an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?

Not that I much about L4 missions as I haven't done them. But I know there are people who gets over 100mil/hr from them. So maybe it's time that refine your methods as 15mil/hr is extremely low.

Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M?

Like, seriously.

Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.

Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance

One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?

3. I neither mission nor mine to fund my pvp activities. There's this game mechanic, it's called Planetary Interaction or PI for short. You should research it. Sure it'll take ~30 days of training away from learning those ship skills you seem to lack, but then you no longer need to "grind" isk.

TL;DR You're doing it wrong, research is your friend.

[stuff

Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M?

Like, seriously.

Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.

Only place I've found PI to be worth it is null sec.

I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go.

Not that I much about L4 missions as I haven't done them. But I know there are people who gets over 100mil/hr from them. So maybe it's time that refine your methods as 15mil/hr is extremely low.

Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M?

Like, seriously.

Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.

I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go.

Or do what we do,

shoot them in the face.

Then tell them why we shot them in the face [because eve].

Then (assuming they haven't acuseed us of having psychological disorders and/or wished death upon us and/or our loved ones) teach them how to shoot others in the face.

I'll throw out my silly idea. New accounts should be eligible for a holographic training mission where pilots are given stock equiped ships to fight against other noobs to really get the flavour of PvP combat with some objectives. If the idea is to get new players to taste PvP and get them hooked, it would be nice for it to be very accessible on the get go.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs

CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon.

Again, it's a question of accessibility. For new players, you make it super easy to do mining/missions but have them jump hurdles to get into PvP, whether it is the simple cost, the more complex learnings of properly fitting ships and tactics, just getting their butts to a proper place to engage in this activity, and then getting their faces mashed in until they eventually figure it out.

Sure, vets can say to nut up, but I get the feeling that most of you would agree that finding a good system to get new players fully engaged in PvP right away would be a good thing for this game.

Maybe it's too theme park of a concept but maybe it needs to be extended just a little bit for new players to get them more engaged with PvP right away.

You aren't supposed to eat the tinfoil.

You can always do that on the test server.

You should never be able to do that on Tranquility and here is why:

Combat with ships you can't lose is like Poker without money. It's not really the same and it makes it extremely pointless in my eyes.

It's like you focus on a single engagement and completely forget about the big war around you which forms the rest and the actually important and interesting part of the game.

It's also a bit like WOW duel arena stuff, actually like the crap meaningless PvP in every other game out there.

EVE is not about casual fair 1v1 or team eSports BS you find everywhere else. This is about WAR where you take every chance to sneak up on your enemy with superior force and club him over the head from behind! People who don't get that are in general really bad at EVE. There are a lot of this people in EVE, people who say things like "sportsmanship" or "fair fight". I think they are in the wrong game. I don't say they should go, I just say they should shut up, accept their role as prey and stop to try to destroy this unique and brilliant game with their stupid ideas.

I may have digressed a bit, but that's what you get for mentioning "holographic training"... sorry

Things used to be a LOT cheaper in eve, but CCP have been artificially raising the the cost of things by messing with drop rates and build costs of ships. 4 years ago a frig was 120,000, a cruiser was between 2.5 and 3.5 mil and the tier one battleships were 55/60 mil.

CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon.

I'll admit I wasn't really building up my skills on the right stuff then but even now I can only make 30m an hour doing nullsec anomalies. As far as I can tell those 100m/hr are the faction ships speed running the missions and choosing good pay-outs.



https://zkillboard.com/kill/33386391/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/33285953/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/32874574/

Fine the Kestrals were actually about 6m but my point still stands.

Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance

I look at it as more about steering new players to PvP. The common complaint I see with the tutorials, which I agree with, is that it is very focused on PvE and it seems natural that new players pursue this activity initially. This is a PvP game and it's unfortunate that this component is neglected during the tutorials.

Whether it's "holographic training" or some other mechanism to get new players into PvP quickly without a large perceived barrier, I think the more new player retention you might see.

Just a new players look at things. I'm fine nutting up old school.

Sure you can make a frigate for about 1m but is it going to be any good solo? no chance

Not really an apples to apples comparison but, I recently killed a 90 mil isk T2 Thorax with my Meta 3 fit 15 mil isk Thorax.

More isk =/= win
More knowledge / better prepared= win

You'll do well here, from what I've seen of your posting in NCQA, you have a habit of asking good questions, and taking on board the answers. You're the kind of newbie we like.

Thanks Jonah.

I knew a week into my trial that I'd be a long-term player (committed to a six month subscription) as this type of game really appeals to me. I really appreciate how helpful you guys have been. Hope you find the new guy perspective helpful, and I don't mind getting swatted down if I completely miss the boat on something (like, perhaps in this thread).

Join a blob corp that pays rent in nullsec and get the rewards with no risk. And when that gets boring go back to hi-sec and just keep using cheap t1 destroyers to blob kill anyone and call it content.

