what, or if the triggers were random, but I found them.
bottom line: that was a lot of fun. HOWEVER. it's not lucrative enough to repeat.
here are pastebins of my logs. (not all of my clients generated one. don't know why).
Ishtar [KIA]
Ishtar
Golem President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
|
CCP RedDawn
C C P C C P Alliance
479
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:39:00 -
[95] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:WOW. that was interesting to say the least. I lost an Ishtar to a scout site... under guardian reps. I was immobile because I didn't take the site seriously, and got eaten. I don't know what's what, or if the triggers were random, but I found them. bottom line: that was a lot of fun. HOWEVER. it's not lucrative enough to repeat. here are pastebins of my logs. (not all of my clients generated one. don't know why). Ishtar [KIA]IshtarGolem
Rewards are still in flux in regards to balance. Expect more changes based on feedback! Team Space Glitter |
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Oddsodz
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
95
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:43:00 -
[96] - Quote
Hello all, I would like to make suggestion on what to do with the "STAGING" sites of incursions.
I would like to see them adjusted for difficulty so that newish players in Destroyers could run them. Sure change the payout on LP rewards to what is suitable. The thing with incursions is that a lot of the community around them are very much a "BRING BLING OR YOU DONT GET IN", They is very discouraging to new players as they have no real way of getting that sort of BLING with out months are play (sure some will do it, But not everybody is a scammer/mad PvPer/ but Meh).
So my idea is that the sites be adjusted so that a fleet of 5 pilots with 2 logi frigs and 3 Destroyers and or assault frigs are the best combo to do the sites. I would also make it so that the sites do not allow ships above Destroyers (t2 Destroyer can also use the sites) to enter. The reason for this restriction is to promote PvP at a cheapish level in 0.0 and Lowsec.
This change would then encourage small corps in all parts of space to go run the sites as a team. And not get pushed out by the big community's that all want you to fly BLING that you don't have.
The sites do not have to pay out that much. In fact I would make them very poor for ISK and better for LP. And have that scale up alot as you move to Low and 0.0
This could be a boon for lowsec and 0.0. The upshot is that newish players could get in on the ISK, And also if done right more ships in space in Lowsec and 0.0. And we all know that if players are undocked,. Things go boom. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15608
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote: Rewards are still in flux in regards to balance. Expect more changes based on feedback!
I hope you're going a lot higher.
Had to use Saana, due to bad Gallente standings on half of me.
Gang was:
3 ishtars 2 guardians 1 Loki 1 Proteus 1 Golem Claymore link booster Damnation link booster (all four warfare categories, full strength with mindlinks)
The ranges are pretty far spread, between 10 and... 55? 70km? so I don't see a marauder soloing this site. not a Golem, anyway. Tank was fine, but the kiting NPCs are simply out of range. I'm not sure 1000DPS would cut it. I would like to try a paladin, but a Golem is the only marauder I'm skilled in.
There are far better options for PVE and ISK. off the top of my head, Enemies Abound will yield 40-50 million ISK in tags per mission, and three or four of those can be lined up in a day using as many agents. So the process is take 1 marauder, play for 1-1.5 hours and make 160-200 million ISK and call it a day.
compared to this new scout site, which is harder, level 4s are still a far better idea.
this new scout site has to be worth more, and to more people. this clears level 4 difficulty by a bit, so the opportunity cost is 5 pilots forgoing 75 mil an hour in them (due to the difficulty, their income should clear that).
as for how fast they can complete a scout site, you might be thinking "they can do four an hour" but that rate requires some bling ships, either faction BS or marauder. a Bil easy. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
238
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:56:00 -
[98] - Quote
@Rain6637- Why do you say that the spawn ranges would prevent a Golem from solo'ing? In my experience a Golem is the most comfortable across those ranges out of the Marauders, Vargurs and Paladins have their ammo switches of course but the Golem can load Navy's or Furies and never be out of range. Unless you are using torpedoes, in which case the abysmal range will severely limit your effective engagement envelope.
Edit: What kind of site times were you getting with your fleet comp? Your post wasn't explicit but I gather that 15min sites would require some bling and practice. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15608
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:03:00 -
[99] - Quote
my torps. I have a feeling they were kiting my torp range on purpose. the NPCs know these things
yeah i'm not going to spend 2 hours chewing on a scout site using cruises. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Cult of Mooby
238
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:08:00 -
[100] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:my torps. I have a feeling they were kiting my torp range on purpose. the NPCs know these things
yeah i'm not going to spend 2 hours chewing on a scout site using cruises. What kind of site times were you getting with your fleet comp? Your post wasn't explicit but I gather that 15min sites would require some bling and practice.
In my experience with a Golem, Fury CM's are only beat by Rage Torps when it comes to damage and the edge in application lies with the CM's as well as the range. Also, do you think a Golem would need to stay in Bastion? If not, you could take advantage of the reduction in 100MN MWD activation cost and go mobile, that might make torps more viable. Just at thought, I haven't tried it. |
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Sven Viko VIkolander
Imperium Fleet
263
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:20:00 -
[101] - Quote
I agree with the suggestions to balance these sites around ship restrictions that benefit newer players or players new to incursions, so fleets of t1 battlecruisers etc. And hey, with the huge push toward frigate level content in EVE, why not have different versions of these sites, some in which only frigates are allowed? It would be incredibly fun to run some challenging incursion sites in a fleet of 5 tech 1 frigates, something new players could very quickly join in on and something older players could do that does not involve a lot of risk.
On another note, someday, it sure would be nice to get a type of HS incursion where open player combat was allowed inside the site (e.g., attacking other players only gives one a yellow flag). This would add a new type of PVP to HS, be a nice conflict driver, and, if the payout was high enough, would encourage a new level of competition for sites. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15608
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 17:39:00 -
[102] - Quote
according to my logs I was in that site for 30 mins (15:42 - 16:13). you could do it a lot faster, I'm just not familiar with Incursions and basically went in blind. I will tell you the eve-survival for Propaganda Cluster is completely wrong now. I had no spawn control whatsoever. pretty sure I had 3 spawns out at the same time.
I sent the golem alone initially, then needed the backup due to range. the loki had webs and target painters, and the ishtars were used as tanky drone haulers, each with a web and TP. all of my drones were assisted to the golem, which was immune to jams in bastion.
as a whole, the gang had...
3k DPS, possibly 3.2k DPS in EM (Torps and drones--mostly Sentries) and... 6 Target painters (2 Republic Fleet on the loki, 1on the golem, 1 on each Ishtar) 2 loki webs (45 km warfare link boosted Fed Navy) 4 normal webs (Ishtar/ Golem)
guardians and Ishtars were 10MN Afterburner, armor tanked, with around 80-90k EHP. as for the exact fit, its purpose was just tank and DPS, to get a relative feel of it...
Ishtars were trimarked, 2 Drone Damage Amps, 1600mm Plate, an EX and EANM, 2 Omni directional links, (tracking speed script) 1 web, 1 TP 10MN AB 2x drone link augs
...pure drone haulers.
Loki and Proteus are bricks, Proteus was 900 DPS blaster fit for things that got close, but I never used it.
if there's one thing that makes the site tricky, it's the ECM. incoming DPS was fine. I died because I thought it would be a joke and didn't bother orbiting with the Ishtars. I was going to continue on to a Vanguard, but I think my pride has taken enough of a beating for today. lol. I'll get in a RR BS setup and see about Vanguards tomorrow.
the NPC neuts were wasted on the Ishtars, which were mostly passive. even when they were on the golem it was fine.
I might also try scouts again with some T1 things. not too optimistic though.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:Rain6637 wrote:my torps. I have a feeling they were kiting my torp range on purpose. the NPCs know these things
yeah i'm not going to spend 2 hours chewing on a scout site using cruises. What kind of site times were you getting with your fleet comp? Your post wasn't explicit but I gather that 15min sites would require some bling and practice. In my experience with a Golem, Fury CM's are only beat by Rage Torps when it comes to damage and the edge in application lies with the CM's as well as the range. Also, do you think a Golem would need to stay in Bastion? If not, you could take advantage of the reduction in 100MN MWD activation cost and go mobile, that might make torps more viable. Just at thought, I haven't tried it. jams were full-time on the golem. if you go alone, you need a marauder for bastion and ECM immunity. absolute must. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
KanashiiKami
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:42:00 -
[103] - Quote
WOW afktarsss ... WUT ??? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15608
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:46:00 -
[104] - Quote
yump, purpose built President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
194
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:51:00 -
[105] - Quote
Will the scout sites spawn in lowsec? |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
144
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:53:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys, Hope you are all having a wonderful summer. We have some small, iterative, changes for Incursions that we are hoping to release with Hyperion and would love your feedback on them.
- Assault systems for Incursions will now never be just NCNs. At most NCNs can only take up 50% of the sites.
- The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered.
- Scout site rewards, and spawns, have been re-balanced.
The scout site changes are what we would really love some feedback on. We have attempted to up their reward (text changes in the client still to come) and up their difficulty. The idea is that if you run these sites with 5 people they should be profitable to run, but not as profitable as Vanguards. While we have given them a balance pass, we think they probably need a bit more of a buff. Before we do that though we would love your feedback on how they are now. When offering feedback on the scout sites if you could let us know what kind of fleet you ran it with and how long it was taking you to complete them broken down by which site you were running. Hope you enjoy and thanks for the feedback guys.
If you could look at the mechanics of Niarja Myelen spawning in HQ sites, it'd be greatly appreciated. We've been having issues with Niarjas jamming stuff before they appear on grid / overview. |
Gettz Squall
modro Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:31:00 -
[107] - Quote
Just please dont nerf hisec incursion . |
Gettz Squall
modro Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:37:00 -
[108] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:[quote=Sniper Smith][quote=CCP FoxFour]... Again the question why are you giving Incursion runners more ISK for no Risk...
Why are so mad with hisec incursion?, just roll a toon and join the community . There are a risk for running hisec incursion. not to mentioned that we all need to queue to join the fleet and contest with other incursion community too |
colera deldios
201
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:55:00 -
[109] - Quote
Gettz Squall wrote:colera deldios wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:[quote=Sniper Smith][quote=CCP FoxFour]... Again the question why are you giving Incursion runners more ISK for no Risk... Why are so mad with hisec incursion?, just roll a toon and join the community . There are a risk for running hisec incursion. not to mentioned that we all need to queue to join the fleet and contest with other incursion community too
What ? |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3380
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:03:00 -
[110] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Can you adress my question eariler about spawn times? -- I'd like a clarification.. Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother.. Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window. Which is it? The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours.
This is a really, really bad idea.
Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.
Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346564 - a proposal to overhaul the Logistics skill https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
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Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1158
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:11:00 -
[111] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
This is a really, really bad idea.
Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.
Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.
So you really don't understand how Incursions work at all?
Shortened timers means less incentive to leave it up, so you will see contests leading to a Mom killing spree. This forces all runners into their multi billion ISK Battleships and Orcas and out into the .5 choke points as they move 20 to 40 jumps, possibly every day now, exposing them to potential ganks and mistakes, usually without the community there to protect them.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
colera deldios
202
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:28:00 -
[112] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
This is a really, really bad idea.
Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.
Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.
So you really don't understand how Incursions work at all? Shortened timers means less incentive to leave it up, so you will see contests leading to a Mom killing spree. This forces all runners into their multi billion ISK Battleships and Orcas and out into the .5 choke points as they move 20 to 40 jumps, possibly every day now, exposing them to potential ganks and mistakes, usually without the community there to protect them.
So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner. |
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:47:00 -
[113] - Quote
colera deldios wrote: So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.
Pfft, why put that much effort into it? Train a BR alt using dual character training on your nullsec character account. Autopilot your T2 dual buffer tanked hull (you can get it up to about 200k without much effort) AFK through hisec, no problem. Kick off your AP, go grab some food, and then move your bling in a BR, and focus all your attention on that. My hull is only worth ~1b, most hisec incursion runners have fits worth 4-5b+. I'm far more worried about my fit then my hull. |
Gettz Squall
modro Circle-Of-Two
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 23:03:00 -
[114] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:Goldiiee wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
This is a really, really bad idea.
Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict.
Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting.
So you really don't understand how Incursions work at all? Shortened timers means less incentive to leave it up, so you will see contests leading to a Mom killing spree. This forces all runners into their multi billion ISK Battleships and Orcas and out into the .5 choke points as they move 20 to 40 jumps, possibly every day now, exposing them to potential ganks and mistakes, usually without the community there to protect them. So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.
Seems like u are the moron |
colera deldios
202
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 00:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
Plaid Rabbit wrote:colera deldios wrote: So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.
Pfft, why put that much effort into it? Train a BR alt using dual character training on your nullsec character account. Autopilot your T2 dual buffer tanked hull (you can get it up to about 200k without much effort) AFK through hisec, no problem. Kick off your AP, go grab some food, and then move your bling in a BR, and focus all your attention on that. My hull is only worth ~1b, most hisec incursion runners have fits worth 4-5b+. I'm far more worried about my fit then my hull.
@Gettz Squall
Unless you are utterly ******** you won't get ganked in a blockade runner in HS. A Tengu, Legion or T2 hauler and you can safely carry your cargo I passed 0.5 choke points with my Tengu setup for moving things 9 times moving total of 25b ISK and never got ganked.
Or simply take your ship and do a courier contract of your fit to Red Frog freight with collateral problem solved. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1158
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 00:28:00 -
[116] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:Plaid Rabbit wrote:colera deldios wrote: So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.
Pfft, why put that much effort into it? Train a BR alt using dual character training on your nullsec character account. Autopilot your T2 dual buffer tanked hull (you can get it up to about 200k without much effort) AFK through hisec, no problem. Kick off your AP, go grab some food, and then move your bling in a BR, and focus all your attention on that. My hull is only worth ~1b, most hisec incursion runners have fits worth 4-5b+. I'm far more worried about my fit then my hull. @Gettz Squall Unless you are utterly ******** you won't get ganked in a blockade runner in HS. A Tengu, Legion or T2 hauler and you can safely carry your cargo I passed 0.5 choke points with my Tengu setup for moving things 9 times moving total of 25b ISK and never got ganked. Or simply take your ship and do a courier contract of your fit to Red Frog freight with collateral problem solved. OK, so the point, before you got side-tracked, was 300 to 400 incursion runners (All in BR's if you will) move 1.5 to 10 trillion ISK worth of modules hulls and cargo, when they get displaced and have to move every day, since there is only a 1 day break between killing everything and a new spawn.
Therefore the notion that shortened spawn timers reduced conflict and competition for ISK is; false
Thank you for playing and adding a distraction about ship fitting, eve auto piloting, general ad hominem and several other topics not about the new Scout site mechanics and whether they are good as is, or in need of more tweaking.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15611
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 01:16:00 -
[117] - Quote
Did another Scout... went with active resists and less buffer... was better, and more comfortable. Between guessing the triggers correctly and having higher resists, it was a lot easier. still took half an hour though.
I've reclaimed some of my confidence after the Ishtar loss in the first run--enough to try a Vanguard tomorrow, possibly tonight. I think a Kronos or Vindicator would be good, as an easy button, I dunno. a turret-based setup so that my DPS isn't vulnerable in the form of drones.
was in Saana again, full red incursion bar, apparently means stuff is reduced, not sure exactly how much.
