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The costs of PVP is too much for new players

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DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade 856	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:48:00 - [31] - Quote Pj Harvey wrote: Things used to be a LOT cheaper in eve, but CCP have been artificially raising the the cost of things by messing with drop rates and build costs of ships. 4 years ago a frig was 120,000, a cruiser was between 2.5 and 3.5 mil and the tier one battleships were 55/60 mil. CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon. Uh... what? When I started in 04 a Domi was 100m, a mega was 140m. Things cost less now then when I started. Though yes a few years ago domis were like 60m and a mega was 80 but still I can take your 'ah good old days' and raise you to near beginning 'ah good old days' But to the op: uh no. When I started playing, I could net 10m rather fast just mining. I'd blow it on hookers and blow and die a few times, but making 10m is nothing. And to the guy who said he makes 30m and hour doing null sec anoms.. you are doing it wrong. In a room full of dumb blondes, EvE is the smart red head on the other side of the room.-á Lots of men like dumb blondes, and not everyone will like the smart red head, but she doesn;t need to change to be a dumb blonde.-á She is perfect how she is.-á Thats EvE vs other mmo's.-á You either like the red head, or you don't.
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade 856	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:50:00 - [32] - Quote Otuk Andven wrote: Mizhir wrote: Not that I much about L4 missions as I haven't done them. But I know there are people who gets over 100mil/hr from them. So maybe it's time that refine your methods as 15mil/hr is extremely low. I'll admit I wasn't really building up my skills on the right stuff then but even now I can only make 30m an hour doing nullsec anomalies. As far as I can tell those 100m/hr are the faction ships speed running the missions and choosing good pay-outs. Torneach Structor wrote: Otuk Andven wrote: an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M? Like, seriously. Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate. https://zkillboard.com/kill/33386391/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/33285953/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/32874574/ Fine the Kestrals were actually about 6m but my point still stands. Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance Yea.. no, you can make a crap load more then 30m just by chanining belts rats in a T1 BS. Dunno what the hades you are doing, but your doing it wrong. 10 year vet, mostly industry and I can make more then you mining in an hour then you can ratting? I all bull crap In a room full of dumb blondes, EvE is the smart red head on the other side of the room.-á Lots of men like dumb blondes, and not everyone will like the smart red head, but she doesn;t need to change to be a dumb blonde.-á She is perfect how she is.-á Thats EvE vs other mmo's.-á You either like the red head, or you don't.
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade 856	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:52:00 - [33] - Quote i'm on a roll... As i'm feeling generous, to the op: send me a mail in game with yoru main. And i'll give you prize. Thanks In a room full of dumb blondes, EvE is the smart red head on the other side of the room.-á Lots of men like dumb blondes, and not everyone will like the smart red head, but she doesn;t need to change to be a dumb blonde.-á She is perfect how she is.-á Thats EvE vs other mmo's.-á You either like the red head, or you don't.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 20448	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:52:00 - [34] - Quote Charax Bouclier wrote: I look at it as more about steering new players to PvP. The common complaint I see with the tutorials, which I agree with, is that it is very focused on PvE and it seems natural that new players pursue this activity initially. This is a PvP game and it's unfortunate that this component is neglected during the tutorials. I can't say that I disagree, CCP know that there are problems with the current NPE, IIRC they have plans to fix it. Quote: Whether it's "holographic training" or some other mechanism to get new players into PvP quickly without a large perceived barrier, I think the more new player retention you might see. Perceived barrier is the right word, part of the problem is some of the older players in the NPC corps who constantly push the "Lowsec is evil, PvP is evil, people who shoot at other people are insert psycho-babble term of choicepaths. Other parts of the problem is that unlike other games, loss is actually meaningful here, the current realworld meta of rewarding failure (you come last in something, and get a prize regardless), and that people just plain don't like losing. Quote: Just a new players look at things. I'm fine nutting up old school. You'll do well here, I've answered a couple of your posts in NCQA and you have a habit of asking good questions, and taking on board the answers. You're the kind of newbie we like. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Paranoid Loyd 1605	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:58:00 - [35] - Quote Otuk Andven wrote: Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance Not really an apples to apples comparison but, I recently killed a 90 mil isk T2 Thorax with my Meta 3 fit 15 mil isk Thorax. More isk =/= win More knowledge / better prepared= win "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 4326	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:07:00 - [36] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Otuk Andven wrote: Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance Not really an apples to apples comparison but, I recently killed a 90 mil isk T2 Thorax with my Meta 3 fit 15 mil isk Thorax. More isk =/= win More knowledge / better prepared= win Courtesy of my corpmate Omar , about the best example of this i can think of . =][=
Charax Bouclier Emerald Drama Theatrics 18	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:09:00 - [37] - Quote Quote: You'll do well here, from what I've seen of your posting in NCQA, you have a habit of asking good questions, and taking on board the answers. You're the kind of newbie we like. Thanks Jonah. I knew a week into my trial that I'd be a long-term player (committed to a six month subscription) as this type of game really appeals to me. I really appreciate how helpful you guys have been. Hope you find the new guy perspective helpful, and I don't mind getting swatted down if I completely miss the boat on something (like, perhaps in this thread).