Things used to be a LOT cheaper in eve, but CCP have been artificially raising the the cost of things by messing with drop rates and build costs of ships. 4 years ago a frig was 120,000, a cruiser was between 2.5 and 3.5 mil and the tier one battleships were 55/60 mil.

CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon.

an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Cost of PvP is not an issue. It never was. The only time new players complain about loss is when they thought they were running PvE content and they were destroyed in PvP. This is because they couldn't afford to lose their money maker and had no plans to.

After a month pretty much every player in EVE can afford to PvP at a basic level. The question they ask most often is why? You don't learn anything from loss. All you need to do is look at the mail and it's a no brainer why they lost. 99% of all killmails in EVE have scroll requirements to see all the people shooting at you. The remaining 1% have a falcon on the mail. We all know why we lose.

Even if new people do engage in PvP, they only do it a few times because it's as much a grind as the level 1 mission they were doing on day 1. Jump through the gate, go boom. How to win? Blob up.

Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M?

Like, seriously.

Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.

One word : Derptron

Under 2.5M isk, lethal in force.

-------------------/\

Sooooo not true, I have won some fights and lost many fights where it was 1v1, 1v2, and occasionally 1v3. Yes you can lose a lot, but you have to know what the hell you're doing to have a chance at winning.

One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?

Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.)

PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be.

Half? Try three-quarters of the player base doing PVE, mining, manufacturing and trading? (When are PvP-ers going to realize they aren't close to half the gaming population in the world? Never? Probably.)

PvP is an ISK sink. Always has been. Always will be.

Funnily enough, PvP is by far the most enjoyed activity in the game GÇö something like -+ of the players like PvP.

Actually, PvP is an ISK faucet. Always has been, and there's no reason why that will ever change.

Where in the world are you getting a T1 frigate plus fittings for 10M?

Like, seriously.

Cause where I am (Amarr) an average frigate hull is around 300k. No way in hell is anybody putting 9.7m in fittings on a T1 frigate.

Yeah great. Notice the "All Level V"? You need perfect fitting skills and it still does crappy dps.

You can always do that on the test server.

You should never be able to do that on Tranquility and here is why:

Combat with ships you can't lose is like Poker without money. It's not really the same and it makes it extremely pointless in my eyes.

It's like you focus on a single engagement and completely forget about the big war around you which forms the rest and the actually important and interesting part of the game.

It's also a bit like WOW duel arena stuff, actually like the crap meaningless PvP in every other game out there.

EVE is not about casual fair 1v1 or team eSports BS you find everywhere else. This is about WAR where you take every chance to sneak up on your enemy with superior force and club him over the head from behind! People who don't get that are in general really bad at EVE. There are a lot of this people in EVE, people who say things like "sportsmanship" or "fair fight". I think they are in the wrong game. I don't say they should go, I just say they should shut up, accept their role as prey and stop to try to destroy this unique and brilliant game with their stupid ideas.

I may have digressed a bit, but that's what you get for mentioning "holographic training"... sorry

Yeah great. Notice the "All Level V"? You need perfect fitting skills and it still does crappy dps.

[quote=Mizhir]but is it going to be any good solo? no chance

At least if learning implant were removed, PvP would be more affordable and there would be no difference in learning speed between PvPers and PvEers.

One of the problems new players have (if not using PLEX to generate isk), it takes quite sometime just to be able to fit +3 implants. As soon as they're fitted they can't afford to get podded, so they have to play safe.

Jump clones need to be far easy to get hold of earlier, that doesn't mean leaving an NPC corp to get one through another player's solution. They need to be easily available for all pilots without the need to leave their corp.

Also replacement clone cost could do with being cheaper towards the top end of the scale.



If it was me, I'd also do away with learning implants and just add the points to the other skill base points, the skill tree is too long anyway (time wise). Don't see why we need 10 implants in our head, when 5 combat/mining ones is more than enough.

At least if learning implant were removed, PvP would be more affordable and there would be no difference in learning speed between PvPers and PvEers.

My god what kind of **** fits do you guys fly and against what kind of **** opponents you use them to suggest pvp is viable with a 2 mils frig

It looks like you missed the two key words here: GÇ£new playerGÇ¥.

A fit is only ever as good as your ability to put it to use. If it costs more than you can afford, you can't put it to use and it is therefore **** no matter what the numbers say. The 2M ISK setup beats it 9 times out of 10 because the expensive shitfit simply does not show up. And when it does show up, the 2M ISK wins anyway because that pilot now has 10+ù more experience.

So the **** fit and the **** opponent is one and the same: the 10M GÇ£newbieGÇ¥ frigate.