I also went ahead and plugged in Slave sets and all the 6% implants available. cuz I didn't feel like dying. so it was easier, but I had unrealistic implants in my head (I don't use stuff like that on TQ).
Neuts were fine, DPS was fine, it just took a long time. I'd like to use completely T1 / cheaper ships but I don't see 5x T1 -anything- clearing the DPS and utility and reps efficiently.
I could use a set of nightmares for scouts, but 1.2 - 1.5 Billion ISK per ship in a scout site doesn't really make sense, you know?
Twitch Video of me sucking
Ishtar 1 Logs
Ishtar 2 Logs
Ishtar 3 Logs
Dominix Logs My logi cap battery which I made use of during several logi jams.
Guardian 1 Logs
Guardian 2 Logs
Loki Logs
Gang Fits
Gang Resists
I know. I'm bad. that's why I use links and bring ten+ of me everywhere
Does this mean the payout limit is strictly 5?
Quote:[ 2014.08.13 00:01:45 ] (notify) Unfortunately only the pilots in the top 5 contributors are eligible for rewards.
after this second run, my verdict is once again: raise the payout number to 7 or higher. I'm pretty sure I'll find it still takes a long time with a complete T1 setup. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
KanashiiKami
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 02:04:00 -
[118] - Quote
i tried a solo rattle fit
1) first off, when i try a scout site. vespa t2 drones bugged in a rattlesnake. the drones operating panel wont show. i have to release them from cargo panel. and once released, they die almost immediately, like 5 seconds
2) the UI bugs up for rattlesnake on first warp (in the same scenario with all my vespas kinda insta died). while being hit, no damage shows on UI until the BS is pooped. and it seems the invul did not work even though it shows it is active. the ratty was about 76k ehp. on 2nd try, the UI worked. propaganda scout site btw
3) antems 120km away in sites meant for new players, that cant be right. i suppose these should be close combat waves for newer people with lesser nav skills
4) another drone bug? although focus fire is ON, my drones split up and they go gaga over every "red cross". this time using valkyries t2.
5) the jamming is really bad. but expected of arnons, maybe they are bit too much for scout sites?
6) i think these site should have some more tamas or even augas. there should be some more blap factor in sanshas.
7) i think scout sites are triple spider tankable. this would of course make boxers happy. 3 mymidon, spider, drones, some blasters n rails. or drakes n missiles. even DDA. but arnons maybe would kill it. WUT ??? |
KanashiiKami
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 02:13:00 -
[119] - Quote
i dont think scout site should be moulded into a "farmable" site. LP should be kept low to deter afkTAR syndrome. these are indeed for new people to see what is inside incursions. @ 3.5m a site im very sure there are already players with afkTAR farming mode already turned on.
but to be honest, lv3/4 PVE corps will ditch mission to farm scouts. it only takes 3-4 ships, they dont really need a FC, maybe not even a booster. it is spider tankable. its got ISK ! and it will get them to upgrade into VG after about a 100 cycles or so.
im not sure if ECM aggro trick works here, if it does, 1 BS tank + 2 osprey could do the job me thinks WUT ??? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15611
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 02:24:00 -
[120] - Quote
The name calling is fair, man, just remember I don't do Incursions. I'm just curious about the hype, and placing myself here to get a feel for this new Scout site. My fits aren't practical, but after using it I can tell you how the site feels relative to other PVE. I'm well aware that I would get outclassed by regular Incursion groups. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1469
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 05:00:00 -
[121] - Quote
KanashiiKami wrote: however me thinks if scout are now truly moulded as a stepping stone to VG, then CCP should think LP = ZERO, but ISK = 1.5x
To put things in comparison. 3.5 Mil isk is well, 3.5 mil isk. 400LP per site = 400k per site at average concord LP values. This isn't some crazy pirate faction LP, this is concord LP, it's hard to move at over 1k and requires bucket loads of tags, which last I knew the market was too high on to make a profit on the LP stores with them. (Tags in LP stores are a separate issue really and overly limit some LP items). So that 400 LP only adds another 11% or so value.
Doing these sites with 5 Marauders, which are not starting ships but high skill ships which cost more than pirate BS takes 10 minutes a site. That means 5-6 sites an hour (Remembering warp times between sites.) Even if we say 6 sites an hour, that means a massive..... 24 Million Isk/Hr per pilot including LP. Even if we somehow drop that to 5 Minutes per site, that's still only 48/Hour.
Pray tell where exactly this massive farming is going to occur? Null beats the pants off that isk rate, with far less value risked, and incursions are not constant, and can be contested, and if you have the bling to drop site times, you are at plenty of PvP risk also.
Quite simply, I can't see how these sites are going to be remotely worth it if 5 Marauders can only earn 24 Million/Hour including LP each. They need to go back to the drawing board on scout sites, and make them different somehow. Make them about small ships, say.... Cruiser Max. And make them reasonably Isk/Hr competitive. VG's I'd leave as is, since Vanguards often did have heavy elite troops in historical terms. Make Assaults BC max, and redesign all the sites to be about mobile BC fleets (Obviously HAC's, T3's & Logi's would still be involved) and ship speed combined with good tank. Fast strike in and back out somehow. Then you have most ship sizes involved in incursions, Frigates/Destroyers might still get left behind a little but Cruisers are highly accessible to a new player. |
Skyler Hawk
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 07:13:00 -
[122] - Quote
I was able to run a few Scout sites in a solo Paladin at 100% sansha influence (i.e. max system penalties) by MJDing off the warp-in point and sniping things as they approached. Each site took 25-30 minutes to complete, so I guess it'd be 5-6 minutes for a group of 5 using the same fit and tactic (maybe less because higher dps would more rapidly overcome the repping of some of the NPCs). However, it's hard to see what sort of player these sites are geared towards. If they're for newer players with less SP and less tricked-out ships, then they'd almost certainly need a lot more than 5-6 minutes per site because they wouldn't be using marauders and so would have trouble with ewar, worse dps, and much more fragile local tanks. Conversely, anyone who can fly a well-fit marauder could make far more ISK doing vanguards or HQs.
I also think the NPC mix was a bit off - there were a number of sniping NPCs that orbited at 120-140 km and others that orbited at 10-60 km, so you'd need a mix of snipers and short-ranged ships. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but it seems to be more organisation and a tighter fleet comp than you'd need for VGs, which is odd. I got around this by bringing a mobile depot and switching between tachs and mega pulses on the fly.
The Paladin fit was:
[Paladin, incursion scout] Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Sensor Booster II
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Bastion Module I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Large Energy Metastasis Adjuster II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Hobgoblin II x5 Hobgoblin II x10 |
Sean Sonnach
Tain Bo Cuailnge
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 08:04:00 -
[123] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:@CCP FoxFour
You should be nerfing HS Incursions to the point where the avg. isk/hour is bellow that of 0.0 Instead of giving them even more ISK at no RISK. If you need me to list 30 reasons why HS Incursions should not make as much as 0.0 let me know.
Mara Tessidar wrote:Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space.
Thick as two short planks.
Incursions spawn in HS/LS/Null - so improving incursions makes null sec more profitable than HS if you have the balls to run them there.
The difference between incursions and most other PVE phew is it really makes people play in fleets, which is one of the best aspects of PVE in the game. Not everyone wants to be a null bear, alone in an empty back end system, ratting risk free 99% of the time, after the first hour of running to cover your hull cost.
These seem like very positive steps. I have believed for a long time that making scout sites viable will lead to a lot more people running incursions in LS and null. Most excellent. I will try to get stats on scouts and times this weekend if i get time, but as you in CCP know, very few people run them so it will take time to get reasonable info. |
colera deldios
203
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:30:00 -
[124] - Quote
Sean Sonnach wrote:colera deldios wrote:@CCP FoxFour
You should be nerfing HS Incursions to the point where the avg. isk/hour is bellow that of 0.0 Instead of giving them even more ISK at no RISK. If you need me to list 30 reasons why HS Incursions should not make as much as 0.0 let me know. Mara Tessidar wrote:Remove incursions from highsec or make them less profitable than being in nullsec/lowsec/wormhole space. Thick as two short planks. Incursions spawn in HS/LS/Null - so improving incursions makes null sec more profitable than HS if you have the balls to run them there. The difference between incursions and most other PVE phew is it really makes people play in fleets, which is one of the best aspects of PVE in the game. Not everyone wants to be a null bear, alone in an empty back end system, ratting risk free 99% of the time, after the first hour of running to cover your hull cost. These seem like very positive steps. I have believed for a long time that making scout sites viable will lead to a lot more people running incursions in LS and null. Most excellent. I will try to get stats on scouts and times this weekend if i get time, but as you in CCP know, very few people run them so it will take time to get reasonable info.
Yea not those assumptions are wrong. Noone wan't Incursions in 0.0 because they prevent people from roaming/pvping and they disable local infrastructure no to mention it''s a poor income and only comes around every few months. |
colera deldios
203
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:32:00 -
[125] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:colera deldios wrote:Plaid Rabbit wrote:colera deldios wrote: So don't be a ******** moron take your ship in stabs and then come back for your equipment in a blockade runner.
Pfft, why put that much effort into it? Train a BR alt using dual character training on your nullsec character account. Autopilot your T2 dual buffer tanked hull (you can get it up to about 200k without much effort) AFK through hisec, no problem. Kick off your AP, go grab some food, and then move your bling in a BR, and focus all your attention on that. My hull is only worth ~1b, most hisec incursion runners have fits worth 4-5b+. I'm far more worried about my fit then my hull. @Gettz Squall Unless you are utterly ******** you won't get ganked in a blockade runner in HS. A Tengu, Legion or T2 hauler and you can safely carry your cargo I passed 0.5 choke points with my Tengu setup for moving things 9 times moving total of 25b ISK and never got ganked. Or simply take your ship and do a courier contract of your fit to Red Frog freight with collateral problem solved. OK, so the point, before you got side-tracked, was 300 to 400 incursion runners (All in BR's if you will) move 1.5 to 10 trillion ISK worth of modules hulls and cargo, when they get displaced and have to move every day, since there is only a 1 day break between killing everything and a new spawn. Therefore the notion that shortened spawn timers reduced conflict and competition for ISK is; falseThank you for playing and adding a distraction about ship fitting, eve auto piloting, general ad hominem and several other topics not about the new Scout site mechanics and whether they are good as is, or in need of more tweaking.
You make better Income than 0.0 and LS residents at no risk at all. Oh god forbid you actually have to move a ship every now and then oh sweet jesus the agony of having to move something twice or dear god it it's so hard striping my fit and making a courier contract to RFF and moving my ship at the same time oh my god that is so hard to do.
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K0NTR4
Roid Vaporisation Inc. Aeterna Anima
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:29:00 -
[126] - Quote
I Had finished a few Sites with a Maurauder Mix, that means Pala, Vargur, Kronos. Means only 3 Maurauder in the Site. We fittet shortrange Weapons, Bastion, MJD and MWD. For Boni we had full Info, Armor, Siege and Skirmish Boost.
Took around 15 minutes for a Site.
Even with MJD and MWD the main problem were the NPC's with high orbit.
So Antems with 140km orbit if you let them go so far. Or Vylade with around 120km and an insane Tank even if it get shoot from 3 Maurauders.
Rest is standard Jel Rhomben are weeker than Eystur. Raa Thalamus is weeker then Romi. Lirsautton put out 1,4k volley damage's (in propaganda cluster) In the Distress Beacon we had a spawn with 4 Mara's (no screenshot sadly) And Arnon's can Jam Multiple targets, All Maurauder in Bastion Mode with drones out, only 2 of my drones were able to attack. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:37:00 -
[127] - Quote
colera deldios wrote:
You make better Income than 0.0 and LS residents at no risk at all.
so only "nullbears" are authorized to make isk with no risk at all? try a little thing: open your map and look at stats for player ship and capsule lost. how many null systems not involved in great null battles (so where a bear has no place at all) have losses? how many hi systems? null is risk free, you are under your overlord protection or you arent there. low is at high consensual risk, you go there to blow stuff up and get blown up hi is at non consensual risk, people will blow you up you want it or not. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:55:00 -
[128] - Quote
Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem.
The main problem with incursions is that there is no loot and no salvaging to do. What this means is that these sites are just chain run so that all time spent running incursions is generating large amounts of server created isk as opposed to isk gained from other players.
For example when running level 4 missions a player earns a small percentage of his/her isk from bounties and mission rewards and also in most cases spends a fair amount of time cleaning up the mission and selling loot / minerals from reprocessed loot to other players.
Running anoms is a similar thing where you run a few then clean up then run a few more. In the distant past I think I probably made more isk selling the ships that I built from melting anom loot than I did from the bounty payouts.
To compound this problem you guys recently cut in half the amount of minerals gotten from melting mission / anom loot so I am sure a fairly large percentage of players will stop looting / salvaging and just speed run sites adding further to the imbalance of server generated isk versus isk gained from other players.
In case you guys don't see the problem isk coming into the game from NPC payouts adds to the total isk pool in game and thus increases prices on everything in game. Now I understand the concept of isk sinks and how this last "industrial" expansion added large isk sinks through the increased costs associated with setting up jobs however I feel this is a less ideal way to go about things as adding "taxes" to the game seems to sap some of the fun.
I really think you guys need to contemplate more the amount of time that players spend earning isk from the server versus isk from other players as well as how much time is needed to be spent from various activities to earn a ship loss.
Since NPC payouts are static when mudflation occurs and prices increase that means players that earn the bulk of their income from NPC sources have to spend a higher percentage of their game time earning isk to pay for PvP losses. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:36:00 -
[129] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem. right, a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h broke the economy, while there are people earning hundred of BILLIONS out there. first of all, incursions are limited, there just so many sites which can be run by just so many people. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:39:00 -
[130] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Quite simply, I can't see how these sites are going to be remotely worth it if 5 Marauders can only earn 24 Million/Hour including LP each. They need to go back to the drawing board on scout sites, and make them different somehow. Make them about small ships, say.... Cruiser Max. And make them reasonably Isk/Hr competitive. VG's I'd leave as is, since Vanguards often did have heavy elite troops in historical terms. Make Assaults BC max, and redesign all the sites to be about mobile BC fleets (Obviously HAC's, T3's & Logi's would still be involved) and ship speed combined with good tank. Fast strike in and back out somehow. Then you have most ship sizes involved in incursions, Frigates/Destroyers might still get left behind a little but Cruisers are highly accessible to a new player.
As incursions are now on TQ T3's and logis are used quite a bit so I don't see how changing it to cruiser only makes it much more accessible to newer players. Now making them frig and dessie only sites to eliminate T3's and logis would make is so a 2 month old player could run these in a T2 frig.
I think really cost is more of a barrier for newer players than anything. Few newer players know how to earn the isk to pay for dead space and faction fit T3s, T2s and faction ships. Yes incursions can pay out enough to make it worth it to use them but if you can't buy one in the first place and no one will let you in fleet without one then you are kind of dead in the water.
If you want to make these more accessible to newer players I think you have to make cheaper ships more of a viable option so that they can find fleets and the only way I see that happening is to make incursion low / null sec only.
