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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
127
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Posted - 2014.09.04 15:43:00 -
[181] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Is this thread still going on? Are the CFC crybabies going to flood the forums with their tears? If the adult babies in the CFC want to cry to someone about the state of industry, I would like to recommend they start with their friendly CSM reps that they elected. I as well as multiple other folks told these clowns that the changes to mining and ore compression would blow up in their faces. They ignored it of course because they knew better. Go read Mord Fiddle's last few blog posts, he named it hubris. How prophetic of Mord. Remember "farms and fields"? Remember Mynnna, the self proclaimed economics expert and noted windbag, when he said the high sec industrialist "won't be missed" and something along the lines of "F them". Now all of these chickens have come home to roost. I compressed over 800 million units of ore last week and I am selling it to the enemies of the CFC as cheaply as possible. It may be time for CFC line members to HTFU and start training some mining skills. Or maybe get the Mittani to write another subcap superiority article on his propaganda site in an attempt to change the game.
send me an in game mail - I am sure we can do business |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
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Posted - 2014.09.04 15:49:00 -
[182] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine.
Oh...
Oh. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 15:57:00 -
[183] - Quote
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
127
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:00:00 -
[184] - Quote
Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine. Oh... Oh.
Some attempts at education were more hostile than others, some more subtle
In the end it has worked it self out
No matter what, in the end, I am only hated by half the blue donut, not by hi sec miners
I haven't even remotely slowed production, matter of fact, it has kind of increased. Teams have lowered overall prices and business is good.
Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh?
I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking
HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:10:00 -
[185] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine. Oh... Oh. Some attempts at education were more hostile than others, some more subtle In the end it has worked it self out No matter what, in the end, I am only hated by half the blue donut, not by hi sec miners I haven't even remotely slowed production, matter of fact, it has kind of increased. Teams have lowered overall prices and business is good. Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh? I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman I always like these "goons have screwed themselves out of the highsec market" posts because they fly in full ignorance of the concept of neutral alts. This isn't really a new concept -- as the largest corporation in the game, and one of the most vilified, any Goonswarm Federation member you can shake an Ishtar at has a neutral alt for conducting business in empire, due to our repeated, sustained wardecs. If we need to do business with basically anyone, we do it via these neutral alts to avoid wardecs and our own reputation. Who's to say we aren't doing what you're doing already?
And, yes, before you ask, I want station compression despite this. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is romantic and all, but it's, frankly, kinda stupid. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3794
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:32:00 -
[186] - Quote
Querns wrote:I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise.
Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless.
(In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:42:00 -
[187] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Querns wrote:I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise. Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless. (In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate) I respect that. Don't worry about it -- I can tell the difference between differing opinions and antagonism. :)
Allowing the orca to compress moves the compression out of the starbase and into the (highsec) belt, where it can be disrupted (by bumping) and suicide ganked. An orca is also a sight more expensive than a small starbase -- you can run a starbase for several months before the orca is the cheaper option, and this doesn't include offlining the starbase to conserve fuel when you aren't using its services. The orca is also significantly more skill-intensive than a starbase -- starbases require Anchoring III and an orca requires several months of training. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:46:00 -
[188] - Quote
Firvain wrote: So im recruiting miners, anyone wants to mine some veldspar in 0.0 belts feel free to mail me!
Good luck finding people willing to pay $10 so they can mine 0.0 for CFC.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3794
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:50:00 -
[189] - Quote
Well, /sitting/ in an orca is now, iirc about 17 days.
That is a point though.
It'd be interesting if you need the ore processing skills at some level to be able to compress it. Though that may be a degree of complexity which is taking it too far.