Be serious, those kind of ships (aka the all mighty derp tron of doom) are only viable in huge numbers in attrition wars, which is just a minimal part of pvp


Try going with them solo or in a small gang and be facesmashed 1 v many by the first serious guy you meet

A new player with a **** fit is cannon fodder, a new player in a decent fit might have a chance given the right engagement. So if the new player can't afford the decent fit, IT IS a problem, because he'll just remain cannon fodder, and most likely get discouraged and call it quits with pvp untill **** knows when

I started solo PvP ing at 1.5 mil SP, my incursus fits costed me around 10 mills

Nah, you missed the point. A new player with a **** fit is cannon fodder, a new player in a decent fit might have a chance given the right engagement. So if the new player can't afford the decent fit, IT IS a problem, because he'll just remain cannon fodder, and most likely get discouraged and call it quits with pvp untill **** knows when

I started solo PvP ing at 1.5 mil SP, my incursus fits costed me around 10 mills (also, running meta 4 make your fits pricier than t2) and i got some nice kills with it. With a -derptron- i might have just quitted tbh

It's far more likely that the 10M guy will never learn to fit his ship properly and will never actually get into PvP because he's so focused imaginary and ultimately irrelevant GÇ£must havesGÇ¥ (such as the higher-tiered equipment that ratchets up the cost). It's just ye olde GÇ£don't do X until you have YGÇ¥ in monetary form, and it is as bad an idea here as it is everywhere else.

wasted the fist year playing exactly like this

Good thing you rectified that.

Wow. A ship that works in some circumstances, but doesn't in others. Amazing. Hard to believe, even.

Close but not quite.
A new player without the experience of what his ship is capable of is cannon fodder. He has no ability to judge what the right engagement is. Any (non-stupid) fit is decent given the right circumstances, and it's the composition rather than the cost that determines the stupidity of the fit. The trick lies in learning what those circumstances are.

A new player in a 10M ship is far more cannon fodder than one in a 2M ship for the simple reason that the former will lack the experience of the latter (in fact, he might be dangerously overconfident that his 10M will carry the day, when it will actually do nothing of the kind), and the gap will only increase the longer it takes for the 10M guy to stop wasting money.

It's far more likely that the 10M guy will never learn to fit his ship properly and will never actually get into PvP because he's so focused imaginary and ultimately irrelevant GÇ£must havesGÇ¥ (such as the higher-tiered equipment that ratchets up the cost). It's just ye olde GÇ£don't do X until you have YGÇ¥ in monetary form, and it is as bad an idea here as it is everywhere else.

That's needlessly late and laughably overpriced.

One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?

I don't agree.

A new player in a derp fit (cost wise) might actually learn absolutely nothing, or vastly underestimate the potential performance of the hull.

just look at how many people around underestimate the atron, pretty much nobody considers them a threatening frig exactly because of derptron.

A new player in a derptron will engage target x and lose, thus concluding that

To sum it up, OP has a point. ISK is a problem for people new to pvp

The title says nothing about solo PvP

Why on earth would anyone do that if they had a choice?

This is what happens when you think isk wins fights.

in its current configuration, it does not work. So you come back to it in a different one, with upgraded skills or different modules. You experiment. You know that it works against other things, so you examine why it didn't against this one. You do all of this because you have that much more experience than if you only flew once you had satisfied some unreasonably high standard.

The title says nothing about solo PvP

Why on earth would anyone do that if they had a choice?

Here is the part I always try to point out to people. When "the bad guys" get a convert, that person is HAPPY.

Because that's how A LOT of new players approach pvp, out of curiosity, or because they can't find a decent corp accepting them, or simply because (like me) they enjoy the challenge of flying solo, which is a completely different experience than fleet action

I really like how these kind of posts teaching how to learn to pvp and what is good to fly in pvp and with whom come from characters with no pvp experience, or a few sparse kills over years in Jita and bubbly gatecamps.

Have the decency of posting with your main, or if that is your main, you should stick to giving advice to the parts of EVE you know.

He comes back. Then he comes back again. And again. And again. Then he has a grasp of the fight, and realizes even with the correct approach he could not have won the fight without better modules, because there's no way he could have killed the target with his dps being half of what it could be, and his tank being made of wet paper.

The problem still stands.

Because that's how A LOT of new players approach pvp

The problem is still imaginary. PvP costs as much as you want, for new players as well as old, and wilfully multiplying that cost for no good reason and with no real benefit is far more derp:y than the fit that bears the name.
.

I really like how these kind of posts teaching how to learn to pvp and what is good to fly in pvp and with whom come from characters with no pvp experience, or a few sparse kills over years in Jita and bubbly gatecamps.

Have the decency of posting with your main, or if that is your main, you should stick to giving advice to the parts of EVE you know.

Ah now we're to the point where older players shouldnt fly t2 fit frigs either, because apparently actually having a chance at competing isn't a good reason.

Ah now we're to the point where older players shouldnt fly t2 fit frigs either, because apparently actually having a chance at competing isn't a good reason.