However while I have run high sec incursions I've not run low / null sec ones so I don't even know what people currently fly in them or how hard it is to get into fleet currently with a cheap ship so I could be way off base here.
If anyone reading this who flys low / null sec incursions regularly could give a description of what people typically fly in them and how easy it is to get a fleet if you are in a T2 fit T1 ship that would be appreciated. |
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:51:00 -
[131] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem. right, a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h broke the economy, while there are people earning hundred of BILLIONS out there. first of all, incursions are limited, there just so many sites which can be run by just so many people.
First of all who is earning hundreds of Billions per hour out there and what activity are they doing to accomplish this?
I'm not sure what you are hopping to accomplish by comparing a rate ( isk per hour ) to a static number ( hundreds of Billions ).
I also think you missed the point. It's not so much the raw amount of isk / hour potential earnings as it is the source of the isk. You seem to have completely missed the point of the post I made or got all butt hurt when I questioned your cash cow and stopped reading past the first paragraph and decided to rage post.
|
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:14:00 -
[132] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem. right, a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h broke the economy, while there are people earning hundred of BILLIONS out there. first of all, incursions are limited, there just so many sites which can be run by just so many people. First of all who is earning hundreds of Billions per hour out there and what activity are they doing to accomplish this? first: were did you read the "per hour"? second: you still didnt explain how something so limited in scope and number of involved players can break the economy. there's a finite number of incursions that can be running at the same time, each of those can have a finite number of sites at the same time and even if you drag it on by not shooting moms its duration is finite. each of those sites have a fixed number of maximum ships that can enter and a fixed payout - even when one of these sites get contended only the winning fleet gets the payout. no way in heck this can even jiggle eve economy, lets not talk about "break" it. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:20:00 -
[133] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: As incursions are now on TQ T3's and logis are used quite a bit so I don't see how changing it to cruiser only makes it much more accessible to newer players. Now making them frig and dessie only sites to eliminate T3's and logis would make is so a 2 month old player could run these in a T2 frig. .
the same would happen with pirate fregates and such. anything that can help low isk - low sp players do something would help more high isk - high sp ones. they solved this problem in high sec ded 3-4 by excluding t3 ships, the only solution that can keep eve players from using ultra costly/blingy ships to min-max wathever ccp throw at them is to stop those ships at the door. but I dont think its a good solution, you just have to accept that older players will min-max any pve content at the cost of newbies. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:30:00 -
[134] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem. right, a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h broke the economy, while there are people earning hundred of BILLIONS out there. first of all, incursions are limited, there just so many sites which can be run by just so many people. First of all who is earning hundreds of Billions per hour out there and what activity are they doing to accomplish this? first: were did you read the "per hour"? second: you still didnt explain how something so limited in scope and number of involved players can break the economy. there's a finite number of incursions that can be running at the same time, each of those can have a finite number of sites at the same time and even if you drag it on by not shooting moms its duration is finite. each of those sites have a fixed number of maximum ships that can enter and a fixed payout - even when one of these sites get contended only the winning fleet gets the payout. no way in heck this can even jiggle eve economy, lets not talk about "break" it.
go back up and reread your initial post that I commented on. You said "a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h".
As far as you limited scope comment it's not as limited as you make it seem when sites are completed new ones spawn and when an incursion completes a new incursion spawns.
Just because it may be limited in nature does not mean it has no effect on the game economy.
As far as my original comment you are again missing the point that all isk in not equal and when you introduce a new source of server generated isk without introducing an isk sink you offset that balance and mudflation occurs.
Also I am of the oppinion that most of the things that CCP has done since the original balance offset has served to only make things worse not better.
If you dont' understand the difference between server generated isk and isk gotten from other players or the concept of mudflation I do not have the room here nor do I care to take the time to explain it to you especially when google will help you find resources that will do a much better job than I could. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:54:00 -
[135] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:
go back up and reread your initial post that I commented on. You said "a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h".
read better the same post and thell me where's the "billions/hour" comment. if you assume something, you know what they say about people who assume things?
Quote: As far as you limited scope comment it's not as limited as you make it seem when sites are completed new ones spawn and when an incursion completes a new incursion spawns.
Just because it may be limited in nature does not mean it has no effect on the game economy.
in an economy like eve, where people losing trilions in ships like the last bruhuaua in null make only a small blink in trit sales, it is completely meaningless. just bother to look at available data instead of just assuming (again...).
Quote: As far as my original comment you are again missing the point that all isk in not equal and when you introduce a new source of server generated isk without introducing an isk sink you offset that balance and mudflation occurs.
and would you care to post your statistical data about how these changes would impact eve economy in the short, mid and long range? where's your data coming from? you are just jumping the "there are a few guys in hisec making money, lets chase them out of MY game!" bandwagon, its making you looking jelous as hek, but feel free if you want. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:54:00 -
[136] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote: As incursions are now on TQ T3's and logis are used quite a bit so I don't see how changing it to cruiser only makes it much more accessible to newer players. Now making them frig and dessie only sites to eliminate T3's and logis would make is so a 2 month old player could run these in a T2 frig. .
the same would happen with pirate fregates and such. anything that can help low isk - low sp players do something would help more high isk - high sp ones. they solved this problem in high sec ded 3-4 by excluding t3 ships, the only solution that can keep eve players from using ultra costly/blingy ships to min-max wathever ccp throw at them is to stop those ships at the door. but I dont think its a good solution, you just have to accept that older players will min-max any pve content at the cost of newbies.
What you say here is just not true. They just made drone changes to have a more linear increase with benefit from skill and more base damage without increasing all level 5 damage so that is one example of a change which helps low SP players without helping high SP players.
I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"
However none of that is really important here as I was commenting to Nevyn on how what he suggested doesn't really change the options currently open to newbies now and how the real barrier for entry was not skills but availability to fleet and isk. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:00:00 -
[137] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"
again with the "if we nerf high sec enough its players will come here" bull high sec players dont like playing in null of they would be already there. if you remove all content from high sec, you just remove any interest for those players to play eve. and if you lose enough players your nullbears wont have enough money to keep paying ccp servers and people. would you like a 150$ montly subscription?
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:21:00 -
[138] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:
go back up and reread your initial post that I commented on. You said "a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h".
read better the same post and thell me where's the "billions/hour" comment. if you assume something, you know what they say about people who assume things? Quote: As far as you limited scope comment it's not as limited as you make it seem when sites are completed new ones spawn and when an incursion completes a new incursion spawns.
Just because it may be limited in nature does not mean it has no effect on the game economy.
in an economy like eve, where people losing trilions in ships like the last bruhuaua in null make only a small blink in trit sales, it is completely meaningless. just bother to look at available data instead of just assuming (again...). Quote: As far as my original comment you are again missing the point that all isk in not equal and when you introduce a new source of server generated isk without introducing an isk sink you offset that balance and mudflation occurs.
and would you care to post your statistical data about how these changes would impact eve echonomy in the short, mid and long range? where's your data coming from? you are just jumping the "there are a few guys in hisec making money, lets chase them out of MY game!" bandwagon, its making you looking jelous as hek, but feel free if you want.
I'm not sure if it's me being poor at expressing my point or if you are just reading too fast. My original point what that you were comparing a rate to a bulk number. No you did not say hundreds of Billions of isk per hour but you did say hundreds of Millions of isk per hour and I was pointing out that comparing those two is meaningless.
Once again you are comparing apples to oranges with your trit reference.
So now we move on to due to you not understand the base concept that I have put forth you want to divert the conversation to my lack of having any statistical data of which CCP holds tight to it's chest like the trade secret that it is. No I do not have any statistical data on this nor do I have any computer models to predict specific numerical outcomes and if I did you would have seen the title "CCP" before my name. However just because I don't work for CCP and as such do not have access to the specific market data that would be needed does not mean that I do not understand the basic concepts of how in game economies work nor does it invalidate my opinion on the matter.
I'm not really sure what you think I'm jealous of. I've got the skill points and isk to do what ever I want in game. If I want to run incursion then I run them there's nothing for me to be jealous of. You however seem to want to try to invalidate my comments by offering nothing other than diversion tactics and refusing to address my base point and offering numbers so vague and incomparable as to be meaningless. You seem to be jealously protecting something you know to be out of balance.
Now if you understand that there is a difference between server isk and player isk and the ratio of server isk to isk sinks and how once isk is introduced to the game above and beyond that which is taken out that newly generated isk has affects far beyond that initial payout and is cumulative over time then I am more than happy to be corrected and educated on the matter. But your ad hominem attacks only serve to demonstrate the complete lack of any factual basis for your viewpoint and maybe even a basic lack of understanding of the concepts that I put forth here.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:38:00 -
[139] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote: I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"
again with the "if we nerf high sec enough its players will come here" bull high sec players dont like playing in null of they would be already there. if you remove all content from high sec, you just remove any interest for those players to play eve. and if you lose enough players your nullbears wont have enough money to keep paying ccp servers and people. would you like a 150$ montly subscription?
You sir are an excellent troll. You know how to make your comments ignorant enough that I have to comment.
I do not agree with nerfing high sec to "force" players into null. However you do seem to want to ignore the fact that ships people are willing to fly in high sec they would not be willing to fly in low / null and the significant power increase that those ships offer will affect the isk / hour so if the compensation difference is not significant enough to over come that then there is an imbalance. There is a reason why CCP removed high sec level 5 missions from the game.
I doubt you will see large numbers of people willing to fly faction and deadspace fit marauders into low sec incursions and if you see them in null it's most likely a result of the system being locked down with bubbled gates and or more players than is needed for the incursion to act as "PvP back up" both of which reduce the isk / hour of and player running the null sec incursion and all of which are unneeded or impossible in high sec.
I play WoW and I raid in that game. I understand the attraction of that type of cooperative non-competitive game play. I am also not a PvPer so I understand people who have no interest in going out to null and would never want to force or encourage that type of game play and am unhappy with CCP's current drive to do so.
However one must understand this game is not WoW and that games like WoW do not have a economy that is so closely tied to game mechanics in so many ways. Also games like WoW completely seperate PvE and PvP with instanced dungeons that forbid the two activities from ever meeting. The opposite of which is true for Eve. |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
78
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:07:00 -
[140] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote: I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"
again with the "if we nerf high sec enough its players will come here" bull high sec players dont like playing in null of they would be already there. if you remove all content from high sec, you just remove any interest for those players to play eve. and if you lose enough players your nullbears wont have enough money to keep paying ccp servers and people. would you like a 150$ montly subscription? You sir are an excellent troll. You know how to make your comments ignorant enough that I have to comment. absolutely not, I meant everything i write. maybe I'm not able to explain myself as well as I would like as I'm not native english and my hold of English its not good enough but I dont like trolls nor trolling.
Quote: I do not agree with nerfing high sec to "force" players into null. However you do seem to want to ignore the fact that ships people are willing to fly in high sec they would not be willing to fly in low / null and the significant power increase that those ships offer will affect the isk / hour so if the compensation difference is not significant enough to over come that then there is an imbalance. There is a reason why CCP removed high sec level 5 missions from the game.
its not a question of money, if you place anything in null only people blue with the two coalitions will be able to run them. and if you are blue you can run them in wathever ship you want, you just need to look at intel and warp to pos when needed. if you place them in low only a few people that can hold that system completely locked for the period or friendly with every local denizens will be able to run them, exactly as it happens with level 5 missions. for everybody else would be suicide. so basically you arent lowering the isk/sp factor, you are just removing them from most player's reach. |
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15626
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:43:00 -
[141] - Quote
I have not seen the word "brouhaha" in a while.
Quote:In a while vs. for a while:
The distinction between for Duration and in Duration depends on where the Reference Time is. Reference time is an Instant in time, not a Duration; but Duration is measured from it.
In Duration refers to a time period Duration (long) that ends at the Reference Time For Duration refers to a time period Duration (long) that begins at the Reference Time. from http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/113797/in-a-while-vs-for-a-while President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Jlust Orin
Shifting Sands Trader Cartel Bleak Horizon Alliance.
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 17:54:00 -
[142] - Quote
Dear CCP!
As a relatively new player (3mill SP) I would like to offer the following insights:
For me to participate in incursion is impossible because
- Not enough SP for BS or T2 logi
- Not enough money to buy BS with Shiney / Logi (This one is the lesser problem)
I think the Scout site rewamp should be aimed toward those small groups and inexperienced players whom I also represent.
Problems: Even if this possibility will offer nice rewards to rookies, more than 30mill/hour, leaving the acceleration gate to allow BS to pass through means this:
- When incursion cumminty fleets are full, they will form secondary fleets to run scouts while they wait -> no scouts left for little guy
- If inexperienced players decide to run them in LowSec, how hard is it going to be to gank a sub-battleship 5man gang with even a few BSes/marauders?
I believe you should pick a ship size you intend the scouts to be ran by, a character age (SP) below which it is impossible to join VG/HQ fleets and tweak these sites to allow best new CONTENT for these pilots cause this is basically new content and I am excited about it.
In addition: this could mean increased lowsec content too as people will venture into LS to do this if risk/reward ratio is right. |
KanashiiKami
108
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:21:00 -
[143] - Quote
Jlust Orin wrote:Dear CCP! As a relatively new player (3mill SP) I would like to offer the following insights: For me to participate in incursion is impossible because
- Not enough SP for BS or T2 logi
- Not enough money to buy BS with Shiney / Logi (This one is the lesser problem)
I think the Scout site rewamp should be aimed toward those small groups and inexperienced players whom I also represent. Problems:Even if this possibility will offer nice rewards to rookies, more than 30mill/hour, leaving the acceleration gate to allow BS to pass through means this:
- When incursion cumminty fleets are full, they will form secondary fleets to run scouts while they wait -> no scouts left for little guy
- If inexperienced players decide to run them in LowSec, how hard is it going to be to gank a sub-battleship 5man gang with even a few BSes/marauders?
I believe you should pick a ship size you intend the scouts to be ran by, a character age (SP) below which it is impossible to join VG/HQ fleets and tweak these sites to allow best new CONTENT for these pilots cause this is basically new content and I am excited about it. In addition: this could mean increased lowsec content too as people will venture into LS to do this if risk/reward ratio is right.
WUT ??? |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15628
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:22:00 -
[144] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Sniper Smith wrote:Can you adress my question eariler about spawn times? -- I'd like a clarification.. Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother.. Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window. Which is it? The time between an Incursion ending and it re-spawning again elsewhere has had the minimum lowered to less than 24 hours. This is a really, really bad idea. Many changes lately have been about adding more resources worth fighting over to unused space - lowsec, C4s, etc to drive conflict. Here, you are increasing the incentives to stop fighting over resources and just grind incursions in highsec repeatedly. The game would be better off if the highsec incursion grinders were hit hard by the nerf bat. A few might whine or quit the game, but others would start actually fighting over other sources of income and driving the conflict that makes EVE interesting. I was thinking maybe Incursions are kept available to match ISK faucets in other parts of the game. moons, wh, anoms, etc. that aren't normally available to the high sec incursion types. also, I recall hearing that EVE's economy is on a deflationary trend, and a fairly recent article of Mynnna's claimed PLEX prices were due to investors (speculators), and not so much EVE is dying.
