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The great T3 rebalance

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Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 753	Posted - 2014.08.26 11:17:00 - [121] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: baltec1 wrote: There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time. What issue? Nullifier without cloak would be useless in solo flying. In fleets it doesn't matter as you admited. You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets. Having a ship that is uncatchable is never a good thing. Only its not uncatchable, though admittedly harder to catch in k space than w space.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Ixtab. 1769	Posted - 2014.08.26 11:24:00 - [122] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser. Fail * The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD * The eagle has better damage projection * The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD * The eagle has better lock range * The eagle has better scan res * The eagle has higher shield resistances Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all. +1
Corben Arctus Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 19	Posted - 2014.08.26 11:27:00 - [123] - Quote Odithia wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Since the balancing pass to most of the sub caps, i don't see how T3 ships can be considered overpowered anymore. Well if you compare a Tengu to an Eagle or a Cerberus, there is little point in using the laters. I suppose the same applies with every other race, except maybe the Protheus/Ishtar. Wait what? A Cerberus is faster, cheaper, and has better projection than a Tengu. (Disregarding super bling 100MN AB fit, but then again, cheaper).
Odithia Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2014.08.26 12:50:00 - [124] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: baltec1 wrote: Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser. Fail * The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD * The eagle has better damage projection * The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD * The eagle has better lock range * The eagle has better scan res * The eagle has higher shield resistances Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all. They use them with AB not MWD.
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus S I L E N T. 93	Posted - 2014.08.26 14:34:00 - [125] - Quote Elisiist Aldent wrote: T3 is kinda the jack of all trades. Just the problem with a jack of all trades is that whatever the T3 can do.. something can do better! ORLY? What else got BS EHP with better resists, BC damage and damage application, while being more mobile than both...
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1579	Posted - 2014.08.26 14:37:00 - [126] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: baltec1 wrote: Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser. Fail * The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD * The eagle has better damage projection * The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD * The eagle has better lock range * The eagle has better scan res * The eagle has higher shield resistances Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all. FAIL you have no idea how to fit a tengu just by your very first line. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1579	Posted - 2014.08.26 14:37:00 - [127] - Quote Caius Sivaris wrote: Elisiist Aldent wrote: T3 is kinda the jack of all trades. Just the problem with a jack of all trades is that whatever the T3 can do.. something can do better! ORLY? What else got BS EHP with better resists, BC damage and damage application, while being more mobile than both... no no no you are wrong. Proteus has MORE ehp than battleships and mroe damage than most of them... :P "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 65	Posted - 2014.08.26 15:08:00 - [128] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: being uncatchable is not an acceptable capability. No matter the price. Specially now that you can refit in space. Such famous group of PvPers as PoH can't catch T3s, shame... On my current skills tengu align times with nullifier: 4,7s wihtout agility rigs (such an offensieve monster this is, i can tell you , 90 dps in non combat explo fit) 3,7s with rigs 2,9s with rigs and implants Solution would be decrease agility on nullifier subsystem to give opportunity window. Kagura Nikon wrote: On my view the cloaky subsystem needs to go, replaced by some proper different offensive subsystem. (like an anti frigate focused one for each race). Merc want a fight, merc removing covop, but buff offensive!!!. How many possibilites for merc...so few for ppl who don't want to fight. You want to remove cloak? Why not nerf scanning abilities, then hacking strenght to 5, so much generalistion nerf, so wow...much like. From ship with many roles and fits, 3 will last. Fitting argument? like i will be refiting tengu for every jump in null...because of reason. Don't you want to nerf T2 haulers? I can build fit that align faster than my tengu, how's about that? baltec1 wrote: Having a ship that is uncatchable is never a good thing. Neiher are ship that can insta lock and scram. Having ships that can't pass gate camps is even worser. Why do you think they allowing MWD trick? baltec1 wrote: You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets. What keeps you from using it now as they is? Removing covert cloak make this hull worse than SoE ships. Generalisation, so much tears i predict, funny times ahead, just can't wait Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á I am the night. I'm Bantam.