One thing it would do is /massively/ increase linger time in highsec belts, as there'd be next to no need to offload the ore. An orca would be able to hold the equivalent of 50 million units of Veld in just its ore bay. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
129
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:53:00 -
[190] - Quote
If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed
This way there will be zero thought required
BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke
It is good the way it is, a nice balance between 3 different things
Do i sell ore? Do i refine and sell minerals? (This requires quite a bit of skills, and an implant to be effective) Do i compress and sell compressed? (This requires some effort)
Each one has a boundary to entry except the raw ore, it is a very nice progression and makes a lot of sense |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 16:57:00 -
[191] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Well, /sitting/ in an orca is now, iirc about 17 days. That is a point though. It'd be interesting if you need the ore processing skills at some level to be able to compress it. Though that may be a degree of complexity which is taking it too far. One thing it would do is /massively/ increase linger time in highsec belts, as there'd be next to no need to offload the ore. An orca would be able to hold the equivalent of 50 million units of Veld in just its ore bay. Eh, yeah, true -- I was looking at one of my EFT plans, which was, hilariously enough, for an orca with links and decent drone skills. :V
Don't forget that the Industrial Core has its own skill requirements (about two weeks worth) and consumes Heavy Water during every siege cycle. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Grace Chang
Black Phoenix Legion The Fourth District
39
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:12:00 -
[192] - Quote
So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3794
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:14:00 -
[193] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?
I wouldn't say no-one (but goons) wants to change compression. Items 2 and 3 on the initial list are ones I'm fairly happy with.
Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:15:00 -
[194] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? There were folks in the thread that weren't goons who approved of the idea.
You're mistaking a volume of posts by a minority of people as "nobody." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
129
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:17:00 -
[195] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? I wouldn't say no-one (but goons) wants to change compression. Items 2 and 3 on the initial list are ones I'm fairly happy with.
IF something has to change, those are the 2, although i would rather let it go a bit longer - maybe 8-12 weeks
As long as compression doesn't end up in Orca or Station.... |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:24:00 -
[196] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change?
I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:29:00 -
[197] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed
This way there will be zero thought required
BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke Because then compression still requires a reasonable amount of cooperation (and, unlike pos compression, offers PvP opportunities).
I fully understand wanting the game to be as obtuse and difficult as possible when you've figured out the way through the obtuseness and wish to protect your competitive advantage by keeping that barrier up. But that's not a reasonable argument that this is good game design, which still has not been made. Having people warp a freighter to a POS and back provides no useful content for anyone: it is make-work. The POS never has anything of value in it worth attacking. The freighter is always within a docking ring or pos shields.
What's the value here, besides that other people are less likely to jump through these machoistic hoops? |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:31:00 -
[198] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh?
I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking
HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman
fortunately, thanks to winning B-R, we have not needed to kowtow to the peasants of eve in the hopes they will give us enough dirt scratched out of the ground to replace our losses :v: |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:31:00 -
[199] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it.
You guys should come up with a macro where you can press F1 on the forums and agree with what Querns says. |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:34:00 -
[200] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:If you are going to allow compression in station or in an Orca, why not just have it mined compressed, just shows up in your ore hold as compressed
This way there will be zero thought required
BTW: For the thick and goons, that above was a joke Because then compression still requires a reasonable amount of cooperation (and, unlike pos compression, offers PvP opportunities). I fully understand wanting the game to be as obtuse and difficult as possible when you've figured out the way through the obtuseness and wish to protect your competitive advantage by keeping that barrier up. But that's not a reasonable argument that this is good game design, which still has not been made. Having people warp a freighter to a POS and back provides no useful content for anyone: it is make-work. The POS never has anything of value in it worth attacking. The freighter is always within a docking ring or pos shields. What's the value here, besides that other people are less likely to jump through these machoistic hoops?
Shouldn't all of this been thought of before you guys insisted that CCP change the game to make the high sec peasants work for you? It is a little late to think things through when you are standing there with egg on your face. |
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Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:36:00 -
[201] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:CFC line members to HTFU and start training some mining skills
Again, a ton of Grr Goon and not enough people actually thinking before they type.