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 20452	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:16:00 - [38] - Quote Charax Bouclier wrote: Quote: You'll do well here, from what I've seen of your posting in NCQA, you have a habit of asking good questions, and taking on board the answers. You're the kind of newbie we like. Thanks Jonah. I knew a week into my trial that I'd be a long-term player (committed to a six month subscription) as this type of game really appeals to me. I really appreciate how helpful you guys have been. Hope you find the new guy perspective helpful, and I don't mind getting swatted down if I completely miss the boat on something (like, perhaps in this thread). You're welcome, good newbies deserve to be nurtured, the rest can go back to playing something else. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 12818	Posted - 2014.08.27 20:46:00 - [39] - Quote My ship costs less than your ammo. My mods are all looted off rats. I don't think I have any ammo loaded. Today I tackled a dreadnought for my fleet. The newbee rifter pilot, a true terror of the skies. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Slicr 26	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:31:00 - [40] - Quote I agree that the costs of pvp can hinder quick access to this type of play. I think this is good because I feel, we want players (especially the newer ones) to get more experience with the game in other ways so that they do not "freak out" when they find out what happens in pvp. RageQuit being the worst one. With the high costs, I think it leads a player (especially a new one) to do one/some/all of the following: 1. Go beg in Jita and/or Amarr for isk. Some learn that this is a good way to get isk but learn no gaming experience for pvp. Most, however, learn not to go this route as most players ... well it is pretty obvious. 2. Do the tutorials to get items, isk, and learn the basics of the game. 3. Give up - sure do not like to see this. 4. Get ganked and want payback so they try harder to gain. I feel if it was easy to get into pvp then pvp would not hold that thrill that leads a lot of us to get better, be badder, etc. Besides, when you want to be a badass you do a lot of research, ask questions, get more experience -- tend to enjoy the game more or get an ulcer. I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.

Jur Tissant Unreal Darkness 190	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:41:00 - [41] - Quote You can fit a T1 Rifter with T1 meta modules for around 1mil. I've done it a few times myself. You can probably make 5mil/hr in a Venture mining in high-sec. That's at least 4 Rifters per hour you're producing by mining, many more if you invest in a barge. Or you could double your PVP as your income stream with FW but that obviously has its downsides.
Syn Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 5	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:50:00 - [42] - Quote Join a blob corp that pays rent in nullsec and get the rewards with no risk. And when that gets boring go back to hi-sec and just keep using cheap t1 destroyers to blob kill anyone and call it content.
Torneach Structor Showup Fleet 36	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:59:00 - [43] - Quote Syn Shi wrote: Join a blob corp that pays rent in nullsec and get the rewards with no risk. And when that gets boring go back to hi-sec and just keep using cheap t1 destroyers to blob kill anyone and call it content. Looks like someone took a bath in Essence of Cynicism.
Adunh Slavy 1587	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:59:00 - [44] - Quote Remove the skill point loss and close cost non-sense. The cost of ships and mods is fine. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
Alternative Splicing Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 81	Posted - 2014.08.27 21:59:00 - [45] - Quote Pj Harvey wrote: Things used to be a LOT cheaper in eve, but CCP have been artificially raising the the cost of things by messing with drop rates and build costs of ships. 4 years ago a frig was 120,000, a cruiser was between 2.5 and 3.5 mil and the tier one battleships were 55/60 mil. CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon. What was the ISK value of a PLEX 4 years ago? Have you actually run any math to show that PLEX buys you less total spaceship than it did 4 years ago? Your conspiracy theory wouldn't be as loopy if PLEX prices didn't rise along with everything else, creating a situation where you need to buy more to get the same amount of spaceships. Potential ISK/hr rates have also gone up if you do the homework to optimize whatever it is you are doing. The real question remains, do you get as much spaceship per hour as you did 4 years ago? Conservatively, or worst case, you should be getting about 6 T2 fit frigates per hour, or 2 T2 fit cruisers, doing either L4s in hisec or null anoms with one character without excessive optimization.