Good to know!!

It's likely that I'm simply inexperienced (terrible) at fitting, but I've got to agree at least to an extent that cost is a huge barrier to PVP. It's only now that I'm pretty solvent ISK-wise (after lots of missioning, mining, and finally getting into PI) that I've even felt comfortable considering it. That might have been an erroneous perception on my part; I'll admit that, but if that's a wide-spread perception, maybe there's something to do to help kill that perception that so many seem to have. More people feeling comfortable jumping into PVP with both feet is a good thing, I'd think.

Along those lines: what would you all recommend as sufficiently cheap noob-friendly PVP ship fits, then? I'm just starting on the PVP road, and I'll admit, the most fun I've had in EVE so far was two nights ago when some corpmates and I piled into some cheap frigates (atrons) and went diving into null looking for trouble. I died twice, and it was glorious. But everyone is talking about 10M or more in ISK as being an outrageous amount for a PVP fitting, and my fit was actually closer to 16! (This was a fit that the FC requested we all do, so I assumed it was a good one.) Looking at the fit, I'm having a hard time understanding what I could have done without (or done more cheaply?) Any suggestions as to how to fit PVP ships for low cost that are still effective, both for solo and for fleets?

Things used to be a LOT cheaper in eve, but CCP have been artificially raising the the cost of things by messing with drop rates and build costs of ships. 4 years ago a frig was 120,000, a cruiser was between 2.5 and 3.5 mil and the tier one battleships were 55/60 mil.

CCP needs to sell PLEX, so they keep raising prices to milk their players for the next failed project they'll half finish then abandon.

One other thing: EVE's skill system means that even if two opponents are using the exact same fit -- T1 frigate, meta mods, etc. -- the more skilled player will still almost always win because of the stat advantages conferred by skills and implants (and off-grid boosters, leader ship bonuses, etc.).

What I'm saying is that combat in Eve is a huge hill for a noob to climb, and CCP has done a lousy job of making this hill fun for a noob to get over, and that includes a lot of PVE combat. Incursions are almost impenetrable by noobs; FW requires mastering a lot of meta-game skills (how to successfully navigate in losec being a vital skill); WH space offers practically nothing to noobs.

So what does that leave noobs? Low-level mission-running and mining and exploration. None of which offer enough ISK/hr to make up PVP ship-losses very quickly.

I think if I could go back in time and change one thing about Eve, I'd change the real-time skill training system. At least an xp-based skill system would reward all the grinding you have to do early on and get you combat-capable in a week instead of a couple of months.

I enjoy rolling new chars and building them up into good, functional toons for various tasks, but combat toons take a long time to get "functional" for PVP. That's just a fact. Nobody wins fights in a T1 frigate with meta fittings because the guy you're facing has -- at least -- T2 fittings or has a pimped-out faction frigate with officer deadspace mods and whatnot. The reason is that your chances of coming up against a fellow noob in a fight ar minuscule -- you're far more likely to come up against a vet with millions of skillpoints.

So wrong it's painful, here's a few scenarios.

- Lets say there's a player in an Enyo, harpy or the likes with short range weapons and that player has 150 mil SP and everything related to that AF maxed out. Now we have a month old character in a T1 frig like a Condor, Atron or even the Executioner and it's set up for kiting. Unless that AF gets backup or can deaggress and dock/jump he will lose to the T1 frig IF that pilot knows wtf he's doing.

- Dual prop scram fit Slasher, can be flown on low SP just fine, WILL kill a MWD cruiser (any kind) when caught unless it has neuts, double webs or is drone/missile based. If you catch a Cynabal for instance and he, for whatever reason, isn't packing neuts or AB you'll sped tank his drones enough to kill them and then kill the ship. Cynabal is ofcourse a bit silly without neut but simply stating that it's not about the ship cost, it's about having the right tactics for the scenario at hand. Said Slasher is also really good at dealing with kiting frigs which you see quite often.

- Low SP scram kiting T1 frig set up to work at 7km catches (or is caught by) another frig that has short range weapons and is able to maintain range will have a good chance of winning that fight


Stop whining, stop making excuses.


EVE PVP is rock, paper, scissors. A T1 rock will still kill T2 scissors.

So wrong it's painful, here's a few scenarios.

- Lets say there's a player in an Enyo, harpy or the likes with short range weapons and that player has 150 mil SP and everything related to that AF maxed out. Now we have a month old character in a T1 frig like a Condor, Atron or even the Executioner and it's set up for kiting. Unless that AF gets backup or can deaggress and dock/jump he will lose to the T1 frig IF that pilot knows wtf he's doing.