Mynnna's blog article on stuff http://thethirdn.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/inflation-revisited/
Mynnna's TMC article on PLEX http://themittani.com/features/great-plex-bubble President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:23:00 -
[145] - Quote
Jlust Orin wrote:Dear CCP! As a relatively new player (3mill SP) I would like to offer the following insights: For me to participate in incursion is impossible because
- Not enough SP for BS or T2 logi
- Not enough money to buy BS with Shiney / Logi (This one is the lesser problem)
No.
Incursions were added as END GAME PVE. In the same line as the escalations in C6's.. ( WH's require Cap's and fewer numbers.. Incursions no Cap''s but higher numbers ).
They are NOT there for the new player. I'm sorry, but they aren't. Go fleet up with people and run missions till you have the SP.
Scout Sites, as described earlier in the thread, are going to be there for people to make isk while waiting for spots in larger fleets. They aren't going to be worth running just on their own. Though if CCP changed their thinking, and DID make them Viable, like they are trying to do with AS's, then that would be awesome.The more you can spread people out the better. |
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:25:00 -
[146] - Quote
Oh, btw, to all the Null people crying about how much Incursions make in HS, and how scared they are to run them in Null, I need to lol.
You know what CCP should do, during an Incursion in Sov Null, the Sansha should attack to Sov. POS's, Hub's, Outposts, if ignored to withdraw the Sov should switch to Sansha Nation, with all POS's destroyed, and the alliance needing to grind it all over again.
Maybe that would get those null peeps to actually make money there rather than cry about people making it in HS their own way. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15629
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:27:00 -
[147] - Quote
kinda harsh toward a newbro, but anyway.
I recall something about 'run them while you wait for higher incursion sites' but does that mean it's not meant for newbros? If so, my evaluation of them was completely wrong. If they're meant for the same people running Vanguards and HQs, then yeah, they're fine.
[side note: not sure I would call Incursions 'end game PVE'.] President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
90
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:47:00 -
[148] - Quote
Inc respawn changes:
Doesn't really help, only forces more movement to everybody and will result into more and faster Inc closings later on. If you want to change, change that you have to do multiple sites a the same time, requiring more people, fleets and more FCs(high sec non Island Incs only). A 2. HQ system could also help, at least it would lessen the contest problems.
Assaults:
Creating a NCN wall should be one of the options for FCs, the reason nobody does NCNs(even with good setups for them) is that they even with that kind of setup take longer than the other sites, what prevents any specialized NCN fleet from existing. Remove a pocket from the NCN and cut the sniper targets in the last pocket in halve, would make the site ok, for people that bring a few spare ships to switch around. Again change NCNs, don't change basic incursion mechanics, that limits the options of FCs.
Scouts
Remove every single ECM from them. ECM is the worst mechanic and the penalties increase a lot by having less ships on grid in scout sites than the other sites. Also cut incoming DPS down to 500-600 DPS, something that should be tank able rather easy in a group(active tank and/or some RR on the hulls). Payouts still look very underwhelming and not really worth the time.
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15631
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 19:07:00 -
[149] - Quote
now that I don't have to feel guilty about getting all faction battleship about it, I'm going to fit up a vindicator, 3 nightmares, and a basilisk. I feel like I have a bone to pick with these scout sites, and I would like to knock one out of the park. bbialb. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1159
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 19:33:00 -
[150] - Quote
Survived a Propaganda with 4 spider tank Ishtar's, was fun :) , but had to keep switching drone assignment as the jams rolled around, lost 3 drones (Because I am slow), took 20 minutes but like I said, it was fun.
Might have been <10 minutes with 5 Ishtar's and 5 pilots rather than just me trying to do it all.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15631
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:30:00 -
[151] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:Survived a Propaganda with 4 spider tank Ishtar's, was fun :) , but had to keep switching drone assignment as the jams rolled around, lost 3 drones (Because I am slow), took 20 minutes but like I said, it was fun.
Might have been <10 minutes with 5 Ishtar's and 5 pilots rather than just me trying to do it all. what was your fit, by the way? just curious, I would like it for my records, if you don't mind sharing it. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
171
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:43:00 -
[152] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote: its not a question of money, if you place anything in null only people blue with the two coalitions will be able to run them. and if you are blue you can run them in wathever ship you want, you just need to look at intel and warp to pos when needed. if you place them in low only a few people that can hold that system completely locked for the period or friendly with every local denizens will be able to run them, exactly as it happens with level 5 missions. for everybody else would be suicide. so basically you arent lowering the isk/sp factor, you are just removing them from most player's reach.
I'm not sure what you mean by isk / sp factor but i never implied that I wanted to see it easier for lower skill point players to make isk I did not even suggest that they get easier access to incursions that was someone else's comment that I was replying to. All that I said was that in high sec incursions it's very difficult to get into a group if you do not have a "blinged out" and "shinny" ship. The isk needed to buy a ship like that is certainly a barrier of entry for newer players that makes finding a fleet difficult for them. Even if you could come up with a fleet of newbies to run them some other high dps fleet could come by and steal all your payouts.
My only comment was that in low sec and null sec I doubt the "shinny" ship prerequisite for getting into fleet that exists in high sec would likely not exist in low or null.
The problem with the large coalitions dominating and locking down almost all of null sec is one that I have commented on else where and is a deviation from this topic and therefore I will not get into it here. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1159
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 20:59:00 -
[153] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Goldiiee wrote:Survived a Propaganda with 4 spider tank Ishtar's, was fun :) , but had to keep switching drone assignment as the jams rolled around, lost 3 drones (Because I am slow), took 20 minutes but like I said, it was fun.
Might have been <10 minutes with 5 Ishtar's and 5 pilots rather than just me trying to do it all. what was your fit, by the way? just curious, I would like it for my records, if you don't mind sharing it. I would love to share it, but I know it will get misconstrued, but remember this was for fun not for real EVE use.
[Ishtar]
3x Small Remote Armor Repairer II Automated Targeting Unit I
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Navy Cap Booster 400) Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I 2x Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Internal Force Field Array I 4x Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II
5x Garde II 5x Warden II 5x Warrior II 2x Gecko
I had to much crap in my Orca when the last server update happened so they were Faction and Deadspace fit, not something you want to do on TQ as they wouldn't survive 5 catalyst. But I guess if you got the toys might as well play with them.
Edit: I know, Never armour and shield tank, the idea was to use the ASB's and if they broke then spider with the remote armour repairs. So don't tell me about the fail fits I don't care.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
824
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:08:00 -
[154] - Quote
Sniper Smith wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Hey guys,
- The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered.
I'd like a clarification.. Ending re-spawn time, and it re-spawning has been lowered, contradict eachother.. Either it has no re-spawn time, in which case as soon as one dies, a new one spawns.. OR you've just lowered the re-spawn time to less than the current 24-48hr window. Which is it? Also, I would like it if you adjusted incursion so that the mom doesn't spawn as soon as influence is 0.. I mean even it just making it not span till the next dt.. or earliest it'll spawn is 48hrs after the Incursion spawned.. something so we don't have to move every day.. or if as I read, the spawn's start to happen instantly, we might be looking at 5 or so incursions a day.. that's just insane for BS fleets to move.. Some degree of stability would be much appreciated.
you nee to re-read that, the quote says the respwn time between when the site has ended (i.e. despawned) and respawns has been lowered In a room full of dumb blondes, EvE is the smart red head on the other side of the room.-á Lots of men like dumb blondes, and not everyone will like the smart red head, but she doesn;t need to change to be a dumb blonde.-á She is perfect how she is.-á Thats EvE vs other mmo's.-á You either like the red head, or you don't. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
717
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:22:00 -
[155] - Quote
Tragot Gomndor wrote:currently running distress beacon... setup: 2x remote armor nestors, 1x shield nightmare, crap fits
too much ecm, too high hitpoints, we are doing it for like 30min already and only got to the second spawn, i hope theres not another... maybe works when counteracting the ecm somehow, we have no eccm :D
edit: okay, we got a third spawn, so we ragequited
for everyone else, each spawn had 8 cruisers, some frigs, first spawn had 4-6 ecm cruiser, second spawn had a fleeing cruiser, moved to 150km...
I had to lol. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Mr Lexon
Synopus Inc
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 21:51:00 -
[156] - Quote
HI!
I am a new player, still skilling basic skills, and I flay all frigates. What I like to see is Missions, WH and Incursions based on high skilled users just flying frigates. It takes so long to skill all ships. When hig skilled at frigates, it will allow me to do what high skilled users do, and high skilled users on Crusers and other ships might not have all skills on frigs and pay may not attract them. There are other places do go to earn more and get challenges. I live in a small corp in higsec and cannot go and do what the high skilled users do in there shining ships. It will take me years to get there. But I fly frigates well and still there is no WH for me, there is no Incursion for me. And there is now L4 missions for me. That makes me feel like low priory GÇ£citizenGÇ¥ of eve. I have to skill for yers to do the GÇ£coolGÇ¥ stuff. Still I am high skilled on frig, and I want to do everything that others do in a more limited whey. I think bay now that you get may point!
I think that different aspects of the game should be more tailored to what a user can achieve in 1 year, 2 year and so on. I think that L4 missions, WH and Incursions for frigates and small gang groups is the right way to move because it allows a low skilled ship users but still high skilled otherwise to play the game at a more fulfilling extent.
I do not now all things that has to be done, but I think you all know what I mean.
Excuse my English, it is not may native language.
RegardsGǪ
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1919
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 22:03:00 -
[157] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.
The Rules: 12. Spamming is prohibited.
Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words GÇ£firstGÇ¥, GÇ£go back to (insert other game name)GÇ¥ and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Leviathan Wakes
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 00:17:00 -
[158] - Quote
There are a few problems with the new scout sites, but that's all personal opinion so it's irrelevant.
However there is one problem that still stands out in the new Distress Beacon. "Your primary objective is to assist a civilian Orca-class vessel" If we are to assist the stranded Orca why is it that we can still blow it up without any consequences.
Plz CCP help me not shoot the stranded Orca! |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15639
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 01:30:00 -
[159] - Quote
o7 thanks Goldiiee. I like your style, for the utility highs and the X-L ancie. [I also know who you are and I'm sure you have your reasons for incursion fits].
I have a question for you. is RR simply the way to do scout sites, due to the 5 ship payout limit? like, is bringing logistics simply not worth it? if scout sites are meant for existing incursion groups, does that mean the best combination of ships is the very same RR battleships used in higher level Incursion sites?
I would use 5 RR Nightmares, but I'm bringing a Vindicator because I think it will be fun. I'm also bringing a basilisk because it's my crutch / afk buffer for multiboxing. I see the incursion fits on eve-isn.com, and I'm using something slightly different. 2 energy transfers on the basi because Vindicator [doesn't have utility highs], and no basi buddy. I also had to go with T2 hardeners because Sisi, and double up.
I'm using Mega Pulse because DPS and tracking, and the rats are close enough, unless they all scatter (if they kite out of Scorch range I'll just call it a draw and **** off).
disclaimers aside, would you share whatever comes to mind regarind this plan I've come up with? I'm just trying to have fun / pwn a scout site (and reclaim my dignity), and I expect I'll accidentally trigger waves. but. maybe you could share some incursion insight regarding the effectiveness of some strategies over others. I'd be interested to hear it.
with links:
3 Mega Pulse nightmares; loaded with Multifrequency, loaded with Scorch 1 Vindicator 1 Basilisk
I also have a spare nightmare and basilisk on standby, but I probably won't make it on grid in time to keep myself from dying and feeling stupid. I just fitted them up cuz... I dunno. and I can't bring them in without distracting the rats.
as for ECM, if it only gets stronger til it lands, might as well just accept it.
With practice I would start reducing tank, but compared to the Ishtars from yesterday, these Nightmares have 1/3 the speed, 3x the signature radius, and lower resists. the tank is just caution. I realize Incursion groups need to bring as much DPS as possible, and cut the tank down nothing.
but regarding that:
I've heard that incursion groups require 80% omni resists. Do you achieve that with a single Pith-A type Invuln and a T1 Anti-EM rig on a Nightmare? Even under links I'm not getting those numbers in EFT (eve-isn fits) President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 07:24:00 -
[160] - Quote
for those of you with the stance of incursions being end game PVE:
based upon content difficulty alone, there are only two requirements to clear an incursion site of any level:
that your dps ships are at least equivalent to a t1 fit BC (70% resists) and that you have the equivalent of 2 logistics cruisers per squad of pilots.
you do not need anything higher skill or isk wise than that to beat an incursion.
now:
the reason incursions call for 'end game officer stuff' is PURELY due to player fleet competition and need for progression (progression being 'to get better/be the best at' whatever we're trying to do)
in terms of the sites themselves, the PVE itself, incursions do not require what you indicate as 'end game content' they require barely mid game content to clear.
now: if they did anything that wasn't a bling fit battleship fleet (this is the important part) WOULD NOT BE PHYSICALLY ABLE TO COMPLETE SITE OBJECTIVES (it would be impossible/incredibly pointless to damage/tank against incursion sites with anything less than officer modules on perfectly fit ships (10-25% margin for error on 'perfectly fit')
what you're calling end game content isn't end game content because if it was the mechanics never would have been used (too difficult, people would have not invested bling fleets on release day to clear these, thus the difficulty had to be scaled relative to the kinds of fleets ccp figured people were going to invest into the content - in order to get a large enough audience that they could call the content a success)
@CCP - DO NOT interpret the above as an excuse to simply increase damage and HP for incursions as a whole to make them 'more difficult' that's not where combat difficulty comes from, it simply makes the event/action more tedious 'more of the same it had before' is only an improvement in terms of quantity, and that's not what PVE content needs atm.
now, for the rest of us, the idea of this thread is to provide feedback on scout sites, assault changes and re spawn timers.
it is not for contesting the same argument of 'oh the system's out of balance because we (all of eve's players) use it in a way that makes it unbalanced'
this has been repeated enough, and if we want things to change on this front then we go change it ourselves, CCP's been buried under this argument plenty already, if they figured it was something they needed to fix for us they'd have done so.
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
90
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:27:00 -
[161] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:
I have a question for you. is RR simply the way to do scout sites, due to the 5 ship payout limit? like, is bringing logistics simply not worth it? if scout sites are meant for existing incursion groups, does that mean the best combination of ships is the very same RR battleships used in higher level Incursion sites?
Well I am not Goldiiee but you can simply use a single Scimi or Oni, if it catches agro you need a ship with 1-2 remote reps to keep it alive, my preferred hulls for that are Vargur(with A type medium Pith) or Paladin(T2 large RR), simply because of the utility, spare target slots to keep a Logi locked(not really required with the tank on a normal Oni) and long RR runtime. The same thing works for VGs to and is highly preferable over pure RR BS, because it is less restraining on capacitor on the BS and adds tracking links.
Rain6637 wrote:but regarding that: I've heard that incursion groups require 80% omni resists. Do you achieve that with a single Pith-A type Invuln and a T1 Anti-EM rig on a Nightmare? Even under links I'm not getting those numbers in EFT ( eve-isn fits)
Resist requirements depending on the group(some go more tanky than others) and the size of the site(VG need less than HQ). Lowest VG standard is probably something around 55%. I got 60% explosive on my one slot tanked armor NM after boosts as lowest resist, what gives 1478 sustained dps tank with a single Oni on the field and is enough for VGs from my experience dual boxing a solo logi. ISN isn't a particular tanky channel and they often fly on the low end when it comes to tank to spare more slots for other stuff.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1470
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:55:00 -
[162] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: What you say here is just not true. They just made drone changes to have a more linear increase with benefit from skill and more base damage without increasing all level 5 damage so that is one example of a change which helps low SP players without helping high SP players.