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 12805	Posted - 2014.08.26 17:14:00 - [129] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: What keeps you from using it now as they is? Why would you when you can just warp out of a bubble cloaked? Jeremiah Saken wrote: Removing covert cloak make this hull worse than SoE ships. Generalisation, so much tears i predict, funny times ahead, just can't wait I didn't say remove the cov ops cloak, just don't allow it to be used with the nullifier. You have to be an utter moron to be caught when using a cloaky nullified t3. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Sir Livingston Club Deadspace 247	Posted - 2014.08.26 17:30:00 - [130] - Quote It appears that some people don't understand logic. Tech 1 < Tech 2 < Tech 3 Tech 3 was designed to be the most powerful. Stating that they shouldn't be most powerful is absurd. EVE Online. Is there a game more worthwhile to play? Nope. http://www.youtube.com/JonnyPew
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 12805	Posted - 2014.08.26 17:42:00 - [131] - Quote Sir Livingston wrote: It appears that some people don't understand logic. Tech 1 < Tech 2 < Tech 3 Tech 3 was designed to be the most powerful. Stating that they shouldn't be most powerful is absurd. CCP themselves have stated that T3 are going to land between T1 and T2. Here is a handy and easy to read chart Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 754	Posted - 2014.08.26 17:43:00 - [132] - Quote baltec1 wrote: I didn't say remove the cov ops cloak, just don't allow it to be used with the nullifier. You have to be an utter moron to be caught when using a cloaky nullified t3. I've not had much luck with it myself but I don't really fly small ships and not really practised at it - but some people I know have a fairly good record for decloaking, bumping out of alignment and killing nullified cloaky t3s - sure no guarantee they will catch someone but that is how it should be.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 12805	Posted - 2014.08.26 17:53:00 - [133] - Quote Rroff wrote: baltec1 wrote: I didn't say remove the cov ops cloak, just don't allow it to be used with the nullifier. You have to be an utter moron to be caught when using a cloaky nullified t3. I've not had much luck with it myself but I don't really fly small ships and not really practised at it - but some people I know have a fairly good record for decloaking, bumping out of alignment and killing nullified cloaky t3s - sure no guarantee they will catch someone but that is how it should be. No you don't. By the time you see it and point your cepter at its general location it is already in warp. Even cepter fleets don't bother trying to catch them. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 594	Posted - 2014.08.26 17:55:00 - [134] - Quote baltec1 wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: That's why you flew Drake, Maelstrom, and Megathron fleets, right? The Tengu needs good prop and engineering subs. There is only one good PVP sub for each, shoehorning the Tengu into a 100mn AB missile boat. As for the tank, I've said that the buffer subs should have a 5% bonus, not a 10% bonus. Paired with decent prop/engineering subs, the Tengu will be balanced. That seems to be the only T3 you can complain about, so are we done yet? And regardless, the decisions will be made by CCP. Let's just hope they do it right the first time, rather than half assing it like they did with HACs (we ended up with OP Ishtars and shitall useless Muninns). We retired drake fleet because the tengu is better at being a drake. The drake nerf was just the final nail in the coffin. Loki, legion and tengu are better at being command ships than command ships. The Legion is better at being a Zealot than a Zealot. We use the web Loki and a point proteus over the dedicated t2 ships, the Legion is much better at being a pilgrim than the pilgrim. There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time. The command ships thing need to be balanced, yes. Zealot is still **. Loki and Proteus recon fits are tankier, but have less range. Also Recons haven't had their balance pass, so it's a moot point. Pilgrim is laughably bad. Kagura Nikon wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: baltec1 wrote:** There is also the issue with T3 getting both the nullifier and the cov ops at the same time. What issue? Nullifier without cloak would be useless in solo flying. In fleets it doesn't matter as you admited. being uncatchable is not an acceptable capability. No matter the price. Specially now that you can refit in space. On my view the cloaky subsystem needs to go, replaced by some proper different offensive subsystem. (like an anti frigate focused one for each race). Keep I'd rather keep the cloaky sub and scrap the nullifier sub if that's how we're doing it. I like cloaky T3s. Alternatively, nullifier subs could have a comparatively awful align time. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 755	Posted - 2014.08.26 18:02:00 - [135] - Quote baltec1 wrote: No you don't. By the time you see it and point your cepter at its general location it is already in warp. Even cepter fleets don't bother trying to catch them. Depends a bit on whether you get lucky or not with the server tick(s) and skills/implants/fit/pimp of the t3.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 12805	Posted - 2014.08.26 18:08:00 - [136] - Quote Rroff wrote: baltec1 wrote: No you don't. By the time you see it and point your cepter at its general location it is already in warp. Even cepter fleets don't bother trying to catch them. Depends a bit on whether you get lucky or not with the server tick(s) and skills/implants/fit/pimp of the t3. You will always cloak before anything can target you and you do not need to pimp anything to get into warp before anything decloaks you. They only way you will be caught is if you mess up badly. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 67	Posted - 2014.08.26 18:18:00 - [137] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Why would you when you can just warp out of a bubble cloaked? I can still warp out from bubble cloaked, not to mention i would be waking in fresh clone soon after. Burning through bubble in T3? Blind would find me. baltec1 wrote: You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets. You can use nullifier in fleets now, why making change to nerf solo players? You still have the oportuinity to build nullifed combat ships but covert t3 is an abomination. Becuase you don't bother to do proper gate camp? There shouldn't be situation that there are no escape from gate camp. One kind of ship have that ability, not cheap, skill heavy, with SP loss drawback. Why covert cloak is so overpowerd to you anyway? 100% cloaked speed? I don't think MWD+cloak trick would be worser from covops cloak warping on agility rigged/implanted T3. Sir Livingston wrote: Tech 3 was designed to be the most powerful. Stating that they shouldn't be most powerful is absurd. CCP logic. I hope they remove SP loss. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á I am the night. I'm Bantam.
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Ixtab. 1771	Posted - 2014.08.26 18:32:00 - [138] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Rek Seven wrote: baltec1 wrote: Better firepower, BS tank, perma prop mod, same range. We have been using t3 for years because they are simply better than any other cruiser. Fail * The tengu is slower and it can't perma run a MWD * The eagle has better damage projection * The eagle has lower sig when running a MWD * The eagle has better lock range * The eagle has better scan res * The eagle has higher shield resistances Basically for the cost of all those weaknesses, the isk and the sp loss, you get better tank and better dps. Doesn't sound OP to me at all. FAIL you have no idea how to fit a tengu just by your very first line. So you're saying that a tengu with an ab is faster than an eagle with a MWD? You know nothing... Either way what i said was 100% correct regardless of what prop mod you choose to fit. +1
Terranid Meester Tactical Assault and Recon Unit 229	Posted - 2014.08.26 19:28:00 - [139] - Quote Extra sub-systems for all sub-system types?
SMT008 SnaiLs aNd FroGs 754	Posted - 2014.08.26 19:37:00 - [140] - Quote As I said a couple months ago in a T3 rebalance thread, here's what I would do : T3s' gimmick is to be reconfigurable to adapt to the situation. But who really reconfigures a single T3 for different tasks ? No one. They just buy 3 hulls and fit each accordingly. Remove rigs : Rigs are a costly waste, etc etc. Subsystems should amount for a very small percentage of the ships' price : If subsystems are 50M/100M a pop, well, I'll only carry maybe one replacement set and that will be it. Where's the adaptability here ? Subsystems should have a very low volume so that every T3 can have a nice handful of them to match different situations. If carrying 10 subs (That's 2 complete transformation of your ship in your cargohold) fills the cargo...well it's no good. Every "potential setup" should be viable if not good : Drone-Proteus sucks. T3 logistics suck. Drone-Legion sucks. Shield Loki is sub-par. Shield Proteus is nowhere to be seen, could be an interesting setup. HM Legion anyone ? RLML Tengu maybe ? You get the idea. Every potential use for a T3 should be valid and not suck completely like T3 logistics. T3s