- Dual prop scram fit Slasher, can be flown on low SP just fine, WILL kill a MWD cruiser (any kind) when caught unless it has neuts, double webs or is drone/missile based. If you catch a Cynabal for instance and he, for whatever reason, isn't packing neuts or AB you'll sped tank his drones enough to kill them and then kill the ship. Cynabal is ofcourse a bit silly without neut but simply stating that it's not about the ship cost, it's about having the right tactics for the scenario at hand. Said Slasher is also really good at dealing with kiting frigs which you see quite often.

- Low SP scram kiting T1 frig set up to work at 7km catches (or is caught by) another frig that has short range weapons and is able to maintain range will have a good chance of winning that fight

EVE PVP is rock, paper, scissors. A T1 rock will still kill T2 scissors.

The game does nothing to prepare a new user for PVP, and unless the user joins a good corp or Eve Uni, there are precious few players willing to expend the time and effort needed to hand-hold a noob into the PVP world.

Working as intended. EVE is a game for self starters and/or resourceful people (who understand that people are a good resource). If a player need the game to teach them how to play the game, they are in the wrong game.

Yes, a T1 frigate can kill a T2 frigate -- sometimes, occasionally, when the other player screws up. But this only works when the player in the T1 frigate has a level of skill and knowledge about ships and fittings that a noob is unlikely to have. And this presumes a straight 1v1 fight, furthermore, which few PVP engagements are. At minimum, you're dealing not just with another ship, but also the other player's logi alt or off-grid booster alt.

The point here is that these theory-crafting T1 fits that can kill a T2/faction/pirate ship don't work during actual play for one simple reason: player skills. Noobs don't have the skills to fly a T1 frigate very well, let alone a faction or pirate ship (even if they had the ISK to buy such a ship). And they don't have the game-knowledge to use the skills they do have to good effect, as a rule. (I'm in the middle of rolling up a new combat toon, and I'm always shocked at how bad the toon's tracking, cap management, navigation, etc. are compared to what I'm used to.) Like I said, it takes about a month to get a combat toon skilled well enough to do frigate PVP decently well and have a chance of surviving.

This is my main beef with the lousy Eve NPE (New Player Experience). It does almost nothing to teach a new player the ins and outs of fitting, faction/meta mods, and the differences between PVP fits and PVE fits. Passive vs active tank, the use of drones, etc. The game does nothing to prepare a new user for PVP, and unless the user joins a good corp or Eve Uni, there are precious few players willing to expend the time and effort needed to hand-hold a noob into the PVP world.

What other game have you ever played in your life that

No NPE will ever get you ready for pvp as there is no AI that can symulate a player.

Also you are combat effective 30 min i to EVE.

EVE is inherently unbalanced against noobs because of the prevalence of long-time players. EVE is a mature game and the ratio of noobs (not newly-rolled alts) to vets is very small. PVP for your first month or two in EVE consists of dying. A lot. And spending the time you're not spending doing PVP grinding for ISK to buy the ships your losing in PVP. You get about 20% PVP fun to 80% ISK grinding.

One other thing: EVE's skill system means that even if two opponents are using the exact same fit -- T1 frigate, meta mods, etc. -- the more skilled player will still almost always win because of the stat advantages conferred by skills and implants (and off-grid boosters, leader ship bonuses, etc.).

I think if I could go back in time and change one thing about Eve, I'd change the real-time skill training system. At least an xp-based skill system would reward all the grinding you have to do early on and get you combat-capable in a week instead of a couple of months.

What other game have you ever played in your life that didn't come with a tutorial level or instructions to tell you how to play it?

What other game have you ever played in your life that didn't come with a tutorial level or instructions to tell you how to play it?

Eve is a *game*, not a second job. I don't think a lot of players understand that. It's supposed to be *entertainment*. It's supposed to be *fun* -- and fun for new players as well as existing ones.

The players who stick around in Eve tend to be self-starters and self-learners, but that still doesn't speak well of CCP that they've neglected such an essential part of the game. (And they do make semi-annual oaths to improve the NPE, so it's clear that they know it sucks too.)

I'm all for making PVP a bigger part of Eve, but in order to do that you need to train new players how to do it. A lot of the risk-averse behavior you see in Eve stems from the fact that players are too scared to lose their pretty ships. (And by no means only new players or hisec players.) Losing should hurt a bit, granted; that's your incentive to learn and get better. But frigates, to a new player, should be as disposable as a tissue -- use it, get it blowed up, throw it out, get another one. Harden them to losing and give them a quick thrill at winning. Don't make losing too painful or winning too rewarding at first. It's got to be fast, easy, and cheap.

Red vs Blue has the right idea, I think, but that thunderdome is too far out of a noob's reach. They do their best to include newer players, but those guys are in it for the PVP themselves; they don't want to babysit noobs as a rule.

One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Sure, if you don't mind being used as a scout, a bait ship or a cannon-fodder tackler in a fleet fight. I don't find that very fun, but whatevs.