I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"
However none of that is really important here as I was commenting to Nevyn on how what he suggested doesn't really change the options currently open to newbies now and how the real barrier for entry was not skills but availability to fleet and isk.
You are missing the point. Yes, my proposal would allow T3's & Logi or RR T3's to run the sites. But there are generally a number of scout systems in an Incursion. And those T3's & Logi can also run the higher end ones that pay out more. Meaning that it is unlikely for a small fleet of T1 cruisers to get contested consistently, allowing them to experience the content and get the capital to upgrade to those T3 & T2 ships we are discussing. Simply because there are enough sites for them to do so. And if all you had to risk was T1 cruiser hulls (Or T2 Frig hulls) then the proposed level of payout would also be reasonable.
Your idea of adding 'Randomness & Wipes' actually will have the opposite effect to what you are wanting though. Because if it can wipe a T3 gang, then it will roll over a T1 Cruiser gang without even noticing it happened. So people will insist on T3 gang with Deadspace fittings to be able to handle the randomness and survive the worst case scenario. Meaning you have just shut the new guys out even more than before, not opened it up to them. |
Yuri Semah
I don't even care anymore
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 12:39:00 -
[163] - Quote
A few days ago I had the pleasure to run some scout sites with other pilots on Singularity.
Our setup: 1 Basilisk, 2 Nightmares with Tachyons, 2 Machariels with 1400s
Long range guns are pretty much a must-have as otherwise you won't be able to hit the Vylades (orbit at 120 km) and Antems (orbit at 140 km). For the same reason there is no Vindicator: There is just not enough stuff in web range. I believe that this mix of prate faction battleships and T2 logi is a good representation of what is currently flown in other incursion sites.
So... a Propagande Center took us about 25 min. to complete. Maybe we got really unlucky with the spawns. Maybe we weren't paying as much attention to the site running as we could have. I am pretty sure that our fits were not optimized for these scout sites. Still, 3-4 times as long as a Vanguard site for a third of the payout - no one is going to run these while waiting for a Vanguard fleet to form. No one.
Skyler Hawk wrote:I was able to run a few Scout sites in a solo Paladin at 100% sansha influence (i.e. max system penalties) by MJDing off the warp-in point and sniping things as they approached. Each site took 25-30 minutes to complete, ...
That a single Marauder is as fast as 4 pirate battleships leads me to believe that there is a huge difference between the sites and their seperate spawns. There doesn't seem to be any balance at all. Also, why is there a bomber (Lirsautton Parichaya) on grid, a ship that should only appear in the mothership site (you know, where there is an actual mothership to spew it out)? To me it seems like CCP took all the incursion rats, removed those that warp dirsupt and the battleships, threw the rest in a blender and that's how the new scout sites came to be.
CCP, please: 1. Remove the Arnons. A few jamming frigates are OK, but cruisers are simply overkill and make the scout sites harder than Vanguards in that regard. 2. Make the sites much, much shorter. If you want those sites to be run at all they must make at least 30m ISK/h (in my opinion). That is about half of what a slow Vanguard fleet (= all T1 battleships without fancy modules) makes. To do that you may have to remove 70-80% of the EHP in the sites. 3. Balance the sites. Make sure that every site takes roughly the same time to complete. Also please don't just throw seemingly random rats at us. In Vanguard sites you have shown us that you can do better (even though it took a few years to get there ). 4. Make sure that payout works properly. At one point I got a full payout even though there were 7 payable ships on grid and in the same fleet. I'm pretty sure something's not working as intended. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
753
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:22:00 -
[164] - Quote
When Incursions were first being tested, I solo'd scout sites in an active-tanked rocket hawk. Made sure to bring some paste for repairing my overheated webber.
This was pre-tiericide/rebalance.
If the difficulty on scout sites is anything near what they were back then, they need to be more difficult.
However, having sites that are balanced around frigate fleets would be pretty nifty. Give them tracking disruptors or damps, if they don't have them already. GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥ -Grath Telkin, 2014.
Free PASTA! |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1160
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:42:00 -
[165] - Quote
Wow, Lots of Questions;
My thought process was to find the lowest skill T2 hull that could survive, first attempt was with command ships, but only three of my toons can fly them so I was a bit shorthanded. And realistically Command ship pilots are quite possibly more skill intensive than Pirate BS pilots, so I scrapped that idea and tried again.
Your right, these will probably be run by BS's and tag along logi's, but like I said I wanted to see if I could survive it in a small T2 hull something that most Toons can train for (Thinking about the 'Noob wants to do Incursions' question I see everywhere). The XL-ASB, repairs just over 1k per cycle, and if your still taking agro when it runs out charges then the 12x small RR armour repairs were going to (Theoretically) keep it alive just long enough for the ASB to reload.
Using a RR setup allows one more DPS on the field, that makes sense to me since the jams are going to effectively remove one DPS pretty much continuously throughout the site. So the RR setup was me compensating for expected loss of DPS.
Short range and long range drones, because my previous attempt had me chasing cruisers at +100 km, a MWD because we know the rats will stop running as soon as they are out of drone control range, then turn around and 'nanny nanny bo bo' you from the safe distance.
Your setup;
I think 5 nightmares would do these with ease, RR each other , but bring Tachys, these rats move out to 100km pretty quick, one web should help with the few Frigs that get in close.
I have seen most communities stick with a 70% resist with an OGB, but not exclusively. For the scout sites I think the 70% worked fine (might even be overcompensating) and 60% might be surviveable with a good Logi on grid. Like Jill Antaris pointed out, if you have a 4 rep cap stable logi (Scimi, Oni) you will have more than enough reps to keep you alive while pecking at the rats.
I think the Vindi will be wasted in a scout site (Just my opinion), blasters is where the Vindi shines and I think only two rats came in close enough to make blasters useful. Killing the frigs that came in close first spawned the next wave dropping 4 more jams and 8 more cruisers on me, (providing me with the opportunity to use my prolific cursing vocabulary to no effect). Rail Vindi might be useful, but having never flown one all I can do is guesstimate at its usefulness.
In summary;
Before I got up to write this, Jill and Yuri made excellent points, too many jams, site is too random with no real way to prepare, Long guns (Range of 100km) are a requirement, pay is too low for current time it takes or site is too difficult for the pay.
The initial concept was to create a site that could be run by the current meta while waiting for a fleet, this should exclude noobs wanting to try it in their T1 frig and cruiser as well as people wanting to make billions with a small box fleet. In that regard I think a few tweaks are needed, swap the Arnon's for Antem's, Romi's or Auga's, drop the Niarja spawns to max (or always) two per wave, and keep your options open to change it in 30 days if it turns out to be too easy.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1160
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:46:00 -
[166] - Quote
In a final note Wedgetail,
- Start out doing lvl 1 missions.
- Gain enough skill and ISK to do lvl 2.
- Continue this progression to lvl 4.
- Take on a few apprentices and fleet them through lvl 4's till you have a group that does them with ease.
- Take a venture (the journey type not the ship)into low sec do a couple lvl 5's
- Get drop-kicked by a mistake in watching D-scan, go back to lvl 4s.
- Create an Incursion group, Use trust, fleet, fitting, tactical, and logistic concepts learned everywhere else to earn ISK as a group.
- Take your trusty group on roams, do tournament events, start corporations and alliances with people you know, trust and want to work with.
So it's kind of a end game PVE content for those that have done the rest, and want to take their game play to the next level.
But as mentioned before, this thread is for the people that are using this content, they are involved in the game, they are interested in making it more enjoyable, they are interested in providing feedback about using the content, your personal opinion about the content is not the topic and should certainly be aired, and heard in the proper forum.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
102
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:50:00 -
[167] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:In a final note Wedgetail,
- Start out doing lvl 1 missions.
- Gain enough skill and ISK to do lvl 2.
- Continue this progression to lvl 4.
- Take on a few apprentices and fleet them through lvl 4's till you have a group that does them with ease.
- Take a venture (the journey type not the ship)into low sec do a couple lvl 5's
- Get drop-kicked by a mistake in watching D-scan, go back to lvl 4s.
- Create an Incursion group, Use trust, fleet, fitting, tactical, and logistic concepts learned everywhere else to earn ISK as a group.
- Take your trusty group on roams, do tournament events, start corporations and alliances with people you know, trust and want to work with.
So it's kind of a end game PVE content for those that have done the rest, and want to take their game play to the next level. But as mentioned before, this thread is for the people that are using this content, they are involved in the game, they are interested in making it more enjoyable, they are interested in providing feedback about using the content, your personal opinion about the content is not the topic and should certainly be aired, and heard in the proper forum.
end game as one of the last things you do certainly, but i would suggest a branch, rather than LV 5 missions THEN incursions it's LV 3-4 missions THEN lv 4-5 OR incursions, simply cuz you can, they're about equally accessible in terms of location:difficulty.
and last i looked opinions about the topic was what was asked for, but not what was being provided, in this we agree, as the reason for my post was quite obviously i thought, to keep arguments about old income Balances, in the threads that've been talking about them for years already.
end note, my comments regarding end game content were to indicate the difference between mechanical requirements (the game/world rules) and enforced requirements (player rules) as it seemed to me quite a few people were not distinguishing between the two when presenting their argument justification - who (which collection of players) scout sites should be aimed at plays a large part in their design and so clear distinctions are nice. |
Dersen Lowery
The Scope Gallente Federation
1193
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 21:00:00 -
[168] - Quote
Has anyone considered having an AT-style point system for various hull types, which would factor into the payout? So if you show up with lots of shiny glass cannons you can win a contest for a payout, but not as much as you'd get flying T2 fit T1 battleships uncontested, or other more inexpensive ships. The swarm of cheap ships could be a possibility, if not an optimal approach, and then the per-ship benefit would be checked by the rapidly diminishing returns imposed by the number of ships.
Among other things, it would be a not-very-stealthy buff to incursions in dangerous space. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15640
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 03:09:00 -
[169] - Quote
Thanks Goldiiee
Did another propaganda cluster, and stopped after things kited out to 140km. do they all do that, or is it just the triggers that tempt you to shoot them first (while they're in range) so that killing them means spawning another wave
everything got killed off pretty quickly, and the dps was oddly nonexistent... but that was with Mega Pulse II / Scorch. I dislike [understatement] Beams. I might try it, though.
but that tracking, wtf. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Destroyer Chappy
Diversified Mercantile Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 05:01:00 -
[170] - Quote
Max Kupaptakov wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:
The re-spawn time between an incursion ending and it re-spawning has been lowered. . Oh, thanks you guys. Now I will have to move 70jumps a day, in order to make ISK in two different incursion sites if "Comunity drama" strikes again. Now you gonna gave us only more MOMs to pop and more jump to make.
You are just encouraging ppl to rage popping more. Then ppl will spend more time on route then "enjoying the content". Better would be to extend time between grinding the influence and poping the mom.
? I think you misread what was said. Not reduction in time before MOM spawns. Reduction in time between last MOM pop and first new location non-MOM site spawns.
I didn't see anything about reducing the length of incursions before MOM can be popped (thus your expectation of more frequent operating base moves and fewer regular sites before MOM). Instead I saw CCP reducing time between two entirely separate Incursions (new cluster location) incidents. My guess is that the effect will be very minor increase in the number of incursion constellations per month.
But I understand the appeal of your request that instead CCP change things so incursion fleets are able to farm more sites in one location for a much longer time before the endgame MOM appears. But I think that CCP sees drawbacks to interrupting normal constellation use for more than 3-7 days. Including that the longer a highsec or low sec incursion lingers the more gankers will likely organize and target incursion runners (2nd weekend could be bad). |
|
Yuri Semah
I don't even care anymore
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 09:46:00 -
[171] - Quote
2 things: 1. As far as I am aware of those scout sites have no triggers. The next wave spawns when the current wave is completed. 2. Yes, Antems will always (try to) run out to 140 km. Those are the incursion rats that orbit the furthest out. More on the individual rats can be read here: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Sansha%27s_Manual |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15649
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 10:03:00 -
[172] - Quote
ah, that's an awesome table. thanks. so snipe those before they burn away.
I'll try tachys but i'm not going to enjoy it. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Deriah Book
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 11:19:00 -
[173] - Quote
Saraki Ishikela wrote:I liked the ideas being tossed around to make a cruiser/BC sized spawn that can be run by 3-5 people so newer players can run these and participate in the content.
If the current feedback of 4-5 Battleships taking 30+ minutes to run these is correct then they will still most likely go ignored.
TLDR Everyone in Battleships will still run Vanguards, let newer players run these in smaller ships.
You can't TLDR a post that is only two sentences! Can you?
TLDR Wut?
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Rain6637
Team Evil
15650
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 12:26:00 -
[174] - Quote
almost forgot my logs
Don't know why, but gamelogs combined a few clients.
Scimi / Nightmare A / Nightmare B part 1
Scimi / Nightmare A / Nightmare B part 2
Nightmare C
Nightmare D
If there's no other incursion ISK to make at the time, might as well bring the whole crew? These would go faster with a webber, and of course more DPS. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 16:03:00 -
[175] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Has anyone considered having an AT-style point system for various hull types, which would factor into the payout? So if you show up with lots of shiny glass cannons you can win a contest for a payout, but not as much as you'd get flying T2 fit T1 battleships uncontested, or other more inexpensive ships. The swarm of cheap ships could be a possibility, if not an optimal approach, and then the per-ship benefit would be checked by the rapidly diminishing returns imposed by the number of ships.
Among other things, it would be a not-very-stealthy buff to incursions in dangerous space. Begin theorycrafting such an idea. drop it into F&I and watch it die a horrible death. Incursions are supposed to be end game content. t1 BS hulls with t2 fits should be the baseline minimum to do without someone very experienced doing the fittings and experienced people doing the logi. It is the only content in which the number of ships (and supposedly players) is limited before you lose potential payout. It is one of the fastest low risk (never no risk, ship is in space, in a system in a constellation advertised as having an incursion to all and sundry, and upwards of 10k DPS on many grids) isk faucets. It also is the only one with a mechanic which explicitly rewards shiny fits that out DPS others. These are the intended characteristics. It is DESIGNED for bittervets and those just shy of becomming bittervets. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15657
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 16:20:00 -
[176] - Quote
you guys need to get together and work out a solution to that power creep, cuz those fits are just horrendously bling. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Bessa Miros
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:03:00 -
[177] - Quote
What are NCN's?
general suggestion - You should really spell it out the first time it is used so those of us that are not in the know can follow along. Because who's going to read all the way to page 8 to find out? |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
1165
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:27:00 -
[178] - Quote
Bessa Miros wrote:What are NCN's?
general suggestion - You should really spell it out the first time it is used so those of us that are not in the know can follow along. Because who's going to read all the way to page 8 to find out? https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Incursion_sites#Nation_Consolidation_Network
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15662
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:29:00 -
[179] - Quote
I tried several gang comps only to discover this update was meant for the incursion-initiated. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1473
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 02:16:00 -
[180] - Quote
If there is a flat 5 ship cut off, this also flies against existing incursion mechanics of diminishing payouts for larger fleets, and doesn't seem to encourage logi ships. As well as changing how contests work apparently. |
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
91
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 12:42:00 -
[181] - Quote
After watching some Vids(thx Rain) and looking at the spawns I am not really sure how well the person that designed the sites knows Incs or the the mechanics. It looks like a random selection of ship types from other sites with a very big focus on sniper targets, what makes the sites very inaccessible for newer players(that will not have T2 or better fitted sniper BS) or would require a lot of movement, what isn't feasible with 1 Logi because of the limited RR range on BS/BCs and a mwd fitted logi that could keep up needs very good skills and fittings like this are very uncommon, because they are very skill intensive and require good micromanagement(I fly a mwd Oni a lot for Utility reasons in VGs). So you are looking at a very good sniper fleet(bad) or a insane good mwd fleet with one logi that manages to move around while the logi never falls behind. I done something like this in AS with a Basilisk or Guardian and it is very challenging keeping yourself in a specific range to mwding BS and manage all the RR and cap requests while you do so.
