Display some awesomeness and actually address the points given.

We here at the Damien McCandless Institute of Behavioural Science call it "Salvosing"

I had a guy run over my motorcycle while doing 70 miles an hour. I still enjoy a good party but never did karaoke or ran around drunk and naked.

One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

I'm not here to compare sob stories, all I'm saying is I've lived an active enough life for me. Are you me? No? Then we're going to have different experiences and experience the same ones differently. I really hate it when I explain why I choose a quiet life now and someone tries to "out-victim" me, especially when I'm not trying to paint myself as a victim. It's really ******* immature and it's also a digression. Ramona is right, you're derailing.

If you suck at EVE, it's up to you to get better, it's not up to the devs to change the game to suit your suckiness at the expense of those of us who have adapted to what it is. So go **** yourselves you whiny twirps, and get on our level. I know I'm being an elitist right now, but I don't really care, you've pissed me off and you ******* deserve it. Fail at EVE, or not, it's actually your choice.

I think you missed it.

One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

This is an evergreen in Eve, though: the notion that making Eve more accessible to new players amounts to making it a themepark or "dumbing it down". I generally chalk it up to bittervet syndrome -- that since you had to grind up the hard way, new players should have to as well. That attitude makes no sense to me, but then I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

... SERIOUS BUSINESS players. ..."ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" ..."dumbing it down". ... bittervet syndrome

...I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.

One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

This is an evergreen in Eve, though: the notion that making Eve more accessible to new players amounts to making it a themepark or "dumbing it down". I generally chalk it up to bittervet syndrome -- that since you had to grind up the hard way, new players should have to as well. That attitude makes no sense to me, but then I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.

It is refreshing to see that some people understand that a belief that is contradictory to their own can still be valid!

I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.

I also remember when you could still return software to the store. I would often go buy a game at Wal Mart, install it, and then return it, claiming it didn't work on my computer.

Ah, those were the days.

Anyway, totally off topic, but wth, I havent had occasion for a "back in my day.." post in forever.

You just try telling that to Emperor Palpatine!

So when I say "I disagree, but Ill not tell you why", you are going to accept that as a valid position?

In this game? Sure because internet spaceships are a game. Not serious business!

One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

I will never get how some people find a why to think themselves all superior because they don't shoot people in a video game that allows shooting.

As far as making the game more accessible. CCP did that.

Revamping Tutorials, getting rid of learning skills, makig ships and weapons easier to train for. SAFTIES. Crime watch. improved CONCORD response times. Teircide that makes tech1 and faction ships and gear useful. Making the exploration system 'user friendly'. Making faction warfare as 'a lower barrier step into PVP' as they put it when they made it, more EHP for non-combat ships etc etc etc.

End result? EVE's year after year growth stopped or at least slowed down. Like I said, you people really think yo know what you want or what's best for noobs, but what you end up with is a game neither noobs nor vets want to play.

I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.

All you are saying is the game doesn't meet your definition of fun, which you have demonstrated is instant gratification nonsense.

I ran up $100 long distance phone bill playing a turn based game with my Commodore 64 and a 300 baud modem.

Did Walmart sell computer software in the 80's?

In this game? Sure because internet spaceships are a game. Not serious business!

All my current good friends I met through BBSes back in the 80s and 90s. Back in the days when the "online" was mostly local people. Lots of good "door" games from those days.

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To the thread topic: Of course there's a middle ground between helping new players to an extent and turning things into WoW-theme-park-land. I'm not even saying that some of the ideas given here of how to lead new players into PvP are inherently bad. But remember, even in WoW, you're not handed the Ultimate Mythical Armor and Sword on day one, and no one says to the new player: "Welcome, now you have the REAL ULTIMATE POWER, go forth and PvP against level 70 people and win!" There is such a thing as a learning curve even in that kind of game, and there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make it any less a "game," nor any less "entertaining."

As has been pointed out quite well by others, EVE is simply more so, and the challenge and learning curve only adds to the gratification for those who stick with it long enough to see results.

The game is fun for noobs there is nobody here that wasn't a noob at some point. And it used to be harder for noobs than it is now and yet we all found it fun enough to stay.

All you are saying is the game doesn't meet your definition of fun, which you have demonstrated is instant gratification nonsense.

Ok, well as this is a discussion forum, a discussion requires a proposition, then an evidence supported debate in order to achieve any concensus.

SO thanks for confirming that nothing you say is of any relevance whatsoever.

I just warped right on top of the same guy with a two month old character ratting in a destroyer in a .4 system for the third day in a row. Today I blew him up, sent him the isk to buy a new ship, emailed and chatted in local that he shouldn't do what he does, and still feel bad about it. He sent me a thank you note in Russian. He then brought out an Oracle and I couldn't shoot him because it would be like clubbing a baby seal.

Eve is a hard game to learn and a hard game to play, and that's intentional -- but it shouldn't be pointlessly hard to learn or play.

And the bittervets always complain about every step because they had to do it the hard way and it builds character or something.

the total lack of fitting or PVP/fleet training in the NPE. Making a player ferret out all that stuff on their own is "bad complexity" in my view