Eventually, though, I got into the groove and realized that for a game like FTL, part of the experience should be experimenting with new things, paying attention, and learning how to maximize your chances of survival on your own. ItGÇÖs not dissimilar to systems driven, sandbox games like Minecraft or Terraria in that way: they just dump you into a system and tell you that figuring it out is half the fun. (The other half is feeling superior to people who complain about it not being spoon fed to them.)

I've often thought that the NPE should do two things: have a "Fitting Your Ship 101" class with cutscenes and dialogue and whatnot, just to familiarize noobs with the basics of EVE ships. Powergrid, CPU, rigs, high-medium-low power slots, etc. Your instructor would be some hard-as-nails combat vet who would walk you through fitting out your first frigate in PVP fashion. Then you'd be released in a noob-only PVP arena where you'd mix it up with other noobs. If you got killed, you'd get a "here's why you died" report that listed some fitting/skill suggestions. I.e., "You might want to improve your gunnery and capacitor skills, pilot. You got capped out and didn't have enough range on your guns!"

Then, after you graduated from that level of PVP instruction, you'd have "EVE Fleet Mechanics 101" where you and other noobs would learn how to operate in fleets under an NPC FC against a rival noob fleet (or NPC fleet).

Just doing that would vastly increase the number of PVP-capable (and PVP-aspirant) players.

What the researchers found was that relative to those in other conditions, children who were given instructions on how to make the toy squeak played with it for shorter amounts of time, did fewer unique actions with it, and discovered fewer of the toyGÇÖs other functions.

What other game have you ever played in your life that didn't come with a tutorial level or instructions to tell you how to play it?

Sure, if you don't mind being used as a scout, a bait ship or a cannon-fodder tackler in a fleet fight. I don't find that very fun, but whatevs.

Why do you expect to be a pvp god right out the box?

It took me the better part of 4 years to get to the point I am at now and that is just with one ship hull and I am still learning. You can't buy your way to competence in EVE and starting out as a fleet scout/tackle/adorable newbee is the single best way to learn.

Why do you expect to be a pvp god right out the box?

It took me the better part of 4 years to get to the point I am at now and that is just with one ship hull and I am still learning. You can't buy your way to competence in EVE and starting out as a fleet scout/tackle/adorable newbee is the single best way to learn.

One of the big issues that I feel put players off PVP is the cost. This is especially true for new players.

Its a well known fact that pvp cost money, an average t1 frigate is going to set you back about 10m ISK depending on fittings and rigs, yet for new players going to go into low sec to try pvp that ship is going to die.

Now 10m is a lot, -don't laugh- for new players and I suspect for a lot of people it is a lot. New players can't do incursions and their ISK/hour on missions will be low because of sub-par dps or tank. After 6 months in the game I was still going about 15m an hour in a navy raven doing lv4s.

The result is people spend more time engaged in missioning and mining to fund their pvp activity. Now I had a lot of free time then so I could grind missions for hours to do pvp a lot, (about half a billion worth of it if I remember). However now that I'm in work I doubt I could/would.

And people wonder why half the player base ends up mining/missioning?

The game is promoted and sold as "Giant fleet battles! Grim PVP death-matches! Market shenanigans! Spying, subterfuge, and treachery!".

Yeah, shame on a new player for actually wanting to have fun in a game they paid for. Eesh.

You know when people accuse Eve players of being elitist d-bags? This is what they're talking about. I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but come on, man. New players shouldn't have to wait for weeks and weeks to play the game they were shown in all the youtube clips and promos that CCP runs.

The game is promoted and sold as "Giant fleet battles! Grim PVP death-matches! Market shenanigans! Spying, subterfuge, and treachery!". Well, great: a new player joined the game to get into that stuff. What they get instead is mining and shooting at little red X's. Or trying to explore out of hisec and getting killed in two seconds by someone you never even saw. Or getting into a corp and finding out that you don't get to do any fun stuff; until you reach some arbitrary skill-level, you're the Eve equivalent of a prison punk.

Like I said before: I don't expect CCP to do anything at this point to improve the NPE, for the simple reason that Eve is a fully mature game now and probably won't attract all that many brand-new players. It's more a wish for what might have been than anything else. I do admire groups like RvB and Eve UNI though, because they did what they could to rectify shortcomings in CCP's own game.

For my part, I'm happily ticking the days off the calendar until the the kiddies all go back to school and EVE is no longer a cheap form of "daycare"... that's what WoW is for.

Oh dear God, what horse****. Tell you what, chum: load up a Condor and fit it out like you just said and go take on an Enyo. Then come back and tell me what the Enyo did to you. And I'm assuming that you're a several million skillpoint player, based on your assumptions; why don't you roll up a new toon and try it.

Have you ever actually taken your own advice to see how it works out in the real world? If a noob takes your advice, it's going to lead to flaming death. It's ridiculous.