3 Maras are ridiculous, in VGs 1 is the max amount and they got removed from the OTAs because the RR was this high that you did need alpha setups to alpha stuff of the field if you wanted to do them in any efficient way after the VG changes 2 years ago.
Overall Idea
Assuming Scouts should be accessible for newer players and a good entry point in Incs, that require less people, tank and coordination than Vanguards the current design of the sites doesn't archive this at all. It is even pointless with high end ships like pirate BS and T2 logistics because it takes longer and pays less than VGs, it will be even worse for a fleet with BCs or T1 Logis that add less tracking links to the fleet or have more limitations when it comes to keeping a mwd fleet running over the grid. The idea should be a accessible site type that requires less dedicated ships and high end setups than VGs and its doable with less coordination, so it creates less complications for the FC and less potential for newer players to make mistakes.
Implementation
This is a small draft I made real quick to demonstrate how sites with multiple solve mechanics could be made for scout sites:
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1408/National_Industrial_Proxy.png
The site can be done in different ways(static, mwd close range, mwd sniper etc), scaling in the difficulty and time it takes by the type of fleet you use. A and B are hacking spots, that prevent the reinforcement wave RA and RB and disables 25% of the shield of target C each(200k EHP in the shield, brining the last target down to 200k EHP -> 100k in shields, 100k in armor/structure). The Guards at points A,B,C don't auto agro similar to missions, they agro you once you get within 20km, you shoot them or you shoot objective C. The objective is completed when structure C and all sansha on grid are removed.
Sniper fleet, static:
You take out the frigs at range and then attack objective C(300k EHP) that re spawns the reinforcements that also need to be killed to finish the site.
Sniper fleet mwd:
The ships move in the middle with the logi and a fast ship does the hacks, while they remove the frigs in the meantime. A long range fitted HAC or 2. mwd fitted Logi could be optimal to do do the do the hacks at point A and B while the snipers deal with the frigs.
Close range BS MWD fleet:
The BS move to A and start hitting the target, by the higher DPS and close spawns, this should be doable in 4-6 minutes. Alternatively a they could move in the centre while a smaller hull Hacks A and B while all hulls move back to C after this is done, to prevent the extra spawns and speed the site up.
Medium ship fleet:
The fleet simply travels from A to B to C. By having only frigs to shoot, medium guns, being in web range of the frigs to take them out quick and only facing frigs and relative little EHP to remove in the site, this should be the fastest way with a couple of close range fitted BCs/Cruisers, depending on how quick you can travel and preferable for newer pilots and BCs/Cruisers because it doesn't require huge tanks or high DPS, just a bit more movement.
In my opinion this would be a good way to redesign this and other sites, even beyond the flexibility of VGs when it comes to the way how they can be done. It is a great opportunity to include scaling mechanics that create as similar time consuming environment for some more advanced fleet types while allowing far less dedicated fleets to complete the sites in a ok time frame and also offers people without sniper fittings or high dps blaster mwd BS a way to do the sites relative quick and hassle free, even with T1 Logis and BCs/Cruisers.
5M isk and 500 LP would be a good reward for this, this is a bit under what VG fleets can do, but still would give around 45-50M a hour with 4500-5000 concord LP given you finish the sites in about 5 minutes each. |
Dianila Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 17:15:00 -
[182] - Quote
So I tried one site today, managed to force a friend to log in to Singularity and formed two Scimitars and one Vindicator. The first thing I noticed upon landing was the ECM-heavy spawn. (gyazo linky). Usually this isn't too much of a problem, but when running 3 battleships you'll lose about one third of your DPS (which means the meta will probably be marauders or RR battleships, neither of which are very noob-friendly). After waiting for an end to the chainjamming or a target switch from the Arnons we decided to call it a day after about 8 minutes (my friend had to leave).
It is not clear to me what CCP wants with the Scout sites. If it's meant as a place for the lower-SP pilots to make some ISK as well it hasn't been too good. If, however, it is meant as a place for a vanguard fleet waitlist to make some ISK while waiting for fleet... It's isn't that good either.
Can a dev please tell us what CCP is trying to accomplish with these scout sites? |
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CCP RedDawn
C C P C C P Alliance
479
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 15:10:00 -
[183] - Quote
Dianila Artemisa wrote:So I tried one site today, managed to force a friend to log in to Singularity and formed two Scimitars and one Vindicator. The first thing I noticed upon landing was the ECM-heavy spawn. ( gyazo linky). Usually this isn't too much of a problem, but when running 3 battleships you'll lose about one third of your DPS (which means the meta will probably be marauders or RR battleships, neither of which are very noob-friendly). After waiting for an end to the chainjamming or a target switch from the Arnons we decided to call it a day after about 8 minutes (my friend had to leave). It is not clear to me what CCP wants with the Scout sites. If it's meant as a place for the lower-SP pilots to make some ISK as well it hasn't been too good. If, however, it is meant as a place for a vanguard fleet waitlist to make some ISK while waiting for fleet... It's isn't that good either. Can a dev please tell us what CCP is trying to accomplish with these scout sites?
We are aware of the Antem and Vylade orbit ranges and the jamming amounts that mess with the overall balance. The re-balance is meant to simply bring them more in line with the risk vs reward of the higher-tiered sites.
Currently, Scout sites on TQ don't reward enough and are under-utilised. These upcoming changes should alleviate this somewhat. Team Space Glitter |
|
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3460
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 15:15:00 -
[184] - Quote
Dev blog thread can be found here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=367250 CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
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Brutus Le'montac
142
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:46:00 -
[185] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:you guys need to get together and work out a solution to that power creep, cuz those fits are just horrendously bling.
the solution for that is called WTM/TVP :)
Thought is dangerous; lack of thought, deadly!
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1476
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 23:54:00 -
[186] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote:
We are aware of the Antem and Vylade orbit ranges and the jamming amounts that mess with the overall balance. The re-balance is meant to simply bring them more in line with the risk vs reward of the higher-tiered sites.
Currently, Scout sites on TQ don't reward enough and are under-utilised. These upcoming changes should alleviate this somewhat.
The problem is that much jamming forces a Marauder fleet with bling. And people investing that much bling are going to want far greater rewards than you are offering. I will be very surprised if you create a significant upswing in total scout sites being run, though given how few are run currently you may get a nice percent increase. After all, 1 site a week to 2 sites is 100% increase. |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 09:38:00 -
[187] - Quote
CCP RedDawn wrote: Currently, Scout sites on TQ don't reward enough and are under-utilised. These upcoming changes should alleviate this somewhat.
But the changes don't do that, it is currently not worth the time to run them, with the changes it is even worse, since they just add a lot more issues than they fix(jamming, long range, insane EHP to kill per site considering having 3-4 dps on grid). They are even less accessible for newer players or random small gangs(by the jamming) after the changes and still are not worth the time to do.
I can't see the person that did the changes had a real concept in mind, I don't see any kind of reasonable selection of sansha hulls that gear sites to specific fleet formats or ranges or makes them attractive for newer players/smaller gangs. The VG changes 2.5 years ago where similar and only a lot of feedback from the community's that do the sites changed them for the better, later down the road. Back then I suggested to remove the Maras from the OTAs and move the hacking spot closer there and it did work and made the site useful again outside of high alpha setups. There is no reason to repeat that with Scouts, and the only real solution would be to start with a new concept draft about what this kind of sites should archive and geared to, then build new sites and then gather feedback from people that do Incursions for a long time to fine tune them. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3461
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 10:33:00 -
[188] - Quote
One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:
We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.
Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.
So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.
With this new 6 week release cycle we can make this change now for Hyperion and monitor it after release. If we feel this is too much we will adjust it again ASAP. We are also starting with just Vanguards for testing and may expand this to other sites depending on how it goes.
Thanks again for all the feedback guys! :D CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
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Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
1327
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:19:00 -
[189] - Quote
I don't do incursions myself, but this seems like a quite a clever bit of balancing. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3444
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 11:31:00 -
[190] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:
We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.
Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.
So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.
With this new 6 week release cycle we can make this change now for Hyperion and monitor it after release. If we feel this is too much we will adjust it again ASAP. We are also starting with just Vanguards for testing and may expand this to other sites depending on how it goes.
Thanks again for all the feedback guys! :D
I'm critical to or hostile to most of the Incursion changes, but I think this is a positive decision.
I feel it should apply to lowsec as well.
Deep sovereign nullsec is actually a fairly safe place to run incursions. The dangerous places are busy low, non-sov null and contested or border areas of sovereign null.
This would allow fleets to bring 13 or 14 ships that are PVE oriented, plus one or two highly disruptive, purely PVP ships to incursions in contested space.
Edit: Start it with the 10 person sites as you have stated, better to test it in practice first, then adjust later if needed. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=366607 - Gank incursion runners, win prizes! August 26-Sept 30. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:29:00 -
[191] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:
We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.
Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.
So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.
That info should be linked in the thread about the changes.
Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3464
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:33:00 -
[192] - Quote
Jill Antaris wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:
We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.
Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.
So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.
That info should be linked in the thread about the changes. Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites.
This is all a big test to see how it goes. We talked a fair bit about different numbers and such but couldn't all agree. This is why it's only for Vangaurds in null right now. Once we get a better feel for how things actually play out we will look at expanding to other sites and low sec. :) CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
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Liz Rebecca
Garage Bagage
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 13:55:00 -
[193] - Quote
list of activities for low SP chars at Hi-sec ordered by isk/hour profit:
1) vanguard sites 2) lvl 4 missions 3) blitz lvl 3 missions 4) ore/ice mining 5) mining missions 6) courier missions . . . xx) scout sites
read about the upcoming changes to scout sites and expected fast cruiser-sized small gang fleet setup to counter a lot of sansha frigs and some cruisers with unchanged EM and thermal dmg.
I also expected that the scout site will be placed between lvl4-¦s and vanguards in terms of profit because you need a small group and have to fly to the incursion location.
saw 20min videos of marauders + T2 logi setups for a 3,5mil ISK reward
kkthxbye
p.s.: not even if a zero was forgotten for the reward would i move away my marauders from my 5 lvl4 agent spot |
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 23:32:00 -
[194] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I'm critical to or hostile to most of the Incursion changes, but I think this is a positive decision.
I feel it should apply to lowsec as well.
Deep sovereign nullsec is actually a fairly safe place to run incursions. The dangerous places are busy low, non-sov null and contested or border areas of sovereign null.
This would allow fleets to bring 13 or 14 ships that are PVE oriented, plus one or two highly disruptive, purely PVP ships to incursions in contested space.
Edit: Start it with the 10 person sites as you have stated, better to test it in practice first, then adjust later if needed.
True, it is nice to run deep in sov null, too bad I don't get to pick the time and place of the incursion. Last week it was on top of the EC- gate, one of the most heavily traveled nullsec systems. Half of goon-space is pocketed by NPC space, so fountain isn't a fun spot to run. Oh yeah, and then there's incursions on top of critical jump bridges, so even though we get to run them for a few days, we have to pop them as soon as the mothership spawns. Also bubbles suck. Also you have to be part of a nullsec alliance that has to put forth effort to hold their space, and you have to do your part to defend that space.
BUT.. having said all that, and knowing this will most benefit TEST, I do agree that lowsec should get the same change too, for all the exact same reasons. |
Nalha Saldana
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
814
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 00:11:00 -
[195] - Quote
You should make scout sites have a less steep diminishing payout curve for additional pilots, this way they could be something for both small groups with elite ships or slightly bigger groups of noobs who want to run incursions. |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 03:05:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Hope you enjoy and thanks for the feedback guys.
So you went to the CCP Fozzie school of design, ask for feedback, then ignore it?
Everyone has said the payouts are too low for the time/investment required of the new scout sites. Ignored: Isk payout is the same as OP, and LP is below even the lowest feedback responses
Everyone has said, "too much jamming" Ignored: Jamming is the same as OP, that amount of jamming and you really expect people to bother?
Thanks for spitting in the face of the people that took the time to test these sites and report back.
Thanks for ignoring what the player base thinks, yet again...
Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll. |
Annie Getyourgun
Snow Leopard Situs
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 17:30:00 -
[197] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Jill Antaris wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:
We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.
Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.
So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.
That info should be linked in the thread about the changes. Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites. This is all a big test to see how it goes. We talked a fair bit about different numbers and such but couldn't all agree. This is why it's only for Vangaurds in null right now. Once we get a better feel for how things actually play out we will look at expanding to other sites and low sec. :)
Just to confirm this is for both SOV and NPC NULL? |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3467
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 18:20:00 -
[198] - Quote
Annie Getyourgun wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Jill Antaris wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:One final thing we are doing, which didn't get into the dev blog as we were still talking about exactly what we wanted to do:
We are bumping the maximum (before diminishing rewards) number of pilots allowed in a Vangaurd site for NULL SEC ONLY from 10 to 15.
Null sec pilots are not going to bring fully faction fit faction ships to Incursions and so their effective DPS is a lot lower. The time to completion on sites for null sec is longer due to this and even through the rewards are higher the longer time ruins this.
So instead of bumping up the ISK directly we are allowing you to bring more pilots. This will increase the total reward, more pilots getting the same ISK, and reduce the time for completion.
That info should be linked in the thread about the changes. Btw, 50% is to much in my opinion, 20-30% are a lot more reasonable to not end up with 200M+ per hour fleets in sov 0.0. Also this changes should be extended to AS, HQ and Low Sec sites. This is all a big test to see how it goes. We talked a fair bit about different numbers and such but couldn't all agree. This is why it's only for Vangaurds in null right now. Once we get a better feel for how things actually play out we will look at expanding to other sites and low sec. :) Just to confirm this is for both SOV and NPC NULL?
We do not differentiate between the two for Incursions. So yes, for both.
CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @RegnerBA |
|
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of Eden
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 01:29:00 -
[199] - Quote
I definitely like the idea of buffing incursions in nullsec, as given the enhanced risks involved and the concomitant decline in bling, without such buffs the incursions won't be worth running. Even so, I think that what is crucial is making nullsec incursions significantly more profitable than afk ratting in a carrier in safe sov null, as when that occurs we should see some of the ratters migrate to nullsec incursion running. To accomplish that ultimately I think there will need to be enhanced ISK and LP payouts, but the 15 man VG change is certainly welcome. |
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CCP Affinity
C C P C C P Alliance
1616
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 13:57:00 -
[200] - Quote
Just a quick update that Team Space Glitter are reading this feedback and we have noticed a lot of mentions about jamming concerns. We are looking into some possible solutions to this (both rewards increase and jamming decrease) but we would like to wait and see how it runs on TQ for a few days and watch the metrics and come up with an ideal solution after that. We will update this thread with any plans we have to adjust the scout sites along with any relevant data the metrics show us :)
Thanks so much for your feedback so far, it's incredibly useful for us CCP Affinity | Follow me on Twitter Content Designer for EVE Online |
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Liz Rebecca
Garage Bagage
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 16:26:00 -
[201] - Quote
congratulations
from the perspective of low SP-players you have changed the manageable but unprofitable scout sites to unmanageable and unprofitable scout sites. |
Yasharlee Aylown
Soleil d'Or
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 23:57:00 -
[202] - Quote
Liz Rebecca wrote:congratulations
from the perspective of low SP-players you have changed the manageable but unprofitable scout sites to unmanageable and unprofitable scout sites.
totally agree,
I was using scout missions for turn on newbies into fleet and let them know, how incursions and fleeting looks like. After I have read this experiences from other players, I can say CCP has killed this "jumping portal" to build comunity of new players with crazy requirements to run this sites.
It will be good, when the "Scout" missions are made for frigs to cruisers so newbies can use ship thay can fly. As I read about "marauders", I was just laughing again.
HOW YOU WILL BUILD COMUNITIES IN FUTURE, WHEN YOU ARE DESTROYING THE BASIC STONES????
just few question to think about: - if newbie learn to fly logi frigate, it is not obvious to give him a reason to learn cruiser for future harder incursions? - how you can teach new players to be active, when you re setting goals so high at beginning? - do something for newbies, otherwise EVE will be full of alts |
Scuzzy Logic
Nightmare Machinery Illusion of Solitude
141
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 16:48:00 -
[203] - Quote
Yasharlee Aylown wrote:Liz Rebecca wrote:congratulations
from the perspective of low SP-players you have changed the manageable but unprofitable scout sites to unmanageable and unprofitable scout sites. totally agree, I was using scout missions for turn on newbies into fleet and let them know, how incursions and fleeting looks like. After I have read this experiences from other players, I can say CCP has killed this "jumping portal" to build comunity of new players with crazy requirements to run this sites. It will be good, when the "Scout" missions are made for frigs to cruisers so newbies can use ship thay can fly. As I read about "marauders", I was just laughing again. HOW YOU WILL BUILD COMUNITIES IN FUTURE, WHEN YOU ARE DESTROYING THE BASIC STONES???? just few question to think about: - if newbie learn to fly logi frigate, it is not obvious to give him a reason to learn cruiser for future harder incursions? - how you can teach new players to be active, when you re setting goals so high at beginning? - do something for newbies, otherwise EVE will be full of alts
This so much. I have 1-2 friends I used to take along with me in WHs and scout sites as T1 logis/gas miners and we had a lot of fun, but now you're just upping the requirements on EVERYTHING.
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Loki Vice
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 02:10:43 -
[204] - Quote
Tried the new scouts on sisi with some friend using vindi's and machs, not even remotely worth the effort due to the jams. You really need to tweak the sites so they can actually be run in 2-3 minutes. |
Joe Neal
Koa Mai Hoku Cult of War
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 07:23:41 -
[205] - Quote
Yeah the site can be truly something if the jamming gets taken down a notch. I think the best thing for it would b that the site should b able to b done with 2-3 people. It would b perfect for all the small groups of people in the game that dont like flying with the other incursion groups or dont have the skills nor the isk to join those fleets.
And with CCP waiting till a few days after it released on TQ i feel they will only realize everything we the players have been telling them. It feels foolish to get the feed back but wait till after its been implemented to re-change it to what it should have been first time. |
Aria Jimbojohnson
University of Caille Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 08:05:06 -
[206] - Quote
Why does CCP even bother to post feedback threads? It's pretty clear they don't give two craps about actual feedback. Everyone is saying the rewards suck and there's way too much jamming for anyone to bother, but the response is basically "who cares, we're launching pretty much how it was when we started". And they wonder why most people don't bother testing on SiSi. |
Miner Hottie
Valar Morghulis. Goonswarm Federation
58
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 02:03:37 -
[207] - Quote
CCP Affinity wrote:Just a quick update that Team Space Glitter are reading this feedback and we have noticed a lot of mentions about jamming concerns. We are looking into some possible solutions to this (both rewards increase and jamming decrease) but we would like to wait and see how it runs on TQ for a few days and watch the metrics and come up with an ideal solution after that. We will update this thread with any plans we have to adjust the scout sites along with any relevant data the metrics show us :)
Thanks so much for your feedback so far, it's incredibly useful for us
This response is not really well thought out at all. In PVP, if you uncloak a Falcon, everyone primaries it, because everyone hates jams. Being jammed turns your ship into a useless punching bag. Every guide to Incursions tells you to pop the jammers first. If your running a 5 ship gang in a scout site and 1 gets jammed that's a loss of 20% of your DPS, 2 jammed that's 40% worse if 1 of the 5 ships is a logi bro. If the scout sites are full of jammers and take the 20-30 minutes to run or need EWAR immunity (i.e. Marauders), no one will bother running them and all your development time will be wasted. For a company with limited resources this is silly and poor performance, especially when the end user is telling you it's wrong and dumb. So extract the digit and cap jams in these sites to one ship per wave before you waste everyone's time and test it on TQ.
When scout sites were being rebalanced I had hoped they could be run with decent fit cruisers or battle cruisers to create some variety and more interesting gameplay. These changes are not going to achieve that, these changes are making scout sites yawn inducing playgrounds for hi-sec 1%er's running their bling marauders. Forget expecting people to run them outside hi-sec under these requirements as well. Welp to that idea.
Try again CCP
It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
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Alan Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:46:29 -
[208] - Quote
Today, we formed a fleet to test the scout sites. As mentioned before, we encountered a lot of jamming, paired with a lot of EHP, which made the sites take a long time.
Fleet setup: 3x Nightmare 1x Rokh 1x Vindicator 1x Scimitar
You can see here that we were heavy on grid, also, we noticed that shortrange dps isn't exactly useful, so my next test will be 4 sniper ships and one logi, maybe even spidertanking battleships.
About the sites...:
Distress Beacon: So many Arnons in the second and third wave. Their EHP is too high for a small gang. Honestly, the same goes for the other cruisers, the sniper cruisers die pretty quickly, but our primary was on the Arnons, since we didn't like losing about 20% of our DPS. Also, it seems that some of the bombers got lost, however, 5 of these would be a better spawn than 4 Arnons.
Forward Reconnaisance Outpost: First wave was a bit light, so we managed to kill them quite fast, however, the Antems pulled range, which wasn't too much of a problem for our Nightmares, however, it's a notable difference from Vanguard sites. The second wave brought us a Niarja and three Arnons, which was quite a pain, but we managed to kill them. Eventually. The next wave was an Orkashu Myelen (the Niarja's little brother) and another 4 Arnons, supported by three Mara's. Needless to say, this took a while. The fourth wave brought us another four Arnons, you might start thinking that Sansha Kuvakei wants to get rid of the civilians that were taken from Arnon.
Propaganda Cluster: We decided to contest a Paladin and Nightmare who were shooting at Sansha's in this site, so when we landed the first wave was almost dead. We got to shoot at Uitra's, Mara's, Arnons, Vylades, a Parachiya, a few Raa Thalamus's and some Romi's to top it off. This took quite a lot of time, so after this we decided to get ourselves another logi and run Vanguard sites instead. We were all kinda burned out on shooting Arnons.
Overall: Please, remove the Arnons from the sites, replace them with a few Niarja's and bring in more frigates instead of heavy tanked cruisers. This should make it more fun and probably more interesting to run sites. Using the "little brothers" of the VG/AS/HQ npcs (Orkashu Myelen instead of Niarja Myelen, Raa Thalamus/Romi Thalamus) is a good thing in my opinion. If these sites are supposed to show how other incursion sites are, drop the Arnons. You don't get jammed for a few minutes in VG's/HQ's, since your DPS will take out the targets in a pretty short time.
tl;dr: Remove Arnons, bring in more frigs, ECM isn't bad, unless it's tanky ECM (these Arnons outtank my Blackbird). |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15872
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:10:00 -
[209] - Quote
I might head back out and try 5x RR Pulse nightmares with cap and shield transfers... possibly with an emphasis on shield drone logi.
I think it's worth spelling out exactly why the range of Arnons presents so much difficulty...
Beam lasers have a lot of range, and they're used in standard incursion fits, but the tracking of Beam lasers is pretty bad. Incursion fits attempt to compensate for this with tracking mods and target painters. you can also use webs to slow things down, but a lot of the rats are outside of web range for an un-bonused web ship like the nightmare.
the 5 ship limit cuts into that utility by not allowing an extra web bonus ship. you're cutting the difficulty a little too close, even with Nightmares, which are useful for their damage type (of energy turrets against sansha) and bonused guns (turning 4 turrets into 8).
the bad tracking of beam lasers means you really need a lot of them to break the tanks of the sansha ships. even worse is the jams, which reduce the dps of 5 ships to 4, fairly consistently.
Pulse lasers have much better DPS and tracking, but their range is shorter. 70km, with fully skilled Pulse lasers and Scorch ammo, and tracking enhancers fit with optimal range scripts.
I prefer pulse lasers over beams. the increased DPS and tracking would mean scout sites would be cleared out faster, with a blap strategy while they're in range... it would work if it wasn't for the Arnons... which burn out of the effective range of Pulse lasers very quickly, before they can be killed off consistently.
by having the Arnons (or ships which kite beyond 70k consistently) in the site, you're jumping from a Pulse laser requirement to a Beam laser requirement... with just that one ship (the Arnon).
-5 ship limit / payout amount -Arnon range (select a ship other than the Arnon) -Jams reducing effective number of ships by 1 -tankiness of the sansha rats
something's gotta give. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23181
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:10:03 -
[210] - Quote
I might head back out and try 5x RR Pulse nightmares with cap and shield transfers... possibly with an emphasis on shield drone logi.
I think it's worth spelling out exactly why the range of Arnons presents so much difficulty...
Beam lasers have a lot of range, and they're used in standard incursion fits, but the tracking of Beam lasers is pretty bad. Incursion fits attempt to compensate for this with tracking mods and target painters. you can also use webs to slow things down, but a lot of the rats are outside of web range for an un-bonused web ship like the nightmare.
the 5 ship limit prevents the use of an extra web bonus ship. the tank of the sansha ships requires a full DPS setup, even with Nightmares, which are useful for their damage type (of energy turrets against sansha) and bonused guns (turning 4 turrets into 8). ...especially due to the bad tracking of beam lasers.
the jams add to the problem by reducing the DPS of 5 ships to 4, fairly consistently.
Pulse lasers have much better DPS application (through tracking), but their range is shorter. 70km, with fully skilled Pulse lasers and Scorch ammo, and tracking computers loaded with optimal range scripts.
I prefer pulse lasers over beams. the increased DPS and tracking would mean scout sites would be cleared out faster, with a blap strategy while they're in range... which would work if it wasn't for the Arnons that burn out of the effective range of Pulse lasers very quickly, before they can be killed off consistently.
by having the Arnons (or ships which kite beyond 70k consistently) in the site, you're jumping from a Pulse laser requirement to a Beam laser requirement... with just that one ship (the Arnon). keeping things in Pulse laser range might meet the time sink requirement you're looking for.
-5 ship limit / payout amount -Arnon range (select a ship other than the Arnon) -Jams reducing effective number of ships by 1 -tankiness of the sansha rats
something's gotta give.
this is confusing, but hey let's talk balance reasons
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
There used to be a complete post here, then I clicked "post" and it was gone :( |
Alan Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:44:14 -
[212] - Quote
There used to be a complete post here, then I clicked "post" and it was gone :(
EDIT: I compared two waves in scout sites to a heavy spawn upon warpin in a Nation Mining Colony (Vanguard site). Both scout site waves had over 1 million EHP, while the NMC had just over 600k EHP. If the Vylades are removed from this the mentioned waves still have between 400k and 600k EHP. Suggestion: Remove the kiting cruisers, bring more frigates. Thank you for your time.
EDIT2: Thanks Kendra Zane for mentioning going back and hoping my browser still had the text saved!
CCP RedDawn wrote:
We are aware of the Antem and Vylade orbit ranges and the jamming amounts that mess with the overall balance. The re-balance is meant to simply bring them more in line with the risk vs reward of the higher-tiered sites.
Currently, Scout sites on TQ don't reward enough and are under-utilised. These upcoming changes should alleviate this somewhat.
I did not see this reply. Anyways, gives me something new to comment on.
Currently, scout sites on TQ are still under-utilised. They will stay under-utilised, since you only need to add two logi's to a scout fleet and you can fly a non-efficient VG fleet which will make more than a scout fleet. Grinding through mountains of EHP is no fun, especially if one of your DPS ships is jammed out.
Let me compare a wave in a scout site to the highest EHP wave in vanguard sites. All Sansha information was taken from this site. The Vanguard site is a Nation Mining Colony with a heavy spawn on warpin (5 Romi's, one Mara, and some frigates); 5x Romi: -¦105.500 EHP/ship - 527.500 EHP 1x Mara: -¦29.500 EHP Assorted frigates (Tama's, Eysturs): Let's go with 100k EHP, we're talking about a heavy spawn here and I'm trying to prove a point. That gives us just over 650k EHP to grind through, which doesn't take us too long, since all these ships (except the Mara) are brawlers which will orbit at max 18 kilometers.
Now, let's take a look at a regular wave in one of the scout sites, Propaganda Cluster, third wave (information is probably incorrect, but if it's listed, it was there): 1x Lirsautton: No more than 20k EHP (don't have it written down here, also, what the hell 3x Arnon: 65.400 EHP/ship - 196.200 EHP 3x Vylade: 274.900 EHP/ship - 824.700 EHP 1x Antem: 87.700 EHP 1x Uitra: 132.000 EHP 1x Youl: I'll ignore this one, it's almost like it's made of paper This brings us to a total of 1.260.600 EHP. Yes. That's pretty close to twice the EHP in a heavy first wave in a NMC, but... You have about half the DPS if you're going with spidertanking battleships, since one of your ships will be jammed out till the final Arnon drops. Also, all cruisers, except for the bomber, orbit at medium to long range, which makes it a pain to kill these ships.
Wait, that's not fair! This is an exception!
I present to you, the second wave of the Distress Beacon: 1x Lirsautton: Assume 20k EHP 4x Arnon: 65.400 EHP/ship, 261.600 EHP 2x Uitra: 132.000 EHP/ship, 264.000 EHP 2x Vylade: 274.900 EHP/ship, 549.800 EHP 1x Youl. Lol. ... for a total of 1.095.400 EHP. And again, all ships orbit at medium to long range, closest range is the Uitra, which orbits at 30 kilometers.