should more-or-less match other cruisers : Currently, they sure have LOADS of EHP, but damn their mobility sucks compared to every other cruisers. Maybe some "heavy duty" setups (like brick-tank Proteus) should keep the low mobility in exchange for high EHP, but some other setups should have HAC-tanks with HAC-mobility, see what I mean ? Cut down their DPS in brick-tank setups, keep their good DPS in HAC-like configs, etc T3s should be able to refit in space : If possible, T3s should be able to refit off themselves with conditions : Not having been shot at for 5 minutes, Takes 1-2 minutes to change subs. No cap-consumption for onlining/fitting modules. With those changes, this is what you get : T3s are no longer BS-sized tanks with Command-ship-sized DPS. In brick-tank versions, they have low DPS. In HAC-tank version, they are fast like HACs and hit like HAC+. You can have a fleet of T3s. A true fleet of T3s. This is what I want to see : 10 Legions, 2 Lokis, 4 Proteus. "Guys, we're encountering Ishtars !" "Legions, I want 4 of you to switch from brick-tank setup to logistic setup, Lokis, switch to recon-setup with long-range webs. Proteus, switch from heavy DPS to long-range tackle. I also want 2 Legions to switch to long-range neuting setup !" "Guys, they're switching to short-range Megas !" "Legions, I want 6 logis, we can tank their DPS. Lokis, fit for full DPS, load Fusion ammo. 2 Proteus for full DPS, 2 Proteus for full damp !" "Guys, capitals ! Legions, 5 of you switch to neuting setup. Lokis, switch to armor logi, Proteus, full DPS !" That's what I want to see. Adaptability should be the name of the game. Effectiveness should more or less match their equivalent T2 cruiser in their area of expertise. Price should remain the same but should shift from subs to hull. If you remove one thing from that list, well, it breaks the whole thing. Refit from station/carrier ? Well, might as well dock and undock another ship. Subs keep their current price ? You'll carry a couple subs but that's it, no wider adaptability. If T3s keep their bricktank-niceDPS+recon scheme, everyone will just keep that cookie-cutter setup and just add T3 logistics to it, which shouldn't happen. T3s should be able to reach every end of the cruiser-meta spectrum. Slow-fat-solid-lowDPS, Fast-agile-lowtank-highDPS, Fast-agile-goodRecon-lowDPS, Slow-fat-solid-LogisticCapabilities etc. This is, imo, the most interesting and effective way to change T3s to match CCP's will to rebalance and change things until they're interesting and flyable.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 67	Posted - 2014.08.26 19:42:00 - [141] - Quote SMT008 what are the drawbacks of your T3's after rebalance? removed rigs? anything else? SP loss? Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á I am the night. I'm Bantam.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 12805	Posted - 2014.08.26 20:29:00 - [142] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: baltec1 wrote: Why would you when you can just warp out of a bubble cloaked? I can still warp out from bubble cloaked, not to mention i would be waking in fresh clone soon after. Burning through bubble in T3? Blind would find me. baltec1 wrote: You can use the MWD cloak trick with it and it will continue to be a nice tool to have in fleets. You can use nullifier in fleets now, why making change to nerf solo players? You still have the oportuinity to build nullifed combat ships but covert t3 is an abomination. Becuase you don't bother to do proper gate camp? There shouldn't be situation that there are no escape from gate camp. One kind of ship have that ability, not cheap, skill heavy, with SP loss drawback. Why covert cloak is so overpowerd to you anyway? 100% cloaked speed? I don't think MWD+cloak trick would be worser from covops cloak warping There also shouldnt be an impossible to catch cruiser. Gate camps can be avoided, blockade runners do it all the time. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 758	Posted - 2014.08.26 20:39:00 - [143] - Quote Due to the amount of versatility rigs bring (and possibly being a factor that they are one of the biggest sinks of T2 rigs - though in the long term that would possibly sort it self out) I'm against removing rigs - however I do think that some degree of flexibility in regard to rigs needs to happen - my personal preference being selectable groups of rigs with the number of groups tied to the level of the strategic cruiser skill. There is no way realistically to replicate the range of potential possibilities via rolling the bonuses into the sub-systems.
SMT008 SnaiLs aNd FroGs 755	Posted - 2014.08.26 21:09:00 - [144] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: SMT008 what are the drawbacks of your T3's after rebalance? removed rigs? anything else? SP loss? Removed rigs is a good start, a Proteus without trimarks isn't all that impressive anymore. I think that removed rigs + rebalancing subs will bring a good result. SP Loss should be removed, I really don't see the point of that "drawback".