Yeah, shame on a new player for actually wanting to have fun in a game they paid for. Eesh.

You know when people accuse Eve players of being elitist d-bags? This is what they're talking about. I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but come on, man. New players shouldn't have to wait for weeks and weeks to play the game they were shown in all the youtube clips and promos that CCP runs.

If I am allowed to recommend 1 thing: Drop that raven into a trashcan or sell it, and buy LOADS of T1 frigs of the ISK. Then go into lowsec and explode them all. Pull yourself out of the track you are digging into EVE.

So if someone pays for a game they should have the dev-given right to hit the skill ceiling the moment they touch the controls?

Yeah, shame on a new player for actually wanting to have fun in a game they paid for. Eesh.

Excellent advice, and worth re-stating.

Get noobs so inured to losing ships that they don't even factor it into fights later on.

Why do you expect to be a pvp god right out the box?

It took me the better part of 4 years to get to the point I am at now and that is just with one ship hull and I am still learning. You can't buy your way to competence in EVE and starting out as a fleet scout/tackle/adorable newbee is the single best way to learn.

Not exactly a recipe for attracting a lot of today's utes with the attention span of gnats.

Not exactly a recipe for attracting a lot of today's utes with the attention span of gnats.

Not exactly a recipe for attracting a lot of today's utes with the attention span of gnats.

New players shouldn't have to wait for weeks and weeks to play the game they were shown in all the youtube clips and promos that CCP runs.

I'm thinking of a phrase that starts 'work' and ends with 'ing as intended"

The main thing a new player wanting to get into PvP needs is a realistic expectation that they are going to blow up a lot early on in their pvp experience.

Blowing up however doesn't equate to losing. It equates to learning - as a player.

Both sides of pvp - character skills and player skills - are important. The first gives you flexibility to fit and competently fly a wider range of ships and the second gives you the ability to fight smartly.

There is no loss as a new player blowing up, because every time you blow up, your smarts as a player improve and a lot of smarts can be gained early on.

The cost of those experiences and whether that is too expensive is another thing. There are a lot of good, cheap fits for ships that allow new players to die a lot and not hurt the account balance a lot, but it's difficult in the game early on to concentrate both on pvp and on learning to generate ISK. I used PLEX early on, but don't need to now. For me that worked and made pvp very cheap.

It's not so much the entitlement of gamers that expect... no, demand, everything be handed to them right now without having to strive for the achievement and learn what they're doing, but the flippant arrogance behind that entitlement.

That's the bottom line. You pay to play the game, and access CCP's servers. You don't pay to be good at it.

Boy, you must be a blast at parties.

Repeat after me: this is a GAME. It's meant as ENTERTAINMENT.

Good, some of them are like parasites, they infect a game with their instant gratification bullshit, devs cater to them, the game dies because it's become ridiculously easy and thus boring, they move onto the next game and repeat the process.

Boy, you must be a blast at parties.

Repeat after me: this is a GAME. It's meant as ENTERTAINMENT.

The amount of humorlessness and EVE IS SERIOUS BUSINESS in this thread is just...well, exactly what I've come to expect from a subset of Eve players over the years, actually.

But hey, if you want to treat Eve as a second job that you don't even get paid to do, go right ahead. I'd prefer to have fun with Eve, and for other players to have fun with me, but that's just me.

It's fine as long as you aren't a CCP stockholder. I understand the sentiment though.

Good, some of them are like parasites, they infect a game with their instant gratification bullshit, devs cater to them, the game dies because it's become ridiculously easy and thus boring, they move onto the next game and repeat the process.

And I bet you care a great deal about the profits of CCP's shareholders.

It's fine as long as you aren't a CCP stockholder. I understand the sentiment though.

Boy, you must be a blast at parties.

Repeat after me: this is a GAME. It's meant as ENTERTAINMENT.

The amount of humorlessness and EVE IS SERIOUS BUSINESS in this thread is just...well, exactly what I've come to expect from a subset of Eve players over the years, actually.

But hey, if you want to treat Eve as a second job that you don't even get paid to do, go right ahead. I'd prefer to have fun with Eve, and for other players to have fun with me, but that's just me.

This is that always fake "I care about CCPs wallet" meme lol.

If the stockholders are that concerned, why did they let CCP make EVE instead of WoW? Did they not know EVE (and spaceships and sandbox games in general) is niche and there is only so much money to be hand in a non-mass appeal niche?

Boy, you must be a blast at parties.

Repeat after me: this is a GAME. It's meant as ENTERTAINMENT.

The amount of humorlessness and EVE IS SERIOUS BUSINESS in this thread is just...well, exactly what I've come to expect from a subset of Eve players over the years, actually.

But hey, if you want to treat Eve as a second job that you don't even get paid to do, go right ahead. I'd prefer to have fun with Eve, and for other players to have fun with me, but that's just me.