Ok, ok, we'll just remove the Vylades from the scout sites...
Propaganda Cluster, wave three: 435.900 EHP. Distress Beacon, wave two: 545.600 EHP. Both sites will still take ages. Again, I'd like to suggest using more frigates instead of high EHP kiting cruisers. Isn't the difficulty of incursions supposed to be scout>vanguard>assault>headquarters? |
Joe Neal
Koa Mai Hoku Cult of War
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 22:01:48 -
[213] - Quote
I am Betting after days two days they should be able to see the numbers and see that they should have just fixed what we told them before releasing it. reduce jams, payment should b slightly higher. make it to where they are decent to run but not as good as vg or assults. i mean it should just go in order. that should b easy for them. |
Alan Artemisa
Calaran Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:40:05 -
[214] - Quote
Agreed. Replacing the Arnons with Niarja's and the Vylades with Romis would already help a lot (get the EHP down). Anyways, we'll see if we're listen at when the next release comes out |
Joseph Neil Andven
Ultimate Legacy
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:40:10 -
[215] - Quote
Any news if anything going to get modified in scouts yet CCP? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23181
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:02:48 -
[216] - Quote
there is the possibility this is exactly what was intended, to keep a full vanguard team busy.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Doc J
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 17:27:19 -
[217] - Quote
Damn man - Distress Beacon way too much jamming, neuting and EHP for a 3 man gang.
Admitably, i've been practicing these on sisi solo but i have no idea how a small gang would defeat that much going on. |
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 12:38:36 -
[218] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:there is the possibility this is exactly what was intended, to keep a full vanguard team busy.
Well you actually can take the 5 ships, fly VGs with them(4+1) and do the VG sites just as fast for 3 times the payout. Overall the jamming, EHP and the requirement of sniper, or at least have medium range dps setups is ridiculous(not a single VG site needs that). Beside it being a wasted opportunity to give smaller hulls a playground and use a bit of movement and hacking/re spawns/multi objectives on grid to favour smaller hulls compared to larger ones they are not even worth running in a expensive VG setup, leave alone being a easier entry option for newer players or small corps. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23181
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 19:07:02 -
[219] - Quote
I think we're in agreement. it used to be that -no one- did scout sites, but now, when Vanguards aren't available, the expectation is that Vanguard teams will run them without something else to do (while maybe grumbling about it).
I might not understand the respawn sequence correctly, though. are there times when Scout sites are available when Vanguards are not?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 08:28:12 -
[220] - Quote
While there will be always Vanguard sites, there can be a issue of to many fleets try to run them, reduce every system to 2-3 sites what requires a lot of waiting, switching the systems and contests. Another thing is that you need a capable VG contest FC, not only being experienced enough with contests on grid, but that can also predict the movement of other fleets, has a eye on the other fleets and free sites in the system and know a lot about fleet composition of the other fleets to know what site will be most likely free. This kind of FC is normally a fairly limited resource for most channels, since that skills have to be acquired by doing a lot of VGs under such conditions, what not every channel does and requires a lot more dedication and patience than you will see on most newer FCs. Normally this solves itself by people upgrading her VG fleets into AS or the big channels start HQ fleet, what draws enough people out. Another thing is that this is mostly limited to the 12-18.00 TZ when there are a lot of IS boxing fleets around(currently more than real player fleets most of the time), that take a break, do something else in eve or go afk after 18.00.
While it is exhausting to run VGs as FC under such conditions(because it requires a lot more scouting and good timing if you only have 5-6 dps on grid because your ability to contest with that is close to zero), Scout sites would only pay 30M a hour, I can't scale the fleet like in VG, because doing the sites with only 1-2 dps would take forever by the jamming and I can't put 1-2 more people on grid with literally the same ISK/h to upgrade to AS or split into 2 VG fleets once you have enough. Overall in its current form it isn't a alternative for channels, what I don't even think is so bad, because if it would it would fill up with IS Boxers fairly quick otherwise. However the site type is also not really useful to anybody else, it doesn't provide a option for new players or small corps, it doesn't provide a playground for smaller hulls that are not likely to get on grid with most channels in bigger sites and what is rather sad in my opinion. |
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Rain6637
Team Evil
19772
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 19:10:00 -
[221] - Quote
Yeah, so scout sites have swung from one extreme (worthless) to the other (too much trouble for the reward). President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23181
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 19:10:08 -
[222] - Quote
Yeah, so scout sites have swung from one extreme (worthless) to another (too much trouble for the reward).
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
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frommishj
Altus Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2014.09.29 04:44:40 -
[223] - Quote
Ok I am very disappointed in the new scout sites. Before they were too easy and you got nothing from them but now you get jammed no matter what. Making it useless. I have been working on many different fits on the test server but none work. I created a loki with 60 ladar strength and it was jammed the moment I entered the site. I was then permajammed till i decided to warp out. No one will run these sites because they are such a pain. In all honest CCP just needs to cut out the jams. Their health is enough to make sure not many people run them. The isk payout is still too low to care. In my opinion it was a waste of time changing the scout sites. |
Din'stalor Alaric
The Congregation Cult of War
139
|
Posted - 2014.10.21 23:42:51 -
[224] - Quote
so sad thay there hasnt been a response from ccp in a month on this subject =(
Solo 4 Life.1v1 always honored, flying without booster alt since Oct 2010. No ransoms honored even if offered :)
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
3
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Posted - 2014.11.20 23:04:35 -
[225] - Quote
I haven't posted a long reply for a while yet, so here we go. Grab yourself a drink before you continue reading.
tl;dr: Checked out scout sites, still broken.
After running a couple of HQ sites on my new incursion alt I decided to start a fleet with my own community, however, we didn't get enough people for a VG fleet, so, we decided to run a few scout sites, for science.
Fleet setup: 2x Artillery Machariel 1x Autocannon Machariel 1x Blaster Vindicator (refitted to railguns at some point, you'll understand when I tell you) 1x Railgun Tengu (joined later)
Employed tactic: Warp to the beacon at zero, shoot everything in sight. Primary jams, then logi, then all others.
First site - Forward Reconnaissance Outpost: At the warpin of our very first site we landed on a grid with the following NPCs: 988 dps, 503.2k EHP, 5 jammers, 3 logi
With almost 1k dps (988), over 500k EHP (503.2k) and the aforementioned EWAR on grid I decided to nope out.
Second site - Forward Reconnaissance Outpost: Initial wave: 0 dps, 92.3k EHP, 1 jammer, 3 logi's
We quickly blapped the Niarja and spent a little more time on the spidertanking Maras (the RR is actually working now, yay?)
First reinforcement wave: 216 dps, 98.5k EHP, 2 jammers
This wave wasn't too hard either, our shortrange dps quickly killed the frigates while the snipers focused on the Antem.
Second reinforcement wave:
- 2 Niarjas
- 1 Jel
- 1 Antem
- 1 Arnon
- 1 Mara
380 dps, 139.4k EHP, 3 jammers, 1 logi
This wave wasn't too hard either, frigs died to our shortrange dps while the cruisers died to our snipers.
Third reinforcement wave:
- 2 Orkashu's
- 1 Jel
- 1 Eystur
- 2 Arnons
- 1 Antem
- 3 Maras
664 dps, 324.9k EHP, 4 jammers, 3 logi's
Same tactic as for the previous waves, however, the Maras were pretty efficient when it came to repping the other NPCs, which made it a lot harder to clear this wave.
Final wave:
- 1 Niarja
- 2 Orkashu's
- 2 Jels
- 2 Arnons
- 1 Antem
- 1 Mara
592 dps, 262.8k EHP, 5 jammers, 1 logi
The frigate jammers primaried the shortrange Machariel, but came within the web range of the Vindicator, o7 gf. The Arnons were again killed by the snipers.
Forward Reconnaissance Outpost time: About 20-30 minutes with 4 faction battleships and one logi. Most of the time was spent killing high EHP targets.
Third site - Propaganda Cluster:
Initial spawn: 496 dps, 212k EHP, 2 jammers, 2 logi's
We managed to outdamage the Mara reps and quickly dispatched of the jammers, the Maras were next and the Antem was our last target, but this is where the fun starts....
First reinforcement wave:
- 1 Romi
- 1 Antem
- 1 Jel
- 2 Vylades
- 4 Maras
536 dps, 864.5k EHP, 4 logi's, 2 squad boosters
For the people who do not know the Vylades yet, they are squad boosters that give a boost in shield resistances for all other incursion Sansha ships on grid. Combining this with 4 Maras that are remote repairing they are a real pain. Did I mention that a Vylade has 275k EHP? Anyways, we primaried a Mara, got it down to half shields, then it caught reps. We had the shortrange DPS kill the Jel (we just alphaed it) and the Romi (which took them some more time, but the snipers forced the Maras to rep eachother). After that we all started shooting the same Mara in an attempt to break the reps on it. Queue 20 minutes of frustration after which it died to armor bleed, followed by another 7 minutes of killing a second Mara. The last two Maras weren't too hard and the Vylades just took some time. However, we were almost 30 minutes in the site already. In the meantime we had the Vindicator refit to railguns to help us kill the Maras, also, our railgu joined us at the beginning of this wave.
Second reinforcement wave:
- 1 Jel
- 2 Youls
- 1 Antem
- 3 Uitras
- 1 Vylade
- 1 Mara
860 dps, 885.6k EHP, 1 logi, 1 squad booster
Another wave with RR and a squad booster, however, this time there was (fortunately) just one Mara, which died quickly to our combined fire. The short range targets were taken out quickly as well, but the sniper battle dragged on for a few more minutes.
Third reinforcement wave: 1920 dps, 633k EHP
In a Vanguard site, named Nation Mining Colony, you will encounter 5 Romis every now and then in the initial spawn. However, here you will (usually) have two logi's to rep you and up to 10 dps ships to take out the incoming cruisers. We had one logi, two artillery Machariels, one autocannon Machariel and a railgun Vindicator (the railgu bailed, he felt his sanity was at risk). By this time we were already 36 minutes into the site, we were facing a lot of DPS so I made the call to leave.
Propaganda Cluster time: 36 minutes (incomplete). We had 1 logi, 4 faction battleships and a T3 cruiser. Most of the time was spent breaking the Maras. Next time I'd like to try an ECM Scorpion to break their spidertank.
[second post incoming] |
Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:05:24 -
[226] - Quote
[reserved] |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:37:20 -
[227] - Quote
keep in mind they may be balancing for a player behavior, not the stats. and not tell you, in that classic CCP way.
excellent posts, though, that was fun to read.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:44:05 -
[228] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:keep in mind they may be balancing for a player behavior, not the stats. and not tell you, in that classic CCP way.
excellent posts, though, that was fun to read.
Probably more fun to read than to be involved in. The Mara spidertank is real >.> I'd love to try a setup with a Scorpion though, but then you still have the issue of the EHP of the Sanshas.
Also, if they want to make incursions difficult again I'd love to see all levels of sites redone (I say this as a person who makes most of his ISK in incursions), because Vanguards and Headquarters are stupidly easy at the moment. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25245
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:44:54 -
[229] - Quote
the mara spider tank, was that something that was updated along with the sleeper RR AI?
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:46:37 -
[230] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:the mara spider tank, was that updated along with the sleeper RR AI?
I am not 100% sure, but I think it was. I've never seen Mara's repping anything until after the sleeper RR update. |
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Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
784
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 23:50:06 -
[231] - Quote
I cannot say that I am happy with their current state. So! We shall see what we can do.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25246
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 00:12:20 -
[232] - Quote
****, so scout sites are even harder than when i ran through them last time... I might try again for kicks.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Andrew Jester
Origin. Black Legion.
802
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 01:26:28 -
[233] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:the mara spider tank, was that updated along with the sleeper RR AI?
I'm pretty sure the sleeper RR AI change was a side effect of fixing Maras.
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
25246
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 02:31:55 -
[234] - Quote
hahaha I think you're right. I apologize.
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
11
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 08:31:49 -
[235] - Quote
For anybody who's interested, I'll be online today, just poke me on TQ, we can test some scout sites on singularity. Can't test on TQ because wardecs >.> |
Jedediah Arndtz
Jedediah Arndtz Corporation
34
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 18:52:21 -
[236] - Quote
Alan Artemisa wrote: stuff and things
Have you maybe tried nightmares? Or posting your fits? Cause arty machs kinda can't track **** for ****.
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
12
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 19:13:13 -
[237] - Quote
Jedediah Arndtz wrote:Alan Artemisa wrote: stuff and things
Have you maybe tried nightmares? Or posting your fits? Cause arty machs kinda can't track **** for ****.
Unfortunately, most of my community's Nightmare pilots have gone AWOL ;) Also, this character can fly one (and has one in Jita), but there's a slight issue with wardeccers :) |
Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box Snuffed Out
787
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 22:41:22 -
[238] - Quote
To add onto this. Scout sites will be up for rebalance. It will not be until the first quarter of next year. But, its getting scheduled in.
Member of CSM9
CSM9 Weekly Updates
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Alan Artemisa
Dutch East Querious Company Phoebe Freeport Republic
12
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 10:10:37 -
[239] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:To add onto this. Scout sites will be up for rebalance. It will not be until the first quarter of next year. But, its getting scheduled in.
Thanks for telling us. Guess I'll run VG's and HQ's till then ;) |
Jack Rannoch
Rannoch Holdings
0
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 15:44:39 -
[240] - Quote
Wow, thanks for informing us mate. Glad they're considering a re-balance. As for the other incursion sites: Yeah, maybe they should consider re-balancing VG's and HQ's as well or maybe even fixing them. Since the VG OTA's are still randomly eating your drones without any valid reason whatsoever.
o7 Cheers |
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
26693
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 05:27:47 -
[241] - Quote
so have these sites been made difficult due to the default warpability with dreads? (and gate travel for caps)
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Twitter |-ámk.III | Imgur
| Evening Games Club: Casino concept redefined |
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Alan Artemisa
Krieger Industries Inc. Phoebe Freeport Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 23:58:57 -
[242] - Quote
From the CSM winter summit minutes:
Quote:Sugar Kyle also asked about Incursion Scout sites. CCP Affinity said they're aware they need to make more changes, but it's not on the immediate roadmap.
Thanks for bringing it up! I know who I'll vote for this year :) It still leaves the question about when the scout sites will be fixed, but I guess we'll have to be patient (EVE is a game for patient players after all ;) ) |
Agent Unknown
Night Theifs DamnedNation
23
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 16:21:17 -
[243] - Quote
Alan Artemisa wrote:From the CSM winter summit minutes: Quote:Sugar Kyle also asked about Incursion Scout sites. CCP Affinity said they're aware they need to make more changes, but it's not on the immediate roadmap. Thanks for bringing it up! I know who I'll vote for this year :) It still leaves the question about when the scout sites will be fixed, but I guess we'll have to be patient (EVE is a game for patient players after all ;) )
Nice necro. |
Murauke
Assisted Homicide
15
|
Posted - 2015.02.27 01:22:15 -
[244] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:I cannot say that I am happy with their current state. So! We shall see what we can do.
Did anything actually happen with Scout feedback? I don't know if I missed something but scouts are fairly hard completing them.
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