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 594	Posted - 2014.08.26 21:29:00 - [145] - Quote SMT008 wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: SMT008 what are the drawbacks of your T3's after rebalance? removed rigs? anything else? SP loss? Removed rigs is a good start, a Proteus without trimarks isn't all that impressive anymore. I think that removed rigs + rebalancing subs will bring a good result. SP Loss should be removed, I really don't see the point of that "drawback". Rebalancing subs is what really needs to happen. A lot of people clamor for a "nerf" but don't seem to get that there isn't a singule hull that is OP like with the Ishtar, but rather one or two subsystems that throw off the balance of specific setups. You can fit a Tengu to be an excellent solo boat, or it can be a steaming pile of ****. It depends on the subs used. Remove rigs or nerf HP bonused defensive subs (I think doing both would be rather severe to ships like the Loki), then buff the useless subs, and T3s will be in a good place. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 68	Posted - 2014.08.26 21:40:00 - [146] - Quote baltec1 wrote: There also shouldnt be an impossible to catch cruiser. Gate camps can be avoided, blockade runners do it all the time. What are you doing? Arrow in the knee? It doesn't make any sense. Blockade runners can avoid, T3 with certain fitting can't? Just because it's cruiser class? Not to mention BR can haul more cargo than T3's. SMT008 wrote: But who really reconfigures a single T3 for different tasks ? No one. They just buy 3 hulls and fit each accordingly. Exactly. I have one tengu for L4's and one for exploration. I may change propulsion subsystems on exploration fit but core ship stays the same. SMT008 wrote: Removed rigs is a good start, a Proteus without trimarks isn't all that impressive anymore. I think that removed rigs + rebalancing subs will bring a good result. Maybe overheating to reach T2 role level? Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á I am the night. I'm Bantam.
SMT008 SnaiLs aNd FroGs 755	Posted - 2014.08.26 21:49:00 - [147] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: SMT008 wrote: Removed rigs is a good start, a Proteus without trimarks isn't all that impressive anymore. I think that removed rigs + rebalancing subs will bring a good result. Maybe overheating to reach T2 role level? Mhmm, I don't really know. I'd say let T3s match T2 stats more or less. Considering their price, and considering their current stat, I'm not sure about giving them sub-T2 stats.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 68	Posted - 2014.08.26 22:03:00 - [148] - Quote SMT008 wrote: Mhmm, I don't really know. I'd say let T3s match T2 stats more or less. Considering their price, and considering their current stat, I'm not sure about giving them sub-T2 stats. but...but...that's the Plan. Didn't you see the Chart? Edit: every ship supposed to have drawbacks. Ask Duo of Nerf. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á I am the night. I'm Bantam.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1219	Posted - 2014.08.26 22:35:00 - [149] - Quote SMT008 wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: SMT008 wrote: Removed rigs is a good start, a Proteus without trimarks isn't all that impressive anymore. I think that removed rigs + rebalancing subs will bring a good result. Maybe overheating to reach T2 role level? Mhmm, I don't really know. I'd say let T3s match T2 stats more or less. Considering their price, and considering their current stat, I'm not sure about giving them sub-T2 stats. What's the point of flying a T2 if a T3 can do it just as well since you want to give them the same stats but can also be used for an entirely different role? Remember, cost is not a balancing factor in EVE.
Sigras Conglomo 840	Posted - 2014.08.26 22:47:00 - [150] - Quote what if it could switch roles in combat as your fleet needed? I feel like this would be a useful thing that T2 ships just cannot do. Picture this scenario: Youre in a small to medium sized fleet of say 20 legions and 10 guardians and you get jumped by a battleship fleet of 40 ships, they have little to no RR support so you think you can take them, but they begin to put out far more DPS than your 10 guardians can keep up with. Luckily for you, your fleet was prepared for this and half of your legions are carrying RR subsystems with them. They refit mid combat and supplement your failing guardian force. Your enemy, seeing that you are now tanking their damage calls in an archon which drops into triage and begins RRing the battleships. Again your fleet adapts and 4-5 of your remaining DPS ships switch to curse mode and begin cap draining the triage archon. Once it is cap dry 3 of them switch back to DPS mode and focus it down with relative ease then proceed to destroy the remaining battleship fleet. Yes, T2 ships in those specific roles would be better, but your fleet doesnt know ahead of time what exactly it is going to be facing, so that point is moot; yes a zealot may do more DPS, and a guardian may rep more, and a curse may cap drain more, but the legion is the only one that can do all of those things on the fly as the fleet needs. I know that the mobile deployables can allow for this already, but it would be cool to see the T3 ships get a special "module bay" and the mobile depots only have 17,000 EHP so they dont tend to live very long in combat.

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