I would be if I went to parties.

What other game have you ever played in your life that didn't come with a tutorial level or instructions to tell you how to play it? Eve is a *game*, not a second job. I don't think a lot of players understand that. It's supposed to be *entertainment*. It's supposed to be *fun* -- and fun for new players as well as existing ones.

Yep. I've been playing MMo's since the 2D games like The Realm. It's happened in each and every single one of them.

Well If I go back to when I first started playing games then most of them lol. I can honestly put my hand on my heart and say I have never read an instruction manual for a game to learn how to play it.

The are only 2 reason why I have ever opened an instruction manual.

1. Star Wars - Tie Fighter. Great Story that was included with the game.

2. Back in the day to combat people copying games they would have at the back of the manual a code section. Think towards the end Terminator 3 when they girls fathers code book to open the door.

Alien Breed comes to mind.

See my point above lol.

Color me shocked!

Repeat after me: this is a GAME. It's meant as ENTERTAINMENT.

You are so cool the way you totally ignored Remiel's points and basically pointed and laughed at a throwaway statement.

Go you.

Color me shocked!

You use the words game and entertainment in allcaps as a counter to the statement that you don't get to be good on day 1.

This says nothing about games, entertainment, or the post you quoted, but it does say a lot about you.

Pic related

I know. I have a hard time dealing with my own awesomeness most of the time! I thought it summed up the attitudes of many of the people who play EvE but don't get to ride in the FunVee.

I used to party a lot. I was always the first one to get drunk and naked and start singing karaoke at the top of my lungs from the roof of whatever was easiest to climb. You have to know how to let loose on the weekends after a week of cooking for more than 300 people in the space of two hours, five nights a week. I'm 31 now, I still have fun but after a brush with cancer and a veritable gamut of life problems, I've found myself calming down substantially and finding new ways to have fun without exerting myself.

I know. I have a hard time dealing with my own awesomeness most of the time! I thought it summed up the attitudes of many of the people who play EvE but don't get to ride in the FunVee.

Back in the 80's you had to buy the game to get a manual.

\

Ah, the 'standard dodge'. We see it a lot around here.

Say something stupid, the play it off like you didn't say something stupid. It works well in both internet forums and politics.

What's your point, sportsfan?

Display some awesomeness and actually address the points given.

We here at the Damien McCandless Institute of Behavioural Science call it "Salvosing"

I had a guy run over my motorcycle while doing 70 miles an hour. I still enjoy a good party but never did karaoke or ran around drunk and naked.

One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

I'm not here to compare sob stories, all I'm saying is I've lived an active enough life for me. Are you me? No? Then we're going to have different experiences and experience the same ones differently. I really hate it when I explain why I choose a quiet life now and someone tries to "out-victim" me, especially when I'm not trying to paint myself as a victim. It's really ******* immature and it's also a digression. Ramona is right, you're derailing.

If you suck at EVE, it's up to you to get better, it's not up to the devs to change the game to suit your suckiness at the expense of those of us who have adapted to what it is. So go **** yourselves you whiny twirps, and get on our level. I know I'm being an elitist right now, but I don't really care, you've pissed me off and you ******* deserve it. Fail at EVE, or not, it's actually your choice.

I think you missed it.

One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

This is an evergreen in Eve, though: the notion that making Eve more accessible to new players amounts to making it a themepark or "dumbing it down". I generally chalk it up to bittervet syndrome -- that since you had to grind up the hard way, new players should have to as well. That attitude makes no sense to me, but then I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

... SERIOUS BUSINESS players. ..."ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" ..."dumbing it down". ... bittervet syndrome

...I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.

One of them is that it's really easy to get a rise out of the SERIOUS BUSINESS players. As I have just proved.

Another is that there's a large gap between "making the game fun for noobs" on one hand, and "ZOMG EVE IS TURNING INTO WOW" on the other. It's not a binary choice.

This is an evergreen in Eve, though: the notion that making Eve more accessible to new players amounts to making it a themepark or "dumbing it down". I generally chalk it up to bittervet syndrome -- that since you had to grind up the hard way, new players should have to as well. That attitude makes no sense to me, but then I'm a player who gets a kick out of helping noobs out rather than ganking their T1 frigs at stargates.

Dude, you need to release your hate. It doesn't lead to anything positive.

It is refreshing to see that some people understand that a belief that is contradictory to their own can still be valid!

I sometimes think that things were more fun in the 80's and early 90's. Anyone else remember the BBS days? I sorta miss the community connection you could get from that. I made a lot of rl friends from the BBS's, including the one who has been my best friend now for over 20 yrs.

I also remember when you could still return software to the store. I would often go buy a game at Wal Mart, install it, and then return it, claiming it didn't work on my computer.

Ah, those were the days.

Anyway, totally off topic, but wth, I havent had occasion for a "back in my day.." post in forever.