Cancel Align NOW Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 77	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:07:00 - [46] - Quote OP. Eve PVP is easy to experience and affordable for any new pilot who chooses to give it a go. When a pilot does the tutorials they are given 4 frigates. If the pilot collects all the mission wreck loot from the tutorial missions, they will have enough modules to make a basic t1 pvp frigate: guns, warp disrupt, web, damage amplifiers. If the new pilot insures all 4 frigates and loses all 4 in low sec pvp they will have enough isk to buy 2 more. As many have stated in this thread, the tutorial does not tell the new pilot that they have the tools to immediately shoot at others and NPC beginner corps are full of PVE orientated veterans who spout large amounts of misinformation. The holographic pvp mission idea that the cute newbie in this thread raised has some merit. I reckon more simply one of the tutorial missions should be: head to any low sec system return with a lossmail to complete mission. Return with a killmail to recieve a bonus. Would tie in nicely with how to use map tutorial.
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 713	Posted - 2014.08.27 22:47:00 - [47] - Quote Cost of PvP is not an issue. It never was. The only time new players complain about loss is when they thought they were running PvE content and they were destroyed in PvP. This is because they couldn't afford to lose their money maker and had no plans to. After a month pretty much every player in EVE can afford to PvP at a basic level. The question they ask most often is why? You don't learn anything from loss. All you need to do is look at the mail and it's a no brainer why they lost. 99% of all killmails in EVE have scroll requirements to see all the people shooting at you. The remaining 1% have a falcon on the mail. We all know why we lose. Even if new people do engage in PvP, they only do it a few times because it's as much a grind as the level 1 mission they were doing on day 1. Jump through the gate, go boom. How to win? Blob up.
Vyl Vit 698	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:01:00 - [48] - Quote Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.) PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be. Anyone with any sense has already left town.
Netan MalDoran xXTheWarhammerXx 85	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:16:00 - [49] - Quote Otuk Andven wrote: an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die. WTF? That's what I pay for a full T2/Meta 4 PvP setup, no noob has the skills for T2 stuff and certainly will be smart enough to not buy expensive stuff, if it is all T1/Low Meta, then you're looking at only about 2mil/Ship which you can make in 15 minutes mining in a procurer gathering Veldspar. "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Netan MalDoran xXTheWarhammerXx 85	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:19:00 - [50] - Quote Ocih wrote: Cost of PvP is not an issue. It never was. The only time new players complain about loss is when they thought they were running PvE content and they were destroyed in PvP. This is because they couldn't afford to lose their money maker and had no plans to. After a month pretty much every player in EVE can afford to PvP at a basic level. The question they ask most often is why? You don't learn anything from loss. All you need to do is look at the mail and it's a no brainer why they lost. 99% of all killmails in EVE have scroll requirements to see all the people shooting at you. The remaining 1% have a falcon on the mail. We all know why we lose. Even if new people do engage in PvP, they only do it a few times because it's as much a grind as the level 1 mission they were doing on day 1. Jump through the gate, go boom. How to win? Blob up. -------------------/\ Sooooo not true, I have won some fights and lost many fights where it was 1v1, 1v2, and occasionally 1v3. Yes you can lose a lot, but you have to know what the hell you're doing to have a chance at winning. "Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Grim Hood Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 134	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:27:00 - [51] - Quote Torneach Structor wrote: Otuk Andven wrote: an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M? Like, seriously. Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate. Um, I am a month old and my frigs cost between 6-10 million each. Proof and Proof Jonah Gravenstein wrote: One word : Derptron Under 2.5M isk, lethal in force. Yeah great. Notice the "All Level V"? You need perfect fitting skills and it still does crappy dps. Look, new players want to kick ass too. Flying around in a s#!t fit frigate, getting annihilated constantly, is not fun. People like to win. If you want to be successful you have to spend ISK. You grind a crap load of missions. Buy a ship. Go to lowsec and die in a heartbeat. Now you have to grind more missions to get blown up again. It can be very discouraging. PVP as a new player is quite difficult without donations from other players or buying PLEX, and not many new players are willing to dump another $20 in to a game they may not even want to play in a week. Grim Progression - Watch me get kersploded!