Let me recap the issues for people that haven't read the first few pages:
Ore Supply in Null
- Nullsec is already mining a large amount of ore via Industrial Upgrade Ore Anomalies
- The existing ore anomalies are very top heavy- meaning that they have a huge quantity of high end minerals and not a huge quantity of low end minerals (see: zyd/mega prices)
- There isn't "infinite" ore of a specific type, because each belt must be 100% mined out before it respawns
- Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
- There is a severe shortage of mexallon (and some isogen) in nullsec belts; meanwhile, there is a crushingly imbalanced surplus of high end minerals
Filling the Gap
- In order to fill the Mex gap, we currently need to import from high sec
- The nerf to modules means that a significant source of minerals was nerfed across the board
- A considerable portion of high sec miners don't compress their ore, and instead refine it directly in high sec stations. This reduces the pre-Crius supply even further because of the reduced efficiency of High Sec stations
- As soon as ore is refined into minerals, there is no way to get it into a compressed - "easy to move" - format, without taking a gigantic loss.
- A great number of miners in high sec don't read forums, don't do math (as shown by vocal posters in other threads in S&I), and therefore don't compress their ore for additional profit.
- Additionally, there is a barrier to entry for compression in high sec, which some miners assume is too high to enter the compressed market space
Therefore- the compressed market was severely hit post Crius. The mineral supply issue has always been a problem, but was being staunched by being able to import minerals via modules. The current state of supply in nullsec is imbalanced to the point that is going to continue to crash the high end markets- production has considerably slowed in null, reducing the relative demand for all minerals (but especially high ends).
The difference between the CFC comments and the random empire alts in this thread is that we are making a concerted effort to create a local T1 marketplace in nullsec. We are not speaking as individual producers with the argument of "I can import minerals for my own production just fine, HTFU". The intent of Crius is to spread industry to create additional, localized, hubs- something that is not currently possible (logical) with the basic mineral supply mechanics.
People that are crying GRR Goons need to realize that if changes are made to supply in null, that would only be beneficial to you, as you'd have more targets to come roam and kill. Otherwise, we could just keep living off of rental and moon goo income with no way for you to affect it. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:42:00 -
[202] - Quote
My spies tell me that Mittens is so upset at the Goon tears he will be logging in for the first time in a year and leading mining fleets to farm Veldspar. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Strawberries'n Carnage
Elessar Recruitment and Training Division
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:48:00 -
[203] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Strawberries'n Carnage wrote:then that is a huge reason that more people are not doing it, the compressed ores are still referring to the old method which seems very unprofitable. If it is true that the in game information is still referencing the old way to compress ore, then that is a big bug that needs to be fixed quickly. I honestly have not looked recently. http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Reprocessing#CompressionEve University's website is updated. Compression is dead simple: Online your POS. Online your Compression Array. Dump your ore in the compression array. Right click your ore and choose compress. Compression is instant. It requires no blueprints and no skills. 100 units of ore become 1 unit of compressed ore. That makes it very easy to quickly see how much profit you are making from each batch of raw ore. Just slide the decimal point. The worst part is hassling with the POS interface if you have never run one before.
I was fighting with Google searching for anything that was about refining and compressing and current and I must have missed this, definitely a great help. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:54:00 -
[204] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Shouldn't all of this been thought of before you guys insisted that CCP change the game to make the high sec peasants work for you? It is a little late to think things through when you are standing there with egg on your face.
We thought all this through and posted as much when the change was announced, but reserved judgment to see how the market adapted and if highsec was a little brighter than we gave it credit for. Our initial pessimism about the intelligence of the highsec miner has been proven correct, and the market demonstrates that.
The many worthless highsec miners we have squashed over the years can bleat all they want, but the facts are incontestable. Ore compression isn't working as intended and the market shows that. As a result, the loudest screams against our calm, reasoned pointing out of the facts are basically monkeys throwing poop everywhere in an effort to distract from those facts. That you neither saw nor understood those posts is not a problem for us.