Nexus Day Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau 1042	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:28:00 - [52] - Quote Netan MalDoran wrote: Ocih wrote: Cost of PvP is not an issue. It never was. The only time new players complain about loss is when they thought they were running PvE content and they were destroyed in PvP. This is because they couldn't afford to lose their money maker and had no plans to. After a month pretty much every player in EVE can afford to PvP at a basic level. The question they ask most often is why? You don't learn anything from loss. All you need to do is look at the mail and it's a no brainer why they lost. 99% of all killmails in EVE have scroll requirements to see all the people shooting at you. The remaining 1% have a falcon on the mail. We all know why we lose. Even if new people do engage in PvP, they only do it a few times because it's as much a grind as the level 1 mission they were doing on day 1. Jump through the gate, go boom. How to win? Blob up. -------------------/\ Sooooo not true, I have won some fights and lost many fights where it was 1v1, 1v2, and occasionally 1v3. Yes you can lose a lot, but you have to know what the hell you're doing to have a chance at winning. Soooo not true. You don't have to know what you are doing to win at PvP. All you need to do is play for longer and skill and fit better. I've taken on 6 people and walked away because they couldn't come close to breaking my tank with their T1 fits. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
Nexus Day Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau 1042	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:30:00 - [53] - Quote I don't know if anyone has mentioned RvB, but they used to keep a stockpile of ships for new members to learn PvP with. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
Hasikan Miallok Republic University Minmatar Republic 1139	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:42:00 - [54] - Quote Otuk Andven wrote: One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players. Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die. Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s. The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would. And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning? Just checked my buy orders. Just for Gallente in the past week I picked up 30 or 40 Navitas @ 85,000 ISK each (less than 4 mill for 40 frigates) and about the same number of Atrons @ 125,000 and tristans @ 155,000. I actually end up with too many T1 frigates a lot of the time. Just last week I donated 300 Ventures to the Angel Project because they were not worth selling.
Khergit Deserters Crom's Angels 3505	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:57:00 - [55] - Quote Cost of PVP gives you something to work for. Gives you motivation to squint yer eyes and try out all kinds of schemes to make isk, work the angles, make yourself smarter and happier. "Were [sic] not your monkey and so what?"-á -The Sex Pistols (2006)
Utsukushi Shi Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws. 45	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:13:00 - [56] - Quote I fly a Kestral with t2 rockets/BCU/DC and the mids cheap meta. I have just shy of 1000 kills atm, almost all with said Kestral. To be fair most are small gang kills but there are some solo ones in there. The ship fitted is about 4mill. The ghetto version (all t1) is probably 2mill. Any ship I lose on a corp roam is reimbursed. I made about 100k lp just yesterday dplexing in between fights in a couple hours. Also looted maybe 20mil or so in mods and drones. Tell these supposed newbs to come talk to me and I'll get them pvping :) Pyre Falcon is recruiting - apply today! Backstage Recruitment thread EVEO Forum Recruitment thread
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1591	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:25:00 - [57] - Quote Vyl Vit wrote: Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.) PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be. A large ammoun t of these are alts running misisosn to make isk for PVP. THese are nto PVErs. No one call those peopel PVErs. They are PVPers doign PVE to pay their PVP. They are playign the game as was intended. No one is agaisnt people doign PVE, people are against people just pretendign pvp doe snto exist "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!"
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 24127	Posted - 2014.08.28 00:58:00 - [58] - Quote Vyl Vit wrote: Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.) Funnily enough, PvP is by far the most enjoyed activity in the game GÇö something like -+ of the players like PvP. Quote: PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be. Actually, PvP is an ISK faucet. Always has been, and there's no reason why that will ever change. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6392	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:07:00 - [59] - Quote Tippia wrote: Vyl Vit wrote: Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.) Funnily enough, PvP is by far the most enjoyed activity in the game GÇö something like -+ of the players like PvP. Quote: PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be. Actually, PvP is an ISK faucet. Always has been, and there's no reason why that will ever change. My ... two pvp characters are by far outnumbered by my nullsec industry characters that just endlessly make fuelblocks, manage my pos or both No wait, hmm let's count... say three pvp characters against like 9 or so of my various miner/industry alts. At least unlike before, now my industry alts are actually in the alliance, instead of, you know, "end game NPC corp alt industry alts" ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears. Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
GreenSeed 1153	Posted - 2014.08.28 01:13:00 - [60] - Quote pvp is cheap in terms of effort for new people, but the logistics of pvp can get cumbersome. i can sell the stuff i make, buy new materials, ship it back to the manufacturing systems and use any isk left to randomly buy a bunch of hulls. then ship them to my pvp main, where i just log in, pick a hull i feel like flying and fit it. i have well over 20b worth of assorted fittings, way more than what i can use/lose. should i lose something, i take the pod express, pick another hull and undock again. at this point i can't fly (lose) enough to break my bank, sometimes i end up with so much **** i end up reselling it at a loss just to satisfy my OCD... no one likes uneven stacks of t2 modules, we all know that. the point is, a newbie loses a ship, takes the express home and has to fly to a hub, re buy stuff, only to fly another 10 minutes just so he can get blapped on a lowsec entry gate... not fun. i think ships are easy enough to train into, and easy enough to afford. the problem is having them readily available for use. silly things like being unable to place a fitted ship on a cargo hold, is really unnecessary... why have that limitation when you can easily avoid it by making a courier contract with an alt. -.-' also, frigates are too big to move on T1 haulers, even repackaged. and don't get me started on medical clones/Jump clones ...



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