What the market is doing can be verified by anyone. Compressed veldspar somewhat exists. But the compressed ore market is badly broken, and the behavior it incentivizes to fix it is unfun solo activity that creates no content for anyone. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
731
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:55:00 -
[205] - Quote
this thread is reminding me though why it's so great to whip the lash at highsec
we gotta do that some more, it's been a little while since we ground our boot in highsec's face and taught them who their masters are |
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
160
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:57:00 -
[206] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:GreasyCarl Semah wrote:CFC line members to HTFU and start training some mining skills Again, a ton of Grr Goon and not enough people actually thinking before they type. Let me recap the issues for people that haven't read the first few pages: Ore Supply in Null
- Nullsec is already mining a large amount of ore via Industrial Upgrade Ore Anomalies
- The existing ore anomalies are very top heavy- meaning that they have a huge quantity of high end minerals and not a huge quantity of low end minerals (see: zyd/mega prices)
- There isn't "infinite" ore of a specific type, because each belt must be 100% mined out before it respawns
- Mining in actual belts in nullsec is much worse isk/hour than mining in empire because of aforementioned mineral prices
- There is a severe shortage of mexallon (and some isogen) in nullsec belts; meanwhile, there is a crushingly imbalanced surplus of high end minerals
Filling the Gap
- In order to fill the Mex gap, we currently need to import from high sec
- The nerf to modules means that a significant source of minerals was nerfed across the board
- A considerable portion of high sec miners don't compress their ore, and instead refine it directly in high sec stations. This reduces the pre-Crius supply even further because of the reduced efficiency of High Sec stations
- As soon as ore is refined into minerals, there is no way to get it into a compressed - "easy to move" - format, without taking a gigantic loss.
- A great number of miners in high sec don't read forums, don't do math (as shown by vocal posters in other threads in S&I), and therefore don't compress their ore for additional profit.
- Additionally, there is a barrier to entry for compression in high sec, which some miners assume is too high to enter the compressed market space
Therefore- the compressed market was severely hit post Crius. The mineral supply issue has always been a problem, but was being staunched by being able to import minerals via modules. The current state of supply in nullsec is imbalanced to the point that is going to continue to crash the high end markets- production has considerably slowed in null, reducing the relative demand for all minerals (but especially high ends). The difference between the CFC comments and the random empire alts in this thread is that we are making a concerted effort to create a local T1 marketplace in nullsec. We are not speaking as individual producers with the argument of "I can import minerals for my own production just fine, HTFU". The intent of Crius is to spread industry to create additional, localized, hubs- something that is not currently possible (logical) with the basic mineral supply mechanics. People that are crying GRR Goons need to realize that if changes are made to supply in null, that would only be beneficial to you, as you'd have more targets to come roam and kill. Otherwise, we could just keep living off of rental and moon goo income with no way for you to affect it.
I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2206
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:02:00 -
[207] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:this thread is reminding me though why it's so great to whip the lash at highsec
we gotta do that some more, it's been a little while since we ground our boot in highsec's face and taught them who their masters are
Will you come with the max yield exhumer bots that you run in dullsec?
I hope so, just got a new shipment of cats. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
103
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:02:00 -
[208] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? I think it's pretty clear that the only intelligent opposition to the idea comes from a bare handful of players, mostly Kenneth Feld and to a certain degree Steve. The majority of the opposition comes from the barely-literate crowd who have only really puzzled out that because goons want something, they oppose it.
Truth be told, people are lazy. This is why they refine instead of compress (and the associated hauling) despite the loss of income This is why many will ask for compression at a station Giving in to the lazy doesn't necessarily make things better
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:04:00 -
[209] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
How, exactly, did we "cry to CCP to get the system changed" in the first place? Changing compression wasn't our idea. It hit us pretty much out of left field, actually. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
780
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 18:09:00 -
[210] - Quote
Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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